I have freely admitted in the past that, among other things, I am a very emotional person. I react to stimuli with varying degrees of anger or sadness, but usually I can reign these feelings in after letting them sit for a while, or especially after going out and taking a walk. For some reason, this time it's not working. HSO has impugned my manners and my very character, and continues to defend his behavior. If people really feel this way about me, then I no longer need to partipcate in this forum. For over a year now, I have listened, commented, provided opinions and device, and even debated, but never has anyone accused me of being uncaring (or of not having demonstrated my caring) or of having poor manners.

I have not yet decided if I will stay or if I will go. I'm not going to make a dramatic farewell address and then recant a few days later. But I will give my perspective on forum ettiquette.

At all times, we are compassionate and respectful of other people's feelings.

That's pretty much it, in my opinion. I can see why someone would want please's and thank you's to become a part of decorum, as they have become a useful meter by which society judges manners, but these are superficial. An unmeant and unearned thank you is hollow,. A required thank you is meaningless.

More to the point, making someone cry by telling them that they are rude and have forgotten to thank you has got to be considered worse ettiquette than simply not saying the thank you in the first place. I have said thank you many times and in many cases, but always when I say it you can know I mean it because something inside me said, "Hey, that was nice, you should say thank you."

I'm going to go read a book in the tub right now and try to forget about all this.
 

If we can find some middle ground in the near future, I'd like that.

I like both of you. HSO has been very kind off the board. Christine is as well. You have both reached a point where it is not possible to back down.

If anyone else chimes in with opinions about who is right and who is not, this will continue. So don't. May I suggest that we handle this the way we handle irreconcilable differences in the South?

Let's change the subject and talk about the weather. It's hot in Portland and I hear Iceland is having a heatwave. Record breaking 72 degrees.

[This message has been edited by MaryRobinette (edited August 13, 2004).]
 

Look, I feel awful, so I'm just going to say a few mea culpas and be done with it.
 

Being polite is good.
Not being polite is bad.

Don't leave!
 

Considering the problem of taking up space in the forum for posts that the less meticulous feel should be "understood" (similar to the question of whether to send someone an email that only says "you're welcome" when they've sent you an email that only says "thank you"--it almost seems superfluous to do all that emailing back and forth), how about if we use something that may be considered by the more meticulous to be a bit of cheating?

What I'm suggesting is that whenever someone starts a topic by asking for information, they try to remember to include something along the lines of "any help would be greatly appreciated" and leave it at that. (The email analog is including a "thanks" ahead of time at the end of the email request, even though the recipient has as yet done nothing for which to be thanked.)

I think we are (or at least should be) people of good will, and people of good will should give others the benefit of the doubt when there is a potential for misunderstandings. And I submit that nowhere is there a greater potential for misunderstandings than online. Smileys just don't help enough.

To paraphase someone (three points if you get the allusion here), "never attribute to malice what can be attributed to absent-minded good will."

And if you feel tempted to take personally something said online (especially something that is obviously--to you--intended to be taken personally), just consider the source.

Judith Martin (aka Miss Manners) has said time and time again that the only people who are allowed to tell someone else they are rude are parents, and they are only allowed to say so to their own children when those children are minors; everyone else who calls someone rude is also being rude.

I'm not going to tell anyone that he or she was rude in accusing someone else of being rude, since I'm not anyone's parent and we're all supposed to be over 18 here.

I'm just going to ask that we all behave with more good will in the future.

And I'm going to ask Christine to please not leave. Your participation here has made my job a thousand times easier, Christine, and I would miss you sorely.
 

I would hate to see you go, Christine, you are a valuable resource. Hopefully things can cool down and you'll decide to stay.
-----
BTW, We're looking at scortching 30 degrees here in Calgary for the whole week-end! It may even get up to 35 Time to hit the beach!
 

Christine, don't leave. It sounds like HSO is willing to declare a truce.

As for lil' ol me here in northern Texas, the temperature is currently 82 degrees and some cottony clouds are drifting above.
 

I would suggest that everyone take a breather and go out and have some fun. Do whatever you have a mind to do and enjoy! Live life outside of that 8X10 room you do all of your "bleeding on the page" and lock it up for one day. It won't hurt, I promise.

I just want to say, that I appreciate everyone here, the good the bad and the ugly. Variety IS the spice of life, cliche or not. I feel that I have grown so much over the year that I have been a participant on these boards. I am greatly indebted to everyone here for that percieved growth.

Thank you.

It's Friday for hell sakes. Nobody is allowed to be unhappy on Friday. It is now 5:00 I am hittin' the trail. I have milked the clock long enough, Everyone have a good weekend!

The problem is that somehow everyone (including HSO) became convinced that this was a serious demand of some kind.

I think that probably some of us do this because it's a form of volunteer effort, but almost all of us (including the ones that know the right way to think about volunteer work) do it mostly for our own pleasure. I'm going to require that you all express appropriate gratitude for the many hours I spend defending my computer from aliens/robots/mutants by playing various hyper-violent computer games. Be ye warned, I will laugh merrily at everyone that takes this demand seriously. Just you wait a few weeks, and I will post my demand. Anyone that takes me seriously and gets bent out of shape will be subject to ridicule.
 

I value you both. Christine, please stay.

Here in southeast Texas we've had a few VERY atypical but pleasant August days. The temperature never broke 90F, I believe.

Eh. Who wants to live forever?

[This message has been edited by cvgurau (edited August 13, 2004).]
 

It's been raining in Maryland. Not as bad as in Florida (my condolences to anyone out there).

But honestly, aren't you all watching the Olympics Opening Ceremonies??? For those of you who plan to but need to wait because it is not on yet, I won't spoil the surprises.

However.

They do a cool bit at the end, before the parade of nations, that illustrates that though we are different, we are the same deep down.

Procrastinate on your writing, watch it, and feel good. (unless you were supposed to go and something happened - then go write).
 

Now if we could just get some rain...

Susan

PS: BOTH of you, Christine and HSO, please stay and make nice. Please?

PPS: If any of our members are in Florida, we hope you are safe from Charley!

I don't know if she'll leave the board -- and I certainly hope she doesn't. I've asked her not to go, but obviously the decision is for her to make.

I would suspect she appreciates all of your support nonetheless. If she does leave, then feel free to blame me for it.

Fair enough?
 

Are you going to thank me for every post I've made, because you've missed a few here and there.

(joking... not serious... no malicious intent... maybe a bit of sarcasm... nothing to see here, move along, you... )
 

Please stay. Please.

 

I will not leave. I still enjoy this community of writers too much. When I finally succeed in selling my first piece of fiction I want to shout it out to this group. I also want to continue to share my knowledge and my opinions (I usually know the difference ) to the new members who wander across this site.

There is a however coming....as I'm sure you knew. I'm spending too much time here. I have already cut back my critiques to no more than one a week, two if they are short. (Posting word count helps me to determine this.) As much as I'm sure I will suffer from withdrawl, I also need to curb my participation in this forum. I haven't decided how much curbing I need to do yet, but keeping a window open behind my word document and cutting over to surf the internet every hour is not helping me reach my goals. I am tempted to cut my internet access during the day and only check in at night, or maybe less often as I try to break free of the habit.

In any case, I will not abandon you, but I hope you will understand if my participation becomes less fervent over the course of the next few weeks. I want to finish my novel by October. (sometime in the middle of the month, I think.) In fact, why don't I make the public promise on this thread right here that I will finish my novel by October? Actually, I'll do one better, before I sign out for the weekend I'm going to start a new thread that I hope everyone will appreciate.
 

This is a very strange thread.

 

quote:

---

You know, what makes this funny (in an evil way) is that HSO was joking about wanting to be explicitly thanked.

---

HSO:

quote:

---

I am amazed at how nothing gets past you, Survivor.

---

I am not surprised that you fellows (and it's obvious you're both males) understand each other clearly. You have similar communication styles. Because I am only one person I cannot judge whether these styles are objectively good or bad. But I can say that both of you confuse the bejeezus out of me.

Survivor, you already know how easily I misinterpret your writing. Your use of language seems excellent, so I attribute these difficulties to some foundation of beliefs which are often part of your message but usually go unstated.

HSO, I've read your posts but never addressed you directly until now. Hello. I have a guess at why you and Christine ran into this trouble, and advice that could prevent future confusion. See Strunk & White (4th ed) page 70, reminder number one.

Good luck.

[This message has been edited by Doc Brown (edited August 15, 2004).]
 

And the second question is: Do I need to get that book?

EDIT: Well, about Survivor: I personally find his cynicism a treat. It's not often I meet people that are more cynical than me. Rock on, brah!

I know what you're saying, Doc... reading something from Survivor can throw you. But, despite my inherent cynicism, I really don't think he means any ill-will over what he says. And if he does... oh, well.

[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 15, 2004).]
 

You know, if you didn't care, you wouldn't bother. Or maybe you would. People [...] strangest things.
 

I have the third edition, and #1 on page 70 of that edition says "place yourself in the background" and goes on to explain: "Write in a way that draws the reader's attention to the sense and substance of the writing, rather than to the mood and temper of the author. If the writing is good, the mood and temper of the writer will eventually be revealed, and not at the expense of the work."

There's more, and it's about style and how "a careful and honest writer does not need to worry about style...."

I don't know if that is what Doc Brown is suggesting, but it's good advice in any case; and, again, I strongly urge anyone who wants to improve as a writer to run (don't walk) out and buy a copy of ELEMENTS OF STYLE.

And READ IT!
 

HSO, I interpreted your comments exactly as Christine did, and it may be because you sometimes violates Strunk & White's reminder #1 in your written communication. Your words seem intended to draw attention to you rather than the substance of your message.

The Elements of Style by William Strunk and E.B. White is barely larger than a comic book. It costs less than $10 new, yet its advice is preceless. Every writer should read it, or a similar handbook. Better writers actually own the book. The world's finest writers refer to it when we discuss writing, occasionally quoting it. Right, Kathleen?
 

I'm very grateful for your recommendation, Doc, and I'll certainly investigate it. Not only am I interested in being a better writer, but I'm aware that I could stand to refine my online communication skills, too (or at least the perception of my attitude).

You can read the full text of Elements of Style at this site. Bartleby is a good resource for book texts in general (as long as the book is old enough )
 

I'd forgotten about Bartleby's until recently but it comes in handy for all kinds of info nuggets One of my tech writing profs used to recommend it all the time.

[This message has been edited by Robyn_Hood (edited August 16, 2004).]