I came across these the other day on Robert J. Sawyer's website. I thought they were cool and very thought-provoking (in that "oh yeah . . ." kind of way). I imagine that many of you have seen the rules. They are at http://www.sfwriter.com/ow05.htm
[This message has been edited by Lanius (edited June 19, 2005).]
Posted by Phanto (Member # 1619) on :
Good rules. Success comes on the wings of yellow birds.
Posted by Silver3 (Member # 2174) on :
yup, totally agree.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 2444) on :
I've seen that before. I stumbled across RJS's site about two years ago and it was those rules and a brief e-mail exchange with him that got me back on the road to writing.
And then four months ago my PC died and took everything with it. Ugh.
It isn't difficult to ascertain that I am now a big fan of backing up my data. :P
I just wish I'd re-read RJS's take on rule #2 a few days ago. LOL
Posted by Shendülféa (Member # 2408) on :
Some good rules. I follow most of them. The only one I don't follow is the one that says you shouldn't tinker endlessly with your work. That's precisely what I do. I should stop that, but being a perfectionist, it's just so hard!
Posted by tchernabyelo (Member # 2651) on :
I seem to have fallen down on rules four and five.
I really must try and find markets for the handful of finished shorts I have, while I continue work on novel after novel after novel...
Posted by Blue_Rabbit (Member # 2634) on :
I'd need to work on rule 5 and 6. Gosh, how encouraging it sounds! I'm goint to submit the story once more ) I've started another project already. Does that count? Posted by Silver3 (Member # 2174) on :
Yeah, but he is right about the tinkering. I should know, I'm a perfectionnist too, but I know that there's a point when you shelve the story, declare it finished even if it breaks your heart, and send it anyway. And I should add: don't revise too much afterwards. Focus on something else. I tried it, and six months after first writing the story isn't the same as the day after. You tend to lose the style and feel for the characters.
Posted by cklabyrinth (Member # 2454) on :
Hmm, I'm confused. How did RJS sell a story, then turn around and sell it again in a few days to an anthology? I know nothing about publication rights, so, can anyone explain this to me please? Thanks.
Good link, by the way.
Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :
There are a number of different rights, and they can be sold independently. reselling a story to an anthology days after it's sold to the first market seems unusual but it would depend on what rights he sold to the first market, and what rights he sold to the second market.
Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
Magazines generally buy "first serial rights" -- the rights to print the story for the first time in a serial publication.
After selling those rights, RJS then sold the story to an anthology that was looking only for reprint rights. (Why would an anthology only want reprints? 1. Reprint rights generally cost less. 2. It cuts down on the slush pile if the work must have already been sold somewhere else.)
Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :
(I should clarify that the only part I thought was unusual was the timing.)
Posted by cklabyrinth (Member # 2454) on :
Anyone know a good way to find anthologies? Is ralan's good for that area as well?
Thanks for the answers, also, Beth and Eric.
Posted by rickfisher (Member # 1214) on :
Yes, ralan is good for anthologies.
Posted by TheoPhileo (Member # 1914) on :
The last several times I've been into Charbucks (I'm a coffee connoisseur... don't get me started), I've had cups with little quotes on them. One I've seen pop up a few times was, "A writer is someone who has written today." I thought it was a profound and accurate dictum, one which I have repeated to myself several times since.
Posted by autumnmuse (Member # 2136) on :
Ooh, I should get that tattoed backwards on my forehead so I'll be reminded of that every time I look in the mirror. What a great inspirational quote!!!
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
You know, taping it to your mirror might be a little more...discreet?
On the other hand, now I have a mental image of you that is easy to remember and sort of charming, in it's own special way.
I do like the quote, but I like "a writer is someone who writes" quite a bit better. Many of the world's greatest writers haven't written anything today, after all. In fact, I don't know if you can be a great writer if you're not open to simply experiencing life at times without needing to write about it that day.
It's a good affirmation for anyone that is seeking a more euphonious alternative to BIC, though. I personally don't like that, as I am sitting on my bed even as I type this Also, the location of my butt, whether relative to an object of furniture or in some more general sense, does not have anything to do with whether I'm a good writer. Actually writing does.
And...today is a good day to write
Posted by Dark Warrior (Member # 8822) on :
Revisiting the standards helps me gear up for a new or recurring goal...my current goal is the WOTF refresh.
Posted by Phobos (Member # 8883) on :
We have to keep in mind that there is a tremendous variation in the industry standard between now and the time in which Heinlein regularly submitted work.
Specifically not as much attention to craft was upheld. Stories were more readily recieved for their story element as opposed to wordcrafting. Just to name one. Editing is far more important nowadays.
Posted by posulliv (Member # 8147) on :
Living by the five rules is hard. But not as hard as not living by them.
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
(Boy, that's really pulling one out of the files...)
I'm inclined to do deference to the Rules of Heinlein...but I'm also not inclined to put the garbage I wrote up through the late eighties back on the market again---not at least without some serious rewriting.
Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :
I think the rules DO apply. But, I think so many authors have redefined them, that some of them are misconstrued.
You Must Write
You Must Finish What You Start
You Must Refrain From ReWriting Except to Editorial Order
You Must Put Your Story On The Market
You Must Keep Your Story On The Market Until It Has Sold
The first two are simple, but if you keep them in mind on a daily basis, you will produce a product to sell.
Number three is the source of most contention. I've heard that it means everything from "Write only a First Draft" to "Abandon it when you have gone through enough times to change it back to the original". The definition I believe he meant is Kevin J. Anderson's interpretation: Once you have finished it, edited it, workshopped it, polished it and are happy with it, send it out. Unless an editor will commit to buying it with certain changes (or suggests changes that you feel are beneficial), don't change it--jut send it out to another editor. Editor's could dislike a story because a main character's name is Lucy and they just broke it off with a Lucy. So, take everything with a gain of salt. Because, if you take every editorial suggestion, just beause it's an editor telling you that, you might as well just keep rewriting.
Rules four and five are basic. How can you sell anything when nothing's out there to buy? And, persistence is the key to selling consitently. Now, whether you like Kevin J. Anderson's work (which I do) or not, he has 47 national or international best sellers. So, if he says persistence is the key, and he is an example of Heinlein's Rules in practice, they're not outdated. Even Brandon Sanderson, who was where we are a little over four years ago, attests to that.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited April 01, 2010).]
Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :
It makes me sad when I read that Brandon Sanderson was where we were four or five years ago because so was I. And I'm still here. Runs off into the corner to cry because I haven't been following the rules.
Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :
quote:It makes me sad when I read that Brandon Sanderson was where we were four or five years ago because so was I. And I'm still here.
No, no. You're looking at it all wrong. Four years ago, he was still submitting novels. I think he said he had ten written before Elantris sold. That doesn't come close to indicating how long he was where we are.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Brandon Sanderson, as I understand it, sat down and wrote ten novels before he had one that he thought was publishable, and that's the one he submitted. (So he wrote his million words first, and then started shopping things around.)
Posted by rstegman (Member # 3233) on :
I read a piece by Isaac Asimov where he said that Heinlein never edited his work. He wrote the first draft and sent it off. Asimov tried to do that and found he had to edit it at least once.
Most of us don't have the talent or skills of them, and we have to edit more and more.
My problem is that I edit the wrong kind of stuff so my work never reaches the level to even consider sending off.
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
I don't know what Asimov said---I can't recall running across it---but I do know Heinlein edited quite a bit, sometimes as he went, but usually at the end. Apparently he wrote long and then cut. It's said that he couldn't do the editing on I Will Fear No Evil because of extremely serious illness, and it fell to his wife to do a little trimming and then release it, more or less, as is.
Posted by sholar (Member # 3280) on :
Didn't Sanderson also have a lot of trouble initially with editing/ rewriting (as in he didn't do it)? I thought that was in one of his podcasts- that learning how to rewrite was the most important skill for him (but I could totally be confusing people- I read a lot of writer's blogs).
Posted by aspirit (Member # 7974) on :
Carrie Vaughn (author of the Kitty Norville urban fantasy series, the new Voices of Dragon YA novel, the upcoming Discord's Apple, and dozens of short stories) has said that she didn't learn how to write professionally until she learned to revise. I've heard more than one well-known fiction author use some form of the saying, "I'm not a good writer; I'm a good rewriter."
So, I tend to interpret Rule #3 as "You Must Not Kill Your Stories Through Unnecessary Revisions".
Posted by Brendan (Member # 6044) on :
quote:I've heard more than one well-known fiction author use some form of the saying, "I'm not a good writer; I'm a good rewriter."
Yet Holly Lisle (a well known fantasy writer and teacher of writing) states that the difference between an amateur and a professional is that the professional doesn't rewrite (except for a grammer/spelling check) - (s)he doesn't have the time. I think that she sees this as an efficiency thing, the more one has written, the less they need to revise to fix basic mistakes.
Posted by Smaug (Member # 2807) on :
Well, I think there are as many techniques for getting the job done as there are writers--professional or not. I'm sure you could find many well known writers who do four or five drafts of their books--and many others who only have to make rudimentary changes.
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
I think I've said it before, but I've come to think Heinlein was a little disingenuous about any number of things---his personal life, his politics, and his writing. Maybe more than a little.
Volume One of a big biography of Heinlein is supposed to come out sometime this year...I regret I don't remember the title. Let me look it up...ah here it is on Amazon-dot-com:
I'm goint to submit the story once more 
Also, the location of my butt, whether relative to an object of furniture or in some more general sense, does not have anything to do with whether I'm a good writer. Actually writing does.