I can understand that you wouldn't prefer to have younger writers here... that is fine with me. But to cut them off without an ALTERNATIVE??? I find it quite disturbing that this banner was put up ONE DAY after I went through the trouble (about 4 hours of my life) to create a separate group/forum SPECIFICALLY FOR people younger than 18 (actually 20 but that's irrelevant). I planned on using Hatrack to contact them so they could work in a group of the same writing level... and now that flow has been cut off to my JUST STARTING group as well... and I could complain all I want, but really you're only doing a disservice to people who want to write... is it too much to ask that instead of being shunned they be redirected? I think not.
Please. Put my mind at ease.
I suspect that what is happening now is firmly reestablishing that this forum is still for adults only, perhaps a bit belatedly. There are alternatives out there, though this site is under no obligation to redirect you to them. In fact, this site is a courtesy for authors. It's free for us and paid for by OSC. He can do whatever he likes, whenever he likes. He could shut it down tomorrow and we would have no redress. But he owes us nothing... if anything, we are indebted to him.
So... does that put your mind at ease? Probably not.
Instead of making your complaint, you could have politely e-mailed Kathleen and asked for permission to advertise your new forum for the young writers as an alternative. Though I can't speak for her, she has been extremely generous in the past.
But whatever. This site owes you nothing, hopekeeper. Life owes you nothing. Get used to it.
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 12, 2005).]
Hopekeeper, what makes you think that you are owed anything whatsoever? It is perfectly acceptable for OSC to decide who he wants to access the forum and who he prefers to not cater to. There were several reasons for the under eighteen forums to be shut down, and I think that one of them was ingratitude and attitude problems from the younger writers. Unfortunately your post rather reinforces that stance.
If you want to be treated seriously please try not to presume on people's kindness and act like this forum is a right. It is a priviledge. I for one am thankful for that priviledge, and do not take it for granted in any way. Try to approach it from that angle in the future and you may have more success as well as fewer disappointments.
Unfortunately, I probably wouldn't have been as nice as HSO or autumnmuse.
It is a basic mistake to believe that benevolence confers entitlement. With any luck, you'll learn that. I hope that you do.
[This message has been edited by mikemunsil (edited August 12, 2005).]
I'm sad to see this notice at the top, myself. I like the idea of gradual entry into adulthood, rather than suddenly at 18 or 21. Maybe we could train younger heads. Maybe we also could remind ourselves -- even now -- when somebody issues a flame: "Maybe it's a stealth teenager. Do I really want to get into a sparring match with a teenager? Shouldn't I act more adult instead?" And then if we find the flamer is 52, we'll still have behaved ourselves.
No, what is at issue here is that the owners and operators of this forum have set in place a rule for the use of THEIR site. Their FREE site.
They have put up a restriction, a reasonable restriction on many levels though I understand, and am sure they do, the arguments against it. But even if they were pig-headed child haters, this isn't a democracy. The users don't get to vote on the policies set in place here. If they wanted to restrict access via password-protected registration, they could. If they wanted to make you pay for accesss, they could. If they insisted that everyone submit a story about evil robot monkeys before granting access, they could!
But they don't charge, or require passwords to access the site, only to post, nor have I ever written a story about evil robot monkeys (my loss).
Thank you, Mr. Card and Kathleen, for hosting a place where aspiring writers can come and chat.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited August 12, 2005).]
Young teens have tendencies to behave in ways that may be developmentally-appropriate, ie expected... but those behaviors tend to be disruptive to this forum's purpose. Rebellion, snarkiness, silliness--those behaviors are expected when you run into a teen at, say, a local mall.
But here at Hatrack we have adult writers who are seriously attempting to better our skills. The time we have spent trying to keep the topics on track, to remind younger folk that rudeness is not acceptable, and to reinforce the minimal guidelines--say, the 13 line rule in F&F--has been pretty significant. It is no small thing. And it's been pretty annoying.
Teens aren't the only ones with behavior problems, but they are the majority of it. We've seen an influx of the issues I've described since OSC had to shut down the Young Writers Forum.
No one is checking your I.D. at the door to verify your age. But the "for writers age 18 and older" is another way of saying: "Mature, adult behavior only."
It's OK to ask ALL the participants of this board to conform to the standards of mature behavior: professional intent, respect, politeness, and willingness to adhere to the established guidelines.
The message is simple, "Act childish, and you'll be asked to leave." You can replace "asked" with a more forceful verb if you like.
The other point, that this site is private property and subject to any rules the owners or appointed operators see fit to impose is very true. But this forum has no policy against requests for explanations of its policies. And hopekeeper was posting as a registered member. The content of the post may seem a little childish for such a delicate matter, but that's a matter of taste.
All that being said, let me put my own interpretation on this. It is a simple fact that most of the serious writers on this forum are over 18. I'm sure if we bothered to go through the member list and find out the ages of every member when those members were actively posting, we'd find that a slight majority of them were under 18. We'd also find that most of them weren't terribly serious about improving their writing skills.
The statement, however intimidating it might look, is just the plain truth. It isn't a new rule or anything (it's not new, and it isn't being imposed as a rule). It's a reminder of the purpose of this forum. It's stated in bald terms so that the target audience--children who think they're serious writers because they're so passionate about it--will get the message. One of our standards for being a serious writer is that you enter this forum determined to contribute to a mature discussion, regardless of your age.
JOHN!
EDIT:MaryRobinette- beat me to it...great minds and all...
[This message has been edited by JOHN (edited August 12, 2005).]
No, I never feel entitled to anything. No, I don't feel that anyone here is required to help us out. All I was trying to say was that it seems a little unfair, and perhaps it WAS just a coincidence that it showed up a day after opening my forum... in either case I agree that I was acting childish, demanding an explaination like that... but please try to understand where I was coming from before labeling me as an immature teenager. You see, one of my main reasons for CREATING my forum was so that it would detract the younger users from here... I know when I was here I was overwhelmed and I felt sorry for myself because I was "no good" at this... but then after spending some time with my other writing friends, I decided that it was simply the environment. Not to say that this environment is bad, but it is simply not targeted at people my age.
So when I made the aspiration to start something out which could in turn help out many many people, I just felt a little confused and angered after seeing that where I intended to find the majority of my members there was a discouraging banner which prevented them from contacting ME... well you get the point.
So in summary, I appologize, and I appreciate your upfront answers, but I will not move my stance on the fact that I feel slightly wronged. (yeah it's a private forum... I know)
And I want to say to anyone my age reading this--if you are the kind of person who screwed us over, I don't appreciate your lack of maturity (possibly hypocritical I guess) and how it seems that "someone will always ruin it for someone else." So please, grow up, or at least attempt to. Then maybe, just maybe, these things won't HAVE to happen...
I have to be honest, I haven't really considered this from the point of view of the teens who feel potentially overwhelmed here. I suppose I might have considered it except that I felt as if they were intruding on my territory. This was a place for adults to discuss writinf ro years, and I have noticed a maturity shift lately. I wish I could say it was "one person ruining it for everyone else" as it so often is, but in this case I don't think so. I think, respectfully, that for a variety of reasons the culture of youth has hurt this site. I can't name names. I can't point fingers. I won't, even if I could.
There *is* a maturity shift that happens sometime after the age of 18 (several years after, but 18 makes a convenient legal cutoff). I have always thought it happpens when "kids" leave their parents home and go off on their own for the first time. I nkow that's when it happened for me. As a senior in college, I could pick out the freshmen a mile away. Why? They hadn't hit the maturity shift yet. By the end of the year, most of the now sophomore were indistinguishable from anyone else.
I'm glad you pointed out the flipside of this, the overwhelming nature of a newbie being thrust into the mix with people who are on an entirely different level in terms of not only social maturity, but probably also writing. (Not always...I've seen some of the high schooler's writing samples better than some of the adults, but life and experience is not on your side.) In five or ten yeasr, those of you who stick with this will be highly competent writers and valuable assets to this site.
I managed just fine without a writer's group through my teen years. I was busy soaking up all the articles on the SFWA site, reading books about writing, and doing a lot of writing. Now that I'm a little older, I feel like I actually have something to contribute to this site. I realize now that writing is hard work that I ultimately have to do on my own. I don't come here for someone to hold my hand and show me what to do.
I realize this point isn't even up for debate: it's OSC's choice. I just happen to agree. And I'm very grateful for this wonderful site where I can come and talk with real writers who are serious about their craft. I'd like to think I'm one of those people who could have fit in here before I was eighteen. But, you know what? It didn't hurt anything to work on my own for those years, either. I learned a lot.
As to what Mary said: I recieved a rather explicit story a few days ago that I had offered a critique on. I cringed to think that a young person might accidentally get their hands on it. It was fairly horrifying. I myself would have rather forgon the pleasure but I had no warning of it's content. I mentioned to the young person (I believe it was one of our teens) to put a warning in their post, but as yet have not seen it there. I'm thinking of sticking one in the thread myself.
quote:
As to what Mary said: I recieved a rather explicit story a few days ago that I had offered a critique on. I cringed to think that a young person might accidentally get their hands on it. It was fairly horrifying. I myself would have rather forgon the pleasure but I had no warning of it's content. I mentioned to the young person (I believe it was one of our teens) to put a warning in their post, but as yet have not seen it there. I'm thinking of sticking one in the thread myself.
Once I get an offer, I usually give a warning even if it's not that explicit of content, since diferent people have different sensibilities.
I was under the impression that everyone should be 18 or older, so after I gave a warning, I didn't feel bad about who got it.
A warning is all well and good, but when I was under 18 watching cable while my parents were in bed, and saw a movie come on that said, "The following movie is Unrated. It contains, Adult Content, Adult Themes, Adult Language, Adult Situations, Nudity, and Strong Sexual Content..." I knew I'd found exactly what I was looking for.
So, for everyone involved, it's kinda good the 18 and up rule is in place. Sorry to hear about the teen/young writers' forum, though.
JOHN!
[This message has been edited by Kickle (edited August 12, 2005).]
http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/002128.html
Because of those concerns, I talked to the Powers That Be about a clarifying notice.
This does not mean that we are going to "card" anyone (interesting term in light of the identity of the Powers That Be) to make sure only those 18 and older post here or participate in the forum. It just means that we expect participants to behave with maturity and to be aware that we are not encouraging or catering to those under 18.
This is one of those kitchens you should probably stay out of if you can't handle the heat.
We promise to keep the litter picked up, the tables wiped clean, the refreshments stocked, and the music at tolerable levels.
My point exactly... but if the ones who can't stand the heat can't get to my place either, then they miss out.
Of course, I'm talking about those people who will be so intimidated by the banner that they will cease to even lurk here... and now that I think about it, lurkers will still be able to contact me if they desire, so all is well.
Like, if you think you see someone that can't stand the metaphorical heat in our purely imaginary kitchen.
--Mel
--Mel
Sort of like watching the show 'Cops'.
I, personally, laughed out loud and clapped my hands with GLEE when I saw "This forum is for writers age 18 and older," at the top of the page. YAY!!!
Do I hate teenagers? No. I just spent 4 days with 15 of them, whom I love dearly--all girls, no less. But there are places and situations appropriate for teens and places and situations which should be sanctuaries for adults. Hatrack has been MY sanctuary, and the Immaturity Invasion nearly ended my association with Hatrack.
Halleluja for the Powers That Be! Thank you, OSC!! Thank you, Kathleen!!
One more thing: Now that my "secret" is out, if anyone with authority wishes me to leave this forum I will respect their wishes and do so.
So far, mythopoetic and RagDoll, I have not seen any behavior that is immature to the point that we wouldn't want you around. Just keep participating as you have been.
I'm sure Kathleen, if she agrees with me that you are mature, will also agree with me that there is nothing wrong with having you around.
Obviously, as this is the internet you can pretend to be whomever you choose and I will never be the wiser -- not even if you act immaturely. I have known plenty of adults to act like teenatgers. The trouble is that all teenagers act, to one degree or another, like teenagers. I have never met an exception.
Acting like a teenager is not the same as acting immaturely. Some teenagers, are a part of their rebellious whatever they're trying to do, become entirely rude. Rudeness is not the same thing as acting like a teenager. I believe it may have been this rudeness that disrupted the young adult's forum.
I respect that many teenagers here have "behaved" themselves. But I still don't want you here.
I originally went into a long-winded discussion of what acting like a teenager meant, but I decided to nix it. The important thing is that there has been a shift in the culture of this site, the shift that nearly drove people like dakota and myself away. Cultural shifts are hard to describe, but basically, this place is feeling more and more like a high school to me -- and I HATED high school.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited August 16, 2005).]
I personally don't see anything magical about the age of 18, and I've known people much older than 18 who act like two-year-olds. We have to have an official cut-off age though, and 18 is considered adult for legal purposes.
If people under 18 post here, the only way we'll know for certain that they're under 18 is if they tell us that. I don't think I've told anyone my age, after all. As long as you don't drive away the people who are supposed to be here, the people for whom this forum is intended, I won't ask you to leave.
Just remember that you can't use your age as an excuse, and you can't expect special treatment.
It is my hope that that eighteen-year-old will have learned good things here (by giving as well as receiving feedback) in those less-than-two-years.
I believe we might even be glad to have such eighteen-year-olds around because they will have been raised right.
quote:
Just know - you'll be losing someone who can and will contribute a different perspective and a unique style that's sure to impress even the site's veterens.
Is that supposed to be mature? I don't know a single veteran here who would--even after publishing in pro markets or winning WOTF--trump himself up like that. Maybe humility is a sign of maturity?
As a 37-year-old first coming to this site, I felt like an infant among giants. I looked up to them. I feared them. I had to work hard to gain their respect--I most certainly did NOT expect it because I said so.
I feel very much like Christine. I'd rather Hatrack be a sanctuary. If I want to spend time with teenagers--even helping them with their writing--I'd rather do it by MY choice, not their insistence or deception.
I have my own reasons for not wanting under-18s here. I've really not enjoyed the site much over the last few months. It's not just the arguments, but also people flooding the F&F board.
But just to clarify a few things:
1. This is a site for discussions about writing. It is not necessarily for "serious" writers and trust me, talent has *nothing* to do with it. I imagine we would all have different ideas about what that meant anyway.
2. No one, myself included, "deserves" to be anywhere or do anything. That sense of entitlement can be anywhere from dangerous to disappointing when misapplied. At the moment I am not so much trying to decide who "deserves" to be here but who has a place here -- in thinking about it that way it may, in fact, be me who needs to go.
3. The word "or" in the English language is typiccaly an exclusive or -- meaning that only one of the elements on either side is true. It is a confusing article since it can be an inclusive or, which we sometimes write -- incorrectly -- as and/or to make our meaning clear, but I believe in Dakota's post it meant the former.
I remember what it was like as a teen and I have to say I sympathize with RagDoll. That said, I also sympathize with the older members here.
I used to frequent a site where people could submit their entire manuscript for free and have others review it. Often, these writers were teens. What turned me off eventually was a combination of three things (laying aside basic writer's mistakes).
First, most of the writers in the sections I frequented (Fantasy, Romance, Mythology) were either writing about high school or were basing the drama in their stories on high school dramas. Often writers in this group let their fantasies take over the story, completely ignoring how adults actually act. In fact, I could often tell who was still in high school simply by the lack of reality surrounding the adult characters (a result of the "generation gap" we've artifically put around kids in school as a means of glorifying childhood).
Second, the ones who didn't do this tried to be "edgy", or, bless their hearts, "original". Often this meant shock value, not an organic story. After reading a few of these, I got the feeling that the writer didn't have enough real world experience to create the depth he/she needed to take her writing to the next level. The only cure for that is time.
That's why I disagree with teen writers who say they can hold their own with writers who are much older. It's not a matter of writing ability: it's a matter of life. They haven't lived enough yet and the only cure for that is time.
The third item pertains to the quality of critiques and isn't germaine to the discussion except to say that they were rarely helpful.
My point with this long post (sorry) is that, like I said, I don't mind teens who behave themselves. However, I don't think teens should expect adults to react to their stories with the same enthusiasm that an adult would show another adult.
Anyway, that's just my thoughts.
Why?
Because of the kind of posts we're getting from the under-18 crowd in this thread.
If you're going to argue that you're mature enough to contribute to a forum for adult writers, then start by making your arguments persuasive to adult writers. Yes, that means leaving the teen-ness out. Yes, that means paying at least some attention to such basics of writing as spelling, punctuation, and grammar. Yes, that means making arguments based on facts or sound logic rather than emotion and personal hurt (though such arguments can be used sparingly to juice up an otherwise dry point).
Look, I don't have any problem with thinking that persons under a certain age are necessarily lacking in ability to write and write well. But by the same token, I don't have any patience with teens and their teenness. I don't look back on my own teens and cringe, but I don't look back on them wistfully either. I don't look back on them at all because I never went through them.
But that doesn't disqualify me from commenting on what I'm seeing here. So if you want to be considered mature enough to post on this forum, then start by making your posts more mature. That's all anyone is asking.
And Kathleen, I think you've done a wonderful job keeping everyone in line as much as possible. I think this is a great place to hang out and I'm very thankful for it. I've met some really great people here. Thanks for all your hard work! And thanks a million to OSC for his wonderful contribution to the writing community.
If I have any right (or excuse or what have you) to offer advice to under-eighteen members, it is this: don't dwell on your age, remember that you are a guest, and tread on eggshells. For what it's worth: I did it and I have yet to receive any mailbombs.
Jon a.k.a BladeOfWords
My dear Ragdoll,
1. Survivor is absolutely right, and your last post absolutely proves his point.
2. Your response showed your maturity, or lack thereof. And you have yet to prove to me that you are confident. Cocky, maybe. They're two different things. I am gaining confidence in my work but I don't go around telling everyone how great I think I am, or that if they just give me a chance I'll blow their socks off. That's not confidence--it's cockiness. Confidence is humble. Cockiness is immature.
3. 'Or,' as applied in my last post, is exclusive. I never said you were deceptive. Some of the young writers here have been--that bothers me, A LOT! You are the insistent variety.
4. No one yet has asked you to leave. We have simply stated our preference that you not participate here. Watch and learn all you want, but don't expect me to respect you just because you think I should. Respect is something you earn--the hard way.
5. In truth, Ragdoll, we have to impose rules and guidelines somewhere; and the more people we allow to skirt those rules/guidelines, the more people we have who think they are also 'exceptions to the rule.' And the more exceptions to the rule we have, the less meaning the rules/guidelines have until the whole system collapses into lawlessness. We're seeing the symptoms of that in the 'maturity shift' that many of us have noticed. Those of us who have strong objections to teens joining us have those objections because we want to nip a potential problem in the bud--and do it now.
So, I have a proposition:
There are a number of adult writers here, myself NOT included because I simply don't have the time, who seem like they would be interested in mentoring some of our more youthful members. So start a group. A group of teen writers, with parental permission, monitored through a group format by an adult who can teach and guide them OFF the site. I know that's happening with at least one other teen writer who is registered at Hatrack.
He's one of those few exceptions to the rule that actually worked. Heed his advice!
1) Emotional and immature behavior (getting angry at critiques, having hurt feelings when someone is merely speaking an opinion, taking things personally when no personal attack was made, rude and rebellious "I ain't conforming with no stupid, lame rules" obnoxious behavior.)
2) Lack of mechanical skill (ie, punctuation, spelling, grammar)
3) Lack of life experience that leaves a hole in the realism of the writing. (Trying to write as an adult with no experience of BEING an adult leads to lack of understanding of motive, logical choices, etc.)
These things are expected of teens and not bad, in and of themselves. The point is, these issues take up a tremendous amount of the time required to critique a younger person's work. I think all of us want to be working with people at our own skill level, or hopefully a few notches higher, not trying to mentor someone who hasn't yet grasped the basic mechanics of writing.
It takes me 4-5 times longer to do a thorough critique for an inexperienced writer because of the numerous mechanical errors and pure "adults don't act like this in real life" silliness in it. The other side of the coin is that the critiques I've gotten back from younger folk show their inexperience as well. One critique amounted to something like: "It didn't work for me," which was useless information because it didn't contain specifics.
I don't mind being around teenagers. I LIKE teenagers (particularly now that my own kids are grown and no longer trying to grind me into emotional dust.)
But I don't like spending my valuable time--time that is precious to me--teaching someone basic 8th grade English skills. I expect people here at Hatrack to have mastered those basic skills already.
Preferring to hang out with other adults of a similar skill level is really about our desire to spend every ounce of OUR time learning from each other. Teens, it's hard for US to learn if we spend all our time teaching YOU basic skills that you would probably have developed by the time you were 18. It's really not fair for you to demand that we become teachers for you, when by doing so we have to spend so much time teaching you the basics that we end up giving up the time we might have spent learning new things too.
To me, the difference lies entirely on whether the teenager--or any writer, for that matter--has mastered basic English skills, and whether there is enough emotional maturity to handle critique without having a melt-down or a hissy fit.
[This message has been edited by Elan (edited August 18, 2005).]
quote:
I'd be willing to be one of the helpful adults. I've taught writing to sixth graders for the last three years, so I have some experience in proofreading, and I currently have alot of free time because we moved and I'm still looking for a teaching job. My only problem is that I have absolutely NO knowledge of how to run a site like that from the technical standpoint.
Does anyone have any ideas?
kgator, that's very kind of you to help these young dedicated writers. I'll help you out on the technical things. I'll send you an email so we can take this off-forum.
Sincerely,
Amanda
WRITER
This would be an example of #1 as I cited earlier.
Sorry you are choosing to go, Amanda. We were asked for an explanation, and we gave it. I know it's hard to receive a critique, particularly when it's aimed at an age group and not a manuscript. But we adults seem to be stuck in a "no-win" situation when we cannot give our honest opinions on a topic without being branded racist/ageist and called hypocrites. We could soften our words and our tone, but that would dilute the honesty.
You have a lot of potential as a writer. Age will increase your skill in every area of your life. Good luck, and check in with us from time to time.
quote:
I think there are three primary issues that most of us have with underage writers:
1) Emotional and immature behavior (getting angry at critiques, having hurt feelings when someone is merely speaking an opinion, taking things personally when no personal attack was made, rude and rebellious "I ain't conforming with no stupid, lame rules" obnoxious behavior.)
2) Lack of mechanical skill (ie, punctuation, spelling, grammar)
3) Lack of life experience that leaves a hole in the realism of the writing. (Trying to write as an adult with no experience of BEING an adult leads to lack of understanding of motive, logical choices, etc.)
It was not directed at you, RagDoll. Elan was just trying to clarify the reasons for her, and others, not wanting teens on the sight as a "rule". It's nothing personal, and should not be taken that way. Though, I definitely think that calling us all hypocrites is not the way to convince us of your stability.
I'm sorry to see you go. I think you could have contributed to this sight if you'd given it a chance. Perhaps I'll pop on over and see how you're doing once in a while. I'd like to help if I can.
1. Can there be some sort of note to direct people under 18 from this site to the under 18 forum?
2. If there's anyone else interested in this, please let me or phrasingsmith know.
There is, of course, in inherent problem with the discussion we've been having. Pointing out to teenagers what elements make them teenagers is one of the likeliest ways to get a teenaged reaction from them. We have now taken on the role of the adults who get in the way of what they want...we don't understand them, we are morons, we are discriminating. I might have thought the same thing ten years ago.
I remember adults trying to explain to me that "I would understand when I was older." and I thought they were nuts and just trying to impose their will on me. They were right, though. There are some things that can only be learned with age and experienc -- no amount of explanations or psycho-babble will help.
Thought others will read, my comments here are directed at the adults...we need to be the ones to end this conversation.
How about the same way we do critiques? Let it be about the story (or the issue) -- not what we imagine to be wrong with the writer.
I think that's great, though not exactly what I had in mind. I was thinking an email kind of writer's group--something very similar to what we already have going on among the adult writers and their groups. But if you can get them a website, GREAT!!
But now that I am older, I know that's not what it is. It's about wisdom, in Biblical terms, that can only be gained with time. As a teenager, you haven't had enough time on this earth to learn some things from experience. Love, for example. How can you know what it's like to love someone for a decade? You haven't been around that long. How can you know what it's like to bear the responsibilities of hard work, day after day for years on end, with no second chances if you fail? How can you know the stresses of marriage, of child-raising, of mortages? You're capable of doing all these things, and you know it, and that's why your frustrated. But you haven't done them yet--and therein lies the entire point.
Experience is an irreplaceable teacher. It's most of the reason that adults think, talk, and act differently than teenagers.
Surely, now that you've progressed beyond your teen years, you see how inoffensive this statement is? How it truly is a plain statement of fact?
[This message has been edited by J (edited August 18, 2005).]
It is true that in the best case, older heads are wiser. But self-proclaimed wise men aren't very convincing, to me. It's better to show wisdom -- and one way to do that is to show respect for others, in ways they can understand.
Haven't you ever tried to explain something to a teenager, and found that they were just incapable of really understanding? Not because they lack intelligence, but because they lack experience.
For example, trying to explain to a 15-year old girl why she should do her homework, dress modestly, and not date an 18-year old dropout is like trying to explain sight to the blind. The girl's conclusions are unshakeable--but wrong. Wrong, not because her intelligence is defective, but rather because she has normal intelligence operating on insufficient data. Her data is insufficent because she hasn't had enough time to collect it. The tragedy is that she doesn't know that her data is insufficient to make a good decision unguided. Usually, an adult will try to express this fact to her, and usually the expression will be something like "you'll understand when you're older."
I think this exchange between wbriggs and J is hilarious! Why? Because here we have an adult basically saying, "I've been there, so I know what I'm talking about," and a kid basically saying, "WHATEVER!"
J is SO RIGHT on this. And someday, when wbriggs is also a grown-up, he'll do the "I've been there, so I know what I'm talking about," and some kid'll say to him, "WHATEVER!" THEN he'll get it. But ONLY then. (Deny it all you want, Will. We all did. None of us EVER thought we'd be sounding like our parents. But I'd bet we all do!)
We all have to grow up to that certain point. But at some point, we finally come to the conclusion that those older than us really have been there and they really do understand and we really should listen to their advice.
I'm old enough now that when someone older than me gives me advice I listen long and hard before discounting their advice; instead of simply discounting them because my inexperienced and inflated ego leads me to believe that they're just being evasive or self-proclaimed wise men. They ARE wise because they HAVE been there. That's all there is to it.
[This message has been edited by JmariC (edited August 18, 2005).]
Will had a good point: maybe those of us sick of this argument should just let it die. I know I am sick of it. Let's get on to something we WANT to talk about, like writing!!
RagDoll, in the interest of understanding your point of view, why did you feel Elan's statement was an attack? Feel free to quote specific phrases to illustrate your point.
(Sorry if I've stepped on your toes, Elan. I'm just really curious at the moment.)
Dang it... simulpost. If y'all are done with this, so am I, I guess.
[This message has been edited by Keeley (edited August 18, 2005).]
While I was leaning towards the "age really is magical" position based on the local evidence (the posts from teenagers), I have a good deal of life experience that tells me that there are exceptions.
I don't recall that many people ever told me that I would "understand" when I got older. For me, it was simply logical to believe that greater experience would mean that people older than me would know more. So people didn't tend to assert it every five seconds. The problem as I got older, is that it became obvious that it wasn't true. The problem was that I had assumed (based on considerable evidence) that I was the same species as those other people, and could be expected to follow a comparable developmental path. Whether or not the first is true (and it isn't worth arguing over without some more evidence), the second was definitely not true.
I was wrong to think that all I had to do was "grow up" and I'd understand the way adult humans think. What I had to do was accept that humans are irrational and mostly driven by weird impulses that I could only identify. Really understanding them was not and would never be possible for me, though I did come to understand many of the practical reasons for many human behaviors.
An interesting paradox, eh? It is normal for humans to go through a period, starting near puberty, where they begin to excessively distinquish themselves from the community that raised them. This assists in a number of survival related behaviors, like exogamy and loyalty to a mate (or several, since males don't have an instinctive sense that loyalty to one reproductive partner precludes loyalty to others, they must be taught that concept, it doesn't occur naturally). The feelings of alienation that prompt this behavior are just part of what makes humans human.
I didn't have those feelings, and nobody ever explained to me that the lack of such feelings was a definite indicator that I was different. I felt that all my "peers" were acting very strange. It never occured to me that I was the one that wasn't normal, for failing to become a teen.
On a side note, my brother, now in his early forties, thinks that fart jokes are hilarious. Not as funny as "no peeing" signs, though (part of this humor comes from asia, where you really would have found signs forbidding public urination in many places within the last decade, though I'm sure that the social norm has changed enough to render them largely redundant).
The point is that I know that there are exceptions to the rule. And I make my own judgements based on whether a person can write, not based on how old or what species I think that person happens to be.
Ok. NOW I'm done. *deep sigh*
wbriggs explanation is interesting, though I don't agree with him. But then, my experience of adolescence was very different than most teens. Because of certain factors, I didn't get frustrated with adults until I was in college. And then it wasn't a matter of age, it was a matter of expectations: I found that professors weren't people to look up to above anyone else and that all of life is politics (i.e. the act of allocating valued items... if I remember the definition correctly). Something RagDoll has just recently discovered, albeit in a writer's forum, not college. I also found that the schmucks I'd been around in high school were there at college as well and that they weren't as awful as I remembered them. Or maybe life changed them. Maybe it changed me.
Either way, I'm sorry to see good writers go and I wish them luck on their forum.
[This message has been edited by Keeley (edited August 18, 2005).]
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JMariC, I don't think that sort of thing can be conveyed -- certainly not to an unwilling party. (Or maybe we just aren't wise enough to convey it yet.) I'm just saying we can be polite about it. Really, that's all.
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RagDoll, my thought was just this: if a conversation is offensive to you, you can drop out of it, like I just did with something, above.
And welcome to the group. Got anything to post in F&F?
[Edit for simultaneous posts, or things I missed:
Bye, RagDoll.]
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited August 18, 2005).]
I have revised my mental image of you. But not my opinion of the ridiculousness of the argument.
I think it particularly interesting that you accuse the adults of ad hominem attacks when a reading of the previous posts show quite plainly that it is the youth around here who are most guilty of such. if any of the adults have stooped to addressing what's wrong with the person rather than addressing the issue, it's because the issue has been ignored by the youth, who think a logical argument/explanation IS a personal attack.
How insulting is that?
I found the discussion in F&F on your story "Damaged" very enjoyable. I tend to agree with a lot of what the older folk have been saying...there has been a lot of immature behavior on the site lately, and I've gotten frustrated with a member now and again. I don't know their ages, though. They could have been thirteen or fifty-three. They were probably older than me. (For reference, yes, I'm older than eighteen, but still younger than most on this site). Immature behavior, from whatever age-source, annoys me. Anyway, all of that was really to say -- if you post in F&F again, I for one will look it up and take you seriously. It's hard to post this, because I mostly agree with the adults posting, and I'm probably not making myself popular...but, KDW said you were okay to stay, and so I welcome you here. Hope you do well.
I guess i'll hang around, and I'll try to be a touch less emotional.
That's a good general rule in life, by the way. Be more, rather than less.
http://www.phpbbforfree.com/forums/?mforum=writers
Sincerely,
-Kgator
p.s: as you can see from the note below, it would be best to sign on after Monday, August 22nd.
* Please Note *
The phpbbforfree.com dedicated server will be going down Sunday the 21st of August at 7pm EST or later for software upgrades, mass backup, and a dedicated server move/upgrade. All hosted forums will be offline during this time. Forum usage will return Monday into Tuesday morning.
I'll offer a little advice based on my observations of the now defunct Hatrack Young Writer's Workshop:
1. Let it be a sanctuary for the young. Much of the trouble at the YWW was immature adults acting like bullies. I know that some might interpret the strong resistance to young people joining our forum as bullying. And it's too bad we all let it go that far. But there is some difference. When the little kids push themselves into the big kids circle, they've got to expect some rough treatment, and they've got to expect to have to work VERY hard to prove themselves without whining about the rough treatment or the big kids' resistance to them being there at all. When the bullies push their way into the little kids' circle and start shoving people around, they're just being mean.
2. Keep a tight rein on etiquette. Just like around here, you simply cannot tolerate immaturity or rudeness. Things can degenerate to chaos quickly.
Or are things going poorly for you in other ways?
The group is the largest collection of former members of the Hatrack YW Forums.
Consider looking at the link or, if you're in communication with a young writer looking for a community, forward them to that site, if you would.
Thanks.
-----------
Wellington
[This message has been edited by 'Graff (edited August 07, 2006).]
...come up with something better so that I can come to YOU for advice!
mikemunsil
Hey, you got 5 regulars, you've got a start. It's worth a try. (You might also post a new thread here, or wherever She suggests, to lure in new writers.)
Or are things going poorly for you in other ways?
Well see here's the deal... I remember the old topic on age and maturity, and I started to notice that the "harshness" (more like EXTREME helpfulness) wasn't really the type of encouragement that I needed. You see, the way I write, I like it better for people to tell me how great it is. That way I feel more skeptical and find more problems to make the story better. I realized that I was in the majority on this issue... anyway the point is that generally at this point in my writing experience I would rather learn by myself than be guided by the host of you very intelligent people.
SO, I devised (along with member "Moonshine") to make a young writers select group of people.
I advertised this here in the groups section, and then I realized the banner at the top. I was dissapointed that it appeared a day after the opening of my forum and I felt that this was where I would get the majority of my memberships from--people who, like me, learn more from themselves than by being... I hate to say "forced" but that's the way it felt when I submitted here. Not that there is anything wrong with that, just that I don't respond that well to that method of teaching.
Anyway, that's why I made this topic... to basically say, "hey, you just cut off one tof the major flows to my future members!" Now unfortunately this has dissolved down into yet ANOTHER age discussion, and while the rest of you have put it behind, I was on vacation... so this is where I rant on and on about why I was dissapointed once more to find that people here were unknowingly doing the exact same thing I was... creating forums for young people. Then I realized how biased I was being about myself and I instantly knew that the people at my forum would have to be... like me, learning because they have the desire (not that any serious writer lacks it... but I usually have a difficult time explaining my abstract ideas to others... unless of course they completely understand in that wierd way).
I looked into another positive flow of positive writers on a literature bulliten board. My message was modded and deleted from the records, and my account took a (minor) hit. ALthough I did pull one member out who saw it before it was deleted, my forum is still left with 5 people while other forums around me are doing the same.
So if the above description of my trials has you a tidbit interested, and you are of young age, I would appreciate you contacting me as soon as possible at dimensionsoldier@gmail.com
I WILL not give out the link so that any of those "seriously immature" people leak into MY site.
Thank you, and (as I have stated before) I completely understand the responses of the adults here... you have to take everything in perspective... that's how I (try) to run my life. So I can see where you all come from.
As I scan through this topic, I would request at least that RagDoll and mythopoetic talk to me on the issue...
Sorry to cause another wave but... DANGIT IT'S MY TURN!