Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Hatrack versus Success

This is topic Hatrack versus Success in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

Okay that title was just to grab attention. It worked didn't it? (Why can't I do that with my novel titles?)

My question is, a lot of us here spend a lot of time here.

I get a lot out of it, personally, benefititng from the insight and experience of far more experienced writers. But for the most experienced of you, I wonder if you were to spend less time here and substitute that time for producing written work (and remember this is entirely theoretical) how much greater volume of writing could you be producing on an annual basis?

Just a curious thought. And this isn't rhetorical I'd like to know.

[This message has been edited by Zero (edited January 08, 2007).]

Posted by CoriSCapnSkip (Member # 3228) on :

That's crossed my mind, having spent good portions of the last eight years online. Yes, it does as much harm as good in terms of time, although it does as much good as harm in terms of things you can find out simply not possible before the internet. One of those things, I think, is to help determine people's possible reactions to your writing. Of course, this could be a BAD thing!!! Because, from just being between you, an agent, and an editor, it becomes you, an agent, an editor, and a whole bunch of potential critics. Still, I consider time online a sort of apprenticeship, because you know what? Everyone's a critic, and posting on message boards gets you USED to the idea that someone will ALWAYS find something to pick apart that you didn't see and would never have suspected! How much better to get used to this in message board postings than to start in by having your fiction attacked--which is your CHILD! Anyhow, that's the way I look at it. That, and misery loves company.

What I mean to say is, from being hopelessly stuck, I hope to progress to doing some writing just from being inspired by seeing the struggle of so many others--in other words, produce MORE from having benefited from this forum, rather than try to do everything on my own.

Posted by nitewriter (Member # 3214) on :

There is another question here. Sure the volume produced may be less, but how much more refined are the submissions going to be as a result of spending time here and hence have a greater chance of being published. I would opt for lower production with increased chance of publication.

Posted by Lynda (Member # 3574) on :

I don't spend as much time on these message boards as I'd like to, because I'd rather be writing. But I learn a lot here, so the time spent here is very much worthwhile. Getting people's opinions on my ideas helps me refine them, find the holes in them, find resources to help me research them, etc. And CoriSCapnSkip is right - it's good to get your "babies" critiqued online and learn how to suffer through that process before someone whose opinion can make or break your writing career gets to see your work. I know I've often thought "This is good! It's ready to go!" and then posted that bit to a critique group and learned that it wasn't nearly as well-written as I COULD make it. The online critiques force me to be a better writer. It's all part of the learning process for those of us who are self-taught writers hoping to be published like "the big guys."

That said, it's a good idea to pick and choose what online things you look at so you don't wind up spending all your computer time on message boards rather than writing. I belong to a lot more groups than I read or post to, simply because I join them when I find them, surf them a bit, and then just post to the message boards I find the most interesting or useful to me. I simply don't have time to keep up with all the writing boards, or even the two I try to be fairly faithful to (this one and Notebored.com).

Lynda

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I have this morbid and disgusting need to express myself in front of somebody, and online posting seems a good way. Besides, Kathleen mentioned Hatrack to me---I must have read about it, but it never occurred to me to come here before that---and, since it involved my chosen line of endeavor, trying to write, it worked out for me. So far.

(I had been expressing myself around the Internet Fan Fiction community that sprung up, but I dropped that awhile before I came here---in particular, the political debates soured my opinions of several people who also hung out there. Also, the series in question had long since ended and my ability to write in that mode seemed to be drying up. I might return someday---I still occasionally hear from some of them.)

*****

Also, I think that, since hanging here, my production levels have gone up. I'd been in a slump for a few years, or so it seemed...since coming here, I started two novels (one now fairly substantial) and wrote three or four stories (in various stages of completion).

Posted by Chaldea (Member # 4707) on :

Robert: Do you ever post any of your work, here or anywhere, say a chapter? I would love to read your work. You express yourself clearly and I enjoy reading your posts. My genre is also SF.

Posted by Alethea Kontis (Member # 3748) on :

From the corner of the "more experienced," I'll say this:

I sit in front of a computer most of my waking life. I work at a computer at my dayjob from 7am - 4pm, and then I go home and work on the computer for the rest of the night. My fiance is currently in Sweden - we communicate mostly through Skype (via the computer). I don't have cable -- I watch my TV shows on the computer. I write and write and write, and when I need to take a break and let my mind wander elsewhere...well...I can visit with my friend without having to leave my chair.

I frequent Hatrack, Shocklines, MySpace, and my two Writing community websites. I connect with my friends and see what's up. They keep me up to date on what's going on in the world (no TV = no news) and remind me that there's a world out there beyond this chair. My brain gets some social stimulation, and then it's back to work. The commute is zero.

I am not "wasting" words on these boards, I am living my life -- pitiful as that may sound.

Now, back to the grindstone...

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

That is impressive. Personally I'd go totally insane. Maybe even become a psychotic murderer, which would of course be in order.

Posted by franc li (Member # 3850) on :

I have about 10,000 posts over on the junkie forum. Well, at least 1000 of those were actually on "Discussions about Orson Scott Card." After I cut back, I became convinced that all the time regulars spend posting there is being collected and used to subsidize death row appeals and terminal medical cases. The relative amount of time I spend posting here is laughable by comparison (to my junkie heyday). But then, I'm not sure how much of a regular I qualify as.

I come here under the theory that being around other writers helps me to remember the writerly aspect of my personality. Sort of like that preacher story where the preacher goes to the house of the dude that missed church and pokes an ember away from the fire and it grows cold. Then he puts it back and it warms up again.

[This message has been edited by franc li (edited January 08, 2007).]

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

What I've noticed happening is that Hatrack is effective (not affective) for writers of a certain level. If you are serious about writing, you'll eventually outgrow Hatrack. You'll have your "generation" and keep in touch with them. I've noticed that Bootcamp graduates tend to wander away, but not completely. Bootcamp graduates have moved to another level, and have outgrown Hatrack, for the most part. We still come around because we like Hatrack, and we like helping the less experienced writers, but we aren't here nearly as much as we once were because it becomes all give and no get for us.

And that will continue. New blood comes in, they learn, they become the experienced voices, and they move on. I personally only read about one in four threads because either we've already done that one, or the topic just doesn't interest me. On the topics that do interest me, I'll chime in.

Posted by Inkwell (Member # 1944) on :

^^^
Veritas.

...With the possible exception of continuing to seek the opinions of Hatrackers on many technical issues, since I don't know many people IRL who actually like to ruminate on the nitty-gritty aspects of writing speculative fiction. In recent years, this place has become more of a brainstorming lair for me than anything...in addition to all the other things you just said.

Perhaps I'm just getting a bit long in the tooth, metaphorically speaking. Not as much as some (you know who you are)...but musty, nonetheless. In the best possible sense of the word.

Inkwell
-----------------
"The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp."
-Anonymous

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

On where my work can be found---I've posted a couple of "first thirteen" over the time I've hung out here, but they seem like "crude beginnings" rather than finished work. I'd like to think they're not representative of what I'm capable of---or maybe they are, too much so.

I mentioned Internet Fan Fiction---I've taken a self-enforced vow not to mention names or locations, mostly for legal reasons, even though it's all still out there in cyberspace. I gather a couple of people 'round here have hunted up some of it---some of you have mentioned it, and by name-of-show. If any of you think it's worthwhile, a foray to a search engine and use of my name should turn up a few links. Whether any of it is good in a "good writing" sense is up for grabs---I tend to dislike what I've written when I reread it. But certainly the Internet is your best bet for finding something I've written.

[looks furtively over shoulder] But you didn't hear it from me.

Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :

I have writing time, and I have fooling around on the computer time. I write best first thing in the morning. I usually get up somewhere between 5:00AM and 6:00AM, make coffee, fire up the laptop and often will write until I have to get ready for work. Like many others, I work on a computer all day. By the time I get home my creative juices have been zapped. I rarely write in the evenings. That's when I poke my head into my favorite internet sites to see what the latest news is.

I won't claim I've never wasted work time on Hatrack. But generally it's work time for other things.

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

Well if you have the discipline to budget your time that's commendable. Myself, I write when inclined and inspired. WHich is sporadic. Kind of like my financial budgeting. Maybe I just have problems in general.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I think that part of the reason Hatrack is valuable is because it helps provide inspiration and inclination. But maybe not

I've lost track of how many people have progressed from "unpublished" to "published" during their time here on Hatrack...it might be because I never was keeping track. I know I've never kept track of how many people spend a few months on Hatrack and leave without having made any serious improvment. There are times when we have a lot of published authors posting regularly and times when almost nobody is posting. I've taken a sabbatical or two myself.

I think that a lot of people come to Hatrack primarily to work on their writing and get support for being a writer. Writers who are selling somewhat more regularly have less incentive to do that here, they have other sources of criticism and social support. But I do notice that those who improve to the point of publishability tend to drift away after they get published, not before. Of course, that's difficult to say for certain, not everyone mentions every publication, or departure. Even if people did that, nobody's really keeping track.

Still, I would tend to say that my experience has been that Hatrackers are generally improving their writing skills quite rapidly compared to isolated writers. They also seem to have a significant chance of getting published earlier. But nobody knows for sure. When you come right down to it, if my time here on Hatrack is reducing the number of stories I sell, I'm okay with that