Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Writing as a "hobby"

This is topic Writing as a "hobby" in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by AstroStewart (Member # 2597) on :

I'm not sure what fraction of the people who frequent this forum actually aspire to be "professional writers," meaning people who write as their sole/main source of income at some point. Most of us are very serious about wanting to improve our skills to the point of becoming published, at least. For myself, though, I have written a novel, and am about half way through the sequel, with a third installment brewing in the back of my mind, and I do believe that my novel is now (or will be sometime in the near future) "good enough," whatever that means, to get published if I put in the required effort to find an agent and publisher willing to take me on.

But even if that dream comes true, and I found myself with an agent and a willing publisher tomorrow, I still don't see myself wanting to devote my entire life to the rigors of being a full time author. As far as actually trying to find said agent/publisher, is this a bad thing? Is it an unusual thing? How many authors do so in their spare time, perhaps producing a novel every few years or something? How many authors have a simple desire to tell one story that takes a short series (say 3-4 books) to complete, with no aspirations for continue writing for future publication?

I'm in graduate school now, in physics, with the prospect of being a scientist, involved in research and teaching at the university level, as my career choice for the future. Does this mean I will be an "undesirable" to a possible agent / publisher, because I'm not willing to, say, drop the rest of my life on the back burner and pick up the full time schedule of promotions, signings, and future works of a more full-time author?

Or is this kind of "half-time writer" more common than I think?

I hear stories about people who write a dozen novels before they find one that will be published. When all is said and done, I may just have one story to tell, though I don't know how many novel-length works would be required to tell it. I'm not writing out the story for the sole purpose of publication, per se, but I do believe I have the skill and patience required to work on it until it is "publishable." Does the fact that I don't actually desire to be a full time career-author mean make me and my story somehow tainted in the eyes of a publisher / agent?

Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :

Hardly any writers support themselves solely by writing fiction these days. The vast majority (99%? 95%?) have other sources of income.

Posted by AstroStewart (Member # 2597) on :

But are these other sources of income usually just "what pays the rent" where 90% of their real effort goes into writing while they, say, wait tables? Or do most writers have another source of income that they care about as much as / more than they do about writing? Essentially that's my question.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

All the best writers have something they care about far more than being published. Some of them make a living (or have already made one) doing that thing, some make a living writing about it. Writing is primarily a form of communication, it isn't an end in itself. If you forget that, you'll end up as a hack.

Posted by tchernabyelo (Member # 2651) on :

I would very much like to be a full-time author. Realistically, however, I am well aware that to become so will require one thing, and one thing only: absurd good fortune.

Until you start getting five or six figure advances on novels, and/or have a canon of twenty or so novels in current publication ticking over the royalties, then it's just a dream. So I really wouldn't worry about it.

Posted by Doc Brown (Member # 1118) on :

I like writing as a hobby because I cannot find one that is more productive. I have tried others. Sports cars are a great hobby, but expensive and wasteful. Cave exploration is neither expensive nor wasteful, but it is not productive.

When I write as a hobby it is not expensive, it is only moderatrely wasteful, and I actually produce something.

With practice I hope to get the "wasteful" equation balanced more toward productivity.

Posted by franc li (Member # 3850) on :

If all one is is a writer, what will one have to write about? The same is true for being a parent. Your work is turning the kids into human beings, but if you're not a human being, how do you go about this? (Which, I suppose, is why I write.)

Sometimes I wonder if it's been long enough since I did anything in the graphic arts for me to stop considering myself an artist. But I guess my grandmother stopped painting for most of her adulthood, then went back and had a degree of success at art in retirement.

But I wouldn't hesitate to go back to bookkeeping. I can't imagine circumstances that would get me back into linguistics, which was my major field. I generally consider it to have been a pretty massive waste of my scholarship opportunity. I do my best to talk people out of majoring in linguistics whenever possible. But I haven't been too successful at that either.

Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :

Stephen Horn who hit the NY Times best seller list with his first novel In Her Defense is still a full time lawyer. He wrote Defense by picking at it over a number of years for fun. The agent who handled it was able to get a two book deal for him.

His second book Law of Gravity took about 5 years to get to press because he was still a full time lawyer.

We're still waiting on #3 and because he writes really well, we'll wait until he has time to do it.

So, that's a long way of saying, I don't think that having a full time job other than being a writer is a turn off to agents. In fact, I suspect most of us are doing something else while we are writing. I also don't think that wanting to be a writer condemns you to a job that makes you want to slit your wrists to get the bills paid. Steve travels all over the world with his job and he definately cares as much about the
"day" job as he does the writing.

Posted by Mig (Member # 3318) on :

Keep your day job. 95% of authors can't afford to write full time and make a living solely from book advances and royalty checks. Check out this neat article from an agent blog regarding the realities of living as a full time author and the whether you really want to do that. http://dglm.blogspot.com/2006/11/michael-bourret-suggests-t_116473210080660344.html

Personally, I'd like to some day sell my "work in progress" but, I think I'd always rather have another full time job and keep the writing as some thing I want to do, as opposed to something I have to do. I think that going to work every day and meeting people and having those everyday expeiences helps my writing more than setting in my den every day, all day, ever could.

[This message has been edited by Mig (edited December 04, 2006).]

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I can truthfully say that, as of this moment, thirty-one-plus years from the day I wrote my first serious story, that I've never earned a dime from writing. (Pardon me while I let out a long sigh of regret.) But I'm still hopeful for the future, even for the one story that's out to market right now. And there are still others yet to write.

I second (or third) the "keep your day job" train of thought. I do, though strictly speaking it's a "night job," and I plan to quit---properly spelled "retire"---just as soon as possible.

(When I do sell something (take note that I say "when" and not "if"), I plan to count out the exact number of years, months, weeks, and days---I think it'll look neat when I brag about it, probably right here.)

Posted by oliverhouse (Member # 3432) on :

quote:
I can't imagine circumstances that would get me back into linguistics, which was my major field. I generally consider it to have been a pretty massive waste of my scholarship opportunity. I do my best to talk people out of majoring in linguistics whenever possible. But I haven't been too successful at that either.

I'm sure you make a great case, too, but I can't help but think about Tolkein and Lewis and the contributions they've made to great literature. Where would we be without Tolkein's linguistic depth?

quote:
When I do sell something (take note that I say "when" and not "if"), I plan to count out the exact number of years, months, weeks, and days---I think it'll look neat when I brag about it, probably right here.

Robert, I always read your posts with great interest, and I really, sincerely, truly hope we all see that someday soon. I admire your perseverance and dedication to the craft.

Regards,
Oliver

Posted by Leigh (Member # 2901) on :

My dream is to be published, but at only 19 years of age and still learning and creating my own style, I'm not fussed about getting published. At the moment I work casually at a supermarket, still live at home and am able to pay the few "bills" I have. I write when I have the time, have the motivation and so forth, like right now, I have the damn motivation, best to go write then

Posted by pixydust (Member # 2311) on :

I have the luxury of being able to be a stay-at-home-mom, but I still can't do as much with my writing as I'd like. I home-school four kids and have to balance my family and hobbies so I don't drive my loved ones crazy. I can't possibly be a full time author right now in my life. And probably won't be able to be one until my fourth kid reaches High-school (he's 4 BTW). And I'm fine with that. I'm happy being a mom and experiencing life as much a possible.

I also have an agent. And I have several publishers looking seriously at my work. So, in my case anyway, the answer to your question is no. You won't be undesirable.

[This message has been edited by pixydust (edited December 04, 2006).]

Posted by Jenn (Member # 7798) on :

If you set yourself up with a career of one sort, then you can always take a break from it, but you'll need to have set up the time profitably. By that I mean, sort out all the questions of what you want to write and why, and how it's going to be sustaining for you when you don't have the other income for that period of time. It's a lot of fun telling associates, 'I've left to write a novel.' That fun might, however, be all you get out of it.
There is a range of compatible careers like journalism but they won't necessarily give you *material*. Nowadays it seems to me that the most publisher-pants-wetting new authors are the ones who have backgrounds in law or some other specialist field. I can't see why a job in science wouldn't give you plenty of scope for fiction if that's what you want to write. The only hassle is time to write, and if you work toward making this possible you'll do it.

Posted by Alethea Kontis (Member # 3748) on :

I had to click on this thread because its title was something my parents always told me growing up. When I let them in on my career plans, they told me writing and acting were not real jobs. They were hobbies. At which point I told them I wanted to be a professional hobbyist.

I majored in Chemistry, to keep them happy. I've never made a dime from Chemistry.

I'm a buyer at Ingram Book Company. It is possibly the best job in the whole world. I am paid to buy books all day with someone else's money. I am showered with books. I interview authors for some of our marketing vehicles. I have contacts directly with publishers in New York that most authors would give a body part to have. I have a steady income, a 401K, and health benefits.

I laugh when my coworkers come up to me and say, "Girl, you won't be around here much longer," because I NEVER want to quit my job. I've been there 6 years already, and I'd happily stick around for 30 more.

However, I also consider myself a full-time, professional writer. I've had two books out with major publishers (Elemental for Tor and AlphaOops for Candlewick), and I'm currently finishing up a third (The Dark-Hunter Handbook for St. Martin's). All those, of course, on top of lots of other side projects like my Apex Digest essays and anthologies and website and everything else. I also have an agent--as much as I love her I have to say I didn't really want an agent. I got the first two book contracts on my own. But there were so many complications on this third one...it was pretty much unavoidable.

At a dinner with one of my reps a few months ago, she asked after AlphaOops, and how it was doing. She followed it by saying, "So, what you really want to be is a writer."

"I *am* a writer."

"But what you really want to do is write."

"I *am* writing."

Can't a girl have two full time jobs? Why is that so hard for people to get their heads around? Why does it have to be one or the other?

A writer writes.

What you classify yourself as is entirely up to you.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I should also say that the actual writing has been a blast---maybe not as much of a blast as an actual sale would have been, but a blast nevertheless. At least I have that.

Also it's not as if I haven't been published. A few things, here and there, at non-paying markets---gratifying but, again, not as much as money. There's also Internet Fan Fiction, which was never intended to produce any income, but did produce considerably more reaction and commentary than anything else I've written.

The closest I've ever come to actual money was when one small-press market bought a story---ten dollars on publication---then never published. (Hmm...it's been over ten years now...maybe I should check up on it one of these days...)

****

Another point on the "keeping your day job" angle is that it should be a decent day job, something that you can make a comfortable living at. Leigh mentioned working at a supermarket...I spent about ten years in fast-food before shoving myself into the USPS. A so-called "real job" might be demanding on your time (and, like mine, soul-draining, too), but you can gain income as well as experience, and relieve yourself of worries like "can I make the next payment on my car / house / computer this month?"

(Don't go heavy into debt either. Why add another tension-producing worry? I did, and I partially blame that tension for some of the "writer's block" I've periodically suffered from over the years. (Past, now, debt and block, but it might come up again.)

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Althea wrote (apparently while I was posting the above) a "best job." The best job I ever had was working in a used bookstore my parents owned for about three years or so...but there never was going to be much money in it. (According to my parents, we all made a little on it, especially its eventual sale.) I couldn't live as I do now if I was still working there for what I would be making, even if I owned it myself.

Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :

The best job I've had was pressing pants, once I trained my hands to do the work I could work on my stories in my head. I am a writer, even if I never make a dime at it, so is it my hobby? No. It is my major occupation, sure I hope to have a career at it, mostly so I can spend more time with it.

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

Astro Stewart, you've posed a question I've stewed about myself. While researching agents, I'm seeing a preference among them for career authors. Some agents at writer's conferences I've attended have all but come out and said they're not interested in the "flash in the pan" author, the one-book wonder. Is there no longer any room for another Margaret Mitchell? At least as far as agents are concerned? That'd be a shame.

Posted by rstegman (Member # 3233) on :

Publishers are interested in your second and third books, They have no interest in the first books.

I am not sure how it is today or in fantasy/science fiction, but in the late 90s, romance books gave $5000 for the first book. Period. Each subsiquent books increased in value. After you wrote several books, you could then nagotiate your rates on the books.
The reason for this was that with a first book, the publisher was taking all the chances and expenses on a book that might not sell. With each subsiquent books, the author developed a readership, people who would automatically pick up their books because they knew previous works by that author.
I know this works because I have entire series by Anne McCaffrey, Piers Anthoney, and several other authors. I saw their name and knew their books would be good reads.
There is a lot of publicity involved in releasing books. If the author writes more than one book, That effort is added to with each book.

"If you write, you are a writer. If you are not talented, you will not get published as often, or at all." -Orson Scott Card

I write because I love to write. There is an excitement involved with coming up with a new idea, and there is a satisfaction with seeing it complete. The faster between them, for me, the better.
I am more interested in developing the concepts than fine tuning them. I like production. I have tons of rough drafts.
My language skills are not where they need to be. My best edited piece is just below publishable quality. It has been a few years since I tried finish editing anything, but in rough editing pieces, I can see my language skills are lacking. Therefore, I am not yet published.
I work from the idea that I can spend my retirement editing my pieces to publication levels and make extra money that way.
I know it will not happen, though.

Posted by Alethea Kontis (Member # 3748) on :

rstegman, I have to disagree with that first line. Publishers are definitely interested in writers who keep on writing, but not all books are bought with a series or subsequent book in mind. It's part of the reason why some authors have been published by so many houses -- they keep shopping their stuff around no matter what. Heck, Dan Brown was with St. Martin's and then Simon & Schuster before landing DaVinci Code at Random House.

If publishers didn't want to gamble once in a while on--as Kolona so eloquently put it--a Margaret Mitchell-type book, then folks like me and Kate DiCamillo would have never been published.

Kate worked in a bookstore and handed the manuscript for Because of Winn-Dixie to a rep. They bought it immediately. Heck, I didn't even submit AlphaOops to the publisher. I gave it to a friend at work to read, and she passed it on without my knowing. I didn't have plans for any other picture books before then, and they didn't ask me if I did when they were gushing on the phone and begging me to publish my book. (It actually happened that way, no kidding. Talk about surreal.)

Miracles still happen in the publishing industry. Every editor wants to read that book that makes them laugh and cry and not want to put it down. And when they find it they will pubilsh that book, regardless of whether or not the author has previously written fifteen manuscripts or fifteen grocery lists.

They don't all fall in your lap, of course. I'm definitely paying my dues now,in spades. Kevin J. Anderson always says: "The harder I work, the luckier I get." Those miracles are out there, but sometimes you have to work to find them.

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

Alethea, you should do an article for a writer's mag about your sale of AlphaOops. I love that kind of success story and I'm sure others do, too. Especially the begging part.

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited December 08, 2006).]