Hatrack River Writers Workshop: RE-writer's block and short story advice

This is topic RE-writer's block and short story advice in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :

Two things. I recently finished my first novel (first draft, anyway), and the LAST thing I want to do is go back to do rewrites. And there will be A LOT of them. The last time I counted it was over 300,000 words. The task seems garganutan because well before the book was finished I was already mulling over the numerous changes I had to make farther back. Is this normal? How do I get over it? Is there any benefit to rewriting in reverse? (meaning last chapter to first chapter)

Also, I'm just starting to get some sense and working on my short-story writing skills so I can hopefully sell something to someone so someday some publisher will buy a book from me. I would appreciate any and all advice, as well as recommendations for books on the subject.

Thanks Dakota

Posted by punahougirl84 (Member # 1731) on :

The most recent book I read on writing was Stephen King's "On Writing" and he suggests leaving your novel alone for at least 6 weeks. Don't give in to temptation to go over it - it needs to sit. When you do go back to it, you may find yourself editing out a lot, or breaking it down into multiple books - there have been posts about book lengths, and 300k sounds like 3 books! King has a formula given to him that says:

Revision = 1st Draft - 10%

He also recommends doing what you are doing - to work on another project, something very different from what you just finished. So a short story sounds like just the thing. Be wary that the prep for a short story can be as intensive as the one for a book (depending on how you prepare to write).

One way to prepare to write short stories is of course to read them! As for books, I'm reading "The Writer's Digest Handbook of Short Story Writing Volume II" and so far it has some good articles. It covers the topics you'll need, and some of the authors are sf authors (James Gunn, OSC, and Ansen Dibell). Kathleen has one or two she posts in response to this question - I forgot to write down the main one, so hope she responds to your question!

Good luck!

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

The book I recommend for help with short story writing is by Rust Hills: WRITING IN GENERAL AND THE SHORT STORY IN PARTICULAR.

As for rewriting, go ahead and do at least one rewrite backwards. It's a good way to see things you need to fix without getting caught up in the story again.

When you rewrite, it helps sometimes if you make a list of things you are going to check for (like -ly words, using more senses than just sight, checking for consistency, and so on). Go through the whole book checking on one thing at a time (if you run across something that needs fixing that isn't the particular thing you're working on in that pass, add it to the list and get it on a later pass).

Do the nit-picky things first, then in later passes go through to fix stylistic things and to see if what you can do to make the prose tighter.

If you do your rewrites one thing at at time, it may mean you'll have to do more rewrites, but that may make it a little less painful, and you'll see the story improve as you go.

Posted by AeroB1033 (Member # 1956) on :

Okay, not to offend anyone, but can we stop referring to On Writing so often? It amounts, basically, to a description of King's writing process, but he puts it in a very prescriptive way, things that are different for every writer. I only say this because I've seen it referred to so often as if it's some great work well, uh, on writing, and I have serious doubts about its actual quality (not out of disrespect for King, but because the things he talks about work well for him, but they're the sorts of things that are unique to each writer and each writer must develop on his or her own).

Anyway, now that I got that off of my chest... 300,000 words? Yikes. That's going to be a very tough sell to any publisher. 80-90,000 is ideal, but 300,000 is pretty massive.

It sounds to me like you have some serious problems (plot holes perhaps?) that you're trying to fix... So my question is, are they the sort of thing that will require massive, "domino effect" edits to fix? Because if so, you may need to literally start over and rewrite from the beginning. But given that I don't know what sort of things you're needing to revise...

Anyway. As for books, like I said before, I reject On Writing as a good book to teach. The reason is that King is a very persuasive writer, and it's easy to take his advice at face value, but when you step back and look at it objectively, he's really just telling you what his process is... and trying to write like King could cause you serious harm.

Instead, I recommend Orson Scott Card's Characters & Viewpoint. It's on a little more than just that, and he tells you how and why things affect the reader, with very little in the way of "this is the way I work, so this is the best way" kind of thing. He backs up all of his advice logically, and addresses many of the fundamentals of writing fiction. And best of all, he never resorts to sweeping statements like "edit out 15% of every novel", or "use as few adverbs as possible", or "wait 6 weeks before trying to rewrite".

Posted by Eljay (Member # 1941) on :

Definitely take a break before doing your revisions! You'll see your work much more clearly after.

How long? I don't know. I'm sure it varies based on the writer; I find it varies for me based on the project. It's not just length, either. In one case, I wrote a story one day, rewrote it the next, and mailed it the third. In another case, I let a short story rest (and got some feedback) over the course of about a week, and then rewrote.

When I'm done with the novel I'm writing, I'll probably take at least a week or two away from it, maybe more.

On another note, let me echo the concern about a 300,000 word novel! Selling something like that is likely to be a problem, from what I've read.

Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :

Thank you for the feedback. I know the thing sounds like a monster. And I guess the first thing I need to work on (but only after a break) is tightening the story. I really just wrote (and wrote and wrote and wrote), essentially leaving everything in that came into my head. I just hope I find it's as satisfying cutting it down as it was building it up.

Posted by Tracy (Member # 2015) on :

Ditto on the length of the novel, but I am sure you understand that by now.

Another book I would recommend is Orson Scott Cards How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy, if that's the genre of your novel or short story. Like other books of its kind, it boils down the basics into a short easy to understand and informative format. Although most of what he mentions is specifically for speculative fiction, the principals still hold true for other genres as well.

[This message has been edited by Tracy (edited May 07, 2004).]

Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :

I have some advice that I just thought up. (So I'm not sure how good it works, but it sounds good.) Everybody refers to a book on writing, (King's good it's hard to write about writing without using the words on and writing.) Well I say everybody write your own book on, I mean about, writing. It's all about how you do it, so analize yourself.
Wahoo, I've got my next project!

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

<Twilight Zone music> See the post I just made in the 'Aaaarrrgggghhhh!' thread. (Did I spell that right? Kind of like when the Charlie Brown character was writing a letter to her grandmother, I think, and asked her mother how many G's were in goggles? Two, came the reply, so she wrote, ggogles.

)

Posted by Jules (Member # 1658) on :

That's what happens when you're inexact. Everyone should realise that there are _three_ Gs in goggles.

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

Right. Gogggles.

Posted by Alias (Member # 1645) on :

quote:
Two things. I recently finished my first novel (first draft, anyway), and the LAST thing I want to do is go back to do rewrites. And there will be A LOT of them. The last time I counted it was over 300,000 words. The task seems garganutan because well before the book was finished I was already mulling over the numerous changes I had to make farther back. Is this normal? How do I get over it? Is there any benefit to rewriting in reverse? (meaning last chapter to first chapter)
Also, I'm just starting to get some sense and working on my short-story writing skills so I can hopefully sell something to someone so someday some publisher will buy a book from me. I would appreciate any and all advice, as well as recommendations for books on the subject.
Thanks Dakota

Dakota,

I empathize with you! I am near completing my novel, which despite a light prose with minimal detail passes the ideal 90k by about another 50k, still 300k is a lot, well, I'm at the public library and I'm being booted but I'll give you my advise later and maybe we can exchange,

Alias

Posted by RFLong (Member # 1923) on :

Hi Dakota

I can also empathize. My first draft of my novel panned out in the region of 380,000 - like you I just wrote down everything until the story was over. Then I went back and rewrote (and rewrote). It now stands at a slightly more managable 260,000 - still huge, but we're getting there.

One thing I will say for doing a first novel this way, it teaches you about tight writing and about only putting what is relevent to the story. My second is just under 100,000.

The best advice I think I was given was to finish the story before starting the re-writes. Its sounds simple enough, but when you're in the middle of something that big its easy to get lost with the details and caught in a loop of going back and changing things all the time. I make notes of changes needed while I'm writing and then continue as if I have already made them.

Then I go back and see what is actually relevent to the story, what's backgroup, what is pertenent to the characters (i.e. We might need to know that Bob is scared of dogs, but not that he hates pickles...)

I can't imagine writing from last chapter to first - probably not the way my mind works although I think I've heard some crime and thriller authors talking about doing that. I think you need to know where the story is ultimately going, but I'm one of those annoying people who like finding out everything else on the way.

The short story idea is good, but bear in mind that short story style is different to novel style and your writing has to be tighter than ever.

Hope this helps. It's just my opinion
Ruth

[This message has been edited by RFLong (edited May 13, 2004).]

Posted by Alias (Member # 1645) on :

Dakota, I agree with Ruth,

Finish the story, set it aside for a while, then start from the beginning and not the end for editing/rewriting.

That's what I'm doing, but because of some unfortunate time constraints I don't have the luxury of a 6 week period of no-touchie