Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Good guy vs other good guy

This is topic Good guy vs other good guy in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by RMatthewWare (Member # 4831) on :

Kathleen mentioned in another post that conflict isn't necessariliy about good vs evil, but protagonist vs antagonist.

quote:
An antagonist is someone whose goals come into conflict with those of the protagonist. And those goals don't necessarily have to be "bad" goals. They just have to come into conflict.

Can anyone here think of examples of stories (book or movie) where you have a protagonist and antagonist go against each other, when neither are necessarily wrong?

Or, to flip it, has anyone read a book or seen a movie where both characters aren't really "good" guys, but one is clearly a protagonist and the other the antagonist?

Matt

Posted by Skribent (Member # 5143) on :

I recommend Holly Lisle's article on conflict:

http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Workshops/conflict-workshop.html

She's much better at explaining than I am.

Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

quote:
Can anyone here think of examples of stories (book or movie) where you have a protagonist and antagonist go against each other, when neither are necessarily wrong?

Ender's Game.
Speaker For The Dead
Seventh Son by OSC

All of theThe Saga Of Seven Suns books
Captain Nemoby Kevin J. Anderson

Legend
The King Beyond the Gate
Waylander
Ravenheart by David Gemmell

The First and Second Demon Wars trilogies by R.A. Salvatore

The Matarese Circle
The Bourne Identity by Robert Ludlum

quote:

Or, to flip it, has anyone read a book or seen a movie where both characters aren't really "good" guys, but one is clearly a protagonist and the other the antagonist?

Face Off.
Sin City.
Underworld.
Interview With A Vampire.

Just to name a few...

[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited March 08, 2007).]

Posted by Rommel Fenrir Wolf II (Member # 4199) on :

Me I am in a constant struggle to do good but the way I see things I need to do evil to get the results.
Now I need to start my autobiography.
Rommel Fenrir Wolf II

Posted by BruceWayne1 (Member # 4604) on :

years ago there was a movie that really bothered me for this very reason, Smokey and the Bandit. the "good guy" was really a bad guy and everybody was cheering on the buy guy. as a youngster I remember that really bothering me.

Posted by trailmix (Member # 4440) on :

I dont know about that Rommel. I think doing the right thing is just slower.

Movies with badguys for potag and antag;
Payback
Goodfellas
The Sopranos (TV series)
Young guns
The Hiest
The italion job

Posted by KayTi (Member # 5137) on :

What about fluffy romance stories? Two guys fall for same girl, two girls interested in same guy. Usually there's some sort of tragic element to it all. Neither is necessarily *bad*, but guy/girl has to pick somebody, so the other gets hurt in the process. Some greek/shakespearean tragedies might be in this pattern...head foggy with a cold not aiding my thought process here.

Karen

Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :

In Bruce Almighty Bruce and Evan are competing for the anchor job, neither are bad, even though Evan is a nerd and Bruce is a jerk.

Posted by Rommel Fenrir Wolf II (Member # 4199) on :

A movie I just saw yesterday hits on this real good. It is called Sympathy for Lady Vengeance.
It is a real mind bender (I wont call it what we call it in the barracks) but it is damn good.
Rommel Fenrir Wolf II

Posted by SharonID (Member # 5059) on :

The first movie that came to mind is "Ice Princess". The girl wants to follow a dream, the mom lovers her daughter very much and is concerned for the girl's security. Neither of them are 'evil' and I think most people can understand their motivations, though we may grow impatient with one or the other, but that's not hte same as them being anything even close to evil. There are quite a lot of family-drama books and movies on a similar theme. "Whale Rider" (which earns a 'fabulous' rating from me) is the next movie that comes to mind. Another one that is a family drama, but this time more concerned with traditional values vs. modern needs. We may become impatient with the grandfather for his hide-bound beliefs, but he is trying to do what he thinks is right and even holy. Again, no evil. And what was that movie about the retarded girl (who also has a 'normal' sister) who falls in love and her family doesn't think she's up to it (very roughly stated)? Anyway, that's another one.

You can have lots of 'conflict' (I think this word is poorly chosen, as it often stands more for complication than outright conflict) without having to do the good vs. evil thing, and family dramas that do not involve twisted abuse are good places to look for examples.

A lot of love stories have conflict without good/evil, too. "Made in Heaven", one of my favorite light-side quirky romances would be a favorite example of that, since it avoids some of the more hackneyed 'conflicts' of romances and instead sets up a people vs. time scenario. People working against time or weather factors can give lots of 'conflict' without needing to bring evil into the picture, too.

Interesting thread.

Regards,

SharonID

[This message has been edited by SharonID (edited March 12, 2007).]

Posted by franc li (Member # 3850) on :

quote:
And what was that movie about the retarded girl (who also has a 'normal' sister) who falls in love and her family doesn't think she's up to it (very roughly stated)?

The Other Sister

I was thinking more along the lines of Gilgamesh and Ankidu. Or the Illiad. Having two virtuous people battle is one way in which we define our hierarcy of values. Is it greater to be a loyal brother or a loyal friend? What if the brother is not someone to be proud of? What if the friend gave their life for the hero?

Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :

Caitlain Bowman's "Call of the Mountain" series has a female MC who is in love with two men. One is from her country and is also a Rider. The other is an enemy of her country. As she gets to know the "enemy" she realizes that while his religion believes in blood sacrifice and he's attacked her country twice, he's not evil. He's looked at as a hero and a leader by his people. The two men are constantly at odds - for political reasons as well as over her. Neither of them are "bad" or truely "good." This tension without clear "good" or "evil" has made for a great trilogy (so far).

Posted by OMAGAOFTHEALPHA (Member # 5163) on :

That movie will send your mind through a loop. I checked it out. Real mind bender.
Sympathy for Lady Vengeance damn good movie.
OMAGAOFTHEALPHA

Posted by enki (Member # 5050) on :

I recently just rewatched Serenity again (Firefly as a movie) and it was helpful to watch it with Joss Whedon's comments regarding the protagonist / antagonist issues between Mal and the Operative.

While the Operative seems like the 'bad guy' throughout the movie (and he is in a way, a bit scary), the issues that grabbed me what how both believed in what he was doing. The Operative is a believer, this is actually what makes him scary. He believes what he is doing (working for the Alliance) is right. By proxy, it's actually the Alliance that is the antagonist. It is a mostly benevelant organisation bent on brining the outer planets into the 'fold' of the central planets' utopian society. Not necessarily a bad thing, they have better medicines, better education, better technology, better everything, but it's the way they attempt to squash the resolve of the outer planets that is disturbing. By not respecting the pre-existance of a culture in the outer planets, they become something a bit more nasty under the utopian ideal. Back to the thread, The Operative is a good guy, his values are those of integrity, honesty, loyalty and the belief in a better world. It's his actions that define him as scary since he is willing to uphold these usually lauded values at any cost. Contrasting this is Mal, who is supposed to be our protagonist, but he's also a thief, a killer and while not morally bankrupt, his values are a bit askew. He's the good guy. He stands up and does what no one else will do and he also does it at any cost. It's what we're rooting for him to do and because he does, other people die.

So what makes a character a 'good guy'? Is it because he adheres to the values of a society, or his internal values, despite what his society values? Bit of a circular discussion, but I have another example.

Stay with me on this one. In Pirates of the Carribean (dead man's chest), there are two good guys. There's the Hero fella (who's name escapes me at the moment) who tries to rescue people, the girl, etc. Then there's Jack Sparrow, who by all definitions is not really a good guy. He's morally bankrupt, he's a pirate afterall, and he looks out for number one first and anyone else that is useful to him, second. But we all root for Jack. Why? Granted he does stand up and show his mettle near the end with the Leviathian (sp?), but what is his motivation for this? He does it because no one else can? The Hero-guy will do the same, given a chance. He'll also probably fail, given the chance.

So what makes Jack so memorable as a character and his actions so noble? I think, and feel free to argue this, that he is a hero in his own right not because he chooses to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. I think he chooses it because he knows he has a choice. The other Hero-guy is emotionally (or morally) stunted in a way. He chooses good. Always. Because he's the good guy. Jack chooses good because he is all too aware of what the alternative is. He's been the bad guy. He's been selfish, self-serving and by some people's definitions, evil. He chooses a good action because he knows that he is in a position to choose. And so he does the sacrificial act and we all mourn his nobility.

I like characters that are more complex like this. Characters that ask questions. I'm often bored with the 'he's good because he's good' explanation.

Wow I didn't think I'd have much to contribute right away, but character development is what I love to chew over. In my writing I strive to make my characters clearly on one side or another and then I like to remove that assumption as I go along. I'm interested in motivation, and I think that is what defines one good guy from another; is this character choosing to be good because he knows he has a choice, or is he choosing by default?

The ones who are aware of the choice are to me, the far more compelling and heroic characters than the ones who just play at being a Hero because that's what they've been told (or tell themselve) they are.

Cheers!
B.

Posted by OMAGAOFTHEALPHA (Member # 5163) on :

CHEERS.
Bottoms up. Over the tong and down the through look out liver here it comes.
OMAGAOFTHEALPHA

Posted by Rommel Fenrir Wolf II (Member # 4199) on :

Omega have you been drinking? It is not that Irish holiday yet.
Rommel Fenrir Wolf II

Posted by franc li (Member # 3850) on :

Is it merely coincidence that Enki's good guys are also very very hot?

Posted by discipuli (Member # 3395) on :

The anime/Manga Naruto sets two of the main characters together in life / death battles. Their relationship would be akin to very dysfunctional brothers , both bieng orphans and bieng closest to one another due to an ongoing rivalry .
The stereotypical talented pretty boy Sasuke wants to leave his home and hunt down his brother (who killed the rest of the family) by any means necassary . Naruto the MC sees his search for power and revenge as self destructive and tries to stop him from leaving (big kung fu battle here) and fails .
A core element driving the plot is his search to try and bring back is friend which means beating him senseless for his own good.