Any thoughts or help would be greatly appreciated.

Matt
 

Tracy
 

If it was the writng then it won't matter what you describe.

If it is the story then you need to work on the basic story arc.

If the story can survive without the 'rape' why have it at all?

The idea of rape would be to make the story more personal to the character, if that makes any sense. The original idea involved a mugging, but to get to the ending I want, I thought it must be more severe.

Rape is such a sensitive and complicated concept. It would be a challenge to write it, but I want the challenge. I'm not going for actually describing the act in a overt way, I want to deal more with the after affects (the victim ends up pregnant and has to deal with whether to keep the child or not).

Matt
 

What I tried to do was stay strictly in the MC POV. In my opinion, the act would end up a blur anyway. From what I've seen and heard the trama tends to muddle the actions but sharpen the emotional responses. I would imply the act and then deal with her feelings of helplessness and revultion.

Just my take.
 

Tracy

 

I'm having a hard time imagining why someone would not give a child up for adoption that was the fruit of rape. Maybe that's just my knee jerk reaction. I know a majority of people would consider, if not automatically choose abortion.
 

And not all women would abort a rape baby. Most might, but not all. A lot of the story will work around the idea of should she keep the child or not, and why. And it will deal with it in such a personal way that it won't be a clear cut answer.

Matt
 

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Why is it that if the doctor kills the child while it's in the womb it's an abortion, but if the baby is out of the womb and the doctor and nurses beat the baby to death they would all go to prison for murder?

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I believe that has to do with the legal definition of when a fetus becomes a fully realized person with inalienable rights, capable of being "murdered" by the legal definition of murder, tnwilz.

Or was that supposed to be a rhetorical question?
 

It's pretty heated stuff, usually---if you can stand it, go ahead with your plans, but if you can't, don't.
 

I'd avoid having the event be a rape if at all possible.

You can get the life changing event with a mugging, especially one with serious injuries as a result - As Good as it Gets does.

Rape survivors have a lot of issues to deal with. Add to the mix a rape survivor dealing with a pregancy as a result? That's going to emotionally cripple most people. Also, it is likely that if your MC reported the rape and ended up in the hospital, she probably was offered (and took) the day after pill to reduce that risk.

If you have a very religious MC who believes abortion is a mortal sin, you are going to have to deal with the horrible psychological scarring that goes along with both the initial rape and the daily rape as the fruit of that action grows inside her.

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A lot of the story will work around the idea of should she keep the child or not, and why. And it will deal with it in such a personal way that it won't be a clear cut answer.

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There is a clear cut answer for each person. While the survivor will have issues with her choice, she makes one.

I wouldn't raise the stakes by making it a rape.

And I don't think there is a "clear cut answer for each person". I think there's a lot of emotion involved, a lot of trauma, and most would have a hard time deciding what to do.

I would say the vast majority of women that are impregnated by rape would abort, but how many would keep the child? How many would be in such denial (as many are) about the incident that they would carry the child full-term before knowing they are pregnant? This does happen.

I know some people will be upset (if I ever see the work published) about talking about rape. But why can't we talk about things that occur in life? Isn't that what literature, and speculative fiction specifically, try to do? Topics that affect people in personal ways should not be avoided. My goal, though, is to handle the subject in a sensitive and accurate way. I want the story to be real without being salacious.

Matt
 

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I know some people will be upset (if I ever see the work published) about talking about rape. But why can't we talk about things that occur in life? Isn't that what literature, and speculative fiction specifically, try to do? Topics that affect people in personal ways should not be avoided. My goal, though, is to handle the subject in a sensitive and accurate way. I want the story to be real without being salacious.

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Kudos. You just won considerable respect for me. Yes, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THINGS! I think my ability to talk about it did a lot to help me avoid some of the aftermath that rape survivors so often experience, the one time I was raped.

To illustrate the tragedy of the things people have trouble talking about, I'll use plain old everyday married sex. My paternal grandmother was married off to a farmhand without too much say in the matter when she was 15. Her mother had passed away when she was nine years old, and no one had told her anything about the 'facts of life'. Many months later, her she went into labor with her first child. She was alone in a country farmhouse (with a blizzard raging so she couldn't get out to get help), her husband having traveled somewhere or other for a job. The poor girl—16 by now—went into labor and (I swear this is true... she told me this story herself, eye to eye) did not even know where the baby was trying to get out... for awhile she thought maybe her navel. The baby died, not too surprisingly, and it's a wonder my grandmother survived (which means it's a wonder I'm here). A real tragedy because, at least in part, of the kind of ignorance that results when people avoid talking about difficult subjects.

I was lucky in a lot of things, the time I got raped. It was a stranger, not someone I loved and trusted (or at least should have been able to love and trust, as in the case of children raped by relatives or caregivers). I was not a virgin at the time. I did not become pregnant (on birth control, fortunately, so I didn't have that worry) or get a disease (this was pre-AIDS, so I also didn't have that worry.. all the 'social' diseases were curable then, or at least non-fatal). Still, it was pretty awful to go through, but I came through it and went on without carrying a load of dirt or guilt. A lot of things helped me to heal, including sympathetic friends I COULD talk to. (I didn't report it... the circumstances and social consciousness of the time would likely have gotten me laughed out of court back then, since I had taken a ride from the man and gone willingly to his apartment.) Successfully fighting off the next (and last) attempt, a year or so later and a different place/person, was sort of the crowning touch in my healing. I don't have any trouble talking about rape or my experience with it, and I have talked with many rape survivors. We tend to find each other....

I didn't have to face the quandry of pregnancy, for which I am profoundly grateful. It would be very hard for me to abort a fetus, but on the other hand, I could sure understand how a woman could make that choice. I find it interesting that no one in this thread has mentioned that there may be a genetic component in the decision. Since the fetus is half the product of someone who is essentially a monster, it may carry genetic material that will take it in the same direction. I have heard horror stories of the children of such unions. I also think the woman's emotional makeup is important. I don't think you're doing the new life any favors carrying it in your womb if your'e going to hate it the whole time and then give it up for adoption. Then if the child turns to be, shall we say, a bad 'un, one might wonder if it was genetics or the nine months of hate. I'm grateful I didn't have to make the choice, and I can't imagine judging a woman who made the choice for an early abortion under such circumstances. But then I at least credit the possibility of reincarnation, which makes the whole issue at least a little easier for me than for those who don't.

Still, if any specifics of my experience or the things I know from the experiences of others can help in what I see as a laudable writing goal, you are welcome to email me privately, and ditto for crits of particularly sensitive/disturbing material (IF you are 18 or older, since this is a topic of a sexual nature, though that doesn't mean I wouldn't counsel a teen survivor, but that's a different kettle of fish). My schedule is very full, and I can't promise instant responses, but I'll do my best. The best way to fight rape, as with other dark topics, is to bring the subject out into the light. Kudos to you for having the courage to try to approach the subject from this enlightened viewpoint.

Best Regards,

SharonID

[This message has been edited by SharonID (edited March 06, 2007).]
 

Matt
 

1) Rape is not sex. I'm not being nit-picky, this is, as I understand it (I am not a rape survivor), a big and important thing to understand. Rape is aggression, an act of violence, domination, but not sex.
2) If you are a man trying to write a woman's POV in a rape, I think this will be quite challenging. The invasion, the shock, horror, outrage, shame, humiliation, agony - trying to get into that is going to be very difficult. I am struggling to come up with a comparison, and the only one I can think of is...rape. So, you might want to do some thought exercises about what if the MC were the same gender as you are and raped. I'm not normally this sticky about gender, but I think there is something truly truly unique about rape for women, particularly with the result you intend to portray - the possibility of pregnancy, that makes it really hard to talk about and write. Not impossible. Just really hard.
3) Most women do not care to read about rape. I think you're pretty clear on this already from previous posts, but if the rape becomes a central part of the story and featured, say, in the synopsis of the story - well, that's a reason I'd have to put it down. I agree with you and Sharon about not avoiding talking about difficult topics. However, maybe I'm unique in this POV, but life is full of enough bad stuff - I'd rather read something else. I would not buy a book that deals with rape (or any other sexual assault for that matter) if I could tell from the storyline that the rape features prominently. Ditto for movies. It limits my world a bit, but frankly, there aren't enough hours in the day as it is, so it doesn't bother me.
4) All this said, I recently read a book that featured the scenario you're envisioning, and even surprised myself when I went on to read the rest of the trilogy! *SPOILER ALERT - book recommendation comming*

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It's The Summer Tree by Guy Gavriel Kay (and the other two - The Wandering Fire, and The Darkest Road.) Interesting alternate-history fantasy, magic featured, and a horrible bad guy. The way the author chooses to handle the rape and subsequent pregnancy and birth of the child is interesting. The way he portrayed the woman seemed accurate. It was not graphic in a detailed sense, though he conveyed the horror and fury. That part of the book moved quickly, or maybe that was me. I honestly didn't realize it was happening until it happened (or I might not have bought the book - interestingly recommended to me by a few women - blowing my own theory, LOL) and the first book ended with a bit of a cliffhanger which compelled me to read the other two. I'm compulsive like that.

At any rate, I've just read them recently. If you wanted to check them out of the library or look for them at a local bookstore I can even give you page numbers, if you're looking for an example of treatment of the actual event. The pregnancy and birth is handled over the course of the next 2 books, it's harder to pinpoint a place where that happens in the story, but also interesting. I enjoyed the books though I found the style of the author a bit much sometimes (a bit too flowery, though that's my general criticism of fantasy.)

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I work in an ER and someone posted an article about rape. It said that most rape victims never report the rape. Reasons are various, but most have to do with embarrassment and shame.

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If your understanding of rape and its aftermath comes from a poster in the ER you are on the wrong track. Most of us don't report the rape because the monster is someone we know. And that fact that the legal system (and yes I am a lawyer) rapes the victim again even under the best circumstances.

You also have to remember that the Rape Shield Law is reasonably new. The Rape Shield Law, in theory, prevents the defendant from dragging the victim's sexual history out in court. A friend brought a rape charge in Mass. BEFORE the Rape Sheild law. She wasn't a virgin when she was raped and knew the monster in question. Not only did the defendant drag out every ex-boy friend in town but his whole case was she was easy and got what she deserved. Needless to say, the monster got away. When she was raped again by the monster, she didn't press charges. She moved away.

Even with the rape shield law, defendants will dig into sexual history and try to use the information. Any sexual contact with the Defendant will be admitted at trial to show consent. Even if no prior sexual history comes in the victim has to relive and describe the event. Because of the speedy trial act most trials are less than a year after the incident. Most victims are not emotionally ready to discuss the events then.

For me, it took five years before I told anyone. He was my boss. I was 17. I did have to worry about pregancy and AIDS and I was a virgin. November is the 20 year anniversary.

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I think most can imagine what it would be like to have said sex forced on us.

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I don't think so. There is also a HUGE difference between a stranger rape and someone you know and trust as the rapist. RAPE IS NOT SEX. I don't think being a man is going to make this harder for you to write IF you talk to rape survivors.
 

Matt
 

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For a man, rape is not for sexual gratification, but an act of violence, an act of superiority.

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This doesn't strike me as a universal statement? Granted, my personal experience with this topic goes about as far as watching rape-cases of Law and Order, etc on television, but don't *some* rapists get sexual gratification out of the act of voilence and superiority itself? Rape is not sex. Rape IS an act of aggression. But for at least some fraction of rapists, it is this aggression and voilence over women that results in their gratification, sexual and otherwise. This gratification is why they rape, at least in part, isn't it?

I mostly ask because I have a would-be rape scene in my novel, in which a main character kills the would-be rapists before it gets very far. This scene is more of a getting ambushed in a dark ally by a group of men type of rape than between a victim and someone the victim implicitly trusts, and the motivation I had in mind for the men is simple sexual gratification. They want sex and it doesn't matter if the victim consents. If the purpose of rape (even for some) is not sexual gratification, then this motivation is unsound...
 

But it's also an act of violence, and also a way for a rapist to force his or her will on a chosen victim.

*****

I tend to avoid these things in my stories...when I write about sex the result looks and reads stupid to me, so I wind up taking it out...y'know, "write what you know" and all that stuff.
 

Look at the psych studies done of rapist and pediphiles in the 70s and thereafter. The reason I point to the ones in the 70s is that some of them looked at castration, surgical or chemical, as a way to "cure" the aggressive drives. It didn't work. Most raped again after being released from jail. Those that were castrated penetrated with objects. The high is not from the sexual act. The high is from the power most rapist get from causing fear and harm. The orgasm, for those rapist who can achieve it, is a bonus but not, generally, the purpose. So the sexual "payoff" is a motive but not, generally the dominant one.

Max, are the ambushing party members POVs? If they aren't, you aren't going to need to delve into the motivation as much. Also, I suspect if you look at thier motives closely you'll find they want the potential victim's fear just as much. If all they wanted was sexual gratification, why not go to a whore? Why an en mass ambush in a dark alley of an unwilling female? It's not that it "doesn't matter if the [i] victim [/] consents," they are looking for sex with an unwilling female.

If they are looking for someone to have rough sex (i.e. fighting, biting, hitting, etc.) with, that too can be found, most likely, on a consensual basis. In BDSSM, "fantasy rapes" are an acceptable form of play. Note the "Fantasy" though. The difference in DBSSM play and real rape is for BDSSM: (1) the participants are WILLING; (2) details of the acceptable behavior are negotiated in advance; (3) generally held in controlled situations with "Dungeon Masters" - and no, these are not roll playing geeks - to ensure the scene does not get out of control (4) the "victim" has the right to end the scene if the "assailant(s)" excedes the acceptable bounderies; and (5) the "Assailant(s) stop IMMEDIATELY if the "victim" uses a safe word.

In any event, while you might not have understood thier motives, the men in your novel are rapists and not out seeking sexual gratification.

The two (rape v. normal sexual gratification) are mutally exclusive. If all you want is sexual gratification, go to someone who will give it to you. If you are a rapist, that object of your attention must be unwilling.

As for writing about rape - if you describe the act, most women won't read it. Many women won't read it even if you don't describe the act. Most of us have a whole long list of things we think should happen to rapists, starting with gelding him with a rusty hacksaw blade with no anesthesia (not just gelding him - turning him from "a rooster to a hen" as Dolly Parton put it so succinctly in "9 to 5"). If you show a scene with her friends and family plotting revenge on him - women will love that. But if you dwell on the dark side of it, it will be less appealing to them.

What's your market for this story? If you get too involved in the rape part, it will detract from the main plot of your story and a rape case just doesn't feel like a sf/f plot to me.

Lynda
 

I've seen several agent blogs that specify they will not represent stories with graphic rape scenes, or other heinous acts (incest, child abuse) depicted. If an agent is turned off by that sort of scene, even if the rest of the writing is good, they may tell you, "Sorry, this story isn't for me."

The other issue I would give you caution on is this: Unless you have personal experience with rape, I'd suggest leaving the topic alone. This is one area that if you haven't gone through it, either yourself or with someone you know well, you simply won't be accurate with the details. You won't get what happens psychologically, nor will you accurately portray the fall-out following the event, and believe me, there is fall-out.

I worked for a while as an advocate for a program that helped victims of domestic violence and rape. I could give you a whole long list of reasons why making an attack scene into a rape just to spice it up is a bad idea. But, as I said earlier, if you haven't walked down that road with someone you care about, you won't get it.

Suffice it to say it WILL severely limit your audience, and make finding an agent several times harder.
 

There were other touchy subjects. For instance, man-on-man homosexuality was a big "no-no" among practically all the participants---yet lesbianism came up all the time. Go figure.
 

[This message has been edited by Rommel Fenrir Wolf II (edited March 12, 2007).]
 

In regards to the issue of a man being raped by a woman, a man will often have the same emotional trauma experienced by a woman in that situation. The trauma is often compounded because of the societal beliefs that men "want it" or that men are bigger and stronger and thus cannot be raped.

In regards to writing, I critiqued a story that had a scene in it where a woman raped a man, and I came back with a very strong reaction against that scene. It would have made me put the book down, and not pick it back up. I find the act reprehensible, regardless of the gender of the people involved. And so do a lot of other people.

Working in a graphic scene of violence such as rape in a manuscript is something the writer does at their peril. Every word you you write has a cost... it either advances your story and deepens your connection with the reader, or it costs you through reader disbelief and refusal to read on. The cost of including a rape scene in your manuscript is pretty high.

On a side note, I think that the idea that you can't write what you haven't experienced is crap. You very much can write what you haven't experienced, if you do research and make the facts as accurate as possible. If you only wrote what you knew, your writing would be severely limited. But, if I find a publisher, you can see if I am right or wrong.

There are many that can't write what they know. Some things require a certain level of detachment.

I do understand that any hint of rape will reduce my audience. I'm not writing this story to appeal to the broadest audience, I'm writing because I want to. If someone publishes it, great. If not, maybe the next story will be published. When it comes to writing, I want to put something of life into it.

Matt
 

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I know some people will be upset (if I ever see the work published) about talking about rape.

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I'll take a chance that I'm not repeating. I think it's okay to write about rape if your intention is to write about rape. If this is you putting your main character up in a tree and throwing rocks at them (if you understand what I'm referring to) then I would be upset by it. Some of your early posts in this thread suggested this is the latter. For what it's worth.
 

Had I told when it happened, there would have been two murder charges brought because the guy I was dating and my best friend at the time would have taken thier rifles out of the trunk and hunted the guy down. I didn't want them throwing thier lives away.

Matt

You started this thread by saying:

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I'm going to start rewriting a story that had once been rejected. It involves a woman that had been attacked, but I think it was too mundane in it's original form. The new concept involves rape, but I've never written such a scene. I wondered how I should tackle such a theme, or if I should at all.

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then:

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The idea of rape would be to make the story more personal to the character, if that makes any sense. The original idea involved a mugging, but to get to the ending I want, I thought it must be more severe.

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The point is, it doesn't have to be a rape to have life altering effects. If you are going to rewrite the story this way make sure you are doing it for the story and not the shock value. If you are going to write this, talk to rape survivors. "Writing what you know" applies not only to personal knowledge buy also to what you know from GOOD research. I would suggest that good writing has nothing to do with detachment.