Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Inadvertent Plageurism: Fact or Fable?

This is topic Inadvertent Plageurism: Fact or Fable? in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by jaycloomis (Member # 7193) on :

'Of course it's fact'
That's what you thought when you opened this post.
I was reading through my current piece a bit ago and realized something, and had to rub my eyes and look again. It's a fantasy story set in a completely different world from our own, and at one point the MC has to sneak into a tavern called the Dark Iron Pub.
Now, before I ditched it because I realized just how much of a cork it was in my creative river of wonder and beauty, I was an avid World of Warcraft player. Yes, I was caught in the horror that is MMORPG.
There is a specific title in the game, of a material you can gather in the Blackrock Mountain dungeons. The name of the material is Dark Iron -- something I've really only heard in WoW. (Not saying it doesn't exist elsewhere, but that's the only place I've heard it)
This plageruism wasn't planned, and I had no idea I was doing it, and it got me to thinking: just how often are our ingenious and original ideas not so original, and not so ingenious but simply creations of the hundreds of stories dumped into the creative stew of our right brain?
I remember I used to hate writing first-person. But then I read 'The Land that Time Forgot' by Edgar Rice Burroughs (fantastic book by the way) and I was suddenly compelled to write first-person. Does this happen to us all?
If we read a book and then sit down to write, do you think our writing style is affected by the book we just read? Turn on your light bulbs and drop your pride, because you know your ink has changed colors atleast once thanks to your favorite author.
-Jayson

[This message has been edited by jaycloomis (edited November 27, 2007).]

Posted by TaleSpinner (Member # 5638) on :

I think there's a difference between writing style and plagiarism.

My writing style, such as it is, has been evolving these last few months and yes, it has been influenced by favourite writers I've been reading during that time. That's okay, my style doesn't imitate any one of them but copies (sincere flattery) elements I like. It's still my own, same as every sax player has been influenced by, oh, Ben Webster or Stan Getz, yet still has his or her own unique style.

I believe it is possible to inadvertently copy someone else's plot or ideas, so I avoid reading stories that deal with themes in my WIPs, just to feel sure.

Hope this helps,
Pat

Posted by Lynda (Member # 3574) on :

When I'm writing a first draft of anything, I avoid reading anything in that genre, or with any similarities to it in any way, to avoid that very problem (not that I've had it in writing, but when I used to write music, I finished a really beautiful song and then heard a song on the radio that had nearly an identical phrase of melody - and I don't believe I'd heard that song before, but it really bothered me that such a thing happened. And that was around the time George Harrison was going through the lawsuit over "My Sweet Lord," which some other guy said HE'd written years before, IIRC.) With novels, it's easier to avoid such similiarities because books aren't playing in the background everywhere you go like music is.

I wouldn't consciously copy someone else's style. I've written enough that my style is my own now, but I don't read any fantasies while I'm writing mine. It's just a safety measure.

Lynda

Posted by jaycloomis (Member # 7193) on :

That's interesting that this can occur with music as well. That must be maddening! I know how frustrated I am when I come up with great ideas and then read a book and there's my idea, already taken.
-Jayson

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Well, I've had stuff from other works drift into my own stuff. In my current novel a stray bit of dialog from "Citizen Kane" drifted into an argument. I recognized it for what it was, even as I wrote it. (Maybe my character saw the movie, I thought.) It'll come out, assuming I ever get that far in the revisions.

I've had a couple of short stories, where I wanted to work out an idea that I knew used things from someone else's stuff, but the idea insisted on being written. I keep them in my files.

(Of course this excludes my Internet Fan Fiction, where I was parodying the work in question, the TV show and several other works along the way---that's my story and I'm sticking to it.)

[edited to korect a bizare mispelling]

[This message has been edited by Robert Nowall (edited November 24, 2007).]

Posted by RMatthewWare (Member # 4831) on :

Ideas can't be copyrighted. Text can. There are real plagiarists. Do a search on "How Opal Metha Got Kissed, Got Wild, and Got a Life". LittleBrown had to pull it from their shelves because all of the gross plagiarism. It was more embarrassing because the whole deal was 6-figure and the book was going to be made into a movie.

The author said she didn't realize she was doing it (yeah, when you copy word for word, I don't buy that). I think some of her buzz was she was young (I think about 19) and attended Yale.

So yeah, plagiarism is alive and well. Though, borrowing ideas isn't the same thing (the reason Christopher Paolini hasn't been sued).

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

I think we all borrow ideas, that's likely where we get our best ones.

But I think it's a function of how much we've read, not just volume but in kinds of things, how many new ideas we've encountered. The more we add to our pallet, the more colors we can blend into new ones to create our story.

In the case of Paolini, I don't think he's doing anything unethical, or even far distant from what we do. He's just using a palett that only has two colors, red and blue, star wars and lotr, so of course when he paints it's going to look purple.

He needs to leave Happy Valley Montana for an extended period, read a lot more, think about his plots more deeply, and plan his stories out in greater detail.

And then he's no different than we are. Except published.

[This message has been edited by Zero (edited November 24, 2007).]

Posted by Rick Norwood (Member # 5604) on :

Like the man said, plagarism is stealing words. As a teacher, when I grade an essay I always pick one well-written sentence to google. If it turns up, that essay gets a zero. If the same student does it twice, that student gets an F.

More common, I think, is violating trademark, which is what happens when you set a story in the World of Warcraft.

But, when it comes to ideas, "good artists borrow, great artists steal."

I've always tried to make my stories as original as possible. Maybe that's why so few of my stories sell. Most of the fiction I read in magazines has zero new ideas.

Posted by KStar (Member # 4968) on :

Recently, I wrote about half of the book that I'm working on.

I decided to take a little breather so I could approach it again with a fresh point of view. I read a book to pass my spare time... and I cannot, absolutely cannot, believe some of the similarities. Right down to phrases of dialog and some of the scenes which are so similar it's eerie. I feel guilty now, I have to go back to my story and change a ton of things at this point. Otherwise, it would look like I just straight copied it.

It's so strange to me that the author and I would think of such similar things. I almost want to write them a letter and ask if they want to hang out because we are totally on the same wavelength. Woe is me.

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

What book?

Posted by KPKilburn (Member # 6876) on :

It's funny that I ran across this post because this just happened to me. I had written some dialogue a few weeks ago where one character says, "You know if we go back out west it will get worse."

The other replies, "It already is worse."

I was watching Star Wars (Episode IV for you younger guys) and I realized that my dialogue was very similar to when Princess Leia says, "It could be worse." The creature growls and Han says, "It's worse." I was surprised that I had used similiar lines.

I had to have gotten my dialogue from that, but it never was a conscious decision to copy it. It wasn't that memorable of a line (like "The Force will be with you, always."), but apparently it was in the back of my mind and came out during my writing.

Like the others, I intentionally avoid reading anything that has the same ideas/themes that I'm writing about. I had my idea/article stolen once and it was an unpleasant experience for me. (Ideas of course can't be copyrighted).

So, I think that at some point, you will certainly mimic something you've read no matter how much you try to avoid it, but that doesn't necessarily equate to plagiarism (depends on what the lawyers say).

Posted by jaycloomis (Member # 7193) on :

That's funny, Kilburn. I think that kind of line is nice anyways, it's not too similar to the Star Wars line and has that little witty zing to it.
The 'Plageurism' word is used loosely in this post, mainly as the only way I could sum up this idea in one word. I wasn't intending it as a legal argument, but seeking out others who had this happen to them -- which it turns out, is quite a few people!
-Jayson

Posted by AstroStewart (Member # 2597) on :

Sometimes I think "inadvertent plagiarism" especially as it happens in dialogue isn't really plagiarism at all. When I need to create a dialogue between two people in a WiP I simply think about the kinds of conversations I hear in real life. I "borrow" from reality, like all writers do when we create worlds. Our own world is the only example of real experience we have, obviously.

The thing about real people talking, is that we HAVE been affected by movies, books, literature, etc. Without even knowing it, maybe you think you're quoting some witty thing your best friend said a week ago... but he was actually quoting his favorite character in a novel. Is that really plagiarism?

We pick up manners of speech from experience. Real life as well as movies / books. I don't think incorporating these things into our writing is plagiarism, unless it's intentional. Besides, very often, something we write ends up being similar to a movie/book we've read, but that's only because that story was also written someone who was listening to how people really talk. So once in awhile his writing and yours are bound to be similar.

For example, in my novel, I had a dialogue where one character says to the other. "It's worse than we thought." The other replies, "It always is." Do you think this is plagiarism? OK, of what? It's very similar to what KPKilburn just wrote? Does that mean I got it from Star Wars? The second time I went back and read it, I didn't even remember Star Wars, but I DID remember a line from Serenity (or possibly an episode of Firefly) where someone says something like "It's worse than you know" and Mal replies "it usually is."

Is this "inadvertent plagiarism?" I don't think so. I think that this is a case of many different sources capturing a similar, real-life pattern of speech for a witty/sarcastic personality, probably from real-world examples in the author's life.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I should have mentioned one thing that turned up (but didn't 'cause it just floated up out of the cesspool of my mind just as I read the above posts.) When I was partway into my recent novel, I watched a Japanese anime film---which had three or four of the same plot devices I'd just written about. I hadn't seen it before.

After some pondering, I decided to continue. They're all out of the common pool of ideas we all occasionally dip into and use. (Besides, everybody uses nanotechnology nowadays---and I'd already pencilled it in for playing it down.)

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

Re-using names is hardly something I think falls under the definition of plagarism. I would question calling a character Gandalf or Frodo. Even that wouldn't be plagarism, just questionable judgement.

I once unknowingly gave an important character the same name as a horse in one of Goodkind's novels. I'm not fond of his writing so I didn't realize it until a beta reader mentioned it. I considered changing the name and decided worrying about it was silly. So I didn't.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 25, 2007).]

Posted by Grovekeeper (Member # 5650) on :

I think that it can legitimately happen from time to time.

I was helping a friend playtest a module he'd written for a sciend fiction role-playing game he was developing. It was a very-well-written scenario, and it was very disturbing.

It was also almost exactly, right down to plot elements and spacecraft configuration, identical to the movie Event Horizon. Which neither of us had ever seen, but one of the other players had. Oops. He had to scrap that whole module.

-G

Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :

quote:
I was watching Star Wars (Episode IV for you younger guys) and I realized that my dialogue was very similar to when Princess Leia says, "It could be worse." The creature growls and Han says, "It's worse." I was surprised that I had used similiar lines.

Not really suprising. Some lines just have natural follow throughs which puts you in danger of a cliche'.

If someone says, It can't be worse - the logical tension creating responses is either "yes it can" or "It just got worse" or words to that effect.

Another example - from the movie Labyrinth and badly paraphrased.

Antagonist - So who are you liking my maze?
MC - Peice of cake.

What is the next obvious line???

David Bowie/ antagonist says: "Then let's see how you deal with this slice" and ups the stakes. He introduces a contraption of death into her section of the maze.

In my WIP - there is a point where a character could very easily (and amost did) say "Laugh it up, fuzzball" to my MC despite the fact he's not a Wookie - just a werelion. If I had used it, though I'd pay the respect to Star Wars in the next line expecting the exchange to get cut later and hoping on edit, I came up with something else.

Some phrases are just part of the culture. When that happens they more often than not become cliches.

quote:
It's so strange to me that the author and I would think of such similar things. I almost want to write them a letter and ask if they want to hang out because we are totally on the same wavelength. Woe is me

Sometimes there is only one way to get your MC out of the jam you put them in and other characters in similar situtations are going to do it too. Take the old being chased through the woods. At some point the potential victim is going to try to hide - in the bushes, behind a tree, in a cave, wherever - either the bad guy finds the victim and bad things happen or the bad guy is clueless and walks past.

examples of the last one, which is more common, that I've seen in the last week- BBC's Robinhood, SG-1 when Sam is hiding from the super soldier, LOTR - do you really think the Nasgul would ride by Frodo unless it was necessary for the plot?

Anyway, you get the point.

[This message has been edited by kings_falcon (edited November 27, 2007).]

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Y'know, out-and-out plagiarism is tempting---I've been at this quite a while now, without much luck, and would like to see my name on something before it's all over. If there was a lesser-known work by a lesser-known writer that you liked, you might be able to get it past the editors who don't recognize it. But it wouldn't be mine. And it'd get found out.

I saw, awhile ago during the summer, a guy on Letterman reading an excerpt from what might've been his biography or a biographical novel. (To my great regret, I didn't catch the name of the guy and haven't been able to identify it any other way---I want to buy the book if I can find it.) Anyway, he told the story of how, in a college class, instead of submitting something original, he wrote out the words to Simon and Garfunkel's "The Boxer" and handed them in. He figured the professor would hate it and say so, or just pass over it and pass him.

Instead, the professor praised it to the skies, and read it aloud in class---all of whom knew exactly where it came from. I don't know how it came out (I saw it on the TV in the break room at work, and my break was up), but I found it very funny. And true, too. You will be found out, sooner or later.

Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 2067) on :

It's entirely too late for me to read this whole thread, so I'll just ask:

Do you realize that writing about the protag sneaking into a tavern in a fantasy world is inadvertently plagiarizing LOTR?

Posted by Igwiz (Member # 6867) on :

My take is that there are only so many core concepts to write about (some say 9, some say 36), but infinite variations, situations, and such.

Where was the creativity in Baz Luhrmann's Romeo + Juliet? Not in the story or the dialogue. That was set in stone and used in the traditional play language. Nope, it was in the updated settings, the background music, the revised racial situations and roles. My favorite was the revised costume scene, where all the men were dressed in drag, down to Harold Perrineau's lipsticked Mercutio.

Was this plagiarism? I don't believe it was. I just think it was just an unveiled attempt to be creative in bringing a tried and true story up to date. They didn't steal Shakespeare's words, concepts, and scene vehicles and then dedice to call it "Frank and Ethel hook up, get caught, and then decide to snuff it."

Now, the Opal Metha thing was, in my opinion, the definition of plagiarism. I'm really curious how this all played out. I wonder if she was writing some kind of copycat fanfic and then thought she could get into Harvard with it. Who knows. Not the way to start a writing career, that's for sure.

Big difference in my opinion...

Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 2067) on :

But Romeo and Juliet is a bit hard to use as an example. It's a play. It's MEANT to be done by different groups across the world. It's intended to be adapted to local themes and traditions, and in my opinion people who still make medieval versions aren't doing it justice.

And there's also a big difference between unintentional plagiarism and an adaptation or homage.

Posted by Corky (Member # 2714) on :

quote:
Do you realize that writing about the protag sneaking into a tavern in a fantasy world is inadvertently plagiarizing LOTR?

This sounds like the people who think if you write a retelling of a bible story you are plagiarizing the bible.

In the first place, the only tavern in LOTR was the Prancing Pony, and the hobbits did not sneak in. If by "protag" you mean Strider, he didn't sneak in either. Barliman Butterbur was totally aware of their presences in his tavern.

In the second place, even if someone in LOTR had sneaked/snuck into the tavern, just because someone in another story does that, too, it doesn't mean the second author is plagiarizing LOTR.

Plagiarism involves taking actual expressions, sentences, paragraphs, pages, etc from another writer's work, sort of like quoting someone but not indicating that it's a quote and not saying whom you're quoting--letting people believe the words came from you.

Using someone else's ideas may be borrowing (or, as some put it, stealing), but it is not plagiarism. Ideas are not protected by copyright law. Expressions, sentences, paragraphs, pages, complete stories are.

Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 2067) on :

First off, it was just a bit of a joke... MOST modern fantasy takes from LOTR.

Secondly, The protag is Frodo, and was only ever Frodo. And HE snuck into the tavern. He just did it out in the open. Using a fake name isn't exactly an honest way of gaining entry...

Posted by Corky (Member # 2714) on :

Oh, I see.

I just didn't want to see anyone accusing someone of plagiarism when it wasn't that at all.

There are Mormons who have accused Orson Scott Card of plagiarizing the Book of Mormon when he wrote the Homecoming books, which told me they didn't have the first idea of what plagiarism really is.

There was a short discussion on the Speculations website in the chat room several years ago about how our own KDW caught a real plagiarist. Someone had sent an ANALOG story by Geoffrey Landis in to a small press magazine, and they didn't recognize it. KDW did, and let people know. I think the plagiarizer was some guy in prison somewhere. So it does happen.

Posted by KStar (Member # 4968) on :

zero- Twilight

Posted by Corky (Member # 2714) on :

Ooh! That's got to be frustrating, K Star.

Posted by RMatthewWare (Member # 4831) on :

I think its okay to reuse certain conversations if its obvious you're doing it, and it is in a parody format. Examples:

I read a book where a character kept saying "Inconceivable". At the end of the scene, another character says, "You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means". It was an obvious tip of the hat to Princess Bride, which made it even funnier.

and

Tuesday's episode of NCIS, a character quotes the Tommy Lee Jones scene from Fugitive about having to search every hen house, out house, dog house, etc. He does it in a very over the top way, and after finishing another character says "The Tommy Lee Jones speech again. Do you have to do that every time we have a fugitive on the loose?" Again, they gave credit to the original, which made it funny.

You can also borrow concepts and inventions from other authors. A big part of the plot to Ender's Game revolved around an invention called the 'ansible' which it made it possible to send transmissions to any corner of the universe in real time, rather than having to wait days or even years for a response. In the book, OSC credits a 20th century writer with the invention of the term.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Talking about "Romeo and Juliet" reminds me to remind y'all that Shakespeare stole the plots of nearly all his plays---or, more politely, took a well-known story and gave it Shakesperian depth and breadth and dialog and soliloquy. Also there were no copyright laws to worry about in those days. (I think "The Tempest," and maybe one other, were wholly original in plot.)

I thought the "ansible" was Ursula K. Le Guin's creation---if anybody else created it, I didn't hear. Besides that, there's hardly any familiar science fiction term you can use that wasn't used first by Jack Williamson.

Strider was hardly using his real name when he took a seat in the Prancing Pony, either...

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

My rule is if it isn't broken then don't fix it, if the dialog is witty, or interesting, or particularly fitting then great.

But if it's worn-out, old, overused, contrived sounding and cliche then you'd probably better re-write it. But I never worry about that until I've finished the book, taken a break, and begun re-writing phase.

Posted by Corky (Member # 2714) on :

It is also my understanding that Ursula K. Le Guin is responsible for the ansible.

("responsible for the ansible"--there's a "figure of speech" term for that, sort of like alliteration, where the sounds are the same at the beginning, but I can't remember what it is)

Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 2067) on :

Robert: Except for "robotics"

[Random Asimov reference for the day]

Corky: Assonance? Or is that just vowel alliteration? Internal rhyme? Iunno...

Posted by JBaird (Member # 7280) on :

I have had a run in with what I "have" to consider inadvertent plagiarism or I will go insane. Since about 1993 I have ran a role playing game based in a universe that is being invaded from the past. Basically a group of intelligent dinosaurs are trying to escape their demise by terraforming the future to their needs. To accomplish this task they are opening space/time rifts and sending through dinosaurs and other creatures to kill off the human pests that inhabit the future. I have several hundred pages of notes on this story and have written up parts of it into stories and a couple chapters of a novel. A few years ago I put up alot of this information on a web page and over the years probably 50-60 people have come in and out of this game.

Earlier year I was previewing a new Television show that was coming out of England called "Primeval". I noticed that it had some similarities to my game.

Here are the similarities

The wife of the main protagonist in primeval is named Helen Carter.

The name of the wife of the main protagonist in my story was Heather Cruz.

The first name of the government stooge who ran the program looking into dinosaur attacks was James in Primeval.

The first name of the government stooge who ran the program looking into the dinosaur attacks in my work was James.

In both works the main protagonists are palaeontologists (not surprising due to the subject matter).

In my work the first creature seen was a Gorgonopsid with yellow and black markings

In primeval the first creature seen was a guess what with guess what color markings.

I have to consider any of the similarities my own fault. I left the story idea and written portions such as journal entries of characters etc on the web page for several years. While invasions from the past or future or however primeval is going to handle this (the show hasn't came out and said it is an invasion yet) are common I am mortified by the similarities.

It isn't that the idea is the same that bothers me it is the fact that character names are so close and so is a bit of the action.

Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 2067) on :

Horrified? Hell, this could be a paycheck! Hell, just post a blog and spoil the plot and prove that they're stealing it from you

I'm no lawyer or anything, but plagiarism IS illegal...

Posted by RMatthewWare (Member # 4831) on :

quote:
I thought the "ansible" was Ursula K. Le Guin's creation

I knew someone else 'invented' it, but I couldn't remember who.

Yep, Bill Shakespeare borrowed a lot, I knew that.

I'm reading Magyk by Angie Sage and there are a lot of 'borrowed' materials from Harry Potter. I suppose its okay because they have the same publisher. Among the more glaring things are the rotating staircase in the wizard's headquarters and a character named Trelawney. There's nothing illegal (and perhaps nothing wrong either) in those things, but to me it seems to be a bit soon to start borrowing something that close. I'm not saying Rowling ever created anything original, but that doesn't give anyone license to copy either.

Posted by JBaird (Member # 7280) on :

I doubt it could be a paycheck as all they have to do is change the outcome. However if they do not change the outcome this is what will happen in the next season.

They will discover there is a bio-technological aspect to the creatures that are invading. Basically they will discover biotech of one sort or another on and controlling the creatures. They will be contacted by Humans from the future that are fighting the time war.

They may also find out that humans are helping the invaders and possibly find out about alternate universes with different outcomes.

So you heard it here first.

Posted by RMatthewWare (Member # 4831) on :

There are pretty specific criteria for plaigerism. If they do steal enough of your material, and you can prove it, then I'd consider a law suit. You deserve pay for your work.

Posted by JBaird (Member # 7280) on :

The problem is the show is probably changed enough not to be considered plagerism. Those few things that are the same bother me but in reality they aren't enough to sue anyone. I fully and truely feel they either saw the idea on the website or heard it from someone who played in one of the games but it is different enough that I doubt anything can be done. The one thing that gives me comfort is the fact that someone felt my ideas were good enough to copy.

Posted by RMatthewWare (Member # 4831) on :

You should write a script for them. Send it in with a note saying, "Glad you liked the idea enough to use it."