Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Beating a 'lazy' horse

This is topic Beating a 'lazy' horse in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :

I couldn't say dead, or even lame. Anyway, more on F&F...

I've just been perusing the F&F forums and have noticed something quite alarming:

When someone DOES submit a story for critique, they get a LOT of critique of the first thirteen but very FEW offers to critique the entire story, even when they request readers.

Why?

Do our newbies lack confidence in their critiquing ability?

Don't!!

First, in order to become a good critiquer and reap the benefits to your own writing that critiquing can give, you have to actually DO some critiques. Show how grateful you are to be a member of a writer's forum that DOES NOT REQUIRE you to give a certain number of critiques before you can get one by giving more than you get.

Second, if you're just starting out, the best way to approach a critique is to do a 'careful read.' That means that you read the story and note places where you were confused, bored, disinterested, annoyed, wowed, delighted, etc. To go one step further, just jot down WHY you felt confused, bored, disinterested, annoyed, wowed, delighted, etc.

Third, if you are offering a story for critique, BE SURE TO MAKE THAT PLAIN IN YOUR POST! Genre, Word count, "I'm looking for readers for the whole story..."

But GET CRITIQUING! GET WRITING! GET POSTING!!

Please.

Posted by cvgurau (Member # 1345) on :

I always believed that my critiquing skills were quite lacking. Maybe because those muscles have atrophied from disuse.

Thanks for the exercise hints.

Posted by franc li (Member # 3850) on :

I guess my main problem is I'm not much in the same genre as others and most of their genres don't appeal to me. So why am I here? Because OSC rocks my world. But I hardly read any other sci fi, sadly. And I really have a hard time with fantasy. Okay, that's not entirely true. I read my mother's fantasy epic. Well, if you don't count Chronicles of Narnia. So, I guess I'd say I like Russian novels, Allegorical fantasy, historical autobiography... I don't know. Genre probably isn't important. If you have good characterization, thrilling action, and a compelling plot I should be okay with it. But if you have those things, you probably don't need me critiquing you. How about if you have two of those three things, maybe I can help you with the third?

I wrote something very funny last night. I find I write much better not in my Main Character's voice. This is a problem.

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

I find that if the problem is there in the first 13, it will be there through the rest of the story.

That is, when I've already said such-and-such about the first 13, why waste my time saying it over and over again about the rest of the text? Anyway, according to OSC, if you change page 4 and then change page 1, you're going to have to change page 4 *again* because of the page 1 alteration. Better to get page 1 working first.

Posted by pantros (Member # 3237) on :

I find F&F to be a good resource to use once in a while to develop the skills of starting a story.

But, I also find that most of the advice is recycled and not always given with full knowledge. People forget that they are giving their opinion and think they are stating facts when most of the time, they are giving opinion.

I have also found there are much better places to get a full story crit from people who know how a full story should work.

F&F is a good place to start a story. Once it gets going, take it somewhere else to get the full story critted.

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

Tell us those other places, so we can go there too!

Posted by pantros (Member # 3237) on :

Like you don't already know, Will?

For workshops that deal with the rest of the story,

Libertyhallwriters.org
and
Notebored.com

Both require an invitation, but if you've been around here for a while, there are people who could arrange one. I'm not one of them, all the people I know well enough on Hatrack are already members of Liberty Hall and Notebored.

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

Oh -- OK!

Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :

quote:
That is, when I've already said such-and-such about the first 13, why waste my time saying it over and over again about the rest of the text? Anyway, according to OSC, if you change page 4 and then change page 1, you're going to have to change page 4 *again* because of the page 1 alteration. Better to get page 1 working first.

So, then, I'm wondering, why is it OSC had us critique whole stories at Boot Camp? He must have thought it valuable to critique whole stories, no matter how good or bad the first thirteen lines, because we did it. Eighteen times.

There's a heck of a lot more to writing than what fits into the first thirteen lines.

Story arc, conflict and resolution, character and scene development. Those things don't happen in the first thirteen lines--at least not completely. Usually not even remotely.

I know we've butted heads over this issue for a long time, Will. That's too bad.

But Hatrack isn't about critiquing thirteen lines. It's about making better writers of ourselves, about helping others be better writers, and that is best accomplished through whole-story critiques. We have to LEARN

quote:
how a full story should work

, (pantros' words) and I'm pretty sure F&F probably did that once for you. Just because it doesn't do it now, doesn't mean it's useless for everyone.

Pantros, I'm astonished. You probably got your start here at Hatrack, just like a lot of us. You had to come up through the ranks and give your share of sucky newbie critiques. You had to learn too. So now you're not willing to help those coming up behind you? In fact, all you can do is tell everyone how much 'better' it is over at LH? That feels a little self-superior to me. I don't think Mike would ever want anyone to feel self-superior because they're a member of LH.

I don't need Hatrack. But maybe, just maybe, Hatrack needs more people like me, who want to be here, contributing, helping, because we kind of owe the old lady something.

Of course that's only my opinion. But I like my opinion. I'm kind of attached to it.