Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Used Books

This is topic Used Books in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

There's an article in the September issue of Writer's Digest entitled "At What Cost?" by James Grippando. In it, he argues that authors and publishers don't make any money from used book sales, or on resale of books on the Internet, specifically the used books and "remainders" sold on sites like Amazon.

Remainders are sold at cost when publishers dump books they no longer wish to store into the used-book pool, some, as Grippando points out, "as early as one day after its release."

What may happen is that "...publishers may...publish only those authors who can earn the bulk of their advance in the first few weeks...so fewer authors will get published."

That means less profit for writers, publishers and face-to-face booksellers, as well as less choice for readers.

Grippando's suggestion? Go to a bookstore and buy a new book.

Posted by Varishta (Member # 2789) on :

quote:
Go to a bookstore and buy a new book.

I wonder if he's on Barnes & Noble's payroll....

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

Used book stores have been around forever. Where does Grippando suggest I buy a crisp, clean copy of something written by, say, Lester Del Ray? How about Cordwainer Smith?

Posted by Lord Darkstorm (Member # 1610) on :

I guess some people can't remember that some books are no longer in print, and used book stores are the only way to get them.

Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :

Clearly he's not stupid and his point is valid, if something is in print. There are many independant bookstores that are going out of business because of cheap online books, so it's affecting folks across the gamut of book sales. Nothing wrong with pointing out the hole in the system.

He compares it to what was happening with the music industry and downloads. Mostly the article seems to be trying to raise folks awareness of the fact that buying remaindered books is hurting authors. I think ultimately he wants to see a system in place like the one for downloads which is ultimately about getting money back to the artist.

I check all of my books out at the library and have sometimes thought about sending an author a check because I want to be supportive, but I have to control my book habit somehow.

Posted by JRune (Member # 2835) on :

Here's how it breaks down for me:

Out of Print Books: Used bookstore
Second or higher press: Used bookstore
Brand new, release in the last year: Used bookstore
Brand spanking new, not yet released: Used bookstore

Most used bookstores have new catalogues and will sell you the book close to cost for doing business with them. I will buy from them rather than a major chain because those discounts the chain offers don't come off their end: they come off the publisher's end and out of the author's pocket. Sure, I *could* buy a spanking new issue of the latest and greatest Discworld novel for $14.95 at Barnes and Noble. But for $15.95, I can get the same book at the same speed, put money back into my community and pass it up the line to the author.

Used bookstores have no positioning power. They can't force a publisher to grant them bulk discounts that allow them to absurdly slash their prices for people that buy their $25 membership cards. New bookstores are the bane of a good author's existence.

If they want to make a bigger profit, the best thing to do is to sell copies of their book online pre-autographed for a slightly higher margin + S&H. That and merchandising. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd be willing to dish some dough on an autographed copy of Ender's Game. Or a licensed graphic novel published by an indie press like OniPress or Avatar Press.

Honestly, these authors just aren't businessmen. All they see is "money I'm not getting", not "fans I'm collecting who might be willing to buy my next work brand-new." Short, narrow-sighted and silly they are.

Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :

The point was: remaindered and used books don't generate profit for the author, so to support authors we should buy them new. Interesting how you shifted blame to authors for not doing enough of the publisher's job of selling books. Those silly authors.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I know this probably is a bit of a...it's not something that someone in my situation should be saying, but here it is.

Writers aren't trying to make money. Sure, it's nice to get a check now and then, and it's fun to have money. And it hurts to think that people are stealing from you. But writers aren't in it for the money. That's why vanity presses are able to take advantage of so many novice writers, most wriers want to be published more than they want to be paid.

Nobody that has the chops to really make it as a writer is destitute of skills that could get them much more renumerative employment. The truth is that we want to be paid mostly so that we know people take us seriously.

But I'd rather have people read my work than pay for it. I don't want to write the sort of book that people buy and then put on their shelves unread. I don't want to get paid grants for "being a writer" and then churn out unreadable "art" that nobody even buys.

I don't want to be a supporter of something that will decrease literacy and shrink the pool of readers, even if I'm somehow benefiting from it. And shutting down used bookstores...it would be worse than closing down all the public libraries. I'm quite serious about that.

Now, publishers and large chain bookstores pulling mean tricks on each other, I'm okay with that. Publishers sometimes dump a book on bookstores that is simply a loser all round, sometimes the bookstores take what they think is the logical course of action. They do it too often, they'll get in serious trouble with that publisher, and both sides know the score (though they may be counting it slightly differently, which is why things like that happen). I could wish that business were a nicer game, but it isn't. And it doesn't much concern me either way.

I'm a writer.

Posted by electricgrandmother (Member # 2713) on :

Though most may not be writing and publishing (at least initially) for the money, don't forget that a good portion end up writing books as their day job and have to be creative to supplement their "lifestyle".

I know of some writers who end up selling their books (e.g. rare or autographed copies) via e-bay or some other outlet to fund trips to the dentist, or some writers who have had fund raisers set up so they can pay their medical bills.

Of course, these sorts of issues begin to start touching on problems that aren't directly concerned with where we buy our books, but it's still something to think about in my mind.

Posted by JmariC (Member # 2698) on :

I can understand where you are coming from with "Writers aren't trying to make money."
Most writers are not trying to get rich, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they aren't trying to make money. I don't know of any writer who enjoys having a day job and trying to make a novel.
Writers have to eat and have shelter, and they want to get enough money from writing so that they have all day to dedicate to the art. Sure, it doesn't overnight and many writers have to continue working in some other field until writing will support them, but generally the goal is to live off of writing.

Posted by JOHN (Member # 1343) on :

The same argument can be made against the library, and I ain't going to stop going to the library for nothing.

As a writer, albeit unpublished, if I could make a decent living I don't think I'd care how people found my work. I know this is gonna sound pretentious as hell, but I'd like to think of myself as an artist, and the art, not the almighty dollar, is what matters.

JOHN!

Posted by JmariC (Member # 2698) on :

I think I might have missed something there, John.
I was not argueing against anything, I was stating that there is a line between making money and being rich. Most actors do films not for art (or making money), they do it for fame (or being rich).
I am not against used bookstores or libaries. I was, honestly, nitpicking a particular point brought up by Survivor's post.

Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :

Look! Folks, no one is saying that used book stores should be shut down. That would be stupid.

If you want to put your money into the community and get money to the author, go to an independant bookstore instead of a chain.

If you want to buy a used book, fine. No problems. The article's main point is that there ought to be a system in place to make certain that money gets back to the authors from the discount chains. A remaindered book enters the used book world without the author ever seeing any money from it so only the publisher and the bookstore make money. That's all. Before the online world made it easy to dump remainders, any used book you purchased had already sent money to the author from it's first sale. With remainders, that's not true, they don't see any money from it at all.

quote:
Most actors do films not for art (or making money), they do it for fame (or being rich).

If that were true, there would be no extras in film. You are thinking of stars, and most of them got into it because they loved the art. But once you've decided on acting as a career it's a job, and you've got a career track, both of which involve getting paid.

What is wrong with wanting to be paid? What is this huge prejudice about not giving authors money because they should be writing for the love of it? Why shouldn't people be able to make a living from something they love?

Posted by BuffySquirrel (Member # 2780) on :

My suggestion? Grippando sends me enough money that I can afford to buy new books.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Working in a used book store is my all time favorite job among all the ones I've worked. (What I do now pays well and has excellent benefits, but has little else to recommend it, certainly not the job or the bosses---what I won't do to maintain an indulgent lifestyle.)

A book is manufactured and sold, and the author (if his contratcts are drawn right) gets his cut on that---once. And that's it. A book is an artifact, like any other. Do the auto manufactures get a cut when you sell a car you bought from them? Does a homeowner kick over something to the builder when he sells?

More relevantly, does a library pay off authors every time a book is taken out by a patron? Should it be forced to? What'll that do to operating expenses?

As for my library, well, it's the out-of-print titles that built up the bulk of it. I doubt if I could ever have cornered half the books I wanted to read if I'd been confined to new (or full-price) books. I mentioned my affection for Ace Doubles in another thread: in my entire life, I bought only one of them brand new. All the others were used.

Trying to make somebody pay out for buying used would just be another barrier between an author and his readers.

Posted by JmariC (Member # 2698) on :

I have no problem with writers making money and even becoming wealthy off thier craft if they are good at it.
As far as extras on films, if you did a survey almost all would say they are looking for fame. Few would say they want to stay as an extra. Stars have already become famous (and rich).
Of course if you ask anyone they will say that they would like to be rich. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, either.

Posted by Paul-girtbooks (Member # 2799) on :

Bottom line is, yes, we buy out-of-print books from used bookstores but some folks buy newish titles when they turn up secondhand simply because they don't have the disposable income to lay out $25 for one of their favorite author's books.

In the end it all comes down to money: the author isn't getting enough of it and sometimes their readers simply don't have it!

Posted by Smaug (Member # 2807) on :

This is my take: if I really need a book and I'm broke (which I generally am and can't even afford the used ones I buy), I go to an online site like bestwebbuys.com or half.com and try and find the book as cheap as I can get it.

However, I do buy new books at times as well. It's just that sometimes finances dictate the choices I have to make. That means, if I want to sell my work and find a great book that will help me do that (such as Ben Bova's "The Craft of Writing Science Fiction That Sells" which I bought recently at half.com for a little over four dollars), I need it right then, regardless of how I get it (other than stealing it). If I found it at a yard sale, that would be perfect for me.

Shane

Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :

I will keep saying this. The article was talking primarily about REMAINDERED books sold online. Not used book stores.

quote:
Remainders are sold at cost when publishers dump books they no longer wish to store into the used-book pool, some, as Grippando points out, "as early as one day after its release."

I think the suggestion that we all buy new books instead of old is silly. But the suggestion that the way remaindered books are handled is unfair I think is sound.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I agree that dumping books is a dirty trick. But it's not something that writers and readers can change. Really, the solution is to stop buying books from publishers that do that sort of thing, and to stop selling your books to them too. Look for a publisher that will really publish your book.

Hey, if a someone dumped my book, and a lot of people bought it and loved it anyway, I'd be quite put out about it being dumped but I'd be very happy about all the people that read it. The two are entirely separate issues in my mind.

That is just me. I happen to think that there are worse things than for writers to have "real" jobs or support themselves by means other than writing. My dream is to live mostly on roasted coyote et al and only use my writing income for small luxuries in celebration of being a beloved author

Okay, so the roasted coyote thing is probably not going to happen, if I want to remain a law abiding citizen...wait, "remain"? Okay, become a law abiding citizen

The point is that, while I don't have a problem with anyone trying to make a living off of writing, I don't believe that's the only important consideration in reforming publishing. It's nice to make it so that people can live off their writing, but just about everything else about writing is more important to me.

Posted by MCameron (Member # 2391) on :

Survivor, you want roasted coyote just come visit Arizona. There's no bag limit on coyotes, and I know several hunters who would be perfectly happy to give you one to roast.

Unless you are referring to coyotes: drug runners/human smugglers. If that's the case, I'm sure there are plenty of people in southern Arizona who would be happy to give you one to roast and eat, but it certainly would not be legal. There would probably be unpleasant repercussions from the other smugglers as well.

--Mel

[This message has been edited by MCameron (edited August 27, 2005).]

Posted by Mystic (Member # 2673) on :

I read that article, too, but I thought he had a really good point. If I write a novel, get published, but it is overproduced and all the unsold books goto a variety of used book stores, then I deserve a cut of the pay if those books are picked up a few years later. He's not talking black and white.

He agreed that used book stores should exist, but felt that a person buying the Harry Potter book, then reselling it to another person without giving Rowling a cut of his sales is wrong. I think that only out-of-print books or books that exceed a few years of age, relative to their popularity because if a book is still flying off shelves for twenty years, then it isn't "old", are fair game for used book stores.

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

Mel, I used to get coyotes (4-legged variety) running up and down my street. There ain't much meat on them bones. You don't see them much since the finished the Loop 101. I think I've seen more roadrunners in the last three years than I've seen coyotes, and those are pretty scarse as well. He'd be better off hunting the quails that are everywhere.

As for the remainders, I haven't read the article yet, so I don't know if this was addressed, but I suspect a lot of those remainders are from books that did not sell out the advance, therefore the author has, in fact, been paid.

[This message has been edited by Spaceman (edited August 27, 2005).]

Posted by MCameron (Member # 2391) on :

Yes, quail are quite tasty. But that's not what he said he wanted to eat. Besides, quail have a bag limit. I bet you could get several meals off of a coyote, if you were so inclined. I live on a four-acre property with state trust land less than a half a mile away on three sides. I hunt cottontails all the time (with an air rifle so that it's legal) and they are pretty skinny things. But you can still get a meal off of all but the smallest of them. So Survivor could probably get at least a couple of meals off of each coyote. And on the plus side, he could just make a pile of the bones and skin and that would attract more for him to eat. Or so I've been told by people who hunt coyotes.
[/derail]

--Mel

Posted by Varishta (Member # 2789) on :

There's a dead coyote on the road to my house; I could ship it UPS.

Returning to the topic, though -- the publishing industry's always been a bit of a mystery to me. I'd like to help authors to
retain as much of their deserved money as possible, but who am I to know if any of the statistics are true?

It reminds me of the diamond industry: lots of numbers and charts and regulations, but in reality much of it is very murky, indeed.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Mel, your very sharp. However, Varishta gets points for recognizing that my personal lifestyle preferences aren't the issue here.

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

Now, that would make one entertaining thread.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Wouldn't it, though? But we already did the Quest for Survivor, I think it's too soon for "A day in the life" or anything like that.

Posted by Smaug (Member # 2807) on :

You mean if I sell a book at a yard sale, the writer deserves a cut? No more than if I sell a lawnmower and the manufacturer deserves a cut. The book has already been purchased once new. That's where the writer's cut comes from.

Shane