Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Internal monolog

This is topic Internal monolog in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Rick Norwood (Member # 5604) on :

I've been trying to learn from writers such as Lois McMasters Bujold, who rely heavily on internal monolog. What format do you like?

The wind was chill. Joe thought, I wish I had a coat.

The wind was chill. Joe thought, "I wish I had a coat."

The wind was chill. I wish I had a coat.

Posted by lehollis (Member # 2883) on :

I prefer, and use, the first method. I learned it from OSC.

Here is what I do. The first time it's a thought, I use a tag. Then, after that I omit tags as long as their in the same paragraph.

The wind was chill. Joe thought, I wish I had a coat. I'm freezing my tush off out here.

So the first tag explains the jump to first person, so as to not confuse our delicate readers. Then it's unnecessary.

I've seen Card do this a few times, in a few different books, so it's good enough for me

The use of quotes for internal thoughts bugs me to no end.

I've seen and used the third one rarely. It works, but I think the writer needs to establish that they're THAT deep into the character first. I think it require a professional touch.

Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :

I, too, would lean towards the first.

I've also seen it successfully done in italics. Something like:

The wind was chill. Joe wrapped his arms around himself. I wish I had a coat.

I think it needs something like the second sentence to pull the focus from a description of the wind and closer to Joe.

Posted by HuntGod (Member # 2259) on :

Italics work fine if your only dipping into thoughts occasionally, but they become distracting if you spend any significant time in the POV's head.

I too like the italics for the occasional dip, it provides a nice visual shift as well.

Posted by hoptoad (Member # 2145) on :

I much much much prefer this done with italics as mentioned above.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

If you are clearly in Joe's point of view, and you're telling his story in third person, anything you put in first person would have to be his thoughts and so italics aren't necessary.

After all, unless someone is sending thoughts into Joe's mind, there is no one else those thoughts could belong to. (And if someone is sending thoughts into Joe's mind, that would be a good time to use italics.)

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

None of the above.

The chill wind had Joe wishing for a coat.

Internal monolog all in 3rd person with more efficient sentence structure.

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

Or, Joe wished for a coat to keep out at least some of the chill wind.

Posted by hoptoad (Member # 2145) on :

KDW: point taken

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited September 27, 2007).]

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I'm with Spaceman. This doesn't seem like the kind of thing that needs an internal monologue.

I love the idea that internal thoughts in 3PL don't need italics, and I've written that way, but as soon as an editor gets his/her hands on them they italicize them for me. (ie after I make a sale) So now I've gone back to italicizing them.

Posted by ChrisOwens (Member # 1955) on :

I think if a tag must be used I'd prefer it after: I wish I had a coat, Joe thought.

Posted by Rick Norwood (Member # 5604) on :

In my most recent story, I went with the first. But when I read Bujold, and some others, they do it so effortlessly that you are in the character's mind without any introduction. Of course, telling the reader what the character is thinking works, too, but when an author pulls it off, putting the reader inside the character's head is so excellent I want to learn how to do it.

Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :

So... how does Bujold do it?

Posted by AstroStewart (Member # 2597) on :

I don't like internal monologue that requires a POV shift. Why not:

The wind was chill, and sent a shiver up Joe's spine. He wished he had a coat.

Assuming 3PL point of view, I like it to be done like the above, instead of switching tenses and using italics (my 2nd favorite).

Now if the entire narrative is 1st person, I'm a fan of the 3rd option you showed, or, if not that, italicizing internal monologue.

Posted by dee_boncci (Member # 2733) on :

I would go with:

The wind was chill. Joe wished he had a coat.

given that example. If I was composing it, I'd do something like:

An icy wind blew across the road. Joe wished he had a coat.

If Joe's thoughts were more complex, I'd consider using OSC's suggestion:

Joe greeted the wind with a silent curse. I should have brought a coat. This is stupid. Why am I the one who always has to go out after the boneheaded dog anyway? It's not even my dog. I don't like it, and it doesn't like me. Good thing she's the one with all the money, or I'd send her lazy butt out here to find it herself. Etc.

But, in the end, I's still probably take something like the preceding paragraph and cast it in third person (given the overall POV is 3rd).

My personal preference is to reserve italics for recalled dialogue. Using italics for thoughts implicitely creates distance in the non-italicized narrative, limiting how close of a third person voice can be achieved (without using gobs of italics).

[This message has been edited by dee_boncci (edited September 29, 2007).]

Posted by lehollis (Member # 2883) on :

Personally, I thought we were commenting on the format, not on that exact sample. I agree that particular sample is weak for a first person internal monologue, but I don't think that was the point since it's an example. Or did I miss something?

Posted by debhoag (Member # 5493) on :

No, Lehollis, I think you are right on the money, although it is awefully fun to watch how a thread can take on a life of it's own.

Posted by lehollis (Member # 2883) on :

Thanks, Deb! Though, I was actually just pondering why I didn't comment on the sample and just on the format. It's perfectly fine if a thread evolves, in my book.

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

I would do it exactly like Dee. But if I was going to make it feel more like an internal monologue, so to speak, I might opt to use what I would call understood first person, because I omit the pronoun because I find it distracting.

Joe shivered in the chilly wind. A coat would be nice.

Posted by WouldBe (Member # 5682) on :

I have a tricky bit in a novel I'm working on. One major character has dual consciousness. So in a room with other people present, she will have internal dialog, while having dialog with other characters, some of which might have internal monologue. If I used italics, a tenth of the novel would be italicized. So, internal dialog is quoteless and tagged. Internal monologue of other characters is italicized. There is minimal internal monologue of the dually conscious character, which I italicize. (It has special properties for this character.)

[This message has been edited by WouldBe (edited October 01, 2007).]

Posted by lehollis (Member # 2883) on :

quote:
I would do it exactly like Dee. But if I was going to make it feel more like an internal monologue, so to speak, I might opt to use what I would call understood first person, because I omit the pronoun because I find it distracting.
Joe shivered in the chilly wind. A coat would be nice.

Actually, I tend to do that a bit, too. I reserve the whole first person monologue for when I am very deep, and I introduce it with a "he thought" style of tag, first. I would only do that once or twice in a novel, and be very careful with it.

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

Sorry to disagree with Kathleen, but I do consider that a sort of PoV shift since it goes from 3rd person to essentially 1st person. So I like to use italics. Otherwise it looks like authorial intrusion to me. Just my opinion.

Posted by rickfisher (Member # 1214) on :

Hmm . . . it can't be a POV shift, because that refers to changing which person/entity you're dipping into the consciousness of. It can be considered a shift of person, but it isn't, really, any more than quoted dialogue would be. I can see your point, there, in a way--the dialogue has typographic indicators, whereas the unitalicized thought quote doesn't. But that's only because there is no rule requiring that a typographical indicator be used in that circumstance. Personally, I find the italics really annoying (usually), and I rarely find it possible to misread the unitalicized version, so that's what I stick with, when I use it.

But in general, I keep it in third person. I've always thought that first person thoughts were often unrealistic, as people don't usually think in words, or at least not in complete sentences. They USE words in their thinking, but there's a bunch of other stuff thrown in, too. As a result, a third-person description of thoughts and feelings is generally more accurate, closer to "real thoughts," and therefore deeper penetration than the first person internal monologues (regardless of italics).

Take, for example, "He was cold," or "He wondered what would happen next," or even something extended, like, "What the hell was going on? He'd never seen the woman before, and even if he had he wouldn't have been able to chase her down, knock her to the ground, and rob her the way she said. Couldn't everyone else see he only had one leg? How come everyone believed what she said?"

"I'm cold" seems the less effective choice to me, unless it's a surprise to the person, rather than an open window into their state of being. "I wonder what will happen next?" is passable, but I prefer it in third person, especially since most people, wondering that, do NOT think of the words. And the last one: "What the hell is going on? I've never seen the woman before, and even if I had I wouldn't have been able to chase her down, knock her to the ground, and rob her the way she says. Can't everyone else see I only have one leg? How come everyone believes what she says?" Who would ever think that string of words without actually saying them?

Given all that, I'll admit that some writers do the first person thing so well, e.g., Card (who doesn't use italics, by the way), that it really does feel like deeper penetration. But generally, when I see it, it distances me from the characters thoughts rather than bringing me closer to them.

[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited October 03, 2007).]

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

You're right that it is a shift in person and not a shift in PoV. And I dislike a shift in person even more than a shift in PoV. In intense scenes, I use the technique very frequently. But since I agree that many people don't think in sentences (which makes me wonder why I do) I tend to use sentence fragments.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited October 04, 2007).]