Edit for smiley:
But I'm trying to figure out--she is obviously hurt (arrow in back=bad) but can you swim with an arrow in your back? This is a very cold mountain lake? How would that affect the bleeding? It didn't hit any vital organs, obviously. How likely would an arrow by to come out? Or would it have to be cut out later? How much pain would she be in. She will probably lose consciousness later, but I need her to swim at least most of the way across a lake (under water at least most of the way).
I would like the arrow to stay in and be cut out later. Would it have to be cut out, do you think? Pushed through? (I'm visualizing it being kind of near her side)
I try to make these things plausible, but I don't know anyone who has ever been shot in the back by an arrow to consult on this one. *laughs*
Any thoughts?
I would have trouble believing that a normal person who had been hit in the back with an arrow would be able to swim halfway across a lake. Even if it doesn't hit a vital organ, the thing is that swimming works the large muscle groups in your back. Between that, loss of blood, and cold water I just don't see it happening. The only real question is whether she drowns, bleeds to death, or dies of hypothermia. In fact, a cold lake on its own is a dangerous place to send a character.
If the arrow is protruding from her, I'd have a hard time believing she could swim. Think of the drag it would create in the water, and how much pain it would cause! The blood loss would also be difficult to cope with. She'd also run the risk of having the arrow bury itself deeper in her flesh.
As for removing it, if it has a barbed end, it's usually better to push it through, cut off the end, and then pull it out, or cut off the feathered end and push the entire shaft through. If it's not so shallow maybe she could just pull it out, but it would likely rip more muscle coming out.
Having never been pierced by an arrow, this is all speculative, though I did study some human anatomy in college. I will say, though, that as part of an operation my mom had to have a tube stuck in her lower back to drain fluid from an internal wound. She could not sleep--she was in utter agony, and said it felt as if someone was stabbing her with a knife repeated. Granted, that was probably deeper than an arrow, but just to give you a bit of perspective...
[This message has been edited by annepin (edited September 13, 2007).]
Some arrows can be pulled out, but--as I understand it--it will be among the most painful thing most people experience. Pushing through might be better, but that depends on what it might push through. If it has to go through her lung or a major blood vessel, it's a bad idea. I think most doctors would try to remove it with as little cutting as possible.
Swimming will use the muscled on the back, making it hurt much worse. Each movement means that little blade is working against the meat inside her, in an already injured area.
Working the back muscles (swimming) will make it bleed more. Some arrows are designed to make the cut worse, so more blood will be lost. My grandfather showed me a X shaped arrow like that once, used for hunting Elk. The X is if you're looking head-on at the arrow, and it's designed to spiral as it enters (the blades of the X are angled such.) That arrow won't come out easy.
How big is the lake. Swimming is tiring. Losing blood sucks up energy. Hitting Cold water saps energy. So she has three big energy-sucking factors. She won't be swimming far, realistically, unless you've shown me she is some kind of Olympic medalist or super human.
I'd suggest you write that she broke off the majority of the shaft as she plunged into the water, it will create less drag and cause much less discomfort as she tries to swim.
Thw swim itself should be described as agonizing and torturous, every stroke tearing the muscles around the arrow head further.
Hypothermia is also going to be an issue if she is in the water for very long, I'd wiki hypothermia in the water for exact times for onset.
So long as you relate to the reader just how arduous this feat is you will be ok. That said you will also be indicating that your protag is capable of this feat so make sure this is consistent for her in the rest of the novel.
Running for your life is a strong motivator, but to live through that ordeal is going to tax even the hardiest person.
Well, to explain at least in part how I am going to explain her surviving this horrible ordeal--and it is supposed to be something she barely survives--she is native to the mountains and swimming in cold lakes is normal for her. This is a lake she swam in as a child. It is mentioned that at one point she hides behind the rock that children normally jump off of.
It is summer, but I've been in high mountain lakes in the summer and they're still fairly cold. Still I think this will help her survival be more understandable. She should be able to survive at least a couple of hours as far as the water temperature is concerned, I believe, going by what I've read. But that isn't taking into consideration injuries.
Breaking the arrow off as she hits the water helps. I coundn't see how she could swim with the arrow still in her.
One of my questions--that I didn't mention--is where would be the best place for the arrow to hit her? Obviously this is going to be agonizing, but I do want her survival to be believable for a strong healthy young woman.
I was thinking just below the rib cage near on the side might be good, but I could easily be wrong. As has been pointed out, there are a lot of vital organs there that can't be hit. Would in the shoulder be better? I wanted to avoid saying the chest area since a pierced lung would be highly problematical.
It will be a medieval type arrow. However there were a number of different medieval arrows, including bodkin and barbed. I'll probably go with the assumption it was bodkin which is what was used at the Battle of Crecy.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited September 13, 2007).]
To get away, or for the pursuer to think she is dead?
If the latter, she's better-off submerging and playing possum at the bottom for as long as she can. Conserve energy and not make a ripple to give herself away.
Edit: And yes swimming with an arrow in you--definitely painful. Shoulder sounds like it might be a good choice. She isn't wearing armor which (games aside) does not make for good swimming.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited September 13, 2007).]
SingingDog and HalfLoaf watched the fletched end of the arrow plow a tiny bow-wave as it moved away through the still waters. When it finally disappeared into a forested bay on the opposite shore, HalfLoaf spoke 'She's dead. Let's go.'
Edit for smiley:
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited September 14, 2007).]
Just a possible out, could also make for some nice tension as she hears the pursuers searching the waterline for her body. Maybe the small hollow is occupied by a beaver or other animal and it's not happy about sharing the space.
Good luck with the scene.
http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/hypothermia.htm
Cold water is truly nasty stuff. Depending on how cold the water is and how much body fat your character has, things can start to go badly within the space of minutes...
Combine the effects of cold (possible hypothermia) with oxygen deprivation from swimming underwater and bloodloss then she would rapidly become immobile. If you're kind then adrenaline may compensate for some of this.
Nonetheless, I would recommend brains over brawn in this situation.
I grew up on the coast, in on and under water. Without the aid of swimming gear like flippers and suchlike, you can't swim very far under water (try swimming about 25m underwater). However in fresh water buoyancy will at least be less of a problem than in salt water...
PS: There are some interesting articles in Wikipedia regarding arrows and their removal.
[This message has been edited by Satyre (edited September 14, 2007).]
The cold water may slow the bleeding a little, but the shock of the injury, the blood loss, and the cold, would probably be enough to kill the person. Shock can kill.
If your character HAS to be hit with an arrow, I'd have it hit in the leg. If it has to just LOOK like your character was hit, you can have the person hit the water, the arrow follow but not hit her, but have a witness THINK she was hit and killed.
quote:
SingingDog and HalfLoaf watched the fletched end of the arrow plow a tiny bow-wave as it moved away through the still waters. When it finally disappeared into a forested bay on the opposite shore, HalfLoaf spoke 'She's dead. Let's go.'
Of course, people survived being hit by arrows. They did so frequently and still do so occasionally in hunting accidents. As with being shot, it depends a lot on the type of arrow and where you are hit. And they do all kinds of things including riding and running as has been pointed out.
Swimming would be painful, not impossible. The water during the summer would be in the 50s which is surviveable for several hours, uninjured. I'm not sure how being injured and losing blood would affect that, nor am I sure how the cold water would affect blood loss.
People did diving before there was diving gear such as flippers. I suggest checking out how people traditionally dove for pearls as an interesting subject. You can dive without diving gear in both salt and fresh water. This, of course, is fresh water.
I mentioned that there are places she can come up where she would be hidden, including behind a large outcropping. She couldn't swim all the way across under water without coming up for air, obviously.
Edit: The easiest solution is for the arrow to only slash her shoulder rather than stay in it. Then I don't have to deal with the fact that it would have to be terribly difficult to swim underwater with an arrow actually stuck in you and that I honestly don't know how likely a medieval arrow would be to break. I have no clue how likely that would be.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited September 15, 2007).]
was to show that I was playing... Sorry if you thought I was being boorish or ill-mannered. I wasn't really helping was I?It is hard to swim so deep in the water that there is no sign on the surface, especially with your lungs full of air. The alternative is to slowly release your breath, again, pretty obvious from the surface. It is hard for someone who is in full health. The added strain of the wound makes it, in my opinion, unlikely at best. The injury and arrow is not as much of an obstacle to staying submerged as the adrenalin, which courses through the body and causes it to burn up oxygen faster than ususal. She would expend more energy and she would not get as far as she might normally. In my opinion, she would have to head for cover almost immediately and come up for air before heading for the next bit of cover. Are there reeds or overhanging trees or other vegetation around? Perhaps there are rocks or undercut embankments nearby. Are there dead bodies in the water? You mentioned that it is a medieval society, are there boats or jetties associated with the village? .
I really think she would be more likely to survive an encounter if she hid first and fled later.
On another note, surely she is reluctant to just flee her village before she knows whther her family or friends are okay or not. To me, that seesm a powerful, emotional reason for her to remain close by. The urge to be a witness in behalf of your loved-ones is a powerful instinct.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited September 18, 2007).]
quote:Oops, sorry to not have yelled at you. I misread the name.
hey that was me, not debhoag. Didn't want her to get the wrap for anything that I said. The smiley was to show that I was playing... Sorry if you thought I was being boorish or ill-mannered. I wasn't really helping was I?
It is hard to swim so deep in the water that there is no sign on the surface, especially with your lungs full of air. The alternative is to slowly release your breath, again, pretty obvious from the surface. It is hard for someone who is in full health. The added strain of the wound makes it, in my opinion, unlikely at best. The injury and arrow is not as much of an obstacle to staying submerged as the adrenalin, which courses through the body and causes it to burn up oxygen faster than ususal. She would expend more energy and she would not get as far as she might normally. In my opinion, she would have to head for cover almost immediately and come up for air before heading for the next bit of cover. Are there reeds or overhanging trees or other vegetation around? Perhaps there are rocks or undercut embankments nearby. Are there dead bodies in the water? You mentioned that it is a medieval society, are there boats or jetties associated with the village? .I really think she would be more likely to survive an encounter if she hid first and fled later.
On another note, surely she is reluctant to just flee her village before she knows whther her family or friends are okay or not. To me, that seesm a powerful, emotional reason for her to remain close by. The urge to be a witness in behalf of your loved-ones is a powerful instinct.
I mentioned that there was someplace that she could hide and come up for air. But you are making a number of assumptions that are things I didn't say.
I didn't say that she immediately fled as soon as the attack started. I didn't go into the plot. She fled because she knew her family was dead and the village was totally overwhelmed. She will still later feel bad about fleeing, but considering that she still barely survives, it was the only thing she could possibly do.
As far as seeing what happened being a motivator, you may be right that it is a strong motivator. So is having someone shooting arrows into you. I question which is stronger.
I don't agree that it is that hard either to swim underwater or to do so without being noticed. I grew up around water swimming a lot. We swam underwater all the time with no difficulty and I've had plenty of people swim up from underneath me to grab me playing around as a teen. It's really not that hard.
Having an arrow in your shoulder would no doubt make it harder, but if you've spent time around deep water you know that you can in fact dive quite deep with no trouble. Perhaps when you've swam you didn't do much under water swimming.
I also mentioned specifically that there was a large outcropping she could get behind to at least get a breath of air and hide briefly, but when you're bleeding seriously especially in 50ish degree water--typical in summer for a mountain lake--where hypothermia is a definite consideration, hiding for very long isn't going to be your first choice.
In a lake surrounded by pine forest as this is, a large log floating that she can use to hide while she gets another breath would also be quite plausible.
I'm not sure what you mean by that she should hide first and flee later. If you mean hide in a village that is being burned, no I don't think so. If you mean hide in the water, 1. she is bleeding and would bleed to death and 2. she would get hypothermia even if she weren't injured. She could, of course, try to flee on foot to hide in the nearby forest, but fleeing on foot from mounted troops--and while injured at that but even uninjured you don't outrun horses-- seems quite implausible to me.
And yes, they do know she is there. She just killed one of them with her own bow.
Edit: I hadn't decided on how this would go when I posted. You can probably guess from my comments that I have pretty much now decided. And I do appreciate the suggestions and comments. Many of them were quite helpful in clarifying my thinking. I decided that she would be able to swim underwater enough to reach the far shore, hiding several times along the way. They look briefly for her body, but she has come up out of sight and they believe that she is dead because they saw that she was hit. There is one other survivor of the attack in the nearby forest who will help her. The arrow has completely pierced her shoulder and will be quite an issue in their survival.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited September 18, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited September 18, 2007).]
quote:
How deep is said lake? If it isn't too deep (6-10 ft) then a simple solution would be to have her walk along th bottom of the lake.
What I'm amazed by in reading some of the responses is the power of adrenaline. Stabbed people running, people with arrows walking hundreds of miles... fascinating! It's said that the Japanese 12th cent warrior Benkei fought on to defend his master even after being struck by eleven arrows. Of course, the story is steeped in mythology, but maybe it was actually possible?
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited September 18, 2007).]
'Slow motion Walter, that fire engine guy.'
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited September 18, 2007).]
I thought "dirty deeds done dirt cheap" was "birdy wees on the thunder gees" which never seemed to make sense to me.
[This message has been edited by lehollis (edited September 18, 2007).]