Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Critiquers who DESERVE to be argued with

This is topic Critiquers who DESERVE to be argued with in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/writers/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002610

Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :

We've done the 'arguing with critiquers' thing over and over and over--which is WONDERFUL, as each new crop of members need that bit of education--but what about critiquers who just NEED to be slapped down?

And I know we've also done the 'how to critique politely' thing, but perhaps it's time to resurrect that idea, and bring it to the attention of another crop of newbies.

So my thoughts on the subject...

1. If someone gives you rude feedback, DO NOT RESPOND. Let someone else do it for you. There will almost always be someone who will be willing to do so. Review the 'Arguing with Critiquers' thread. Again.

2. Keep comments polite, supportive, helpful. Not, "Give me a break! You expect me to believe that this guy stuffed himself into a mason jar? That sucked!" Instead: "I just wasn't convinced that your character could stuff himself into a mason jar. Show me how it's possible."

3. Explain WHY, specifically, you feel a certain way about a certain aspect of an author's writing. Not: "I didn't like it." Instead: "I didn't like it because..."

4. I often feel compelled to nip rudeness in the bud perhaps earlier than others might. Why? Having learned from experience, it's just best to take care of problems before they become PROBLEMS. Every one of us is an example to the others. If we let ONE person get away with rudeness or crass or inappropriate behavior, than someone else will get it in their head(s) that this sort of thing is acceptable around here. It's not. If it were, I wouldn't be here. It's what I LIKE about Hatrack. That I don't have to worry about being berated. that I don't have to subject myself to unnecessarily harsh comments.

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

I once got a snarky crit. It was probably the snarkiest of snarky crits. It actually turned me away from writing for months, since I had some respect for that person until that fateful day. Heck, it turned me off from critiquing for nearly as long. I'm still not sure I've recovered from it fully.

So, let me add something to the above:

If you don't like the author, their views or your presumptions of their views, and anything else about that author, please avoid critiquing their work. Or else that author might get comments like:

"... therefore all your attempts to make me sympathize with her [...] fell entirely flat. It's like hearing the tearful apology of a serial killer. Poor baby! I suggest that you go back and start again."

So, don't let your personal feelings get in the way. Okay, folks?

Posted by hoptoad (Member # 2145) on :

I remember that one.
It was a blinder.

On another note.

I have also learned, (and recently relearned), that no matter how funny you think your comments might be, there is no room for slick one-liners when critiquing someone else's work. It will almost always be seen as mockery.

To go along with what HSO said about not letting personal feelings get in the way: sometimes we receive a snarky crit and put up with it only until the opportunity to retaliate arrives, thinking, 'they can dish it out, but can they take it?' If we look at it honestly, our response is almost always an escalation in order of magnitude. So to start down the track of crispy or snarky critiques can wind up like a hillbilly feud, you never know where or from whom the next potshot will come.

Sometimes, for whetever reason, no-one steps up to defend an author who has received rude feedback, and they are left swinging in the breeze with a big 'thank you for your critique' sign around their neck.

I have given some crispy critiques in the heat of the moment, and have ALWAYS regretted it. Maybe not exactly what I said, but the way I said it. (In one particular case I regretted it as soon as I pressed the send button and felt compelled to send pathetic, follow-up apologies, that I knew would never quite erase the damage.)

HSO : I have had some crits do the same thing to me. One took the wind out my sails for a few (nine) months.

Edit: paragraphs rearranged to improve idea sequence.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited November 11, 2005).]

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Oh, I'm all for arguing, whichever end of the critique I happen to be on. Rudeness, however, doesn't merit any further comment. If a comment about a story is rude, it's best not to reply---again, from whatever end of it you happen to be on.

Posted by JmariC (Member # 2698) on :

Just for the purpose of being overly anylitical:

Agrue: No! You're wrong! I'm Right!

Debate: Ok, I see where you're coming from. As I see it though....

I support debate in almost all things (except grenade throwing and nascar).
I would love to be able to say to a critic, "Ok, I see. But did you notice this was written OMNI? If not, how can I make it more obvious?"
Or
"I was going for simple and plain, actually. Besides that, what was more special about the room being white than that it was a hospital room, which is normally white? Am I missing something?"

And so on.

I would like to ask these questions and get responces like. "Omni? Oh. Well, if that's what your aiming at you might put in a sentence or two where the narrator speaks to the audience directly. It would make it more obvious."
Or
"Everyone who reads science fiction knows that a white room is a metaphor for sex, so you can't just have a lonely alien there without sex. Oh, or gore."

Things like that would help me learn.

As for bad critiquers (of which right now I'm not doing alot of feed back looking, so I have only a small pool of nice people to hear from and haven't experienced anyone being rude) I support that if Author gets a response for Critiquer that is not productive, not help and only serves to hurt, muddle and self inflate that Random Good Citizen should take the task upon themself to point out that the words offered where not helpful, and if possible explain the difference or give an example of how it could have been better phrased, then Random person should give their own feedback to the Author and Bad Critiquer should be ignored as a troll for as long as they continue bad behavior.
I don't think the Author should be the one to give the lesson, that can lead to bad habits like sending arguements(hatemail) to reviewers.

Posted by hoptoad (Member # 2145) on :

I didn't know a white room was a metaphor for sex.
Do I need to get out more?

What about a room wallpapered with giant huckleberry hound images?

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited November 13, 2005).]

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

Are we doing a bit of introspection here?

Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 2067) on :

That really changes the way I look at Jack Bruce...

Posted by keldon02 (Member # 2398) on :

Excellent points JmariC, though I wonder about whether more harshness might be lack of skill critiquing rather than outright trollishness?

My thoughts were that writing is a learned skill but so is the stiyle of critique which is customary here. So this leaves a lot of room for hurt feelings all around unless there is a certain common agreement on the forum that not only are many of the writers struggling amateurs but so are many of the critics.

It hurts to have something you've worked on for ages really get a harsh or un-understandable critique but it would hurt more to finish and send in a story with problems. It may be that the one doing the critique might have a lot of experiance as a reader but not so much as a critic? Or they might have experiance in a different field of endeavor where the customs and courtesies of criticism are normally more emotionally neutral and assumed to be more blunt than is sometimes the case with struggling writers?