Hatrack River Writers Workshop: A touch of immortality

This is topic A touch of immortality in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by JmariC (Member # 2698) on :

As some of you may be aware, there will soon be the chance to both help a good cause and have a touch of immortality for you or someone else.
There will be an eBay auction for the right to have your name, likeness and/or nickname in an upcoming book or comic.
For more information:
http://cgi3.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=auctioncause

Now, advertising aside and being as this is a forum for discussions, would you be willing to participate in something like this if you were a Pro?
Would you particpate only if it was for charity? If so, a specific one?
What kind of limitations would you put forth? (For example: in the Stephen King auction the winner gets a character named after them, BUT in order for the character to die the winning name/description must be female)
Could you even start writing the book before the winner was announced?

Curious minds and all....

Posted by Doc Brown (Member # 1118) on :

I think this is a great idea.

Wouldn't it be a great twist if these authors started bidding on each other's auctions? Imagine if Stephen King got to have a slobbering monster from the depths of Hell chew the head off of Nora Roberts!

Heh.

Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :

I recently read the last 3 books in the Alvin Maker series. Orson Scott Card held a contest to name a character after someone real. I borrowed the last book and have now given it back so I can't refer to the actual rules at this point, but the short story is that OSC ended up using the nicknames of a couple of people who post on the public forum on this website: Papa Moose and Mama Squirrel. The cutesie use of "Moose and Squirrel" completely destroyed my ability to suspend disbelief. The book came across to me as silly, and was the first book of OSC's that I felt was a huge let-down. There were a couple of other elements that reinforced that feeling, but the biggest factor was the use of these tongue-in-cheek nicknames in a book that is a an alternate-history period piece. It didn't fit the millieu.

There. That said, I don't really care to pay money to have my name included in someone else's book. It seems pointless to me. And I am now highly leery of any author who is including a real name in his/her book via a contest. As a reader, I would hope they would find a way to work it in smoothly. And if for some reason the real name doesn't match the invented millieu, you have a potential problem that may ruin the entire story for the reader.

[This message has been edited by Elan (edited August 16, 2005).]

Posted by JmariC (Member # 2698) on :

I love the way your mind works Doc, I'll be sharing that image!

To quote Elan:
"And if for some reason the real name doesn't match the invented millieu, you have a potential problem that may ruin the entire story for the reader."
The Lemony Snicket option comes with the forwarning (rule) that "Pronunciation and/or spelling may be slightly 'mutilated.'"
This means he can fix the name to fit the book.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I didn't know they were contest winners and I didn't even blink at Papa Moose and Mama Squirrel in the most recent book. <shrugs> Maybe the fact that you knew about the contest and knew who won hurt your impression? Just a thought...

I do think it's an interesting auction and why not participate? I think most competent authors can work in details like this, maybe even benefit from them.

Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :

Perhaps my strong reaction to the names "Moose and Squirrel" in an alternate-history fantasy book is based on the fact that I'm a lot older than you, Christine. I'm old enough that Rocky and Bullwinkle were weekly Saturday Morning Cartoon fare for me. I can still hear Boris and Natasha complaining about "Moose and Squirrel."

My opinion stands... if you use a name that is strongly reminiscent of modern-day culture, you pay the price of interferring with the reader's ability to immerse in the milieu.

Can you imagine Timmy and Lassie? Or The Lone Ranger and Tonto? (Oh... sorry...still showing my age), or let's say Bill and Hillary Clinton? Or Sigfried and Roy? Or ... or... (I clearly don't watch enough television)... well, you get the point.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I know I shouldn't encourage this sort of thing, but your response was just funny, Nocti.

On several levels

Posted by Warbric (Member # 2178) on :

Ah, nevermind. Just accept that some things are not necessarily as they appear.

[This message has been edited by Warbric (edited October 01, 2005).]

Posted by Noctivigant (Member # 2843) on :

Boris and Natasha are based on communists.

Timmy and Lassie have a master/pet relationship (I think, haven't seen any Lassie movies).

The Lone Ranger and Tonto have a superior/inferior relationship?

Bill and Hillary Clinton.. not sure. A reference to low moral values?

Sigfried and Roy.. both born in Germany. Not sure about that either. Was one of them always the brunt of jokes?

Unless the racism accusation itself is a joke?

[This message has been edited by Noctivigant (edited October 01, 2005).]

Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :

I'll join you in your amusement, survivor!

rcorporon, you might be interested in Godwin's Law. Google it.

Godwin's Law states that in internet discussion groups, as the thread grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1. It further states that once this comparison is made, the discussion is essentially over, and the person who has made the comparison has completely lost the argument.

Gratuitous Nazi references are intended simply to disparage, and say far more about the person who uses the term than about the object of the comment.

Hatrack has been delightfully free from Godwin's Law until today.

Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :

I'm glad someone is amused. I'm most certainly not. While I usually take stupid comments with a grain of salt, I have to take umbrage at being called racist. Particularly based simply on quoting a line from the cartoon Rocky and Bullwinkle.

If your intention is to be incredibly offensive, rcorporon, you've succeeded nicely. You DO realize, don't you, that Boris and Natasha were CHARACTERS on that TV show? And I'd say there's a fair chance I know more than you do about Russians, having had one live in my home for some time. He didn't seem to think I was a bit racist.

Besides... Boris Badenov and Natasha Fatale were not from Russia. They were from Pottsylvania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rocky_and_Bullwinkle_Show

Nocti, the comparison of "famous couple" names was simply to illustrate that if those names came up in an alternate world fantasy or sci-fi, they would immediately conjure up a mental image of a pop-culture icon that would be difficult to shake each and every time you read the name(s). There was no deeper metaphor intended.

[This message has been edited by Elan (edited October 01, 2005).]

Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :

It's ok, elan. We know who is coming off badly here, and it is not you.

Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :

Heh. thanks. But sometimes one just has to name a stupid-ass comment for what it is.

And if one must know, the comment which offends me most is the one accusing me of not being able to spell.

[This message has been edited by Elan (edited October 01, 2005).]

Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :

Your spelling is impeccable!

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Since I think the best thing to do with asses is to ignore them, I will go on as if Elan's follow-up post was the last thing said here:

You make an excellent point about Rocky and Bullwinkle. I am not so ignorant as to not be familiar with them, but I cannot recall actually sitting through and watching a single episode of that long-ago cartoon. I grew up with the Smurfs and Looney Tunes and I suppose if someone in a book were to be called Papa Smurf it would be really weird.

I will try to go on enjoying the series nonetheless, although if I recall correctly I was disappointed in the last book for other reasons that I won't go into for the sake of getting back on topic.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Just so you know, there are two rcorporons posting on Hatrack. (I'm not sure how this has happened, but I will notify The Powers That Be about it.)

Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :

Ah. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. That explains things.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

You all should have spotted the fact that the evil version was listed as a new member and only had three posts, all of them transparently offensive. That's why I thought it was funny that Nocti didn't realize he was responding to an obvious hacker troll.

But I guess I should have been more responsible. What can I say? I don't wear a white hat...um...metaphorically speaking

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I should have spotted that. I saw the new member thing, but then so many of the members here are nwe to me that I figured this guy hadn't been around as long as I thought.

In any case, I guess we should be on the lookout for evil twins.

Posted by Warbric (Member # 2178) on :

I imagine the Powers That Be have taken steps to make sure the trick used in this case doesn't get past the registration process again.

The only neat part of it all is the fact that someone could use such a trick on a message board at all. As just an idea thing -- how someone could discredit someone else he/she has it in for is something to file away. On a well-moderated board like this, it couldn't pass for long, but not all boards are policed as well or fairly as this. You may never need it in a story, but then again...

Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :

I TOTALLY swear that anything stupid I've ever said here was posted by my evil twin, not me!

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Actually, Card used this ploy in Ender's Game. The forum software was able to distinguish between them. Given how the profile links work, that means that the ascii/unicode for their names were actually different. I'm thinking that it took advantage of a special character that looks like a normal letter in the default font set or something like that. Or it could have been Card's original trick of using a whitespace character of some kind after the name.

Names that don't have standardized spellings are particularly subject to this kind of thing. As are names with words that are commonly misspelled, like if someone on this site were named "GrammarNazi", it would be a piece of cake for someone calling themselves "GrammerNazi" to slip in a post here and there, as long as they deleted them soon afterwards.

Or can we really delete posts?

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Hmm, can't

Posted by Warbric (Member # 2178) on :

Yep, Survivor is right. An extended ASCII character for a blank space was the trick used by the imposter. Mousing over the bio icon reveals it in the browser status-bar.

Man, I didn't remember OSC using that. I have to check my copy of Ender's Game now. Perhaps that's where it got lodged in a crease in my brain long ago.

I have to laugh. A troll comes in trying to cause grief by impersonating a forum member by way of a dodgy trick and the conversation turns away from his idiocy to story ideas and stories in which such a trick was used. I like this.

[This message has been edited by Warbric (edited October 02, 2005).]

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

It was actually a common enough trick over on the Virtual Battle School forums. Or at least, I saw it used a time or two while I was posting there.

Ender uses it to anonymously make fun of Bernard in such a way as to suggest to most of the launchies that the teachers don't support Bernard's clique.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

You've probably noticed that I can say enough foul things on my own. I don't need a ghost poster to do it for me.

If there's something that looks like a personal attack on someone posted by me, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be me. I don't know any of you well enough (except maybe Kathleen) to be sure of my ground when I make an attack...besides, I can't keep your noms de screen straight...

Posted by Noctivigant (Member # 2843) on :

It would be nice if this kind of thing didn't happen. I don't have time to check the validity of every single post that I read.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

So you don't worry about the validity. Just ignore posts that are abusive and offensive.

If you pay attention to them, you are encouraging more of the same.

Posted by franc li (Member # 3850) on :

The contest was the trivia showdown at EnderCon. It was assumed Card would use their real names, but he liked the Hatrack handles better. I guess since I had met Papa Moose, I didn't have that problem. And I watched Bullwinkle a lot both as a child and as a teenager.

Posted by rcorporon (Member # 2879) on :

Two rcorporons? I got mine from my name. Ronnie Corporon. I didn't even notice that there was another.

Strange.

Ronnie

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

The imitation only posted a couple of times, and you weren't around at the time. And that one pretty obviously got his name from yours.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I've got an evil twin. Unfortunately, we're both trapped inside the same body.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Robert Nowall *is* my real name. I've never understood the fascination with having a "handle" online.

Except that it preserves anonymity...and perhaps identity.

I wouldn't post anything under another name, unless I could come up with a really good joke...

Posted by rcorporon (Member # 2879) on :

I wonder why he used my name to post fake posts.... wonder what that says about me

Ronnie

Posted by franc li (Member # 3850) on :

I keep thinking this thread will be about a magic power that grants immortality. Of course, I assume it has a price of shortening someone else's life. If it were the toucher, then there would be a bunch of rich and powerful people trying to keep them from wasting their powers on immortalizing just any old person.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I'd guess that Ronnie was targeted because he was relatively new and because he wasn't posting at the time.

Posted by Ahavah (Member # 2599) on :

Were the posts erased? Cause I think I'm lost...

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Yes, they were, Ahavah.

Let's get back on topic. I remember the first time I ran across a real person's name in a book. The person was Mary Frances Zambreno, and the book was CARDS OF GRIEF by Jane Yolen, if I remember correctly.

I didn't know about "tuckerizing" as some SF writers and fans call it (after Wilson "Bob" Tucker, an earlier SF writer who was known for naming his characters after friends and fans), and seeing the name of someone I had heard of in SF fandom more or less kicked me out of the story at first. I couldn't figure out if it was a huge co-inky-dink* or if it had been on purpose. (The character was a serious--as in not intended to be funny--character.)

Then I went on and finished reading (and that name is the only thing I really remember about the story). Someday I'll have to reread it, to see what else there was in the story. (Since Jane Yolen is a fine writer, I don't have any worries about it being worth rereading.)

*co-inky-dink = my facetious term for stuff that I don't really think is coincidental

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

"No, it was a very natural occurance."

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Arthur C. Clarke, in "2010," I believe, used the names of Soviet dissidents for Russian astronauts---something his Soviet publishers reportedly didn't notice until part of "2010" had been serialized. The rest of it didn't see print in Russia until the fall of Communism, or maybe just before...

I can't recommend using the names of real people. I have a hard time coming up with names...usually if I realize I've used a name also borne by a co-worker or acquaintance, and also if it's borne by another literary character, it just kills it completely for me and I have to come up with another name. (I have used the family name of a guy who bullied me as the family name of a succession of villains in unpublished stories...that tells you what I obsess about...)

Posted by pantros (Member # 3237) on :

My view on capitalistic Opportunitisism is that if people will pay for it, you can sell it with the simple caveat of keep it legal.

I wont apply my morals or philosophy to someone elses business transaction.

That said, I think calling this purchasing immortality is bit of a reach. Given the sheer number of printed works available, distinguishing which ones will even be opened and read a decade from now is a gamble.

Its more like buying 15 minutes of fame.

If I ever find myself on a best seller list and find the opportunity to slip a character into a book to push some money towards a good cause, I'd do it. I might not do it if the only good cause was to make my own bank account fatter, that would be breaching artistic integrity, but doing it for charity is probably enough to justify it.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Reminds me of a Monty Python vox pops: "I'd do full-frontal nudity if it was valid...if the money were valid...and if it were a small part."

I do think this idea of bidding to be a named character in a novel or story is a little beyond the pale, charitable cause or no.