This is: "Thousand Ideas in a Topic"!

QUESTION: MAGIC SYSTEMS

I've devised a magic system in which people manipulate the elements to do their bidding. Alas, I am STUMPED.

I'd like some friendly ideas on how the rules work. What must you do/say? What is the cost of magic? What are the short-term and long-term effects of magic? Does it unintentionally take lives?

Answer right away!

-Bean
 

1. Anyone can suggest anything.
2. No ideas on this topic are sacred. Anyone can use them in any story...no questions asked or accusations of stealing.
3. Someone (the person who posted the topic) should try to drive things. It is best to start with one questions (Like "What is the cost of magic?" Usually, once you get a few thoughts out there you might focus on one and ask new questions about it to drive down to more specific and more interesting ideas. People can follow the other "branches" independently, of course.

Anyway, that's just my experience. I'll go ahead and get the ball rolling...

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What is the cost of magic?

1. Cute, furry, and innocent creatures.
2. Sanity
3. Intelligence
4. Life (as in you cast a spell and you die a year sooner)
5. Body parts

[This message has been edited by Christine (edited October 01, 2006).]
 

Can you give us a little detail about your world? I think it matters what you're planning, when you pick the price-of-magic sysem.
 

wbriggs -- I read the book. It's my how-to-write Bible.
Also, the story idea is set in a world in which (thanks to goatboy's and Christine's ideas ) is ruled by a government entity of magicians known as Druids (this come from my Celtic heritage). Druids are the youngest sons of youngest sons. Water is considered sacred since it is the basis of magic. Now, these are times of war; the Druids are using as much magic as ever before. So, the Druids and the citizens are slowly beginning to die, and the only way to save them is for the Shamans (medical wizards) to discover a new way to use magic. In one point in the story, the barbarians are defeated. But, the Druids are growing insane and unhealthy, some even senile. They are turning on each other for magic and water. The city is waning. The water supply is almost gone, but the POV character (a Druid that is realizing his own insanity and fighting against it) tries desperately to save the citizens by commiting suicide, putting a significant amount of magic and water back. However, he has the murderous Druids right on his tail.

Christine -- I feel that number 2 is a very good cost as well. What if the constant use of magic drives magicians to the brink of senility? If I combound your's and goatboy's costs, maybe the insanity is adding to the animosity between magicians? And maybe the senile magicians are conspiring agaisnt each other, and an ancient society sworn to protect the city from rival barbarians has now gone on a rampaging killing frenzy for the last drops of magic in order to annihilate the barbarians and finally free themselves from insanity?

There are tons of possibilities. For more complex answers, email me at morningstar95@hotmail.com
If you're interested in my story, tell me! I want feedback!
-Bean

[This message has been edited by bean891 (edited October 01, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by bean891 (edited October 01, 2006).]
 

Aaaaaaand, I'm spent.
 

*Christine mentioned sanity. The Druids would slowly begin to become insane and conspire against each other, which goes directly into
*Goatboy's mentioning of the magic supply. The insane Druids murder each other for control of the last drops of magic, which leads to
*LPMcGill's loss of emotion theory. The once happy Druids would turn cold and stonehearted and eventually disregard the emotions of those around them.

These are all incredible ideas. Thank you for your input!

-Bean
 

In Warcraft there's the idea of magic addiction which causes a loss of sanity (similar to Lovecraftian stuff) and using it is like a giant neon "COME INVADE US" sign for demons.

In Shadowrun magic basically deals stun damage to the caster. If you try and do too much without resting you pass out.

The other thing to consider is who can do magic.

Is it genetic as in psionics, X-Men style mutants, the "knacks" in the Alvin Maker books? If so there's probably less ritual involved.

Or is it something that takes a great deal of learning? Can anyone of average / above average intelligence learn to cast spells if he has the right books and spends enough time? Then there's probably lots of motions and components and such.

Sometimes it's both, like in Harry Potter.
 

Any weapon worth its salt can be reloaded - well, except for grenades and other things that explode on impact. But a regular "weapon" like a gun, for instance, can be reloaded. If you use up all your magic, you're down to fighting with your fists, daggers, knives, clubs, machine guns if you can find them. So I think wizards would go to a LOT of trouble to work out a way to not use up their magic, or to replenish it quickly. Otherwise, by using it, they're shortening their lives or at least decreasing their ability to defend themselves. JMO

In the Harry Potter world, the kids do magic all the time in school while learning magic. If there was a "cost" of magic, they'd all have fairly short lifespans, especially those like Seamus, Neville, Ron and even Harry, who make so many mistakes before they get it right. In that world some wizards (like Dumbledore) live way past 100 years old (I think he's 170 before he dies? I could be mistaken there.) Dumbledore never seems to be weakened by doing magic despite his great age.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are many ways of doing magic in fiction, and not all of them require a "cost" of magic as far as I can see.

If you really want there to be a cost of magic, it should be renewable - if he loses energy from casting spells, then eating some special fruit, perhaps, or a steak tartare or something like that (liver!) should renew his blood and make his magic strong again. Otherwise, if I were a wizard and knew I only had a finite amount of magic in me, I'd hoard the magic and only use it when REALLY necessary. JMO.

Lynda

Lynda
 

[This message has been edited by sojoyful (edited October 01, 2006).]
 

Say you have a world where everyone lives at different levels, but there are ways in which you can move to a higher level by succeeding at various kinds of tasks for the benefit of society or you move to a lower level if you fail.

What if the price for magic was that you moved to a lower level, too? (So performing magic was akin to failing at a task.)

I need to think about this some more....
 

Lynda - Druids aren't common in battles in my world; that is what soldiers are for. Druids are only used for long term, devastating spells IN battle. Shamans are used to heal important soldiers/Druids. (pronounced droo-ids, not droids). There is a cost of magic in my world because magic is a sacred thing.

sojoyful - There IS a finite amount of magic, but the Druids know how to control their thirst for magic. But, the story is set in a time where they need as much magic as possible -- which is just the time they don't have enough.

Kadri - The magic is taught to youngest sons by their fathers: it involves reciting spells, which are usually poems or songs.

Lynda - Druids aren't common in battles in my world; that is what soldiers are for. Druids are only used for long term, devastating spells IN battle. Shamans are used to heal important soldiers/Druids. (pronounced droo-ids, not droids). There is a cost of magic in my world because magic is a sacred thing.

sojoyful - There IS a finite amount of magic, but the Druids know how to control their thirst for magic. But, the story is set in a time where they need as much magic as possible -- which is just the time they don't have enough.

Corky - Your magic rules interest me. I'll be sure to include it in my story, but the idea of the Druids sinking to lower levels isn't working for me. But, the citizens can reach higher levels.

Thank you for the ideas, this thing is going prefectly

-Bean

[This message has been edited by bean891 (edited October 01, 2006).]
 

My idea would be something more systematized, like you could never eat your favorite foods, or you had to pick only one. I mean, doesn't the idea of some kind of rigor and training appeal to most fantasy readers, rather than some kind of zero-sum power struggle for the most blood, water, or what have you?
 

I have used a system a little like what some people have already described, but maybe a little different as well. I have three types of magic, Spirit, Will and Mind. Spirit is for healing and saps the strength of ones soul, (and my story that I have this system in DOES involve souls), the Will is for destruction/chaos and saps the casters will of life and want to continue on living and Mind is for creation/construction and saps the persons sanity makes the person insane.

I also include physical exhaustion, so of course the system is like what people mentioned, maybe a lot more than I thought.
 

This sounds like an interesting system, BUT who's self-destructive enough to destroy his sanity or lose his will for living to do magic? Wouldn't observing this happening to other wizards make the "budding" wizard hesitate to cast spells? Or are they all so caught up in the magic they don't care that they're shortening their lives this way? Maybe it's a matter of perspective. If a writer is a young person, perhaps he or she has that "young person's perspective" of feeling invincible, so they write their characters that way? Whereas, I'm on the downslope of my mid-fifties and if I knew that doing a magic spell was going to shorten my life or make me more infirm in any way, I'd think MANY MANY TIMES before casting that spell, so I write my characters with magic that replenishes itself.

There are other ways than magic to do most things - you can use guns instead of magic for warfare, for example, or medicine instead of magic for healing. I simply don't understand a magical system in which the wizard is costing himself lifespan or health to cast his spells - if he were a bad student, he might not live long enough to become a mature wizard, having used up his magical essence, health and lifespan on badly-cast spells! This is how this system appears to me. Can someone explain the pyschology behind a system that uses up the wizard this way?

Magic makes sense to me the way it's presented in the Merlin stories and in Harry Potter - it doesn't "use up" the wizard, but is simply a part of him (it's in their blood, perhaps, which is a constantly renewed resource in the body). THAT kind of magical system I understand. I don't understand this "depletion system" of magic at all.

Sign me thoroughly confused,
Lynda

Consider, with every breath you grow older, you deplete your own life. With every mile you drive, you burn fuel, a resource that is simply gone. Food is limited, land is limited, air is limited. Why should magic be free?

Even in Harry Potter, it seems to me that magic has limits. Otherwise, Dumbledore would have simply cast a spell on page one of the first book which would have contained Voldemort so he could never do any more harm.

In a way, magic can be depleted in HP too, since a broken (or the wrong) wand can rob a wizard's strength. Even being too tired or wounded can serve as a cost. (Physical energy).

There are payments that are subtle and those that are blatant. Voldermort seems to have paid a more blatant cost for his magic, slowly turning into something non human. Who knows what Harry's cost will be?
 

Everything has a cost. If using magic didn't there would be no reason not to use magic to peel a grape.

The EarthSea books are a good example of not using magic unless there is a great need. Ged does magic to show off and unleashes a great evil on the world. Ged is mortally injured in the process. The archmage gives up his life to save Ged.

In my WIP, mages study to learn thier craft but call on thier own strength to weild the magic. As an example in order to heal a critically ill person, the mage must surrender his/her life. Headaches are often side effects of any difficult or sustained spell. The mage can render himself unconcious or lose the ability to do further magic if he overuses the power. Also, while everyone is taught the theory behind healing, only those people with a gift in healing can actually heal.

I really like the idea of a finite amount of magic being available and that supply dwindling.

 

My system works on the basis that each user's max power is only as strong as there is an amount of an element divided by the number of users of that element in the world. This means that Water users rule because the world has a lot of water, but as more water users are born, then everyone's power is weakened. So, also add in "users killing other users to gain their power" to the forces trying to go to war. The cost system uses a health/energy set-up, which means you have a magical energy reserve that works just like the amount of energy you have to do exercise (the more you run, the stronger and more endurant you become and then can run even further). However, when you run out of magical energy, you can convert your more potent lifeforce to magical energy, but that can kill you, especially when you are already injured. It is a simple, often used system, but the focus is meant to stay on cool fight scenes, epic battles, and the characters.
 

It's amazing how many different ways people come up with to explain how magic works. I particularly liked the water magic Mystic mentioned. That sounds logical and very cool! My brain doesn't seem to work that way. Hope you get it published so I can read it!

Oh, and wizards are very vulnerable in my fics - take their wands away and they're pretty much helpless. That's why it's handy that Merlin and my heroes are mages, who do wandless magic. (They're on a different skill/strength level than wizards, fairies, elves, etc. in my little world).

This is a fun discussion! I've learned some interesting stuff. Thanks for starting the thread!

Lynda
 

Thank you!!

-Bean
 

Let say that 'magic' or 'mana' or whatever, is a sentient force rather than an intelligent one. In that case it could respond to 'true intent' rather than to 'professed intent' etc. The bonus is that if you really mean it, the magic will seldom fail. It may even deliver better results than you could have imagined. The cost, however, is that if you engage in magics halfheartedly they either do not work or they respond to your 'true intent' rather than your stated one. It delivers what you really want regardless of whether that tallies with what you say you want.

This would mean simple things, ie lighting a fire, would be easy. More complicated tasks with areas of 'grey' or 'doubt' would be harder to effect.

Perhaps this is why magicians carry 'spell' books. They may be more like a journal of effects rather than spells and they may study them more for an understanding of what the 'magic' is telling them about themself and their hidden motives. Perhaps the more 'aware' a magician is of their 'true' intent, the more accurate and effective their magics are. This may take a lifetime to develop.

Did you know that the word 'spell' comes from a root word that mean story? That means a 'spell book' is literally a story book. In this case it could be the 'story' of their life. Imagine someone stealing your spell book? They may think it is a shortcut to greatness...

PS: Thanks to dictionary.com for this next bit: Origin: bef. 900; ME spell, OE: discourse; c. OHG spel, ON spjall, Goth spill tale.

PPS: BEANS, don't try to combine them all. Perhaps combine compatible elements, but don't try to be everything to everyone.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited October 02, 2006).]
 

How about just picking those that pertain directly to your original question on manipulating elements? Your magic system has a better chance of being understandable to the reader that way, and it will be easier for your characters (and you) to manage.
 

LPMcGill - Your idea would work perfectly in a story. Say a Shaman acts as Christ and takes on the pain of his city after a terrible plague, killing himself, but saving all others around him? Feel free to use my ideas, write a story, and e-mail it to me .

Kathleen - I'm honored to have you on this thread, and you are entirely right. I think what I was trying to say is I would like to make an amalgam of elements of magic system ideas and make a very interesting magic system. Also, I think I might ditch the idea of JUST manipulating elements (earth, wind, fire, water, light, aether, metal, etc.). For example, Shamans wouldn't be able to use the elements to heal people (in certain cases they could, but I'm speaking generally).

Thank you guys for the ideas. Tons of small ideas are germinating into story seeds. Anyone feel free to write, share, and critique!

-Bean

(My real name IS Trevor.)

[This message has been edited by bean891 (edited October 03, 2006).]
 

Ok, so you want a system of magic. Let's twist this topic a little and instead make it 'a system of magic which has many different rules depending on the perspective and culture which employs it, and the location and available resources.'

Ah ha! Now I'm getting needlessly complex! No, I think not.

Magic, in my opinion, is a mental art. People think differently, therefore, not all magic should be the same.

Let's take the people of the Pansua Plains. It is there belief that there is on singular god, and that god spits great fire across the land, warming the earth. It is their belive that this god gives them magical powers, therefore, for the Pansua people, by performing religious ceremony they can create great streams of fire. Tradition demands that there be five people in this 'ceremonial group' therefore, they are incapable mentally of creating fire in groups any more or less then five.

Now let's take the Tansu, who are are a 'viking' type society. They have many religions, many different points of view, yet they are *warriors*. They have been taught that by spilling the blood of enemies and eating their hearts, they will gain strength! They have been taught by raping a woman in a town they conquer, they will gain speed and stamina! They have special magicans, or seers, which gain magic through spells and potions, passed down from generation to generation.

Finally we come to the Farkens. They are civilized folk which believe in the Three Elements of Magic. White for Healing, Red for Destruction, and Black for Death. They have special schools that teach this magic, and they *know* that one cannot walk down the path of more then one element at a time or it will destroy them. Thus it is so.

Magic, maybe, should be governed by superstition, culture, tradition, as well as real life factors such as places on the planet where magic is stronger (through they don't know why), and education in magic. As for the actual real life 'how it works', maybe we can compare it to medicine in the middle ages or ironworking. There was a lot more 'guesswork' then 'knowhow' and that's what made it interesting (and oft fatal).
 

quote:

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This sounds like an interesting system, BUT who's self-destructive enough to destroy his sanity or lose his will for living to do magic? Wouldn't observing this happening to other wizards make the "budding" wizard hesitate to cast spells? Or are they all so caught up in the magic they don't care that they're shortening their lives this way? Maybe it's a matter of perspective. If a writer is a young person, perhaps he or she has that "young person's perspective" of feeling invincible, so they write their characters that way? Whereas, I'm on the downslope of my mid-fifties and if I knew that doing a magic spell was going to shorten my life or make me more infirm in any way, I'd think MANY MANY TIMES before casting that spell, so I write my characters with magic that replenishes itself.

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Didn't explain fully, I guess. Those in that certain story use magic only when needed, so the harmful side effects won't weary them or kill them earlier.

As for the young writer, I'm only 19, male and testosterone driven and sometimes think I'm invincible, so I believe that would reflect in my writing.

As for the young writer, I'm only 19, male and testosterone driven and sometimes think I'm invincible, so I believe that would reflect in my writing. <<

Ah. You proved my premise, then. If you were an ancient crone like me, your attitude would be different! LOL! Thanks for the explanation!

Lynda, who would've written a lot differently when she was 19, too.

-Bean

An idea I had along that route is that maybe magic is regenerative, like grass on the ground with different concentrations in different areas. It takes time to regenerate, but it is not different then magic anywhere else - it's merely how people use it. Maybe when one army comes forth using a totally different magic the other army is suprised when there is very little magical flow left? And that is why our protaganist begins to wonder about how magic works?

Hmm, well anyhow, just a random idea and worthless for what I'm working on right now. Take it if you want it, if not discard it. Either way I'll have changed it a million times over before I use it anyhow.