A phrase in Martin's Game of Thrones series keeps striking me as odd, though I understand the meaning. Tyrion Lannister says it frequently: "Would that it were."
This has me confused on some specific uses of 'were' instead of 'was.'
I understand the normal conjugations (I was, you were, she/he/it was, we were, they were, etc) but I can't seem to find in my Writer's Reference book anything about the use when it's something like 'Were it like that.'
Saying 'Was it like that' turns the phrase into a question, and saying 'If it were like that' seems like it makes less sense than 'If it was like that.'
So, which is right? And does anyone know of a good guide, or even the technical name of what's confusing me?
Thanks.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
Check your dictionary. In this case, the applicable point is that "were" is being used in the subjunctive mode.
Posted by Varishta (Member # 2789) on :
Martin uses a lot of archaic constructions to give his world an old, well-worn flavor.
"Would that it were" is a way of saying, "If only..."
Take this bit from Dante's Inferno:
quote: And if now it were, it would not be too soon. Would that it were so! -- Canto XXVI
It's not used much these days, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
The subjunctive mood describes a hypoethical.
If only I were rich.
"Would that it were" follows the same path...it's a hypothetical. It's not, but would that it were...
If you look up subjunctive mood on the internet, you can probably find some references that are more complete than my brief synposis.
Posted by cklabyrinth (Member # 2454) on :
I still use the subjunctive mood, apparently.
I'm trying to put a word to most parts of speech. I'm tired of understanding how to use something, but having no idea what its name is.
Thanks all for the help.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
That's why we have dictionaries.
Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :
...and you use the subjunctive mode when it's something hypothetical that is not true. "Wish you were here."
If the hypothetical is true, or might be true, you'd avoid it (as I did just now, saying, "If the hypothetical IS true," not "If the hypothetical WERE true").
Posted by cklabyrinth (Member # 2454) on :
Survivor, I'm sorry. The only dictionary I have is a small paperback one which I bought at Wal-Mart and leaves a lot to be desired.
I suppose instead of posting trivial quesitons here, next time I'll drive seventy miles to the nearest bookstore that sells a respectable dictionary. Or take a course on learning to search the internet.
I'm quite stupid, as you can see. Thanks for finally making me aware of it.
[This message has been edited by Varishta (edited August 25, 2005).]
Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :
I have always maintained that there are no stupid questions... (beyond the "Why limit the F&F to 13 lines?" question.)
Questions about most topics always generates some interesting discussion. I like that expression "Would that it were...." it adds that archaic feel fantasy strives for without being too obscure.
I try to really watch my language and use older sounding words. An example is I use "jest" instead of "joke". I'm always on the lookout for simple ways to flavor my text with the feel of a fantasy milieu.
Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :
It's easy enough to find out what "subjunctive mood" means via google or any of a gazillion reference books or web sites. But I don't know of any good way to know that "would that it were" is subjunctive unless you're already familiar with the concept of the subjunctive. I'm a pretty big fan of people doing their own research before asking for help but I'm not sure how you'd start researching something like that.
chris: this is what you need to know about searching on the internet: www.google.com. type in "subjunctive mood." voila. You might also be interested in the book "Researching Online for Dummies," by Reva Basch. The version I have is pre-google, so a lot of the techniques are practically Amish, but the material on how to think about framing your research question is still sound. Or perhaps Reva's produced a more current version; not sure.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
You just type "were" into the dictionary Varishta linked. The "answers" site gave the same information, though the "thesarus" said something so insane I'm inclined to wonder about the worth of that site.
Anyway, stop relying on that paperback if it doesn't have a proper definition of "were". You're a writer, you need access to a reasonable dictionary that can tell you what a word means and what part of speech it is. There are plenty available online for free, though I prefer using my PowerCD one.
Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
quote:I have always maintained that there are no stupid questions...
...only stupid people.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
mmmmmmmmm
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
I'm tempted to ask how a question about the grammatical properties of "were" (and where to find such information) could possibly have gotten KDW's attention so quickly.
I mean, my response to the question seems to be a factor somehow, though I had no idea that suggesting that a dictionary is a useful reference for writers could be offensive or even contraversial.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
What got my attention was "stupid people" which could be taken personally and thereby lead to a flame war.
Posted by yanos (Member # 1831) on :
I seem to remember that Amazon delivers books and dictionaries. If you want to buy a reasonable that is.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
Or you can go with a computer based dictionary, I prefer these since I can access them easily while I'm writing. Paper dictionaries are mostly good for playing the dictionary game.
