Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Submitting a novel to publishers

This is topic Submitting a novel to publishers in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by thexmedic (Member # 2844) on :

So I'm in the process of editing my novel (3rd draft is imminent), and I'm hoping to have it in a state to be submitted before the end of August.

I was checking out the web-sites for Tor and DAW (they being the first two fantasy publishers I thought of) and neither accepts simultaneous submissions.

Do you guys think it would be a better bet to send the manuscript to one of these and wait for a response or to ignore the big two and send it out to multiple, smaller publishers?

Thanks

Posted by pantros (Member # 3237) on :

If you are dealing with novels and major publishing houses, its best to work with an agent. If you are nearing completion of your third draft, now is the time to start finding an agent.

But, for a first novel, an agent is not always neccesary.

Send it to the big ones first, one at a time. Be patient. It takes years of active submission/rejection to get a novel published.

In the meantime try to get at least one short published somewhere. It will increase the chances of finding an agent.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I know what you are SUPPOSED to do -- start at the top and work your way down. Trouble is, places like Tor and DAW will spend a year with your novel (or actually, just with your query package) and in that time you are not allowed to send to another publisher. I'm to impatient.

I sent queries to agents. If anyone can get you in a big house, it will be an agent. in fact, that's about the only way you can really expect to make it happen. They get your story sent to the top of the sluh pile and know what strings to pull.

I didn't have a lot of luck with agents, either, without any publishing history. I got a lot of disheartening form responses...many so fast that they couldn't have possibly read the chapters I sent.

That's why I sent my novel to a small press -- it was actually only the second place I sent it but I thought (maybe correctly, who'll ever know?) that I had a real shot at getting publishered there and that I had no chance at the big houses.

Well, of course, the novel is getting published by the small press and I don't regret my decision to send it there without going to the big houses. It's goin to be a lot of work to push the novel, but I think it would have been at a big house too.

Posted by Jammrock (Member # 3293) on :

Just want to echo what others have said. You pretty much need an agent to get published at the big houses these days. Just be careful if you send your query package out to agents because there are hundreds of scammer agents out there waiting to prey on new writers.

Rules for an agent:

1) Anyone who charges you any fee or monies BEFORE he/she has sold your manuscript and has received a check from the publisher is a fake. [From what I understand, the publisher sends the check to your agent, who removes their fees from your advance/royalties (when applicable), and then sends you money within a month of receiving payment from the publisher.]

2) Anyone who charges to read your query package or novel is a fake.

3) Always research reputable agents and publishers before sending out query packages. Some good places to start look for known scammers and know good guys:

http://www.sfwa.org/beware/
http://www.sfwa.org/beware/agents.html
http://www.aar-online.org (usa)
http://www.agentsassoc.co.uk/ (uk)
http://www.sff.net/people/VictoriaStrauss/agentsearch.html

4) Research the standard terms that other writers of your level have recieved so you are prepared to nogotiate your contract terms when an agent accepts you as a client.

Hope that helps.

Jammrock

[This message has been edited by Jammrock (edited June 22, 2006).]

Posted by spcpthook (Member # 3246) on :

Haven't looked at their guidelines lately but I know Daw used to request the entire manuscript up front. No query. I think Tor was the same but it was my experience that DAW responded quite fast while Tor took several months. Of course Daw had the dubious honor of being the very first publisher I sent my MS to, before I learned I had a lot to learn.

That may have contributed greatly to the speedy response, but check out the black holes response time at the critters.org website to get a sampling of how long places keep MS.

Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :

I'd start at the top and work down, personally. Just start writing the next novel and you won't mind the intervening time so much.

By the way, a friend of mine who is an editor at Penguin Putnam says that they don't care if an author has an agent or not--if the story is good. But that authors with agents typically have a better edited manuscript and a more-compelling synopsis.

Posted by Swimming Bird (Member # 2760) on :

The simultaneous submission guideline is a joke. Not even the publisher's expect you to follow it. Don't box yourself in waiting a year for a rejections. Send it out to as many publishers as you can and if more than one wants to publish your work, pick one and then simply call the other publisher and tell them you've decided to go with another house and thank them for their interest in your work. It's not like they're going to make you stay after school for broadening your opinions.

Posted by Minister (Member # 2213) on :

No, but they may decide to never publish your work, and there's no guarantee that you won't be back to them with something else in the future. I've seen EXTREMELY irate remarks from editors about authors who ignore plainly stated guidelines, especially that one. They feel that the simultaneous submission of a piece wastes the time of every person who handles it, except the one who buys it first (that's assuming that it's good enough to sell on the first pass). If it isn't good enough to publish on the first pass, you might get feedback from the first place that makes the difference in acceptance at another. Thus, simultaneous submissions (even to places that accept them) can still drive your acceptance ratios down, especially if you sent it to all the decent markets in one shot.

All that said, speaking as a person with no novel publishing experience, I'm getting the very strong impression that the way to go is usually to target agents. They know the publishers way better than you do, often including what they've bought recently, what they need more of, who precisely in the organization to target the story to, etc. Sure, the publisher might not mind dealing with the author (who often might not know enough to negotiate the best possible contract), if they actually choose to publish the novel -- but the odds of it getting the best possible chance seem to come from a legitimate agent.

Posted by Swimming Bird (Member # 2760) on :

Publishing houses don't hold grudged, and the editor who worked there last year may not work there now. If you offer them a crack at your manuscript as an established author, after you turned them down to publish you the first time, they wouldn't flinch at taking a look at your work, especially over something so trivial. Publishers care about money, not hurt feelings.

Also, the chance of two major publishing houses wanting to publish your work simultaniously is so remote that it's not really an issue in the first place.

[This message has been edited by Swimming Bird (edited June 22, 2006).]

Posted by Minister (Member # 2213) on :

If I'm Dan Brown or J.K. Rowling (or any one of another couple hundred authors, perhaps), I can afford to risk annoying an editor by ignoring what he's asked -- he'll probably swallow his pride and do what it takes to get my business because my earlier books sold so well that he's willing to let go what I did. And sure, there's a chance that whatever editor saw my story in the first place won't be in the same place when my next story comes through looking for a home.

But if I'm a writer who sold a novel or two to another house, had middlin' sales (like many early novels), and for whatever reason need to send my next novel somewhere else, I'd rather not send it someplace where I've already deliberately flaunted what they asked for -- people do hold grudges sometimes, and often work on the assumption that if I won't comply with their submission requests, I might be a pain to deal with down the road on other issues.

Again, probably not a big deal if I'm Tom Clancy pitching my eighteenth novel. But if I'm me, pitching my second or third novel (assuming the first ones didn't hit the bestseller lists and make fistfulls of money), I want to keep every edge I can. And the fact that the editor may have moved on just means that I might run into someone who is already predisposed to dislike me somewhere I don't expect.

And finally, I'd be less concerned about this if I hadn't seen what some editors (admittedly largely in the short story arena, but not exclusively) have said. And I'm tellin' ya -- they were pretty emphatic about this. They don't have any shortage of material to consider for publication, so unless my story is so phenomenal that everyone wants it, I want to be mindful of anything I can do to give my piece an edge (or at least not hurt its chances).

Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :

SwimmingBird, I think the big thing that you aren't thinking about is that the publishing industry is not that large and they talk to each other. My aforementioned editor friend says that they do catch simultaneous submissions, not all the time, but the fact that it happens makes me not want to take the chance.

Posted by thexmedic (Member # 2844) on :

Thanks! This is really helpful stuff. Appreciate it.

[This message has been edited by thexmedic (edited June 23, 2006).]

Posted by Mig (Member # 3318) on :

It's also not professional. If someone wants to be a professional writer, they should act like a professional. IU think that a professional should obey industry accepted standards. Last thing you want to risk is getting a reputaion as a nonprofessional. If someone wants to be a writer for the long haul, waiting months for a reply is part of the business. Just submit and keep writing.

Posted by pantros (Member # 3237) on :

nicely said, Mig

Posted by Swimming Bird (Member # 2760) on :

I think the risk is so small that's it's worth taking.

I don't see it as unprofessional. I actually see it as rather naive to wait months for a single response. Not only is it counter-productive, it's a waste of time.

With agents, the general rule is to query wide regardless. They don't expect you not to, and you shouldn't limit yourself. With publishers, the chances are even more remote that two big names are going to be interested in your work simultaneously.

It really is a rule no one expects you to follow.

My experience is limited to the short story market, but I've sold stories to publishers I had to turn down before. They weren't spiteful. Publisher's do not turn down good stories due to grudges. They just don't. If you're a great writer, and your story is right for their journal, they will publish it, even if they think you're a poo-poo head. Granted, this is only for short story markets, where the level of close, personal contact is less than if would be with the publication of a novel, but the principal is still the same.

Donald Trump wouldn't pass up on the chance to make money buying a thriving business from a person, even is that person snubbed him at the Christmas party last year.

Also, if you sell a novel to one publisher, chances are you will be working with them for years to come on your second or third book. Finding another publisher isn't going to be an issue. And when it is, are editors (assuming the same ones still work there) really going to even remember that submission you sent in years ago?

And unless your story is particularly bad, or particularly good, the chances of two editors sharing stories about it over coffee are about as good as winning the lottery.

In the end, it really is up to the individual. I do it because I don't like sitting around for half-a-year waiting on a single rejection. And I think if every writer did, it'd take up to five or ten years to get a book published.

[This message has been edited by Swimming Bird (edited June 23, 2006).]

Posted by pantros (Member # 3237) on :

And yet, the agents and publishers who post here, disagree.

Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :

Try to get an agent. This a business and agents are the ones with the connections.

Writer's digest publishes a yearly book listing most (some of the very top notch ones are not listed in it) agents and publishing houses. Jeff Herman also has a great book. Both books will give you information about what to put in a query letter.

Sheri Babiski(sp) also wrote "An Idiot's Guide to Getting Published." Sheri is an agent herself and gives some great guidance about what agents are looking for.

Look at the books of published authors who have voices or styles similar to yours. Most of them thank thier agents in the forward so you have a name of someone who likes work similar to yours. When you then write that agent you can say . . "I am writing to you because you are Ms. X's agent . My work is similar to Ms. X's because . . . "

If you don't know who an agent is there are some online places -
like this one:
http://www.wrhammons.com/literary-agents-agent.htm

that list agents and thier clients.

Go to seminars where agents are speaking and meet them. If you meet them at a conference, you can write (in red ink) the conference name on the envelope, even bettter if the agent requests a query letter from you you can use the magic words "By Request." It gets you out of slush and onto the desk.

Finishing the novel was the easy part. Strap on your armor and wade into the field. Don't give up. Start working on the next project while trying to publish this one. If it's not this story now, it will be another one later.

As someone looking for an agent right now too, I wish you the best of luck. Hang in there.

Posted by Swimming Bird (Member # 2760) on :

quote:
And yet, the agents and publishers who post here, disagree.

And unless they speak for the entire publishing industry, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Posted by Sara Genge (Member # 3468) on :

I seem to recal reading a book about publishing in which they recommended dealing with the multiple submissions rule in a pragmatic way: send it to 4 to 6 eds, not more. That way you're still keeping it within the top level before working your way down, but you're not wasting months getting an answer. It is also less probable that a smalled house will take it (they move faster) before a big house has had the chance to accept it.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I have to say that when it comes to a QUERY, I am entirely annoyed at the publishing industry's insistence that I send one at a time. I'm not even sending them the novel...just asking them if they want to see the novel.

Annoyance aside, though, I'm afraid I'm playing their game and they made the rules. I'm just little old me.

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

That's why you shotgun pre-query queries.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

When that "agent submission" requirement started popping up, it discouraged me no end. Apparently you can't make a sale unless you've got an agent, and you can't get an agent unless you make a sale. The game is decided before you even step up to play. Or so the implication goes...

Multiple submission is something for the top pros to do when they (or their agents) are sending their current book around looking for the highest bid. They have the clout to make their own rules about marketing. For those of you looking for the first sale, I'd say forget it.

Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :

Almost all publishing houses will accept an unagented query letter even if they won't take an unagented submission.

Posted by thexmedic (Member # 2844) on :

Again: thanks everybody for the advice.

Related question: Can you send a query package to more than one publishing house that doesn't allow simultaenous submission? Or does the query count as the submission?

E.g. Can I send a query package to both Tor and DAW and if both showed interest (unlikely scenario courtesy of Wishful Thinkin 'R' Us) I would then send it to one and tell the other, sorry I've sent it to the other place and am awaiting feedback.

Posted by rickfisher (Member # 1214) on :

You can send query letters to anyone and everyone, simultaneously. But a query package is usually counted as "a submission" and isn't allowed simultaneously. Check the individual publishers (or agents). Some publishers don't want an unagented query package any more than they want an unagented complete manuscript. Lots of agents are open to packages without first getting a query letter, but many (most?) of them also don't want to get simultaneous subs even that way. Look them up online.

[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited June 25, 2006).]

Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :

Thanks for clarifying that, Mr. Fisher.

Posted by rickfisher (Member # 1214) on :

Think nothing of it, Mrs. Kowal.