Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Rejection slips

This is topic Rejection slips in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Rick Norwood (Member # 5604) on :

"The Mystic Chords of Memory" rejected by F&SF and Realms of Fantasy, off to Fantasy Magazine. I saw a way to make a paragraph on the first page stronger, and made that change.

I got a note from Gordon van Gelder and a form rejection from Shawna McCarthy. The form rejection got me to thinking -- how many different rejection forms to editors keep on their desk? This one said "Your work shows a great deal of promise, and we'd very much like to see more from you." Does everyone get that, or should I take it as a sign of encouragement? My hunch is that there is a form worse than that one, the 'Thank you for letting us look at your story but it is not for us. Good luck placing it elsewhere.' And, of course, a personal note is better.

What are your experiences with verious forms of rejection?

Posted by ChrisOwens (Member # 1955) on :

I know with Realms of Fantasy, you either get a Blue Form Of Death (straight rejection) or a Yellow Form Of Promise (almost, but not quite).

I believe, though I could be wrong, that if your story got to Gordon van Gelder, you sailed through the slush pile. If so, congrats! Most get a quick "no grab" from the assistant editor.

[This message has been edited by ChrisOwens (edited December 26, 2007).]

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

I believe that was one of the nicer rejections from RoF. I have been told (don't know of my personal knowledge because I don't submit to them--I know that I don't do the type story they like) that they do grade their rejections. And think about it, an editor never has to say they like you're work. I usually assume that if they say they want to see more that they at least saw something in it to like.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited December 26, 2007).]

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

In this day and age of computer-generated personal replies, I'd say the magazines are capable of printing out just about any rejection slips the editors want to.

I remember, back in the olden days when I submitted much more actively, I used to get two kinds of rejection slips from Analog---one with a space for a signature and room to type a name and address, one just printed. I think they're the only ones that ever came on "nice" stationery paper, for that matter. (I pulled out my file of old slips, recently accessable due to a recent cleaning-up project, to check. Hmm...got some interesting signatures along the way...)

Posted by DebbieKW (Member # 5058) on :

From what I've heard, agents don't have time to give different form rejects to different people. If they think you have promise, they might do a personalized letter. If they start the letter with "Dear Rick Norwood" instead of "Dear Author," then it's a personalize note and it generally means you're ahead of the game even if the rest of the note seems rather form-ish. Some agents send very nice form rejections, however, I don't think even they would request future material from everyone. I'm guessing you received a personalized note and that she meant what she said.

Edit: Opps, just realized you meant editors of magazines even if that's not all they do. Sorry. I don't know anything about how magazines go about it.

[This message has been edited by DebbieKW (edited December 26, 2007).]

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

I've found that the more personalized the rejection, regardless of the reason for the rejection, the more optimistic I feel about my writing. I'm pretty sure it's a sign that even if they didn't like my story, they at least took it seriously.

And Rick, it's a fine line between trolling and "funnin," and like anything whether something is funny or offensive depends on point of view. Which is something we, as writers, claim to understand. When a kid pushes over an old lady it might be funny to his friends, and offensive to the old lady. But, as you say, she ought to "grow a sense of humor."

Posted by First Assistant (Member # 3458) on :

Zero, this is my one warning on this subject. I locked the other topic for it's veering off topic, there will not be that many warnings again. Any further mention of said off-subject will be deleted.

If you are not adult enough to ignore an annoying post/poster, don't be so childish as to drag your problem throughout other topics.

[This message has been edited by First Assistant (edited December 26, 2007).]

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

I take it you're not Kathleen.

Posted by First Assistant (Member # 3458) on :

No. I'm not Kathleen. Second Assistant isn't either. Thus the "Assistant" tags.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Well, I'm in the dark...

Posted by Balthasar (Member # 5399) on :

Kathleen = good cop.

The Assistants = bad cops.

Posted by First Assistant (Member # 3458) on :

Not "The Assistants = bad cops". Just me. Second Assistant is more of a peacekeeper.

Now, please return to the original topic:

quote:

how many different rejection forms to editors keep on their desk? This one said "Your work shows a great deal of promise, and we'd very much like to see more from you." Does everyone get that, or should I take it as a sign of encouragement? My hunch is that there is a form worse than that one, the 'Thank you for letting us look at your story but it is not for us. Good luck placing it elsewhere.' And, of course, a personal note is better.
What are your experiences with verious forms of rejection?

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

I think it's time for me to take a vacation from this forum. Sorry for the off-topic post.

Posted by WouldBe (Member # 5682) on :

quote:
I remember, back in the olden days when I submitted much more actively, I used to get two kinds of rejection slips from Analog---one with a space for a signature and room to type a name and address, one just printed. I think they're the only ones that ever came on "nice" stationery paper, for that matter.

I just received an "encouraging" rejection from Stanley Schmidt on "nice" stationary. I was curious about him and found this interview of him.

I didn't realize he had a Ph.D. in physics. Since my story was based on speculative physics, I guess I'm lucky he bothered with a rejection.

Posted by Balthasar (Member # 5399) on :

quote:
Now, please return to the original topic:

I think I'll have to join JeanneT on vacation.

[This message has been edited by Second Assistant (edited December 27, 2007).]

Posted by First Assistant (Member # 3458) on :

Clearly, my attempt to return this topic to its original discussion has failed. I apologize, Rick Norwood, for derailing your topic. That was not my intention.

Posted by Second Assistant (Member # 3459) on :

Whether or not you agree with another poster - be it a fellow hatrack person, She Who Must Be Obeyed, or any of the assistants, try to remember the point of all of this, which is to work on our writing skills. Taking anything anyone says personally or name calling is not productive.

Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :

From the agents I've talked to most of them keep 10 or so form type letters. The "not right for me" is probably the most common one they send.

I've gotten everything from the photocopied check the box form from one of the fantasy world's top agent to detailed comments back. Needless to say, when asked at the next conference I saw her at, the agent with the detailed feedback remembered me and is willing to take a second look based on changes I've made since her comments - most of which were spot on.

Keeping fingers crossed as I'll be sending that one out again after the 1st.

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

Wouldbe--Was Stan's rejection personalized referencing items that would only be known if he read the story, or was it a general form rejection with signature?

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Going over some of the slips, or at least those with comments, I fear I did little to correct some problems---it was hard for me to come up with money for typewriter ribbons as often as the editors would've liked, for instance. (A moot point in these days of computers.)

I think some indicated problems in my writing have persisted to this day---for instance, I care about the characters I write about (some of the time), but apparently I can't make it come across to the slushpile readers. "Too slight," comes up too often.

Encouraging? Well, yes, mostly...a personal comment usually made me feel I was making progress. Helpful? Maybe...maybe if I'd been able to figure out how to take the help...

(One thing I regret now---I clipped each rejection slip together in one great pile as I got them. Now I don't remember which one goes with which story...)

Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :

Yeah, I guess I don't see much point in rewriting according to comments on the rejection slips either. I feel I'm unlikely to resubmit to the same pub, and an editor elsewhere might have a completely different take on it. On the other hand, I suppose if the comment makes me slap my forehead and say, "Doh!" I might rewrite to fix that glaring error or shortfall.

[This message has been edited by annepin (edited December 28, 2007).]

Posted by WouldBe (Member # 5682) on :

Spaceman,

It was signed by The Man and he said, "I rather liked your writing style" and suggested I try again with another story in the future.

I took it to be Stan, but no story element was mentioned, other than the style.

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

That's a positive sign. It's his minimal personalized rejection. If you get closer, he'll fill a page with story-specific comments.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Back in my more prolific days, judging by the signatures in my recent browse-through, I got several slips signed by "the Man," even when the Man wasn't Stan. I don't know whether this was any significance. (I do know I was an active letter-to-the-editor writer in those days, which may have made my name known to them enough to slap a personalized rejection on my bad manuscripts.)

[aside: one thing letter-writing, and letter-publishing, helped me realize was just how awful my off-the-top-of-my-head writing was. I cringed in embarrassment when I read them in print in the letter columns---and this was only the space of a few months. Thirty-plus years on it's even worse.]

Posted by Silver3 (Member # 2174) on :

Rejection slips depend a lot on the publication, but if you got a promising rejection slip from ROF, you're already ahead of 98% of the slush. Most people get the blue "you may have made grammar mistakes" form

Getting a rejection from Gordon Van Gelder, even if it's form, means you got past the slush reader--a feat in itself.

I'd suggest subbing the story to other pro markets

Posted by rickfisher (Member # 1214) on :

Doesn't getting a rejection from Shawna also mean you got past the slush reader (Doug Cohen)?

Posted by Silver3 (Member # 2174) on :

All the forms are signed by Shawna--so unless you have a handwritten note from her on the form, or some other means of confirmation (I think Doug emails you when he passes the story on to Shawna), you can't really tell anything from that.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Mmm...who signed my last slips?...let me see...damn tabletop is covered with garbage...ah! Here are the last two slips from F & SF, each signed by one John Joseph Adams, Assistant Editor...except for the titles, they're word for word the same.

I don't know if they're copyrighted material, but what they express seem so basic I'll chance it: "Dear Mr. Nowall: Thank you for submitting ["name of story"], but I'm going to pass on it. This tale didn't grab my interest, I'm afraid. Good luck to you with this one, and thanks again for sending it our way. Sincerely, [signature], John Joseph Adams, Assistant Editor."

I suppose, for the vast majority of stories, that's all you can say without expending a great deal of time and effort on it---which from their point of view is reasonable. But from my point of view, I weary of submitting-without-success.

Posted by Igwiz (Member # 6867) on :

Rick:

You seem to have set your sights high, and I laud you for that. I assume you are submitting your stories to numerous markets and venues, but you only mention F&SF, which is THE hardest market there is, and ROF, which is right up there. There are a lot of markets out there (says the guy who is still waiting to be published at all), and I'm certain that if you are getting yellow slips from F&SF, that you could get something published there.

Duotrope will spit out a whole list of markets that are Semi-Pro to Token. No, they aren't markets that you can get SFWA credits for, but they are markets none the less...

Of course, each writer has their standards. Me, I'm currently shopping out my first stories to various Pro and Semi-Pro markets, and if they get rejected, I plan to work my way down to the Token and Free markets. Hopefully, I'll retain enough dignity not to resort to the, "You pay us $5, and we'll probably post that stinkin' turd..." markets.

Best of luck to you, and Happy New Year.

[This message has been edited by Igwiz (edited December 31, 2007).]

Posted by oliverhouse (Member # 3432) on :

In December 2007, after our first issue, Flash Fiction Online received 158 submissions. So far this month, we've received 81 submissions (in eight days!). And nobody even knows who we are yet! (We're listed in Duotrope and Ralan and were highlighted in the Critters weekly, so we're not completely under a rock, but it's not like we're a household name, either.)

I'm writing a personal response to every author, and supplying critical material as well if I have any or if I've read the story myself, and I've got to tell you, that's a fair sight more time consuming than doing the reading and selection of stories. I don't even know if I'll be able to continue to handle it, but I'll go for as long as I can.

My point? If a little itty-bitty market like ours gets this many submissions, I'm amazed that JJA even has the time to sign his rejections.

Something else, too: I've rejected quite a few things already that are pretty good, and that I wouldn't mind seeing in print. They just don't fit what I'm looking for (e.g., unlike many literary markets, we emphasize plot and character and clarity over beautiful writing and the "high idea"). It certainly wouldn't hurt some of these writers to submit to other markets, and they could submit to a dozen others before their perfectly good story was even considered. So while it feels terrible to be rejected (and I have four stories gathering dust because I'm too lazy to get off the dime and re-submit them), it's at least in part a numbers game -- just keep submitting.

Having said all that, I'm still a rookie editor, so the thoughts here might be worth even less than you paid for them...

Regards,
Oliver

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

Aha! Now I know who to blame for my rejection from Flash Fiction Online.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited January 08, 2008).]

Posted by oliverhouse (Member # 3432) on :

And with whom does the blame for a rejection lie? <evil grin>

Kidding, of course. Didn't realize that JRT was you. Probably just as well, though -- anonymity is conducive to honesty. And for what it's worth, at FFO every story is read after all identifying marks have been stripped off of it, so I'm the only person who even has access to records saying that that was your submission.

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

I was kidding, of course.

I don't write much in the way of flash so you already have seen pretty much my full production in that department.

Posted by supraturtle (Member # 1518) on :

All you have to do is read the history of any established writer to realize rejections are part of the deal.
Take it, suck it up troop and carry on.
It can be hard to know the what and why of rejections... that's why we have Hatrack and so many other resources.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Back to the original, original question, Rick, if you received a rejection letter like that from REALMS OF FANTASY, then you really should send Shawna more stories. That rejection letter truly does only go to people she wants to see more work from. Shawna is saying that she (or her assistant) will watch for your return address on a submission envelope.

If I remember correctly, she has at least one other rejection form besides the standard one and the one you received, and it's an in-between form--encouraging, but more like "you should try this particular story with another editor."