According to my records, you signed up on 21 July 2004. That's more than a month, for which I apologize.

But I haven't lost you. And I am planning on starting some new groups and reorganizing others after the Labor-Day weekend.
 

I imagine kdw is, in part, waiting to see how many of us newbies that sign up actually stick around, see how actively we participate, gauge personalities to try and get well-fit groups, etc.

Think of her as an artist: A true masterpiece simply cannot be rushed!

Susan
 

I wish taking time would ensure the viability of a group.

I'm just glad I keep records (and that I can find them when I need them--you ought to see my desk!) Computers help that way, at least.
 

I can see if I have enough short story writers to make up a group.

Maybe I should explain a bit about how I do groups, and why it can take a while, and how even then it doesn't guarantee that a group will work out.

When someone signs up for a group, I put them on one of the waiting lists, with notes about what they've said on their sign-up form.

The waiting lists are novel, varied-length fiction, varied-length fiction and nonfiction, varied length fiction and poetry, and varied-length fiction, nonfiction, and poetry.

In the notes I say whether they are in school (because I try to keep those in school in groups together), what kinds of stuff they are working on (SF, mysteries, lit, etc) and what kinds of stuff they don't want to read (romance, SF/F, horror, etc).

Around the beginning of each month, I go through the lists and see if there are enough people to put into groups using all of these bits of information.

Sometimes, someone will say that any genre is okay, or that they are writing only fiction, but they're willing to read poetry and nonfiction (or they're open in some other way). Those people are easier to place in a group than those who are more focussed (so to speak). I try not to put them with the more focussed ones, if I can help it, though. Focussed people tend to get along better with others as focussed as they are.

I usually end up having to wait until there are quite a few people in the waiting lists so that I have some flexibility, and that means I tend to create a bunch of groups at a time.

Then I wait for people to introduce themselves, and for the groups to get going. Most of them manage to get through the introductions, but as many as half of them stop there--I think they are waiting for someone else to make the next move.

Finally, someone will email me and say that they haven't heard anything from anyone in the group, and do I know what happened? I will send around an email, and about half the time there will be a couple of the other people who have also wondered what happened.

If they are willing, I try them again with another group--usually one that has had people leave because LIFE HAPPENED or because they realized they couldn't really participate after all, and there aren't enough people for a group.

There have been people who have been willing to try again and again until I finally find a group that works for them. When a group works, it is a lovely thing to see. <sigh!>

But most of the groups don't work, or they only work for a few months. When I started this job, OSC told me the groups should only be together for a year. He believes people have learned everything they can from each other by the time a year is over. I haven't had to do that very often.

I'm glad we also have this forum, because I think it helps people in ways that groups can't. I think the groups, when they work, help people in other ways. It's good to have more than one way to help people here at Hatrack.

So, that's how it works--now, at least. I hope this gives you all some idea of things.

I am always open to suggestions.

I do have space for a short stories only list, J P, and I will see if there are enough people to make up a group, if you want to send in your information. (I probably still have your old information, but it's on a different computer, and it may have changed a little in the interim.)

[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited September 08, 2004).]
 

We don't expect novels to be completed, but if you only have fragments of shorter works, you'd really need to have quite a few of them--your turn will come around faster than you expect.

It's basically a matter of being able to participate. If you haven't done much in the way of writing, you may not be able to be of much use to people who have done some writing. You haven't "been there, done that."

Also, people who are submitting material for feedback are more likely to actually be involved in giving feedback (barring those who leave after getting feedback, of course--there will always be those people).

The "requirement" came about after I saw too many people flake out on their groups because they just didn't have anything to send when it was their turn, and I think they flaked out because they didn't have any real connection or commitment to the group since they didn't have anything already written that they wanted feedback on. (Does that make sense?)

As long as you have something that you're actually working on, you qualify. Even if you don't know where to go with it next, you can ask the rest of the group to help you brainstorm (as we do in the forum at times) so that you can keep writing.

As Survivor says, once a group is going, the members can decide what they'll do and how they will do it.
 

I will try to sort through the absolute sludge ahead of time, but maybe I might actually write something worthwhile. Anything can happen, right? The prep I am doing is a lot of outlining and character notes, world-building and history. I am still stuck on some key events, but my goal is to have enough story to go on by Nov. to bang out the whole novel. I do write quickly when I want to, I can write a 2000 word short story in about an hour once I have the idea.

Anyway, all that to say, I will probably apply to join a group in either December or January, but not until then. Thanks for clarifying for me!
 

Kathleen does a wonderful job with the groups. I was in one of the rare ones that lasted a year, over a year (we then had to disband or leave Hatrack)(we left)--with the core of the group remaining the same for that year.

Now, three years later? I think it's been three, some of us still belong to the same group, now I run it, but we still call ourselves Group 6--even if we do things a bit differently.

Here's a good list to how to make a crit group work:

1.) Agree to confidentiality. This means don’t go to your neighbor and say Man, so and so in my crit group writes crap—and then tell them about the story you just critted.
2.) Brainstorm. If you haven't started your manuscript yet, that doesn't mean a critique group is not for you. Critique groups can help you generate ideas that may motivate you to start and finish your book.
3.) Check your ego at the door. If you want your writing to improve, you have to learn to accept constructive criticism. It's nothing personal, and it doesn't mean you're a bad person, or a bad writer.
4.) Elaborate. Vague comments such as "That scene isn't working" don't do the author much good. It's more useful to give comments like "This scene might work better if you cut out some of the introspection. I get so caught up with his thoughts that I lose track of the action."
5.) Find something positive to say. Identifying the author's strengths is just as important as identifying his or her weaknesses.
6.) Give your first-read reactions. Let the author know what you're feeling as you read his or her work. Do you feel sympathetic toward the heroine? Is the pacing too slow for your taste? This kind of feedback allows the author to decide if your reactions are the ones she intended. BUT—don’t be too quick to say, I don’t get it—if you read a bit (several paragraphs and still don’t get it—go back and make a note of it)
7.) Include a list of questions* at the end of your manuscript. This will give your critique partners the opportunity to focus on the areas that bother you the most.
8.) Please no more than 2,500 to 3,000 words per week—remember you must do three crits of others work before you get crits of your work. *** only in here because it applies to my group--not Hatrack.
9.) Mark mechanical errors. Spelling and grammar checkers don't catch everything.
10.) Notice improvement. Let your partners know how their writing is progressing over a period of time.
11.) Offer your expertise. If you're particularly good at punctuation, or you have a talent for transitions, share that with your group.
12.) Meet group deadlines—get used to them, writers deal with them all the time.
13.) Quash negativity. Try not to harbor bad feelings toward other group members, and deliver your comments with tact and respect.
14.) Refrain from defending your work. You could probably explain away every comment your critique partner comes up with, but you don't have that option with your editor.
15.) Share your weaknesses. If you have areas that you think need work, let your partners know so they can help.
16.) Thank your critique partners for their input. Participation takes time and effort; show your appreciation.
17.) Use the suggestions you find helpful, but don't feel bad if you don't. It's your writing; you don't have to make changes that make you uncomfortable.
18.) Volunteer your overall impression. Let the author know what you think of his or her work as a whole. If you're looking forward to seeing more, say so.
19.) Yield with good grace when you make an honest mistake.

well, that's my addition to it--BTW it took three groups for me to find one that fit---Kathleen does a good job, you just have to do your part to get things going and keep them going.

Shawn (back to lurkdom)

[This message has been edited by srhowen (edited September 10, 2004).]
 

Oh, but now I feel bad because I've completely lost track of how many groups I've completely killed. I feel like a bad person. Nobody ever wants to stay in a group if I'm one of the members.

It might have something to do with my miasma of pure evil or something. I should get that checked.
 

Maybe what we should do is repost the list in the Ways to Critique section and I'll just refer people to it.
 

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that we couldn't find one person over in the Fragments and Feedback area who wouldn't like to be in a group with you.

So, yeah, evil miasma and all that jazz, you do have something to offer, and we appreciate your support.
 

There is a reason I am not getting any groups organized as I had planned this month, and for that I apologize most grovelingly.

The reason is that I am in charge of a writers conference that will be held next month in Salt Lake City, and I'm scrambling like crazy to get the schedule locked down.

For those of you who might be in the area, this is the basic blurb on it.

The Association for Mormon Letters announces its 2004 Writers Conference, "Writing with Honesty" to be held October 16, 2004 at Westminster College, 1840 South 1300 East, Salt Lake City, Utah in the Gore Auditorium from 9am to 5pm (registration will open at 8:30am).

AnnePerry is our keynote speaker, and she will be joined by writers, editors, and publishers representatives from the Intermountain area.

Pre-registration cost is $40 ($30 for students with ID and AML members) by
October 1, 2004.

At the door registration is $15 more, so register early.

Lunch is $13, and you may choose between chicken piccata and vegetable lasagna.

There will also be Lucky 13 workshops which are an additional $5. For more information about them, please go to

http://www.aml-online.org/events/lucky13.html

Checks or money orders should be sent to Association for Mormon Letters, P O Box 51364, Provo, UT 84605-1364 or you may pre-register online at

http://www.aml-online.org/events/aml2004wcr.html

If you have questions, please email us at aml@aml-online.org

 

Please come up and introduce yourself when you see me.