How do you all handle vulgarity in your fiction? Obviously if it just doesn't bother you to profanity in your work then it's not a problem, but for me it's a problem. I try to keep it clean, but it's difficult to do that and still "keep it real." Example: What does the hardened criminal say when he gets shot in the hand. "Oh crap" and, "doggone it" just don't cut it, but I don't want to drop the S-word in there. Or when a hooker gets busted for plying her trade, does she call the cop a "stupid butthole" or a "jerky crapface?" I don't think so. However, the words she would actually use are words I won't use, so how do you go about representing her accurately? Is there a way, or do I just have to write about cleaner things if I want to make my clean language fit?
Example for me would be that the main character of mine is a cop ( who's blown up in his 69 T-bird ) but his years on the force hardend him to blend into his environment. ( The streets )
Just an example. Thanks for reading this.
Bryan
*****
"Put the money in the bag!" Joe growled as he showed his gun to the bank teller.
The teller's pug face went instantly pale but he took the bag from Joe and began putting the money from his drawer into it. Good, everything was going good.
Joe thought he would make a clean getaway when he heard the sound of approaching sirens. Maybe they weren't for him. Maybe they wre going someplace else.
They screeched to a halt directly in front of the bank. Joe swore loudly and grabbed the money from the teller, sizing up his options. He did not want to get into a hostage situation. Maybe there was a back way out.
"Is there another way out of this building?" Joe asked the trembling teller.
"Y-yes," the man pointed and Joe ran for it, hoping he could make it out before the police had the building surrounded.
When he opened the back door and steppd into the alley, he breathed in the smell of freedom. It smelled exactly like garbage, but he did not care. He began making his way down the alley and out onto a side street.
"Hold it right there!"
Joe froze. Two cops waitd for him at the end of the alley.
"Put the gun down and put your hands where we can see them."
He would have to shoot them. He had no choice. It was all that pug-faced teller's fault; he had pushed the alarm button. Very slowly, Joe began to lower the gun to the ground, pretending that he would lay it down. At the last second he changed direction, aimed, and fired at the cop on the left. A second later he had another bullet zooming towards the cop on the right.
He had not even heard the cop fire over the noise of his own weapon, but when he looked down he saw the blood pouring from his own chest. Strange, he couldn't actually feel it. He put his hand to his chest and lightly dabbed at the blood. His hand came away dark red.
He knew no more.
**********
I'm going to try this again with a moderate level of cussing, just to see what the cussing adds:
********
"Put the money in the bag!" Joe growled as he showed his gun to the bank teller.
The teller's pug face went instantly pale but he took the bag from Joe and began putting the money from his drawer into it. Good, everything was going good.
Joe thought he would make a clean getaway when he heard the sound of approaching sirens. Oh shit. Maybe they weren't for him. Maybe they wre going someplace else.
They screeched to a halt directly in front of the bank. Joe swore loudly and grabbed the money from the teller, sizing up his options. He did not want to get into a hostage situation. Maybe there was a back way out.
"Is there another way out of this building?" Joe asked the trembling teller.
"Y-yes," the man pointed and Joe ran for it, hoping he could make it out before the police had the building surrounded.
When he opened the back door and steppd into the alley, he breathed in the smell of freedom. It smelled exactly like garbage, but he did not care. He began making his way down the alley and out onto a side street.
"Hold it right there!"
God damn it to hell. Two cops waitd for him at the end of the alley.
"Put the gun down and put your hands where we can see them."
He would have to shoot them. He had no choice. It was all that pug-faced teller's fault; he had pushed the alarm button. Very slowly, Joe began to lower the gun to the ground, pretending that he would lay it down. At the last second he changed direction, aimed, and fired at the cop on the left. A second later he had another bullet zooming towards the cop on the right.
He had not even heard the cop fire over the noise of his own weapon, but when he looked down he saw the blood pouring from his own chest. Strange, he couldn't actually feel it. He put his hand to his chest and lightly dabbed at the blood. His hand came away dark red.
He knew no more.
**********
not, let's try it with a lot of cussing, the so-called "realistic" method. Just to be fair, this is REALLY uncomfortable for me. If cussing offends you, definitely don't read this version.
**********
"Put the money in the ****ing bag!" Joe growled as he showed his gun to the bank teller.
The teller's pug face went instantly pale but he took the bag from Joe and began putting the money from his drawer into it. Good, everything was going good.
Joe thought he would make a clean getaway when he heard the sound of approaching sirens. Oh shit. Maybe they weren't for him. Maybe they wre going someplace else.
They screeched to a halt directly in front of the bank. "****!" Joe grabbed the money from the teller, sizing up his options. He did not want to get into a hostage situation. Maybe there was a back way out.
"You goddamned mother ****er, I should kill you where you stand. How do I get out of here?"
The man pointed and Joe ran for it, hoping he could make it out before the police had the building surrounded.
When he opened the back door and steppd into the alley, he breathed in the smell of freedom. It smelled exactly like shit, but he did not care. He began making his way down the alley and out onto a side street.
"Hold it right there!"
****. Two cops waitd for him at the end of the alley.
"Put the gun down and put your hands where we can see them."
God damn it. He would have to shoot them. He had no choice. It was all that ****ing teller's fault; he had pushed the alarm button. Very slowly, Joe began to lower the gun to the ground, pretending that he would lay it down. At the last second he changed direction, aimed, and fired at the cop on the left. A second later he had another bullet zooming towards the cop on the right.
He had not even heard the cop fire over the noise of his own weapon, but when he looked down he saw the blood pouring from his own chest. Strange, he couldn't actually feel it. He put his hand to his chest and lightly dabbed at the blood. His hand came away dark red.
He knew no more.
********
I don't know...I was just playing, maybe. I don't cuss well in real life, so i guess I don't do it in fiction, either. But it seems to me that the best way to avoid cussing if you don't want to is just don't do it. Don't try to play with silly replacement words, just make the anger real, the tension real, and the emotion real and people won't even notice that the cuss words aren't there.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited June 07, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited June 07, 2004).]
It all seems to come down to your personal feelings about the matter. I wouldn't recommend forcing yourself into writing lines that contrast with your own values, as doing this can tend to make your work sound artificial. I'm sure there are exceptions to this, though I've talked to many writers (and read their work) who've had the same trouble I described. The issue appears to boil down to what you believe is acceptable and what is not. You can get away with quite a lot nowadays, though lines can still be crossed (inadvertently or otherwise). I try not to get too close to those boundaries.
Inkwell
------------------
"The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp."
-Anonymous
If I'm feeling witty, I'll say something like "He took the Lord's name and then commented on my mother's coital tendencies."
If I'm not, I'll say something like "You goddamn son of a whore!", figuring I could edit it in later versions, if needs be.
Whatever works, I guess.
CVG
I've also noticed that when a story has little or no profanity in it, when it IS used it is MUCH stronger. An example that comes to mind is 'A Seperate Peace'. That has one swear word in it, shortly after the main charecter betrays his best friend. It was such a powerful word in that story becuase it was only used once. So I'd say save the swear words until they are really needed.
Personally, in books I've read, made up swear words help to lighten a situation
quote:
Great jumping green jellyfish!
or show the intensity of a situation
quote:
Emperor's black bones! (Star Wars books use this one quite a bit)
Writing around it is good but if you think it fits, making up your own doesn't hurt.
I used to work with a guy that used four letter words in just about every part of his speech. After a while you hardly noticed he was swearing(haha). Everything was f***ing something or other. I might say, "it is really hot today." He would say "it's F***ing hot today", as his normal speech. It became cartoonish and laughable and soon most everybody was making fun of him.
I will say this, use them sparingly or they lose the intended force behind them. And use them in dialogue only, not in narration. I think it has more of an impact that way. If you aren't a swearing person, it is going to be really hard for you to write that way. Keep it to what feels natural for you and your character.
Scheisse (SHY-suh)--the favorite curse-word of german-speakers everywhere. It's the S-word, but it doesn't carry anywhere near as much weight as the English equivalent.
Verpiss dich (fair-PISS deekh)--literally, piss off. This is the strongest curse in the German language. Use sparingly.
bescheuert (beh-SHOY-ert)--retarded. This is a pretty strong word.
bekloppt (beh-KLOPT)--also retarded. Stronger language than bescheuert.
Enjoy.
(I don't know what this has to do with anything but"Once behind me in a line two kids from mexico were saying some pretty horrid stuff about me in spanish. I only caught half of it but I turned around and said "I know what you just said." Their eyes got wide and blushed a little.
The thing is, that language isn't strong enough to shock me. Nothing "hard" in it. *shrug*
Like any unusual word you use, you have to have a reason for using it. To pepper dialogue with R-rated swearing is not the least bit artistic, but a properly placed "f**k off" can send an emotional charge through the reader.
I don't subscribe to Stephen King's rule of profanity: that's how people talk, so that's how they'll talk in my novel. People also use a lot of bad grammar when they talk, as well as mispronouncing words, and they use a lot of "umm" and "ahs" and "wells" and so forth as they talk, and we don't put all that nonsense in our dialogue. We don't include any of that in our dialogue--unless it's necessary--and I for one don't see any reason to pepper one's dialogue with superfluous swearing.
Most of the time, my POV describes the swearing just the way I would if I encountered it in real life.
quote:
He used a short word to describe himself.
Yeah, I'm of the opinon that swearing is a reflection on the speaker more than anything else.
Also, contrary to popular belief, (I know you didn't say this, but a lot of people think it) "Schweinhund" is not swearing like a tough guy in German. It's talking like a Kindergartener.
Scheisse, though, that's a classic. They love that particular swear word. When cussing is needed, always Scheisse, never Mist.
Esel: I think what you're going for is Arsch. Both translate into ass in English, but Esel is an animal and not a cussword, while Arsch is a bodypart and definitely a cussword. Popular contexts: Arschloch (Loch=hole), die Arschkarte (lit. "the asscard")--when you have bad luck, you pull the Arschkarte, (Ich kriegte die Arschkarte), to tell someone off, say, "Leck mich am Arsch!" (Lecken=to lick).
As far as the archaic stuff goes, I can't help you out. I know a little bit of the grammar and a couple words, but no cusswords. I do know that the Archaic German word for defecation is Shit, though, but it's not a cussword, just the normal inoffensive word for it.
[This message has been edited by wetwilly (edited June 08, 2004).]
Ummm...
*looks around again*
Ummm... For my latest work, I have to have a phoentically spelled German swearwords. Yep. Now how do you pronounce them?
(Alright, alright! I've always had a dream of being able to swear in German. We all have goals and hopes, right? 
)
Some rules of thumb:
words with ie/ei - pronounce the second letter, always
words with ch - not a hard sound like in "chair", push the sound towards the top of your mouth and back of your throat.
Ok, so I guess someone better at phonetics and German should continue this...
Try here:
http://www.ex.ac.uk/german/abinitio/pronounce/
[This message has been edited by Lorien (edited June 09, 2004).]
Phanto: Scheisse=SHY-suh, Arsch=ARSH, Arschloch=this one is hard, because we don't have the German "ch" in English, and the "o" sound used here is also a little bit different than English. You can get it close enough by making the same "o" sound as the "o" in "hole". For the "ch" think "kh," and something along the lines of a hissing cat, and you'll get close enough. So, ARSH-lokh.
die Arschkarte=dee ARSH-car-tuh.
Lech mich am Arsh!=lek mikh ahm arsh.
Any other words you want, let me know, I speak it fluently.
(Sorry, again, for barging in without a productive reason.)
Inkwell
------------------
"The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp."
-Anonymous
But I temper it--I hate people who use the f word to qualify everything, and i don't like to read books that use god to damn things either. Though a character in one book does say it--once. (and he meant it)
I think you have to consider very carefully what words you use and when--to the best effect, not just for over shock value that loses it value the more you use the word. (Sheesh, did that make sense?)
I went to a writers workshop where the guy gave a lecture on cuss words--right in the middle of it he yells the F word. Everyone took notice. His point--impact. Once it has impact, fifty times it is just an annoying word.
I read Sue Grafton's alphabet mysteries--she's written 17 now. At one point around book 14 I think, she switched agents and publisher--all of sudden the main character swore--I didn't like the change. At first it was only once in the book and I thought--Kinsey wouldn't do that. Then in the other books Kinsey continued to swear.
I also noted that her books were no longer vying for space on the best seller list with Hillerman.
Random thoughts courtesy of a long long day.
Shawn
I don't know if this will help or not, but let me tell you how I approached the matter with my own children.
My stance was (and is) that there are no "bad" words, but there are "bad usages" of words. And one "bad usage" is using almost any swear word. Why? Because it offends some people. Being offensive is rude, and rudeness is a form of immorality. Or, to put it another way, words are just sounds, and there's nothing wrong with sounds--but sounds convey meanings, and not all sounds convey the same meanings to all people.
What I wanted to do was to raise children who were not, themselves, offended by these words, but who understood that other people were, and therefore would attempt not to develop the habit of using them.
For me, this made it easier to use a limited amount of swearing (and/or vulgarity; I'm grouping those things together here for convenience) in my writing. I mean, if I can have someone murder someone in a story, surely I can have them say a bad word. That doesn't mean I condone it's use. If I, personally, don't use such language, that sends a far stronger message than that the characters in my stories don't.
But it also means that I won't have gratuitous swearing. If I have a character say "Damn!", it's because anything else would sound silly, and nothing at all would sound flat or unrealistic. I have never found it necessary to use either f*** or sh**. If the necessity arises to use one, however, I'll use it. I also have no problem saying these words in front of my children--but only if I'm talking about the word rather than, say, using it in anger. I don't even mind reading stories that contain these words--it gives me a chance to remind them that this is not how they should speak. However, if I were reading a book that went way overboard on such usages, I'd just edit all or most of them out--with no loss to the story, which pretty much proves that they shouldn't have been there in the first place.
In SF and Fantasy writing, we also have the luxery that our worlds are entirely made up, and with them, the meaning of languages. Robert Jordan uses "Blood and ashes" often in Wheel of Time (though usually only with one or two characters), and when it's really vulgar, "blood and bloody ashes. Granted, "bloody" is considered quite vulgar in the UK, but not to the American reader. He also uses "Light!" quite often, as a sort of dodge from using God's name in vain.
Think about your world. What phrase could be constrewed in some way to be vulgar? What if it's a society that lives entirely on ships, rarely setting foot on dry land. They could curse someone out by calling them "land-born" or something similar. In Harry Potter, calling somebody a mudblood is very insulting, though perhaps not vulgar in the same way.
I think if you are truely uncomfortable writing with swear words, I would wonder why you are writing characters that seem to need them. If you want a way around it, then examples have been given. Some authors come up with their own terms - some work, some don't. I know I've mentioned "tanj" as an example that did not work. I think Anne McCaffrey did a great job using 'shards' and 'shells' in her Dragonriders of Pern books - they make sense because we know about dragon eggs, and they start with 'sh' like another word...
For example, I've just begun reading the African Safari Papers by Robert Sedlack, and the main character swears alot, ALOT - think 1 to 2 times a sentence. He is quite a vulgar character to begin with, but the swearing makes me respect or even have simpathy for him even less.
The goal is not to be realistic.
What? But we are trying to explore some truth about our world.
Fine, but in my opinion, always being realistic is not the way to do that. Truth is one of those highly subjective things that has lttle to no basis in reality in and of itself. I just finished reading a book in which one of the characters suggested that she could weave a tapestry that would cause all in its presence to speak the truth. Setting aide any issues with the magic you might have, I found it amusing. What truth? Whose truth? The truth of an impartial observer, because no one even knows that truth to speak it.
Anyway, enough about truth, back to reality. I recently wrote a short story in which I began by showing a scene that actually happened to me. The first 1000 words or so were, in fact, autobiographical except I changed the names of the characters and told it in third person. Nevertheless, someone suggested that the section lacked credibility.
I learned something from the coment. The reality we experience and the perceived reality we experience through reading are two different things. Really, only the former is experienced, the second is evoked. Writers have the true challenge of evoking emotions and perceptions of reality from their readers, and this is not always done through explicit reality.
Let me draw this back around to the case of cussing. If you want to show what life is really like for a street gang, you need to consider your angle. Do you want people to sympathize with these people, do understand how they got into their position and why they feel they cannot escape? If you do, then having your characters cuss every second word, while decidedcly realistic, will fail to convey the reality of the situation. On an emotional level, far deeper than the intellect with which we often which we could rely, cussing turns intended heroes into bad guys. In fact, you may never get your message across because no one except the proverbial choir will ever read it.
In this same situation, if you fail to use cuss words at all or if you use them sparingly, it will allow the reader to break through the haze that had dimmed their view of this particular walk of life. It will allow the reader to see past the stereotypes and the badness they perceive so that they can look into the heart of a gangster and see the humanity that lies within. Ironically, this truth is only accessible through a little white lie.
I was in the Army, and I don't use the F-word (I do use "crap" pretty liberally). Not everyone in the Army uses a lot of profanity. I actually grew up in a household where profanity wasn't shocking unless you used it to sincerely express something genuinely blasphemous (in verse, if you were really serious).
No, I didn't grow up in Hell, there are more things between Heaven and Earth yadda yadda.
And I am not talking about saturating a book with the f word or the s word--the f word appears once in 120,000 words. The s word 3 times.
There is a difference between cussing and swearing.
Cussing is using vulgar language--F*** or SH** and so on
Swearing is using the Lord's name in vain.
I cuss. Sorry, but I do. People around me say Oh golly gee, holy cow, or any other assortment of "cuss" words. They are the same thing. They are still a word used to express surprise or some such and I think sound silly.
There is a big difference between a character who says Holy F***! and one who says Holy Cow!
In writing we strive to make characters larger than life other wise all we'd read about is my daily walk to 7-eleven and back. Or other mundane things--lets face it most people don't go out and fight an alien everyday.
SO we also need to strive for the balance of language that creates the character's inner self. In a tense moment if the character is shot and he looks at his wound and says: Holy Cow I've been shot. We think and feel one way about him. If he sees that blood and starts hyperventilating and says Sh**, sh** over and over we feel another way about. If he says F*** just once then goes about stopping the blood flow--we have another picture of him. And yes we can just have him franticly try to stop the blood and say John cussed a blue streak while searching for his bandanna--that again creates a different feel to the scene and the character.
Can you write with no cussing or swearing--sure can. Can you tell a good story without it? Yup.
But the point I see is that you have to choose carefully. If you have a tough guy cop who is hot on the tail of a serial killer having him say flip as his f word choice will make him one way--where as f*** will have him seen another.
We have to make choices that characterize our characters in a way that the reader will believe. Not reality so much as not to mess with the suspension of disbelief.
Shawn
[This message has been edited by srhowen (edited June 11, 2004).]
What's amazing to me are all the seedy characters writers such as Dickens, Tolstoy, Hemingway, and Faulkner created, and how they were able to make them seedy without relying on the use of profantiy. Oh yeah, I know that was not acceptable back when they were writing; but they were able to work within that limitation and still create people you'd rather not spend a Saturday afternoon with. Dicken's Fagin (of Oliver Twist) and Faulkner's Joe Christmas (of Light in August) are two of the most morally repugnant characters in modern literature.
And I just need to mention, since somebody said his name, that I hate Hemingway.
I'm talking about people in the medical professions, and I think there's a connection there. I suspect that such forms of expression are a coping mechanism.
~L.L.
I had to laugh, because "buggered" means absolutely nothing in American English, but "damned" is a loaded term.
As I said, characterization is the key--I will not put a book down for one or two well placed cuss words--but a book full of it for the heck of it--forget it.
Shawn
quote:
Jack in "Lord of the Flies" is absolutely despicable, and there's no profanity in the book, and I never noticed either case being unrealistic when I read them.
You wouldn't expect the characters in Lord of the Flies to use profanity because of who they are -- upper class school children, essentially. That doesn't exclude downright evilness.
In Britain at least profanity is a class issue, although current media trends toward more profanity might be blurring that a little.
Going back a little more...
quote:
Granted, "bloody" is considered quite vulgar in the UK, but not to the American reader.
I don't think many people think it so vulgar any more. It's old fashioned, I think, and losing a lot of its power these days. That's not to say there aren't people who would find its use shocking, but then there are people who are shocked by anything
And Mary's story was funny!
These two do bring up a useful point, which is that probably the easiest way of distinguishing the speech between British and American characters is by their choice of profanities.
Your story made me laugh, Mary.
When actaully cursing does seem to fit, I tend to look to other cultures. Some Brit sland that would be very offensive in Britland is hardly meaningfull, but still recognizable in the U.S. For some reason, using curse words that are uncommon in the culture I am writing for seems effective, and at the same time, less profaine. Sure, this may eventually lead back into the same prolems if I ever get published in certain places, but during the early writing process, borrowing swear words works well for me.
And there is...
Apologies in advance for the below ranting:
I just read a story (no offense to the author) where cussing and swearing may have been appropriate for the circumstances and/or a given character. Yet the author, decided to substitute non-offensive words instead. And this really threw me and I believe detracted from the story a lot!
Now, my teen years were spent in SLC, Utah. We used "dang" and "gosh" and "flippin'" and a whole host of words to avoid actually saying anything deemed offensive or "bad." I like to think of it is a "religural" thing -- where religion impresses itself wholly on a local culture, where even those who aren't in that religion tend to follow along.
Still, I must say this: If it's appropriate for your characters to swear in your story, so be it, and put it in. Suck it up if you must. It's not you swearing. If you do substitute silly and less-offensive words, you're very likely ruining the effect your were trying to acheive, and worse: your story, probably.
Now, I know some of you would baulk at writing stories like that: stories that have excessive violence and cussing. That's perfectly fair and fine by me -- I like all sorts of stories from fairy tales to horror. Just please don't have an obviously vulgar and crude character say "Gosh!" or similar unless you're going for a comedic laugh. If they're a nasty piece of work all-around, then write it like it is.
Please. [edit] Naturally, your other option is to not write that kind of story. [/edit]
Final note: Of course, if your not an adult, then ignore all of this for now. Swearing is bad!
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 08, 2004).]
I will say, that if you can't pull off a string of cuss words with believeability, then maybe don't try. Or ask someone who does swear to tell how to do it. Most of the time, cuss words don't make any sense, especially in the terms in which they are used. But that is the irony of the whole situation; your character is usually mad or frustrated and is not making sense when they spout off. So a few vulgar words do make sense at that point. That sounds wierd, but that is how I see it.
I'm reminded of something a teacher once told our television studio class regarding sexiness:
"A woman will be infinitely more sexy when she's dressed (or scantily clad) than she ever could be completely nude. When she's dressed, there's the possibility of becoming undressed at some future moment. She's an enigma; she's hiding something. When she's naked, there's only the getting-dressed-again left."
I believe the same holds true for using vulgarity in stories. And, indeed, many other things in life.
Edit: I didn't miss the cussing. I felt the substitutions were a poor idea and detracted from the character's believability and the story as a whole. It is akin to using skim milk when double cream is required for your recipe.
The author has since cleared up the reason for doing so... they never swear.
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 08, 2004).]
I have my characters do things like:
"he muttered somthing under his breath"
"He cursed, then said, ..."
"She bit off an explitive"
"He wasn't sure what the other guy said, but was sure it wasn't nice."
Sometimes I have a bell ring in the middle of someome's line. Or I have another character interupt the speaker before the swearing takes place.
Anyone who reads the stuff knows what is being said, so I don't need to actually say it.
If you use too much cussing, I think it means you need to learn more adjectives and adverbs.
[This message has been edited by mikemunsil (edited August 08, 2004).]
Why should fiction limit itself? Censorship, even self-censure, should not be acceptable in any ways. If your style does not involve cuss words, that's fine. But if your style does include them, because you feel it is necessary to add realism, then there is no need to try and clean up your writing. Omitting the "F" word isn't going to make you less publishable (Stephen King is a prime example) and deliberately going back to erase those words is only going to make your writing less "you".
Once again, if your style does not include such words naturally, I do not advocate you go back and add them to make it more real. But if your natural writing style does included them, you do not need to go back and erase them.
"Bleeping" out language is for network TV, not for me, and not for hundreds of authors. All I can say is be true to yourself, not a a perceived ideal.
First of all, using cuss words does make you less publishable, not that I think you should necessarily write for other people, but in the end I do want to get published so it is a consideration. Stephen King can do whatever he wants, he's no one for a new writer to say, "Well, Stephen King does it so it must be ok." There is more leeway for known, popular, published writers who are garunteed to bring you in millions of dollars worth of business. For little ole me, who has yet to show that I can sell books, it is much more difficult. If you read the guidelines on many publication sites, they ask you to keep profanity to a dminimum.
As for the reality angle of things...IMHO, writing fiction is not about writing reality, it is about writing truth. (What did she just say?) Let me explain. When you write fiction, you want people to believe it, to be there, in the moment, loving your story and accepting your theme. You want them to come away from your fictional scenario with a sense thatre was some small seed of truth in it. Reality? I don't know about you, but I write about magic and aliens. Whether or not they cuss in real life is entirely up to me. But let's go a step further...
Let's say you were writiing a mainstream fiction novel set in modern times. As you have correctly pointed out, in real life everyone cusses. )Well, nearly.) Last weekend I even found otu that my very religious friend who I've known for 8 years and had never heard utter a cuss word, actually cusses sometimes. (Long story...not too important or interesting, but there's the point. EVERYONE CUSSES.)
Fine. What does that have to dow ith writing fiction? Dialogue, in particular, while not meant to sound unreal, is fashioned in fiction differently from the way a conversation would go in real life. How often do you have your characters forget words, stutter, stumble, say the wrong thing, spend too much time skirting the issue,....Most of these things happen only when they are relevent to the plot, and if they are not relevent to the plot you just don't do them. But people do in real life, so why don't we put those parts of dialogue in there?
The answer...fiction is not about showing reality it is about showing truth.
In reality, people cuss. In truth, we don't like it when people cuss (most of us) because we were raised to believe that this foul language is a bad thing. A character who cusses will not be very sympathetic, especially if he does it indiscrimently. Now, if you don't want sympathy for your character, make them a potty mouth, but this isn't eevn something a reader like me can intellectualize. I se a cuss word and my gut reaction is "bad wrong bad." One or two, in reaction to some rational stimuli or in an intense scene and I'll hardly notice. Cussing on every page...I'll put the book down before too long.
So, at least in my opinion, reality has very little to do with anything. This is why an excellent writer can make you think that cussing happened when it didn't and a bad writer has to use cuss words because if he didn't you'd notice and miss them. There are many ways to avoid the cuss words, not the least of which is to simply not put them in there. The ocassional "he cursed" is ok but use that too often and I'll notic what you're doing for certain.
It's clear that opinions will vary about using cusses or not to use them. Either choice doesn't make you a good or bad writer, depsite the previous suggestions to the contrary.
In effect, you, the writer, must choose the appropriate dialogue for your characters and for the market you're writing for. Obviously, a children's story wouldn't fare well with a slew of obscenities.
Again, I'd like to make my point just a bit clearer: Do NOT substitute less offensive words for the real thing. You can rewrite your dialogue, cleverly allude to cursing and make other inferences, or use the real thing. Your decision. Inserting a "Gosh!" when a "Damn" (or other) is more appropriate is going to make me think you're a terrible author.
Consider that.
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 09, 2004).]
quote:
This is why an excellent writer can make you think that cussing happened when it didn't and a bad writer has to use cuss words because if he didn't you'd notice and miss them.
If I've misunderstood it, I apologize. Fair enough, I suppose, since you've misunderstood a good many of my posts before.
Complete and TOTAL misunderstanding!!
Let me rephrase and put the emphasis where it belongs.
A bad writer HAS to use cuss words.
The intended counter-thought that was supposed to go through your head was that a good writer can choose to use cuss words but not HAVE to use them as a crutch.
Is that better?
Look, to illustrate my point further: let's just say we're writing a modern-day prison scene. And let's substitute in some less offensive words phrases:
Frank shuddered uncontrollably. His cellmate, Bubba the Breaker, was bigger than a house.
"Come over here, boy" Bubba said. "I want to caress you all night long. I'm gonna to make you my lover."
"Like heck you will, you big, stinking, gorilla!" Frank pressed himself against the bars. "Guards! Help me!"
***
So: Who would have wrote that scene just like that? I could've been coarser about it... but I'm short on time and have to catch a train in 10 mins.
If you raised your hand to say you would, stop writing now. 
If I wrote a book in contemporary times, I might have to use bad language.
I write speculative fiction. In any of those writings cussing would not be the same as we Westerners do.
I probably go weeks at a time without encountering the F word. Seriously.
To a great extent this depends on where you live and work, and what you choose for your entertainment.
Point is t hat perhaps before we make assumptions about what everyone does and what absoltuely makes something realistic, we should stop and think and perhaps even do some research. (Oh no, I said the R word!!)
My clean language is another person's filth.
I'm mostly certain that Amazon.com sells it. You might even find it in a US book store.
What you said shows us another point.
Different cultures, societies, and countries swear and cuss in different ways. I've been in 13 other countries and what we consider cussing, they don't necessarily.
The best reason for not using cuss words in speculative fiction is that speculative fiction is generally concerned with different societies than ours.
Is American bad language really normal for space three hundred years from now? Or for a magical kingdom in the distant past? Or another world?
Likewise, many other fully proper terms and phrases cannot be used in speculative fiction.
In fact, why are F and S and all those body funtion words cuss words at all? Because for some reason, moral, religious or otherwise, they've come to take on negative connotations. But since I am not trying to write a thesis on swearing in our culture, or other cultures, I'll just go back to my point. In the end it comes down to a matter of style, of worldview, of personal preference. In the end, that choice, as any other choice, is completely personal.
And by the way early Stephen King's works, before he was so famous that you only needed to stamp his name on the cover to make a bestseller, are just as replete with cuss words. The presence or abscence of cuss words is unlikely to sink a book that's written well (or to save one that's written badly), except of course if you are writing for younger audiences, certainly.
In the prison example that HSO provided I could rewrite it to say:
quote:
"Not a chance, you big, stinking, gorilla!" Frank pressed himself against the bars. "Guards! Help me!"
I think the best point that has been made has been that bad language is different depending on what cultures we're in. Thinking about what constitutes unclean behaivor in a speculative culture will probably give great insight into how they would curse.
Now, he is not one to swear (nor am I), so in that sense, the avoidance was normal. But the way he said it, slowly, calmly, it was very natural. It was such a serious situation that it didn't need an explosive explative. Crud was enough. Though, thinking back now, it was almost a humorous response.
There are almost always other ways to say the same thing. I totally agree with Christine on this one. It has great potential to hurt your writing, minimal chance of helping it. The only place it could work is in contemporary fiction, and even then, I think it should be in extreme moderation. If you used vulgarities in that prison scene above, I probably wouldn't even notice as I read through, but if they appear on every page, I will most certainly put the book down without a second thought.
My wife, I fear, may have missed her calling to be a sailor: her penchant for colorful phrases is amazing, and I've learned many new cusses from her since we've married. This is surprising, because I was in the Marines for four years -- I thought I'd heard them all. I was dead wrong in that assumption.
Still, one of my favorite movie scenes of all time is from A Christmas Story, when Ralphie lets loose the F-word while helping his dad change the tire. Instead of actually having him say the word (which would have been inappropriate for that movie) they did something far funnier: they made it unintelligble (or did he say, "fudge". Indeed, the father, when he's in the basement is letting out a slew of profanities and none of them are intelligible. Brilliant stuff.
So, yeah, it simply depends on what you're trying to achieve. The last story I finished (the spider one for the challenge) and the one I'm working on now are both clean and obscentiy-free. However, I allude to the S-word by having another character cut them off before it's said. It's done for comedic effect, but also because I feel it's inappopriate for these stories. Only when I'm dealing with a particular nasty piece of work do I include cussing in my stories -- and only then when I think it's necessary.
Probably since language was invented, there have been vulgarities. There has always been words that "educated" people would never use in polite conversation. It's funny to me, and I've done much research on the matter (due to another message board forum where all offensive words must be censored out or you get moderated and lose board privileges).
To the best of my knowledge (and I could easily be wrong), the only thing the bible makes mention of is not using the Lord's name in vain. I've also read the Book of Mormon -- 17 years ago when I lived in SLC -- and I don't recall a single passage which mentions profanities. So, I don't see how swearing is going to affect anyone's chances of making it to heaven -- but who knows?
As an aside, and not to be blasphemous, but Jesus was a carpenter, right? I wonder what he said when his hammer slipped and whacked his thumb -- if such a thing happened. Surely, at least the temptation was there... (kidding folks -- don't take this seriously)
A good many of our current swear words were deemed offensive by Puritans and other religious groups in England so long ago. Others were classified as offensive by the educated class (lords and such) and these 'dreadful' words were typically reserved for use by the serfs and peasants -- being far less educated.
The etymology of certain cusses can be traced back to Germanic and Nordic origin. No idea why, but my guess is that a good many Viking ships probably sank until they perfected their boats and the words they had weren't quite strong enough to express their displeasure. Or maybe it was just the very cold winters that brought out the worst words in their vocabulary. Who knows?
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 10, 2004).]
1. For those of you familiar with "Farscape", a television series that ran on the Sci-Fi channel in the US, they subsituted "Frell" in for the F-word (as well as substituting other curses for other new words they came up with). It was clear what they meant when used, and they explained it off by saying the translator microbes, for whatever reason, couldn't handle profanity. Absolutely brilliant way of dealing with profanity in a psuedo-network television program where actual swearing is not allowed.
Which brings me right to point number:
2. Any word can be a cuss word. It's not the word itself that is offensive. It is the context behind the word, i.e., how you meant it to be. So, a harmless word like 'fudge', for instance, can be used in a variety of ways (and is):
Fudge off!
I fudged it up.
Don't fudge with me; I'll break your fudging fingers!
Is there any difference between the actual F-word and Fudge when used like that?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Keep that in mind before you get all worried about curses; thinking they are bad and evil; that they are a sinful. In two words: They ain't. At least, not any more so than say: Cucumber. It's only a word... language. Not nice, definitely not polite, but still and always just a word.
Context and meaning, folks... not the word itself. I can string together completely harmless words to say things far more offensive than any curse word could ever come near to expressing. Consider that.
Besides, most words will not have any power of you unless... you let them. Of course, this doesn't take into consideration how editors and publishers feel about words.
That's my final twenty dollars on this subject and an end to my tirade, diatribe, rant and what have you.
Have a fudging nice day.
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 10, 2004).]
There's also lots of stuff about "filthy communication" and language defiling a man. I had a youth minister, years ago (I don't want to think about how many...), who said that meant the intention of the language, not the words themselves. He totally agreed with you that 'fudge', said in anger, was as bad as "****".
None of which has anything to do with whether one should avoid using cursing in story when looking at it simply as story (author's morals not withstanding). I agreed with Christines point about reality vs. fiction though I would have phrased it differently. I would have said "essence" rather than "truth". There are times in which curseing is the best way to capture a character's essences; where it is unavoidable and vital to the scene. There are also times, where it would be more natural, but naturalism is not always the best choice for fiction. It is a case by case basis.
As a person, I well into adulthood before I started cursing. (Ironically, it was not until I started touring elementary schools that the words began to come easily.) I wish I could go back to not using these words, not because they are 'bad' but because I feel like my own expression is less specific. That for me is the weakness of cursing in writing, the times when it takes the place of specificity.
I could say, "You're an ass!" to a number of people, but there are only specific people that I could say, "You're a empty-headed windbag, who doesn't have the brains it would take to crawl out of an open wet paperbag." All I'm saying is that, just as we look for ways to have active verbs ("He ambled", rather than "He walked"), cursing in fiction should work as hard for the writer's goals.
Funny memory: My tour partners and I had a set that provoked a lot of swearing in the attempt to put it up. We clearly couldn't say most of the things that we wanted to so instead, we took the company manager's name in vain. "Janet!" and "Reg!" were shouted in times of stress.
And finally, I'll close with my favorite Shakespeare curse. Ahem. (And this is from memory) King Lear, Act II scene 2 (Folio text. I prefer this one to the Quarto. Geez.... I am a theater geek) Kent to Oswald.
quote:
A knave, a rascal, an eater of broken meats, a base, proud, shallow, beggarly, three-suited hundred-pound filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking, whoreson, glass-gazing super-servicable finical rougue; one-trunk inheriting slave; one that wouldst be a bawd in the way of good service, and art nothing but the composition of a knave, beggar, coward, pander, and the son and heir of a mongrel bitch, one whom I will beat into clamorous whining if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition.
[This message has been edited by MaryRobinette (edited August 10, 2004).]
As far as defining bad language is concerned, that's another matter. Here's a story about my brother-in-law. Names have been changed to protect the innocent/guilty.
WARNING! THIS STORY CONTAINS THE F WORD!
So he was a mormon missionary serving in Southern California, right? Phil (the brother-in-law in question) has a reputation for having a pretty dirty mouth without ever cussing. He uses replacement words. One of his favorite words is "fetch." "Get the fetch out of here!" "What the fetch do you think you're doing?" And so on. One of his companions was bothered by his "profanity," didn't think it was within the spirit of their calling, so he told their mission president about it.
Not long after that, Phil sits down to an interview with his mission president. President raises the issue of Phil's language and tells him it bothers his companion.
"You know, Elder Thompson (a.k.a. Phil), it's really the same as cussing. There's no difference."
Phil looks his mission president in the eye and says, "F*ck that."
Mission president freezes for a minute, then thaws. "Okay, Elder Walter. Keep saying fetch," he says.
So, HSO, is there any difference between the actual F-word and and Fudge when used like that? In my less-than-humble opinion, yes.
[This message has been edited by wetwilly (edited August 10, 2004).]
I actually laughed at HSO's 'fudge' examples. I wouldn't have laughed if he had used the f-word.
One of the things that makes a swear word a swear word is it's meaning. Fudge has no vulgar meaning or (as MaryRobinette inferred) no sacred oath meaning to it. F*** and Sh** both are vulgar representations related to physical properties of the human body. There are many other words like them that may not always have been vulgar, but are now. 'Nigger' is an example. 'Faggot' another (though perhaps a poor one). Both f*** and sh*** have synonyms that are much more polite to use.
Hell and Damn, on the other hand, are swear words because they are historically considered curses (as in to bring doom upon, rather than to use a nasty word)--using them constitutes usurping the power of God to have sole decidorship over whether a mortal man will be damned or not. To get a better picture, saying "Go to Hell!" or "Damn you!" was a man's way of attempting to usurp that authority or at least to make unrighteous judgements about an enemy's post-mortal fate that are not his to make. It goes along, to some degree, with what Mary was saying about oaths. Men are warned in the Bible to avoid swearing (meaning promising) oaths, because in God's eyes an oath is BINDING! One did not, in those days, make such promises lightly. An oath meant dying to keep that promise. Receiving an oath from another meant that you could trust completely that the oath would be kept.
For example, in the Book of Mormon, Captain Moroni gives his enemies two choices--make an oath of peace or fight to the death. He does so in an effort to preserve the peace of his people. They fight and fight until finally the enemy relents and makes the oath. Moroni, with no fear of reprisal, simply lets them go. Both sides understood well the eternally binding nature of oaths. Too bad we don't still understand it so well.
A promise well-kept is a rare treasure indeed these days.
So is this relevant to the topic under discussion? I suppose it depends on what you, as the author considering the question, believe. While I sometimes am guilty of letting these harsh invectives slip into my spoken vocabulary, I try to avoid using them in my writing, and would never consider writing a story or within a genre that would require it. Let alone reading a story with the f-word plastered on every page like feces smeared wallpaper. No matter how appropriate to the subject matter it is.
I guess that's why I write spec/fic.
Interesting about your bro-in-law using 'fetch,' wetwilly. MY bro LEARNED 'fetch' as a swearing substitute on his mission in New Zealand 30 years ago.
). What bothers one person may not bother someone else. Even who is saying it makes a difference.Two black guys can call each other nigga, but coming from someone of a different colour it is an odious term.
Personally, I find blaspheme far more offensive than swears like f*** and Sh**; part of that is how I was raised, but it is also because of what I believe.
One of the ten commandments is Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain.
Cursing in writing is more perilous than cursing verbally for the same reasons that comunicating via email is more easily misunderstood than face-to-face conversation; the subtext, much of the context and non-verbal communication are missing. No?
If not, then why the ?
So while the reader understands that the character is swearing, it doesn't have an offensive feel to it, as it might if contemporary English/American swear words were used.
That's not so far different from HSO's substitution of "fudge".
***
quote:
In the prison example that HSO provided I could rewrite it to say:quote:"Not a chance, you big, stinking, gorilla!" Frank pressed himself against the bars. "Guards! Help me!"
Ah... I think you may be underestimating the effect of imminent rape on the male psyche. My father was a correctional officer at a state prison farm, and also at a city jail, and believe me, the dominant prisoners don't say "Come here and be my lover, sweetie". They TAKE what they want, especially in a facility that houses violent criminals.
And the guards don't usually interfere. They just pretend they don't see/hear anything. Why risk their necks to help scum against scum?
***
quote:
As an aside, and not to be blasphemous, but Jesus was a carpenter, right? I wonder what he said when his hammer slipped and whacked his thumb -- if such a thing happened.
Ummm.. ouch?
Susan
quote:
Instead she chose to create her own vocabulary of swear words based on the culture of her books.
This, in my mind, is very different from substituting "fudge" for "fu**". In the fudge case, we are taking a meaningless word that sounds similarly and using it instead of saying the offensive word. On Pern, Anne McAffery is making a reasonable guess at how language might change. The words that she uses have meaning within their cultural context which makes them offensive to the characters which live on that world. That is part of good world-building.
Firstly, it is mankind who determines which words are vulgar -- not God. Nowhere will you find a list of words that God doesn't approve of--and if you have one, I'd love a copy of it (thank you). Especially vulgarities in English would there not be such a list to refer to.
Why, you ask? Because, English wasn't even a language when the bible was written or the Book of Mormon. Thusly, that argument is bunk. Filthy speech most likely refers to things like abhorrent and abnormal sexual things -- discussing them openly, perhaps. Babylon, etc. All subject to personal interpretation, of course. Think what you will...
Now, mayhap a prophet or two who has spoken with heavenly beings and has created such a list for the English speaking world, but I find that highly doubtful. Why bother? Surely there are much better things to discuss than semantics w/ beings from God's kingdom. Surely there must be.
Personally, if an angel came to me and said make this list, I'd laugh and say, "You're joking, right? Puh-leeze. Go back and tell whoever sent you to stop wasting my time. I've got my fellow man to look out for; souls to save; gospel to spread -- words are not my priortity at this moment. How about something like a revelation or two? That would be nice -- like, I dunno, when is the second coming going to happen? Give me something I can work with."
No, the truth is, language and the words we find offensive are left solely for man to decide. With one exception, and that's using the Lord's name in vain, of course.
EDIT: by the way, if any of you think I'm being blasphemous, I'm not. I'm only using humor to illustrate a point. And if you don't think God has a sense of humor, well you're just wrong: He buried all of those dinosaur bones, right? [Thanks, Bill Hicks.]
Second EDIT: God, being omnipotent, transcends man's necessity for language. We need it -- he doesn't. That isn't to say he doesn't care what we say... I just cannot believe an omnipotent being would give a flying leap about swearing. Overseeing an entire universe is probably keeping him quite busy.
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 11, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 11, 2004).]
What is relevant is what your target audience believes about swearing. Maybe they believe it's against the laws of God, or maybe they just think it's crude and impolite. On the other hand, maybe they believe swearing makes fiction more realistic or more subversive or more cool.
Unless you're writing just for yourself, you need to write for your audience. But unless your audience expects profanity, it's smart to keep it to a bare minimum, if you use it at all.
Why? Because there are some readers who are turned off by profanity, and if your fiction includes too much of it they'll put it down and never read any more of your writing, even if they thought it was otherwise good. But the converse reaction -- someone who thinks your writing is good, but they stop reading because of a lack of profanity -- almost never happens.
Do the math.
Nay. The connotative meanings of the words would have been the same no matter what the language. The Bible in it's earliest Hebrew and Greek forms has words for Hell and Damn with the same warnings against damning someone to hell in those languages. It never, I would agree, labels those words as profane words. But they have become such through the evolution of language because of the warnings against condemning others. And while we don't know the Reformed Egyptian words for 'oath' we can still say that swearing an oath in those days had some powerful meaning that we ignore these days.
I NEVER meant my post to be Bible-thumping. I was simply trying to point out the origins of Hell and Damn as cuss words, as well as the origins of referring to such words as Curses and Swear words. Believe in God or no, the people who wrote the Bible DID believe in God, DID follow his laws, DID believe it a sin to damn someone to hell, DID believe that God bound a man by the oaths he makes.
Now, HSO, I'm wondering...
You've been a bit harsher this past week or so--on all your posts. I'm worried about you. I'm wondering what's going on that's prompting you to become so prickly and defensive and angry. If I did anything to offend you, I'm sorry. I tend to be the kind of person who's tongue slips offensively without really noticing, because offenses from others often slip so easily off my back. Have I forgotten to thank you for a critique? Thank you. A million times, thank you. Thanks to all of you.
But, hey dude. Lighten up!
It's an undeniable fact in 3 galaxies, actually. I've an award or two here... 'spose I could scan them in.
Thusly, not prickly. Simply arrogant. Slight difference, I'd think. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I put to all of you that I'm am in no way attacking your faiths -- rather, I am challenging your faith's intepretation of its own faith. (Indeed, I'm well versed in most Christian religions, save for the actual content of the bible, since it's been quite awhile since I've peeked at one -- except for a brief foray into Revelations two months ago) For: Why else would there be so many different sects of one simple religion? They [Christians] all believe in the same God, yet their interpretation of that very same God is completely different. I put to all of you to consider that maybe, just maybe, we're all wrong in our assumptions (yes, I mean assumptions), because it is in fact Man who has determined for man-self what is arguably offensive and what isn't, and what possibly God meant by whatever God has said to man. This cannot be defended against except by the miracle of faith. Either you choose to believe or you don't. It is, after all, a tenet of Christianity to have the freedom of choice, is it not?
Consider this: Let's agree that God knows all things past and future. Yet, he's given man the gift of Freedom of Choice. It can be said, then, there's a probability--however slight it might be--that God could not have forseen a particular word being used in any language. Therefore, one could logically assume from this simple probability that the word "start" could have at one point been deemed offensive by the English speaking world. Freedom of Choice allows me to bravely make that assumption.
For if we did not have Freedom of Choice, then what would be the point? No? And therefore, when I say your arguments about language and God saying such and such is bad and evil are bunk, I am, undeniably, and unequivocally absolutely correct.
But the devil, if I may be so bold, is clever, and right now is telling you to believe me -- is he not? He's taking advantage of your free will right this second. He's saying to you: "You know, he's got a point, there. Seriously."
Ha!
Confused? Don't be. At least LDS put a disclaimer in there testimonials: "so long as the Bible is translated correctly." I believe this is a wise move -- and quite possibly the only sensible move in this situation. How many versions of the bible are there? 20? 30? 50? At least, I'd say. Statistically, the chance for error is right about 100%, maybe higher -- given that man himself has probably distorted and twisted the words (and mistranslated a dozen times over) for its own benefit. Don't believe me? It's a proven fact.
Of course, this is far better than alternative: Scientology. Bah. Stay well clear of that. Lost a really good rock band to that religion. Bah! At least Chrisitanity is generally noble and cares about its fellow man -- wishing to save souls and wishing for all of us to be with God. I dig that much. What I don't dig about Scientology is that I'm inherently screwed up because bad things happened to me as a child or while I was a fetus in my mother's womb. That's nuts. Simply, spending 10 grand a year holding an expensive digital multimeter, that would be better suited for checking electrical current in one's house, is stupid.
Now, I've stated a few times, Eric, that I am not saying that using cuss words in your writing is the best way to go about it. In fact, I actually agree (I said agree... look there it is in writing) that it can be highly detrimental to your possible career. If you've missed that post, just go back and few and I'm sure you'll see it... if you'd care to check.
Dakota, you've not offended me in anyway. Please rest assured in that fact. Big smiley, dear.
Apologize for any grammar/spelling errors...
(By the way, if none of you have worked it out yet... I'm not really taking this as seriously as it may seem. This is being light -- and, of course, arrogant. Where's the harm in that? So, please, lighten up yourselves and enjoy the ride. It's only life, after all... life on a message board -- hardly worth noticing, right?)
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 11, 2004).]
My mistake; I thought your spirited defense of swearing was in the context of whether swearing was objectionable in writing.
Since it's not in the context of writing, though, I wonder why you feel it necessary to tell people in this writing forum that their religious beliefs concerning swearing are incorrect.
Kind sir, please take note of the above.
And everything is in the context of writing. Or am I missing something? Everything is relevant to writing. Again: Everything.
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 11, 2004).]
. I'm gwad you stiw wike me.
But I'm not going to comment any further. I feel like we're kinda revolving around the same argument (OK. 'Argument' is probably too strong a word that I've been lambasted for using before, but I'm gonna use it anyway)--like we're arguing against each other on the same side, ya know?
*X* There. How's that for a kiss?
quote:
Firstly, it is mankind who determines which words are vulgar -- not God.
quote:
No, the truth is, language and the words we find offensive are left solely for man to decide. With one exception, and that's using the Lord's name in vain, of course.
quote:
rather, I am challenging your faith's intepretation of its own faith.
quote:
And therefore, when I say your arguments about language and God saying such and such is bad and evil are bunk, I am, undeniably, and unequivocally absolutely correct.
----------------------------------------
quote:
And everything is in the context of writing. Or am I missing something? Everything is relevant to writing. Again: Everything.
You're missing something.
Yes, in a sense everything is related to writing, because we can write about everything.
That doesn't mean I should use a writers' board to talk about the prospects of BYU's football team this upcoming season and whether or not Coach Crowton has made the proper choice for starting quarterback -- unless it is in a context more directly related to writing than "everything is related to writing."
Eric, you -- like many other people do quite frequently -- are reading into something that isn't there. You see what you want to see, not what is being said. You can try to argue with me about what I said, pull quotes out, and so forth. You will still fail at realizing what I'm saying. The reason for this is clear, but I need not explain it, because you already know the reason.
Most importantly, you sir, have no idea, from anything I've written so far, what I actually believe and what I don't believe. Nor will you ever... at least, not on a message board. For all intent and practical purposes, I could easily be playing "devil's advocate." Or... I could mean everything I've written. The simple fact is, you'll never know. I still win.
However:
A challenge doesn't imply anything near telling someone to believe someone else. It's asking you to look into your faith. It should by all means strengthen it if anything. It's not something you even need to consider, is it? You could easily ignore it, but you can't. You certainly don't need to defend it. It is what you believe. Fine. Good for you. Shall we move on the important part of this lesson?
Oh, before I do, and I am right about this. In fact, I've had several conversations with many a bishop, priest, and reverend in my day. Funny thing, everyone of them agreed with me. Go talk to your bishop -- you'll see. It's not the words themselves, it's how you talk to people (lies or truth); how you treat them; and what's in your heart that matters more than anything else. Duh! Got it yet?
I'm not questioning your faith, Eric -- I'm question man's ability to understand faith. And how MAN distorts his faith for his own personal gain, and generally to blind himself to the truth, or to avoid what he cannot comprehend. There is a difference. When you're old enough (and that can be any age, by the way), when you've had enough life experience to begin to understand these questions, you'll figure it out. Trust me.
Again, so that I'm very, very clear on this: I'm not attacking your respective faiths, people. I'm attacking the ever imperfect mankind and its ability to grasp its very own faiths. You might think you know it... you very well may have the holy spirit in you and be righteous and all of the cotton candy that makes it all worthwhile. But you will never, ever, as a living breathing human fully understand it. Ever. The books you hold in your hands when you go to sacrament are guides. Holy, sure. Divine? Very possibly. Still just guides. Guides for you to learn from. Simple little thing, it is. Yet, I wonder: Has anyone really learnt anything from it? But I digress.
That sir, is my point. Thank you for joining today's lesson. As you can see, these past few examples [posts] have been given to you to stir up that grey matter a bit in your head, so that you may now write convincing and believable characters dealing with arguably the most important subject they'll ever tackle: Faith.
Every little thing is about writing after all, isn't it... And if you disagree with that, then well, you're not ready to write. That's what we do as writers. We tell stories. But we need to see the 'everything' to do so. We must observe. We must question everything. Why? What? Can it be? How? Am I right? Am I wrong? Who is right? What am I doing here on a message board learning how to write? These are the questions.
Of course, there is this other little thing: Survival v. Faith. But that's a lesson for another day.
Happy Writing... and um... get over it... I'm still right.
Why do I even bother?
Maybe someday I'll grow up to be as wise as HSO, and then I'll be ready to be a writer.
It's amazing how easy it is... Every time, there's always one. Really makes life worth living.
Shush.
Ya'll know ah'm right. 'Sides all that, ah don't think anyone here likes being called 'sir'. ('Cept Mr. Fisher of course, but ah think that's jest my special privelage.) For most other folks, them's fightin' words. [batting eyes emoticon]
HSO, I'm going to have to ask for my stick back. You've misused it and lost your privileges. I remind you, though, to wash it off first.
BACK on topic... My Hatrack Challenge offering has a character that I felt like needed to swear. I actually let him swear more than the finished story shows and then rewrote. In light of our current conversation, I'm wondering how you think my balance works?
It worked fine for me. The ONLY reason I noticed the "freaking" was because this thread had placed the topic right on top of my pre-frontal lobes. (If there were any other examples in there, I missed them anyway.)
Mr. Fisher
Okay... no more of this. I've been a bad troll and I must be punished. "Oh, bad, bad, bad, naughty 'HSO'. Here at Castle Anthrax there is but only one punishment..."
Secondly, you need to separate the art from the artist.
Just becasue your characters swear doesn't mean you do.
In the same way your bad guy goes around killing people, that doesn't mean you do, or even on a less drastic note. Just because your character has premaritial sex, doesn't mean it's something you believe in. People have sex before they're married.
It comes down to realism. Now, if you're writing about a church group, you might not have these problems, but if you're writing about a group of space marines, than guess what? More than likely they're gonna swear.
Just make sure you don't over do it, and you can ALWAYS avoid dropping the "F-bomb"
JOHN!
Let's see here...first of all "adult audience" is a very broad term. Just because I'm an adult, doesn't mean I swear or that I like to read baout characters who do. Knowing your audience goes way way way beyond knowing that they are over the age of 18, and I think this is the biggest problem with what you said. The question is, does your adult audience want your heroes to curse? Probalby not, because we don't identify cursing with beinga good thing most of the time.
Second, you are right about separating art from the artist.
On the other hand, I don't htink it does come down to realism at all. Fiction isn't abiout reality, especially in dialogue. I've said this before, but let me just hit some of the highlights. Writing fiction is about provoking the right emotional responses in the reader, not necessarily about presenting the most realistic situation. In fact, I've had instances when I presented almost verbatim "real" situations from my past in fiction as part of a short stories and readers have called in "unbelievable." Why? Because reality doesn't have anything to dow ith believability. What we are looking for in fiction is not reality, but a sense of truth. We want to suspend the reader's disbeleif.
In that vein, I don't think you ever have to cuss. I'm not saying cut it out entirely, so don't flog me for that. In fact, I just finished writing a chapter in my novel in which I thought two cuss words were entirely appropriate. Because those are the first (and may be the only) two cuss words I've used, they helped to punctuate an emotional scene and show just how the characters felt. It's about emotion. If you just have a foul-mouthed character because you think that's what a "real" person in that situation will be, any reader who is willing to read it (I'm not actually going to be one of them, despite being an "adult") will become numb to the words. The emotion simply won't be there because it's become a part of the conversation rather than a powerful emotion grabber.
Let's compare writing as an art to classic art. A photograph is a perfect (theoretically, although not if I'm taking the picture ) representation of the world. It is clear, exact, but not always beautiful, not always emotional. The imperfections from some of the famous painters like Picasso reveal truth and beauty in ways not able to be expressed with a photograph.
I am not saying use cuss words. I am not saying don't use cuss words. I am saying that as fiction writers, our job is not to capture the world in a perfect phorographic clarity. Theoretically, that's what newspaper journalists do (we can argue about how well they do that on some other thread). We help readers escape the mundane, the real, and to become one with our fictional characters. We create heroes people love and situations they take pleasure, sadness, and fear in. You take their hero and give him a potty mouth and all the beauty, all the fear, all the pleasure and joy that a reader might otherwise have felt are whisked away and only a very small portion of the "adult audience" will even finish the story at all.
I found your response well thought out and I agree with a lot of what you said.
When I said know your audience, I was thinking a little more obvious. You’re correct an adult audience does not automatically mean swear words abound. But if you’re writing a young adults book or for network TV, you obviously don’t want to use swear words in those cases.
I always debate on the side of using swear words if you feel they are necessary, as like I mentioned, this is something that I struggled with. I now swear like a sailor, but I used to be opposed to it, and so my characters didn’t swear.
I think this looks kinda silly in some cases, and as you mentioned swearing used at key moments can bring out the emotional aspect.
I recently co-wrote a story that had little swearing as it was a submission for a mainstream comic book. There was one swear word in the whole script of the first issue. The main character was a pastor, and he was talking to a teenage member of his congregation while working on the farm. The teenager blurts out, “Shit!” to something the pastor said, and the pastor gives him a rather hard look, and the boy apologizes. Though the next issue has yet to be written, it’s planned for the pastor to say G.D. (I swear even I don’t use) and it adds to the emotion of the story.
I’m a big character guy, as I’ve stated here MANY, MANY times. Character equals plot; plot does not equal character. Therefore, dialogue equals character and narrative equals plot. (sort of)
You can’t sell you characters short. We as the audience need to know them. If you’re character is otherwise heroic, but has a pension for using the F-word every other word WE need to know that, and form our own opinions of him. It would be REALLY interesting if you bad guy didn’t swear!! . It’s just like whether or not you character smokes. It’s a nasty habit sure, but it doesn’t make the person inherently bad, but just might make them a little harder to like.
I am telling this story to illustrate how differently people can react to the same stimuli (in this case, swearing and flipping the bird.)
I personally do not swear, or flip people the bird, or do any of the other vulgar things that seem to have permeated parts of our society. Mostly I consider this a blessing, but on at least one occasion it was a curse. (And I'm not Mormon, in case you are wondering, but I come from a long line of people who are all clean-spoken, and rely on wit rather than crudity to lambast people.)
When I was seventeen and rebellious, it had come to a point where my father threatened to kick me out of the house if I crossed the line one more time. I knew he meant it, and resolved to be good. I had some "friends" who wanted me to go see them, and they lived an hour away. My father forbade me to go (my sister had tattled on me that I spent a week making out with one of them the year before), but he said they could come over to our house. When they pulled up, I went over to the car. They immediately yanked me inside it and drove to their house an hour away. I tried to tell them how much trouble I would be in, but they didn't believe me. I asked them to let me out and they wouldn't. To try to express my frustration, I said "F*** you!" and flipped the driver off. To me that was huge. I had never done either of those things and even in the situation I was shocked at myself. But all they did was laugh and keep driving. (In case you want to know the ending, they kept me at their house and wouldn't let me call home overnight. My dad found out where we were and threatened to call the cops if they didn't bring me home. They said it was a practical joke and took me home. The next morning my dad gave me a choice: press charges of kidnapping or move out that day, because he didn't believe me that I hadn't wanted to go. Since I had known these people my whole life and they'd never behaved that way before, I didn't press charges. I was out of my parent's house that afternoon. But it actually ended up being one of the best things that ever happened to me, getting out on my own.)
Now I know that I am weird, but nonetheless, swearing was reserved for something hugely important. I really really meant it when I said it. If I use swearing in my novels, again, I will really really mean it. It will have impact to me.
But here's the thing: That is just me. Most people don't feel that way about it. My "friends" probably used bad language all the time, so when I cursed, they hardly noticed. If people like them are reading my novel, and come across the one or two swear words, they may not even notice, at least not to the extent that I do.
Even I am inured to hearing other people swear, especially in movies (none of my current friends swear either). However if my parents or friends read that novel, they would for sure notice. They would notice so much that I probably will find a way to write my novel without using the words, because my friends and family are more important to me than the nebulous "gentle readers." And the impact would only be so strong with them or other people like them anyway. For the majority of readers, the impact wouldn't be as great as I would be trying to make it. So my solution will be to write around it.
In case you haven't figured it out, I was the person HSO referred to who used "gosh" when my character wouldn't have. You know, I didn't even notice that I wrote that.
What I will do in future is to write around the language, using techniques already discussed in this thread. I actually meant to do that in the story, but I do not think about swearing, to the point where it hadn't even occurred to me that the bad guy would swear in that situation.
I hope that normal people reading my work will not go, "Gee, she should be cussing more. This is boring." But I KNOW that my friends and family will be able to read my stuff without being offended.
(As to subject matter, that's a whole different ball of wax. I personally enjoy horror, and Stephen King is one of my favorite authors. So I may choose to write the same type of stories that he does, just not with the amount of profanity.)
Hope this makes sense to people. I know I'm not changing anyone's mind, but I'm trying to communicate my particular take on this, as an alternate perspective.
Throughout history, most societies have not used swearing as much as Americans today. It's only been about sixty years that swearing has been as prevalant as it is now. It is possible to write about evil people without using profanity. Take Edgar Allen Poe or Charles Dickens; they wrote about some of the slimiest filth around. People can read what they wrote, without missing the profanity. Now I know that they were writing within the context of their society, but the point is that it can be done. I am going to look at it as a challenge: can I write without profanity and still have a visceral, true-to-character impact on my readers? I guess I'll find out, won't I?
[This message has been edited by autumnmuse (edited August 12, 2004).]
Swearing can be used sparingly for impact as others mention, and it can be used for characterization.
I hope no one would think a story was stupid becasue there were no bad words, but it does take away from the realism factor as pointed out in the cases above.
People are willing to write violence, or sex, but NOT swearing seems silly.
I just don't see it as a morality question. Characters are who they are...
JOHN!
So let's take the example of the marine.
Who is he?
He's probably a tough guy, a strong man, and hard-spoken. But if he is your hero, he is defined by more than his status as a Marine. Is he married? Maybe he has a wife and a little girl at home. Maybe he reads to the blind on his day off. Maybe he's a good friend who always watches hib uddies back. He's more than just a marine, whoever her is.
So let's take a scene in the mess hall. While he would not be likely to say, "Would you please pass the tea and crumpets?" What does it add to his characterization or realism to have him say, "Pass the ****ing potatoes?" Why doesn't he just say. "Pass the potatoes, will ya?"
I'm not a marine. Maybe in real life it's part of their culture to say, "Pass the ****ing potatoes." but I don't care. As a reader, I want my hero to be a basically good guy. I want the tough guy with a wife and daughter (basically, one who has a soft spot in just the right place.) If you make him cuss, he'll never be anything other than a marine. How's that real? How's that adding to his characterization if all I can ever think of him as is a rude jerk? I mean, if he's going to rescue his wife and he's toe to toe with a kidnapper and he says, "Sianara, Mother ****er." I won't just be ok with that, I'll get into it. But if he says, "Pass the ****ing potatoes." and "What the **** do you think you're doing?" (in reaction to soemthing not particularly important) and "I got ****ing latrine duty again today." and basically rattled on, using (especially) the F word every time a word comes out of his mouth then your characterization that you pride yourself in has failed, because he's just a jerk. He's not mey hero. It doesn't matter if he builds houses for habitat for humanity,visits his mom every Sunday at the old folks home, and reads to the blind, I still think he's a jerk. Is that unfair? You say, these people exist in real life, good guys who cuss and you know what? I end up judging them by their language too. It's human and I can't help it, but the vast majority of humans do it so why don't we just be honest?
Does your commitment to realistic dialogue extend to realistically including the following things people very often include in real-life dialogue (sometimes multiple times per sentence):
Um
Uh
Ah
Er
Like
You know
Although, if you've got a character who consistently uses a particular idiosyncracy, sometimes it's very funny to see it written out. For example:
The girl from the valley said, "Like, you know, this whole thing is, like, stupid, you know?"
Her best friend nodded in agreement then added: "Like yeah, I know." She paused and reflected a moment and scratched her head. Finally she gave up thinking about it and said, "Um...Sarah? What's stupid again? Like my brain is like not working."
</end 80's flashback>
***
So, yeah... if I had ocassion to do something like that, I would, but only for effect. And definitely not throughout a story...unless it was "like" two pages long or something.
Then again, since I'm reading DA's Hitchiker's Guides books at the moment (and enjoying every bit of it), I'm not bothered by his tendency to use a lot of "Er's" in his dialogue.
Everyone is right, though... we don't necessarily write true-to-life dialogue. We approximate it.
Eric, I think you have said in one sentence what I have apparently had trouble saying in paragraph after paragraph. That is a beautiful summary.
You still haven't thanked anyone(not just me) in your slipstream topic.
*sounds of crickets*