"Jared walked as if alone on the crowded street. He wore the tunic of the Nightkeepers, a group of righteous white knights created in the time of chaos of the last thousand years of the Jaenghin Empire. They were the weapon to quench the chaos of the Darkwraiths. After the Darkwraiths had been born into the world, their scourge destroying millions of lives before an effective weapon could be brought to bear. He had the power of the Nightkeepers, with the abilites to read the thoughts of those before him, to see in the dark, to uncover the lies that Darkwraiths excelled at spinning. Their secrets laid bare before his scrutiny. To destroy them with Angelfire if it came to that, as it had tonight. He tried to block the memory, but he couldn't, the face of his sister flashed through his mind. He had killed his sister, a Darkwraith, only a few minutes before. He still remembered her voice as she cried out her last. His hands trembled, he felt a sickness. Rationalizing It was just the after effects from the force of his power being unleashed, it always weakened him, thats why he must be careful never to use it too often, or be left vulnerable. At least that's what he told himself, trying to hold back the tears. The Darkwraiths had claimed so many in the last thousand years, their scourge taking it's toll on so many. He had never experienced that pain personally till now.”

Thats just an example I wrote trying to cram as much of the backstory I could come up with on short notice. Its not a perfect example I know, oh well. But the point is, I tried to make it with as much information upfront as it seems is preferred by some of the posters on the feedback I have read.
Here is another example with the same basic story,

“Jared walked the crowded street, barely noticing the passerby. He felt flushed, almost sweating even though the night was chill. Adrenaline still pumped through his veins, his heart raced. The rush from the release of his power had been like a pent up damn bursting, careening through his body. It had been ecstasy, it had been what he was born to do, right up till the moment that power destroyed the most precious part of his life. He felt sickened.
He scrubbed his hands, trying to clean the crusted dried blood of his sister off of them. He wondered who was the monster now and if darkness that had claimed his sister now resided in him. As tears began to form at his eyes, he wondered whether the cost of destroying the Darkwraiths, beings that acted, bled, and looked like the person they mimicked was worth the price. He wondered if he would ever be able to use his power against them again.”

Maybe these aren't the best examples... but the point remains. Which does a reader prefer. Im sure that like in most things, extremism never works, so walk the knife edge on this as well. Pick between too much exposition, too little, or Just Right. Im not saying that what I wrote represents any of that, but I think you get the gist of the examples.

The discussion I would like would be why you think your particular preference (whatever it may be) is the one that also represents the preference of most reading adults?

I see a lot of feedback that is so Extreme. It is all about Give me all the Details or Die, or You have put too much detail so you must Die. This is generally not good advice from what Ive seen, and rarely is it said that one should strive for the best possible mix. Im just wondering what your opinion on this is?
 

As general as it gets, the 13 lines should set the tone for the story. I should know what kind of story I'm reading in that first paragraph or two. I should also know the format (scifi/fantasy/horror). I also need a hook. I don't need to travel to the Department of Back Story, but I do need an excuse to keep reading. Editors at publishing houses are trying to dump your submission as soon as possible. If they're not hooked pretty quickly, then you're getting rejected. They've got better things to do.

A lot of people attack the 13 line format, but usually you can get my attention in 13 lines. I did, however, see one Fragment that needed 14 lines to hook me. It really couldn't be done any faster. Fourteen lines is what was needed. But most of the time you can hook a person in 13.

Matt
 

The backstory question is an interesting one. One thing I have found with myself is that when I'm putting something down for the first time it helps me to work out backstory as I go along, and I'll often capture it by writing it in, maybe with the false subconscious belief that the reader also needs it. But usually that's not true.

I have to rely on re-drafting/rewriting/revising/editing to come close to a passable attempt at providing just-in-time backstory.

It's possible that people enthusiastic with a new piece share it for critique without having completely dealt with that editing point. I know I've done it.

I also think sometimes we as critiquers of opening excerpts build up curiosity that can't be answered by reading on, and probably encourage a surplus of information in the snippets we can see, although inadvertantly. A way to clear confusion is by adding information, but it's not always the best way. Sometimes confusion can be answered by rearranging what's there, or even removing something.

It would be a tall order, but if you could get write an opening that won universal acclaim on this site, you'd probably have a heck of an opening. It can be frustrating, but in the end it's a benefit.
 

The main key is tension. Information that creates tension is good. Information that is backstory must be minimized and woven in carefully.
 

I have noticed that F&F commenters often ask authors to provide additional detail right up front. But often, they are not asking for detail about backstory. Rather, they are seeking clarity about the POV character's identity, personality, motivation, or attitude, or clarity on the setting or situation.

Compare the following two openings for the same story. Both openings recount the same event. Which is more interesting?

1) As she walked past, he stood watching her, thinking what he always thought in such situations, although this time for somewhat different reasons. She could not see him, of course, but what did this matter? For all he knew, she might not even recognize him after so many years. On the other hand, she had hardly changed. Apparently, she had not even changed her clothes.

2) Seeing his ex-wife Tabitha waddling out of the bowling alley at midnight, Melvin hastily slipped on his amulet of invisibility. Fourteen years had passed, but still she wore that orange and purple polka-dot leotard.
 

I love this!

Excellent examples, eclectic!

It's so true. Yet another reason why taking the first 13 too seriously is potentially dangerous and disheartening.

The key is to do two things:
1. If the feedback feels right to you in your gut, go with it;
2. If it doesn't, ignore it and say 'Thank you' with a smile!

And realize this: Unless the feedback is coming from someone who wants to publish your story, it's only an opinion.

And on your discussion question:
Any writer who knows anything about writing knows two things (if you haven't noticed, I like to number my comments):
1. My preference is MY preference, which means I'm reacting as a POTENTIAL reader. Readers have wildly diverging preferences, which is why there are so many genres and sub-genres out there. Reacting to your own work based on the opinions of such a VERY small sampling of potential readers is ludicrous. See #1 under 'The key is to...'
2. I'm actually not reading fragments as a reader. I'm reading them as a writer. I see things and pick out things that most readers don't even think about. Readers are MUCH more forgiving about the fine points of the craft of writing than writers are.

If you want feedback from readers, pass out copies of your first 13 lines to a bunch of guys at a SF/F Convention and ask them one question: "Having read this, would you want to read more?"

If the answer is "Yes!" you've done your job.
If the answer is "Hmm. Not really," then try again.

But you're getting feedback from writers. Each one with their own opinion of good writing, their own level of actual proficiency in the craft, and very few of which who have actually been doing this long enough to have published anything.

Ditto, dvjdakota

Matt
 

quote:

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Jared walked as if alone on the crowded street. He was tense; his heart raced. He wore the tunic of the Nightkeepers, a group of righteous white knights created in the time of chaos of the last thousand years of the Jaenghin Empire...

---

Here's the problem. We're getting info, but it's not *relevant* info. I don't care what kind of clothes Nightkeepers wear; I want to know why Jared is afraid (or eager, or whatever he is).

Second fragment:

quote:

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Jared walked the crowded street, barely noticing the passerby. He felt flushed, almost sweating even though the night was chill. Adrenaline still pumped through his veins, his heart raced. The rush from the release of his power had been like a pent up damn bursting, careening through his body. It had been ecstasy, it had been what he was born to do, right up till the moment that power destroyed the most precious part of his life...

---

So, although it's true that the reader is the final arbiter of what the reader likes , I don't think we should just stop there and say "it's all opinion." It *is* all opinion, and I think opinions will run strongly toward "engage me by helping me identify with Jared's fear."

[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited March 01, 2007).]
 

Try to think about these things:

1. What, specifically, does the reader need to know to understand the scene?

2. What about that scene can your readers relate to enough that you can use it as an in to your story?

Practice makes perfect. And while it is true that every reader will prefer something a little different, most readers want neither info dumps nor confusion. They want relevant details that get them into the story and they want to start with something that they can understand enough that there is no need for an info dump. That is your challenge.
 

But as others have said, every crit is just somebody's opinion unless they're your publisher - you do need to listen to your publisher, but you don't need to listen to those who critique you unless a lot of them agree.

Lynda
 

The reason is because the "info" in a typical infodump is not really info at all. It's boring shit that no one cares about. The REAL info is about the characters -- their fears, their motivations, their stories, etc. And you can dump THAT info on me for as long as you want!

The good example of this is Star Wars vs. Firefly.

In Star Wars, there are tons of names, places, categorzations, histories, etc. At the beginning of every Star Wars movie is a reel of information that you're supposed to care about. So the various political plotlines are interesting, but the names are overwhelming, and the characters suck. Like, when characters die in Star Wars, I have little to no reaction.

In Firefly, there are very few (place) names that you must remember. The ones that you do need come up as the story progresses. Most of the information they're trying to make you understand is about the characters and their personal histories. That's truly was makes Firefly a masterpiece and Star Wars just okay. I mean, when certain characters died in Firefly (Serenity acutally) I cried my eyes out...for a long time....
 

The thing I hate about info dumps is that:
(1) they tend to distract from the action, bogging the reader down
(2) if you give me too much info at once, especially if it includes names, dates, places, sects, political parties, etc., I'll never be able to remember the details later, when I need them.

(see, I can number things, too!)

I like your second opening better, because it flows more naturally. In the first "info dump" opening, I got started, then felt like I should be stopping to take notes for later reference.

Just another opinion from one who is not your publisher!
 

quote:

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Please give a spoiler warning for something like that.

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Well, I didn't tell you WHO died. Just go see the movie.
 

quote:

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I see a lot of feedback that is so Extreme. It is all about Give me all the Details or Die, or You have put too much detail so you must Die.

---

What strikes me about this comment is that it shows a level of emotional reaction on your part that is not reflected in the actual feedback. I never ever recall seeing feedback in F&F that puts that sort of onus on the writer. Yes, I realize the comments were made in a joking way, but I suspect it was only half-joking.

This tells me you are taking the critiques far too personally. Step back and look at the comments with a level of detachment if you can.

I appreciate critiques on my own work a great deal. I see it as a valuable opportunity to peer at my work through someone else's eyes. What I look for are:
1) Common complaints - when two or more people are flagging me on the same complaint, it indicates a more serious issue. Maybe I'll leave the passage as is; but at least I leave it knowing how it's coming across to some people.
2) Is the reader confused? The imagery is so very clear in my mind, it helps to be reminded when I've not done a good enough job at sketching the scene to the reader.
3) Is there a sub-context I failed to notice? Having someone from the opposite side of the ocean do a critique is incredibly valuable. Different cultures have different meanings for the same words, and it's good to know when you've made a writing faux paux on another continent.
4) I run into things from time to time that I feel strongly about -- but a good critique gives you a chance to weigh your emotional attachment to style, word choice, etc. against the price you pay, ie: reader detachment, disbelief, etc.
5) A critique is a good chance to see if the passages I had secret reservations about cause the same reaction in other people. If my inner instinct that something is missing is flagged by a reader, then I know I need to do some surgery.
6) A good critique also mentions things you do well. I've written some passages that I was pleased with, but when I got back a round of good feedback on it, I knew it was a keeper.

Use the critique as a measuring stick to gauge reader reaction - and don't treat the comments as good OR bad, merely informative. Ultimately you are in control of your manuscript. It's a gift, to be able to peek inside the mind of someone else as they read. If the opinions are extreme, so be it. But at least you will know BEFORE you submit to a publisher.

[This message has been edited by Elan (edited March 03, 2007).]
 

I might look for placed to sneak in tidbits if I need a pause in the story's pace, too, as long as it doesn't seem out of place to do so.

I can't say I succeed at that, but that is what I attempt to do.

I also agree the critique is a good place to measure bordeom vs. confusion.