Hatrack River Writers Workshop: A Question For Novelists About Secrecy

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Posted by Varishta (Member # 2789) on :

I've heard that when writing a first draft, you shouldn't show your work to a living soul until it's finished.

It's a good suggestion for many, many, reasons, and this thread isn't to debate the merits of first draft secrecy; all I'd like to know is, how do you cope with not sharing a story for the weeks, months, or years it takes to complete it?

Do you just somehow get used to keeping the MS to yourself, or does it nag you like mad no matter how experienced you are?

Posted by benskia (Member # 2422) on :

I think the primary reason for that rule is regarding not telling your mates what your story is about.

I cant remember where I came across this, but it's got something to do with you never being able to make your novel sound good in general chit-chat.

Being a novice, working on my first novel, I cant wait to get feedback on what I've done so far. I have no idea whether it's good or bad, so would like to know whether i'm working on a crock of rubbish before putting a year or so into the thing.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I don't keep my novel a secret per se. I find I don't often talk about it because, as
benskia pointed out, I can't make it sound good when I'm talking about it. I try, but somehow, particularly before it's done, I don't have that zippy one-line thing you're supposed to have. I end up saying something lame, trying to justify its value, and then giving up.

I do, however, share it with people whose advice I value for critique. My first draft is almost always a half draft anyway, no matter how carefully I outline and plan. By showing the first few chapters, even, to someone I trust I can work out what needs to happen differently in draft two to plow all the way through.

Secrecy can sometimes help you to get the novel finished, because you're not caught up with looking back at previous errors that you're itching to go back and fix. Talking about it may also convince you to start over again and again and again. So the advice isn't bad, but it's not a hard and fast rule. Sometimes you need to recognize when you need ot let the cat out of the bag...to get help!

Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :

I think that if you don't need input to draft a credible novel, then by all means keep it to yourself and suffer in silence.

However, if you're like most of us and are learning the craft, I think it is a basic mistake to 'keep it secret' and you deserve to suffer in silence.

How best to suffer in silence? Think about something else.

[This message has been edited by mikemunsil (edited August 19, 2005).]

Posted by dpatridge (Member # 2208) on :

I've never heard this... and I don't personally follow it either. I show everything I do to my family as I do it. And if any friends ask me about what I'm working on I'll pull out the newest printout of my current WIP.

As for the internet... well, yeah, I don't start doing anything with folks on the internet till it's done. Well, other than discussing some of it's contents. And sometimes giving examples where I'm discussing a particular device and want to demonstrate what I mean.

Family and friends aren't critiquers though, at best my Dad and Mom are good at being grammar and style nazi's, but don't really understand story structure. All my other friends and family don't even know that much. I have a sister that does FanFics, and a niece that I have no idea where she is, but she claims to want to be a writer.

Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :

yeah, like everything else, Your Mileage May Vary. Some people find that if they tell the story to a friend, they've used up all their telling and lose interest in the novel. Other people find that if they tell the story to someone and the other person is not 100% enthusiastic and supportive, they're crushed and put the novel away and never pick it up.

Other people can't write in a vacuum and need to tell people what they're doing, or feel that they need to get perspective/help on an outline before investing more time.

If you're the latter kind of person, don't try to act like the first kind of person! It will make you crazy. Do what works for you.

Posted by Keeley (Member # 2088) on :

I haven't sold any novels yet, but only because I haven't felt I have a commercially viable product. Just so you know before you read my opinion.

I don't discuss my first draft or let anyone read it until it's finished because if I know someone is going to be looking at it, my internal editor comes out. I stop having fun and that shows itself through stiff prose and a reduced daily word count. For me. Others may be different.

Would like to add that I do share my first draft with someone if I think there's a problem.

[This message has been edited by Keeley (edited August 19, 2005).]

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

I don't talk about my stories, because I don't want to take captive audiences and be a bore. But I do share them with critiquers, and I don't keep secret what I'm working on. If someone asks, I'm thrilled.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

In ON WRITING, Stephen King recommends keeping the door shut while you write the first draft, and then opening the door (to feedback) once it's done.

I have found, as Beth describes, that talking about a story can convince my subconscious that the story is finished, and then when I try to write it, it's gone. My subconscious wants to go on to other things.

The only time I would recommend talking to others about an unfinished story is when you are blocked and need help brainstorming what to do next.

Fragments and Feedback can be used for that with the 13-line rule to give Hatrackers your starting point, plus a description of how far you've gone on the story, and then a request for suggestions on how to wrap it up satisfactorily. Discussion would then be on what the beginning promises and what you can do to fulfill that promise in your ending.

Of course, once you know what do write for the rest of your story, shut the door and write it.

Posted by Varishta (Member # 2789) on :

Ah, that's where I read it! If I could write as fast as Mr. King, this wouldn't be so much of a concern.

quote:
Fragments and Feedback can be used for that with the 13-line rule to give Hatrackers your starting point, plus a description of how far you've gone on the story, and then a request for suggestions on how to wrap it up satisfactorily. Discussion would then be on what the beginning promises and what you can do to fulfill that promise in your ending.

So Fragments and Feedback aren't always just for the first 13 lines of a story, but for the general analysis of a storyline, as well?

Or did I read that wrong?

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Of course, if you talk too much about what you're writing, you run the risk of convincing yourself that you've already written it, and then you might not bother to write it down...

Posted by TheoPhileo (Member # 1914) on :

I agree with what many have said here. The one question I just hate trying to answer about a WIP is "what is your book about?" It always sounds stupid when giving the 20-second version aloud. So, simply to avoid that, I rarely talk about my stories with friends, especially non-writers.

When a draft is done (or at least several chapters), however, I have no problem just handing it over and telling them to read for themselves.

Posted by pixydust (Member # 2311) on :

The only person I talk to about my writing is my husband. I'll just start babbling about the part I'm stuck at or the charcter who isn't cooperating. He sits and nodds, sometimes gives really bad advice (he's cute, but definitely not a writer), but it's really just me talking out-loud. Sometimes you need a sounding board. This has the opposite affect on me. It just makes me want to write more and more. The story comes alive and I get this really irritating itch to get it all on paper.

Anyone else besides my husband though and I feel like I'm speaking in Japanese. I tried to tell my cousin once about the novel I was writing and I realized how rediculous it all sounded and shut my mouth. Never tried to tell anyone after that. My writing is kind of a private thing. No one really knows I do it anyway. I'm a closet writer. Wonder what they'll all think when they walk into the book store in ten years and I'm doing a signing (please, please, please). And they all thought I sat at home knitting and baking beerbread. Never can tell. Crazy Homeschooling mom's an author, who would have guessed.

Anyway, all that to say: I agree with the wait to get feedback rule.

Posted by Thunderduck (Member # 2802) on :

Though poetry is my main drive, and where 90% of my ambition flows I'm always working on a book on the side. I find that after I have a couple of chapters down that I gain a good deal of direction and input from other family members. I mean why spend a year or more on an idea you couldn't even get past those who would give you an even break. Now as far as letting others on the net know, it's smarter to keep your basic ideas and storyline contained.

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

I had a trusted friend at work that I chatted about every day at lunch. I would tell him what I wrote or was planning to write, and he gave hs reactions. I sometimes made changes based on what he said, often times not. I found it very useful to explain the story to someone just to get thoughts straight in my mind. Now he's gone to another company and I don't discuss it with anyone.

Stephen King does what works for Stephen King, I do what works for Spaceman.

The one thing I won't do is discuss the plot of anything I haven't started in a public forum.

Posted by Miriel (Member # 2719) on :

I agree with Spaceman: whatever works for you is what you should do. I see a lot of people here talk with others about their novels before they're finished. I don't work that way, personally. I didn't show anyone a page of my WIP until I was on my fourth draft, and had done everything I could do to it, and desperately needed some feedback to polish up the last bits of plot. I don't think criticism is useful until this stage for me, and I also can't stand to let people read something that I know isn't well-revised. Which is why when I ask someone if they'll read my novel for me, their normal reaction is to step back, blink, stare, and say, "You even write? Wait...a novel? Like...a whole novel? That's lots of words!" But, it's what works for me.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

quote:
So Fragments and Feedback aren't always just for the first 13 lines of a story, but for the general analysis of a storyline, as well?

Yes, you ought to be able to get feedback on a storyline (or on a synopsis/outline) as well as on 13 lines of text.

People don't use F&F that way very often, but I think it's more because they haven't realized that they can, and not that they don't want that kind of feedback.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

The first 13 lines of a story is one way to help people decide if they are interested in reading and commenting on the whole story.

That's why people will say things like, "I'm hooked. Please send me the rest." or "I'll read."

If you don't want to post any actual lines of text, you can describe the story and see if there are any takers.

Or you can describe the story and see if anyone has feedback on the structure, the way you plan to start it or end it, and that sort of thing.

And if you don't have the ending worked out (a problem several people have mentioned having), you can even ask for suggestions on how to end a story.

Posted by Jon Roberts (Member # 2804) on :

I hate trying to explain my ideas to people, because as has been said, it never sounds as cool in the 20-second verbal version. It's kind of funny to watch people's eyes glaze over though. I've written a novel (actually more like two) and that was a huge time investment and what I got from it was a not so viable story (I liked the idea, still like the idea, but at least half of it was trash). I have a feeling that if somebody had read the first few chapters and given me moderately detailed feedback, I might have avoided a lot of those mistakes.

For those of you that do share your novels before they're done: how much do you write before you share? Because just writing a prologue and letting someone read it, tends to get it stomped in my opinion. Not enough has happened to make the story sustain itself.

On the subject of F & F. I love the idea of using the forum in more ways than the one that it is used as now. KDW has posted snippets of her F&F dream in various threads and I was wondering if there was a way to collect them and post a sticky thread at the top of the F&F section so that we could all see it. Can we even do sticky threads? Just a thought.

Jon

Posted by Silver3 (Member # 2174) on :

I used to work in secrecy, but now I'll explain the plot to my boyfriend. He's no writer either, but I find it clears my mind considerably to have to order my ideas in order to explain them. He's also more realist than me, and it helps when building a plausible plot.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Nope, can't do sticky threads.

Posted by yanos (Member # 1831) on :

I generally don't release either novels or short stories to other eyes until it is done. It feels uncomfortable and I find I don't want people's suggestions until I've got some of my own issues straightened out.

Once that first draft is done. I think it is an ideal time to get some critiques. The problem most of us have is having someone look at the full thing. A novel is a heck of a thing to critique.

I don't see any problem though in bouncing ideas of people. Even getting together a synopsis and having people critique that can be useful. Different strokes for different folks.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I don't mind talking about what I'm working on in general terms---though that does generally drop the story down to its unoriginal core idea.

Right now on the front burner it's down to the story about alien possession, the one about the three sisters and the mysterious stranger, and the one about school shootings. (Further back on the stove there's the prison camp story, the exploration of lands on a planet fallen into tribal barbarism, and that Internet Fan Fiction love-and-hate story I promised I'd finish but never got past the first third before dropping out.)

You can see how uninspiring and unoriginal they seem, how much they look like things some people have done---and probably better, too. I try to bring what originality I have to the take I bring to it. Most of them seem different enough to get by, as far as my end of it is concerned---and if I worried about matching up against something somebody has already done, I'd never get anything done at all.

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

Guilty of possession of an illegal alien?

Posted by Paul-girtbooks (Member # 2799) on :

Hi Varishta -

- actually, it's never bothered me in the least not sharing a story whilst writing it. In fact, I've never thought of it before! To be honest I get extremely embarrassed talking about a story that's not finished. I guess this comes from a sense of possessiveness, a desire to somehow for some reason 'protect' the story.

That said, once a story's completed I'll quite happily throw it around to all an sundry who care to read it!

My usual practice, once the first draft is done, is basically to file it and forget it in order to get some distance from it. I'll go off and write something else and leave the first story for months and months before I'll go back to it.