The thing is, I want to set a story in an invented world where society is structured according to rules (the inhabitants all have a peculiar ability, but I wouldn't call it magic because everyone has it to some extent).

It's a mystery story in which magic doesn't intervene: although there are magicians, their abilities are not useful for investigating.

If it's got no magic and no myth in it, is it still fantasy?
 

I find humans to be very narrow in their thinking. I often hear books and movies sell because, "It's a lot like x but with a little bit of Y." Fantasy readers who buy a book labellled fantasy tend to expect magic. Well, we could poll some. There are certainly a lot of fantasy readers around here.

That said, I think the idea sounds refreshing and *I* would read it. Past that, I'm no expert.

There are two other labels that could apply: science fantasy (combines both genres) and slipstream (something speculative that doesn't really fit anywhere else.) I think you may be able to get away with slipstream, but I'm not sure how marketable that sub-genre is.
 

I've even tried to produce stories where, although the characters believe in magic, it's impossible for the reader to tell whether magic really works, or whether it's all twaddle. Kind of like the real world. That's pretty hard to do, though.

I've always had the basic problem with magic that if it really did work, and was readily avilable, then it would push society down a different path. Historically, those with power have always been able to acquire positions of temporal authority (whether warrior kings, or religious leaders), so social structures might reflect this. And you start having to work out, from a technological point of view, what inventions wouldn't occur if people could do magic, or which would have occurred much earlier, and so on and so forth.

It's a lot of thinking and taxes my poor little brain...
 

I personally don't like medieval world w/o magic, struggles of kingship and battles and so on, so I might not be interested. (If there are magicians, also: why *wouldn't* their abilities be useful in investigation? You'll need a good answer.) But I expect others would.

If Lost were a book, where would you shelve it? Unfortunately, answering that question is a little bit of a spoiler. I can answer now (I think), but I certainly couldn't when it had just started.
 

I fall into the converse category, ie, "sojoyful doesn't buy books labeled fantasy because they probably have magic in them." I hate magic. I want stories where people actually solve their problems. Magic seems like such a cheap solution:

Character 1: Oh no! We're trapped and the bad guys are bearing down on us!
Character 2: Well, I'll just whip out my magic shoe horn to turn us into birds so we can fly away while simultaneously destroying our attackers with a pulse of magic fire.

??? How is that satisfying?

That said, my definition of magic is very limited. I wouldn't consider the Jedi's use of the Force to be magic, but rather a set of special abilities. My own MC has a small number of unusual abilities, but they aren't magic. Also, consider that many stories from "real life" have magical elements- what's a miracle, anyway?

I'm sure there are books labeled fantasy that don't solve everything with cheap magic tricks, but I'm deterred from finding them by exactly the statement you made. My story is probably soft science fantasy, but I don't want it shelved with fantasy because of the negative (and stereotypical) view I have of the genre, but I know this view is incorrect and unfair.

What should you do, Silver3? Write your story, but don't try to write it to fit a particular category. Don't inject something into it that doesn't belong, and don't remove something that ought to be there. Whatever your story is, do it justice for what it really is. And write really good back-cover text to set it apart from it's magically saturated neighbors.

Then send me the title so I can read it, because I won't be looking for books in the fantasy section!

[This message has been edited by sojoyful (edited November 16, 2005).]
 

my two cents cubed.
 

As a reader, I expect books classified as fantasy to: 1) be set in a world with a low-level of technology. (I view motorized transportation as the break point between "fantasy" and "science fiction"); 2) to have elements of non-ordinary reality (as the shamans call it), meaning manipulation of energies through spellcasting, psychic powers, or simply unusual worlds/races (like faeries); to have a background "other world" feel to it, usually epic in proportions. The STORY can be focused on a single individual and a single event, but it needs to leave the reader with the impression the world, at large, is big.
 

The world in which fantasy takes place must seem mythical or fantastic. Magic is just an easy way to do this.

Even if magic is rampant in your world, at no time will any character be required to actively use magic.

Also keep in mind that any fiction set in Ancient Greece or Rome might have magic in it and be perfectly accurate historically. Magic can be nothing more than a perception.
The same concept can apply in reverse.

Without something fantastic or mythical, a fantasy story will be hard to separate from historical fiction.

And agree with Pantros.

Your world may be free from magic, it doesn't mean the characters believe it to be so or vice versa. (a la Megan Lindhome's Wizard of the Pigeons
 

I believe that fantasy can either have it or not.

Look at L. Sprague de Camp and Robert Howard. Conan to an extent didn't have much magic, but it was there when it was necessary. I have most of the original books of thiers and I like the way they are written.

Weiss and Hickman, the writers of the Dragonlance Trilogy. Magic is everywhere in the D&D worlds. Having played D&D myself, I enjoy the magical world because when magic is used properly, it can help you get away in time or heal the mighty fighter that has been hacking away at the enemy.

I'm sure there are other examples of fantasy having/not having magic. My stance on this is, if it has magic then it should be considered fantasy. If it has fantastic creatures it could be fantasy.

I like either, but IF there is little to no magic, the story should sell itself.

Feel free to argue with me or let me know if this helps any or just confuses everyone. I'll explain it further if need be.

Those are my two pence.

-Monolith-

I don't think magic has to be used in the traditional sense. All that needs to be done for a successful fantasy story is to present something in a unique and fantastical way.

[This message has been edited by luapc (edited November 17, 2005).]
 

I “can” enjoy Sci-Fi, Sci-Fan and pure Fantasy with or without magic. The important thing in holding my attention is the “use” of the world type and how well it is written. Both can be fantastic and gripping and I will comment in that regard.

Some of my favorite magic using authors and works are David Eddings’, Belgariad series; Raymond Feist’s, Magician series; Terry Goodkind’s, Sword of Truth series (books 1-5 – got a little dry after book 5—I experienced the same with Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time series, also at book 5); and Terry Brooks’, Shannara series.

In worlds that are rich with magic, I enjoy the writing whose use of magic is similar to how a carpenter uses his hammer, like tools. The trick then is writing in kind about a world that is just as rich and interesting in its “non-magic” as the worlds created by authors who do use magic. It can be done.

Luapc, illustrates a perfect example of a richly developed book series which used little-to-no magic. While the 'Dark Tower' series by Stephen King finished extremely strong, and was both gripping and immersive, 'The Gunslinger' (book 1) was a very dry read for me. However, in the final chapter, King opened up the concepts of his universe that gave us a glimpse of the foundation for the rest of the series. Worth noting is how well books 4-7 turned out.

My favorite single book for non-magic science fiction would have to be ‘Ender’s Game’ by our beloved Mr. Card (go Cougars).

My favorite non-magic fantasy is the Fire and Ice series by George RR Martin. George RR Martin’s work I believe is very akin to what you’re working on and the first in his book series is called ‘A Game of Thrones’. I highly recommend you read it if you have not already.

For a single book Fantasy I really enjoyed ‘Gord the Rogue’ by Gary Gygax. Not much magic because the main character is a rogue, and uses his finely honed skills in place of a magic-wielders magic.

In answer to your your first question "yes", IMHO if done correctly a non-magical fantasy world can be just as entertaining as the magical fantasy. And to your second question, yes, I believe that anything set in a mystical world of swords and sorcery is Fantasy.

[This message has been edited by D_James_Larkin (edited November 17, 2005).]
 

Anyway, magic or not, a good story will sell. What you or the publisher want to call it doesn't really matter. It's all speculative fiction, so I wouldn't worry about it and write whatever you think the story is about.
 

"The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed." I mean, that honestly doesn't seem like a great opening line when I look at it, but it's one of the few I've vividly remembered years after having read the book. Goodkind's "It was an odd looking vine" of Wizard's First Rule is another.

Anyway, I still haven't finished the series (have to get the last two books), but I highly recommend it, particularly if you want to see a unique setting where the idea of "magic" is handled in a refreshing way.
 

I think that one of the successes of really good fantasy is that it doesn't go out of its way to emphasise magic. Whatever the particular story's cosmology and physics and psychology, it just runs in the background like that constant 60 cycle hum in our own lives.

[This message has been edited by keldon02 (edited November 20, 2005).]
 

Also, I think it counts as magic even if it is commonplace in that setting. So I guess my answer would be, no, a fantasy story doesn't have to have magic, but yes, it sounds like your (the original poster's) story has magic.