OSC, for example, says that he creates an outline for the publisher, but he seldom sticks to it very strictly as he's writing, because he has so many ideas and thoughts that mold the story as he goes.

Stephen King hates outlines and the whole idea of plotting a story, and he thinks that it often takes away the 'truth' of it, forcing the characters to act in the way the plot requires, not as they would really act.

So where do you stand? Do you map out your stories extensively? Have a general idea of how they're going to proceed? Have no idea at all what's going to happen next, even as you're writing?
 

For me, short stories never. Novels always (although, never be unflexible).
 

I'm writing my first novel (185 pages as of today), and I wrote both a story treatment and a chapter outline of the thing. That's what I do, but why do you care?

When people ask this question, it seems to me they are trying to get a validation for their own working methods. If you outline and can find enough successful writers who outline, then perhaps Stephen King is wrong. And vice versa if you don't.

Here's the only thing all novelists have to agree on: At some point in time, they will have to figure out what their novel is about and where it's going. There are only three places you can do this: before you start, stopping halfway in your draft to figure it out, or waiting until you have a completed draft to sort it all out. Do whatever works for you.

I suppose I could search, but where's the fun in that?

As for why I'm posting this, do I have to have a reason? I'm simply curious. Note that I didn't state the way I work *grin*

[This message has been edited by AeroB1033 (edited March 28, 2004).]
 

For my current project, a novel (the first one I think I'll actually finish), I have a moderately detailed outline of the whole thing. I wrote about three chapters, then took a break to outline the rest scene-by-scene. (I've only made a few changes as I go along.)

For this project, it's important that I have the outline, because of the type of novel it is. It starts with a medical problem that must be solved, and ends when the characters work out what's going on. All the details have to lead to that end, and be consistent with the cause of the problem, so an outline keeps me from making major errors.

For other projects, I could probably get away with a couple of sentences about where the work is going.
 

Without thought of what the end will be, then the story is finished for me--

Shawn
 

So yeah, I outline. It's helped. I wish I can do it otherwise, but I can't. My brain just doesn't work that way, and I'm jealous.

Still, it's working how I do it, and I'm happy. Besides, an outline affords me a lot of flexibility, because as detailed as it is (at 30+ pages, it's pretty detailed)it's just a guideline. I can add or delete entire scenes, characters, or storylines, and I couldn't do that (I don't think) if I were just typing blind.

CVG

PS--Yay for me on my 200th post. I almost feel like I should celebrate. A nice chardonay, maybe? Or a chianti, perhaps.

[This message has been edited by cvgurau (edited March 29, 2004).]
 

I'm in the early stages of my WIP, page 16. My outline consists of 5-6 pages of plot details and a few pages on character sketches. It the word outline scares you call it a Snorkelblast.

As for Stephen King, refer to pg 166 of "On Writing". He tells how he did a 16 page outline for "Misery". If the word outline scares you like it does Stephen King, call it a Baboozle.

I'll let you know if it works when I sell it.

Rux
:}

[This message has been edited by teddyrux (edited March 29, 2004).]
 

I'm a man of logic so for me to justify the MASSIVE amount of time it takes to write a great story, I have to look at a rough sketch and say to myself "Now that is what I would want to see on a Saturday morning in the movie theatre!"

Even more motivating for me is to look over that outline that took maybe 4 or 5 hours or less, and if certain scenes give me goosbumps! Heck ya!

I've got fuel for the big write and the reqrites just from the jolt from the outline.

Still it has got to be about your personality. If you not so logic based a personality then heck just throw it all out there and see what happens.

Your answer,

It is up to you! Great writers have done both!

-Muogin
 

I really have no idea where the story is going at all when I start--I have a scene, or a character, or just an inkling of an idea. I sit and I type.

And no, I don't think anyone here thinks this outline is like the ones we did in school. Perhaps a first draft could be considered an outline of what th story will be--but then that outline is often 70,000 words or more.

How does it work? How does a person not end up with all sorts of mess?

Honestly?

I mean how do you know John will need the quarter he saw in the street one hundred pages pater to get into the pay toilet?

No idea. The subconscious is a wonderful thing. Did your mind know he would later have to get into the pay toilet--or did the fact that he picked up the quarter lead to him hiding in a pay toilet? Who knows? Who cares?

I used to fight with the idea that I would just write--I had to plan, I have several false starts to over planned (outlined) books. But I have 8 finished ones that flew by the seat of the pants.

You do what works for you. It works for me. But most others I know do use an outline, and others still, published others, do the same, but call that 70,000 word first draft the story outline.

Shawn
 

But if I plan too much, the magic is gone gone gone. The story is over--my mind says hey we did this already get over it here's the next 20 ideas pick one.

Shawn
 

Marianne
 

I've struggled with that problem before, even though I tend to prefer writing with an outline. I just have to be really careful how I think about a story and what I say about it.
 

But as I've said before, the hardest part about learning how to write is learning how you write. It's like learning your first language. When I learned Latin, the hardest part was learning how to learn a language. When I started on French (I never finished), things were much, much easier because I knew how to learn a language.

So I've just found another way that I can't write. No big deal, really. I'm not much of an Anthony Robbins disciple, but I do believe in one of his teachings--there is no such thing as failure, there are only results; if you don't like the results, change your methods.

I'm trying something a little different. Instead of thinking too much about stories, I started free-writing. In other words, I just sit down and write paragraph after paragraph about anything I want for as long as I want (last night, I wrote about my grandfather, who ended up being a hodgepodge of several old men I've had the privilege to know). Then, the following day, I go back over what I wrote and read it. Most of it is bad--terrible, in fact--but within those pages are one, maybe even two, gems that need a lot of polishing.

The result: I'm four pages into a short story that I like very much.

[This message has been edited by Balthasar (edited March 31, 2004).]
 

Those ungrateful little...

I don't outline as such, at least I don't most of the time. But I do need to have a clear idea where I'm taking the story, so I can keep my characters from running off into happily ever after land. Sun Tzu said, you need to seize something that your enemy cannot lose, then he will do your bidding. That's how I've got to treat my characters, take something they need and put it where they can't get it without going through all the crap I have planned to throw at them. That'll learn 'em.
 

For the purposes of an exploratory draft, I'm ok with not outlineing. In fact, for short stories I almost never outline anyway (although I usually have a clearer idea of where the end is. ) For novels I would consider writing an exploratory draft too, but from it I would then create an outline.
 

;-)

Brian

 

Of course, I'm one who prefers outlines, so I would.

I suspect that writers who prefer outlines may tend to be a little horrified at those who don't, and it may be in part because of what you've just described.

Those who outline may subconsciously feel that those who don't are like people who have no "outline" for their own lives, whether they do, in truth, or not. The mindset may carry over (or at least those who outline may think it does).

This could explain why, on a subconscious level, the two groups have trouble really understanding each other.

And then, again, maybe we're getting way too philosophical here.

I like the analog, though, Brian. Thanks for sharing it.
 

On the other hand George Lucas said that he never thought about making movies until he started making them. When he looked back on his life, he saw how his entire life was ordered to the making of movies. Go figure.

What it all comes down to, I think, is how the creative process works for the individual writer. There is no right or wrong way to do it. It's just a matter of finding what's right for you.

* * * * *

I want to make a correction to a comment made by teddyrux. He wrote:

quote:

---

As for Stephen King, refer to pg 166 of "On Writing". He tells how he did a 16 page outline for "Misery".

---

For purposes of living my life, I've embraced something between a Taoist approach and Sun Tzu's philosophy.

Which group do I fall into?
 

But, you, Survivor, are in a class by yourself.
 

I think having an outline would be a lot of help, especially if you want to have an intricate plot, but I worry that my characters' will suffer.

Of course, some of my characters need to suffer a little bit - to flesh them out
 

I decided to give it a try - wrote a wonderful outline of a full story, with detailed plot, wonderfully intricate character interaction, surprises etc.

Then I tried to write the first chapter and eventually found what I thought was writer's block was in fact that I'd already told myself the entire story and had to give up (for the time being, until I can forget the outline possibly...). Maybe it’s the same thing as the reason I don't keep a diary anymore. It felt like it just sucked away the things I wanted to put into my fiction.

Now I'm working on something new. Generally I'll have a beginning and an idea of the end. As I'm writing a scene, I'll have a pretty good idea of where I'm going with that and anything I know I need to drop in along the way. And new ideas spark up as I’m writing all the time. You do have to be pretty disciplined in that you can’t put in everything, but on the whole I prefer to work this way.

The main thing is, you can always go back and change things. If you decide later that a needs to be a water buffalo wrestler instead of a city banker (OK, bit of an exaggeration there), this can be done when editing.

But as shown by all the posts here, different things work for different people. The main thing is to find the right approach for you and your story (It won't always necessarily be the same).

 

I know it is important to be free, but on the same note a writer needs direction and often can't hold all information neatly organized in his mind, free to recall at any convenient moment. At least, I can't.

Right now I'm co-writing my first novel, currently sitting at 70k words and expecting another 20-30k, and I wouldn't have gotten this far had it not been for an outline.

[This message has been edited by Alias (edited April 02, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Alias (edited April 02, 2004).]
 

What you can try, instead of writing from the outline, is to REWRITE the outline itself. Consider the outline to be the STORY, and rewrite it, fleshing out the scenes (which are, of course, sadly lacking in detail) and the description and the characterization and so on.

You would probably have to rewrite any story you've finished writing anyway, and since rewriting uses different parts of your brain (and imagination) than writing does, it may be possible to bring the story to fullness even though you've already "told" it.

It's a thought, anyway. (I just hate to see good effort go to waste.)
 

See, a lot of people that are opposed to outlines have said basically the same things, that they can't be creative when the plot is locked down, that they can't feel motivated to keep writing once they already know the end of the story, that the characters are no longer "alive" once their actions are predetermined...and something about "magic".

The question that KDW's suggestion immediately brings to my mind is quite simple and obvious once you think of it.

How do the above points apply to rewriting? After all, a first draft is far worse than an outline in every respect mentioned above. And yet, writers that can't write from outlines still succeed in rewriting their stories to get them to a publishable level quite as often as writers that outline. I think that every writer who's gotten published agrees that rewriting is even more important than the initial writing as far as getting your work up to grade is concerned.

I do my outlines in my head...the moment an outline reaches a final form, I start writing prose rather than wasting time writing out the finished outline. But I don't start writing until the outline is complete in my head. I don't start writing a scene until I know the outline for that scene, I don't try and continue past that scene until the outline of the story as a whole is complete, I don't write the rest of the chapter until I've figured out where the chapter break is going to occur, and so on (I know, that might seem a bit strange, but to me it is perfectly logical to outline the initial scene first, then the entire story, then the individual chapters, then the rest of the scenes). I also enjoy rewriting--the closer the text is the the final form, the more I enjoy it, till the final edit, which I truly savor.

So I can understand why I wouldn't write out an outline until it was so final as to be no longer necessary...it is because I dislike trying to rewrite when I know I'm far from the final version.

But it would seem to me that from what most of the "don't outline" group has been saying, the closer the story is to the final form, the more agonizingly difficult it must be to work on it. How can you deal with that?
 

I think from what Survivor is saying that I work in a very similar way. I know where my current story is headed, who’s involved and their motivations. I know the next scene (in general terms). And I know in general terms the problems the characters will face along the way, even if I don’t know how it will turn out.

Perhaps it’s a question of immersion. By the time I’ve written an initial chapter or two, I get into the plot of a first draft, know my characters intimately and really care about them. One that has happened I can't <i>not</i> re-write. I want to make the story as good as I possibly can. Sometimes the main problem is to hold off until the first draft is finished!

And in many ways I enjoy the re-writing more than the actual writing. It’s the polishing of the sculpture rather than hacking away at a block of stone.

 

What I wonder is how successful writers who avoid planning out the story ahead of time so they don't kill the magic then move on to the rewriting stage.
 

If so, the answer is:

EDITING

LOL

when you write on the fly you find many times that at some point--oh man, I need a character to do this, and you put one in. Plot convenience, big time. But I leave it there and go on. Once I am done I go back and decide if I need that character or situation (say martial arts training, or a brother)

So if I need my main character to take a class or two or to have a needed skill, then I work that in on draft two. If I find that the brother is a plot convenience then I either work him into the story earlier or I rework parts of the story so the main character or a supporting main character can do what's needed.

Most of us who do not outline, I guess you could call our first drafts our outlines.

Shawn
 

But how does that square with what everyone was saying about how they lose the creative spark and all that once they know the plot?

I mean, isn't that spark even more important when you're getting to the actual words that will be in the finished work? As you say (or KDW...well, I've said this too, I guess), ideas are a dime a dozen...actually, it must be a lot less than that, because I certainly don't get a dime for ever dozen ideas I have...anyway, it is the implementation that counts.

Of course, maybe that's just the difference between writers that love editing and those that consider it a chore. But...I don't know. Isn't something like ninety percent of a great story in the re-writing? I mean, you're one of the re-writing advocates, right? So shouldn't writers strive to make the re-writing process the height of their creative process?
 

It is the art part of the process. Story on page without true conscious thought of the story.

I let the characters and the story guide me. All I do is put it on the page.

Then I go back and fix the mechanics of the story. I correct passive voice, fill in lacking descriptions, get rid of overblown ones, move whole chapters around or plot threads. Fix or get rid of dead ends, eliminate repetitiveness, make sure all the ends are tied up nice and neat.

Then I make sure that I look for my pet words, make sure the punctuation and formating are correct (though on that first draft most of the mechanics in the area of grammar and format and punctuation are on auto pilot)

The spark of creativity is int he first draft, I lose that spark if I plan it out before the first draft. But, in the editing and rewriting, the editor kicks in and it's OK to know the end because I have already, in a true sense, gotten there. (not just in my thoughts or in a simple outline (or complex outline.) The novel is down on paper, all I have to do is fine tune it and at times, yes, that means adjusting the satellite dish itself (major fixes.) But it works, and has worked well for me.

I do have a funky formula I use to write and edit a novel, and hey, maybe when I finally sell one I will write on on this weird fly by BIC way of writing.

Basically:

Write novel non-stop, only reread enough to get the story going on any given day, make no corrections to plot or anything else until story is down on paper. (takes about 30 days to write 70,000 words this way)

Search and destroy all possible passive voice. (yes some is needed--think overuse. And I look at every instance of it to see if it can be made more active)

Search and decide on every repetitive passage of information. A lot of times I will give the same info in several places--so need to decided the best place for that info to be.

Make sure there is the right amount of info so the reader is not left scratching their head in a what the heck does that mean.

Plot conveniences, shoot them out the window.

Check for flow.

Add words to descriptions or subtract where needed.

IN first person get rid of as many instances of the word "I" as I can.

All other POV check for head hopping that doesn't work.

PET WORDS--ugh! search and destroy.

Fix punctuation and basic grammar issues--for some reason I have a habit of typing me instead of my (don't ask I have no idea why I do this.)

Give a final read through. Fix formatting last.

Send to wise readers and start process over again.

Time frame on rewrites: about 3 months.

Let sit one month.

Reread spend one month cleaning up any other crap that comes out of the month's sit.

In the sit month write new first draft of next novel, and on goes the process.

Shawn

 

I don't use passive voice as a rule, so even though I look for it (I use WP to search for instances of passive voice)(No, it does not help me correct them, but it helps me find them)(and my agent's a true passive voice hater and he only found one instance of it that annoyed him when he went through the ms)

My grammar and punctuation (in my writing) are almost flawless.

My biggest is typos and misspellings. I do things like collages for colleagues and from for form ect--ugh I Hate those and I think a great deal of the editing my agent and I did was to get rid of them--tons of them even after I had gone through the ms with a fine tooth comb. He'd send me lists of pages that had them on--and I had to search for them and fix them.

Really, for the most part I have good plot flow. Maybe a plot convenience here and there, but not a major one.

The novel that is out there on publisher's desks right now had a Christ parallel plot thread in it--my agent wanted it out as it may have offended some editors ect. I didn't want to take it out--I had based a third book on that thread. Out it went. That hurt and took a lot of time going back and getting rid of all the little things that held that thread in place.

One thing I have learned in dealing with an agent that edits the heck out of his author's work--(which I am sure is why my ms is sitting on 5 desks at this time under consideration--publishers know he delivers a publish ready ms--or at least a very polished one)(which amazes the heck out of me.) Oh yeah, the original thought--is that no word, no matter how pretty is sacred. An agent or publisher will and can change it. You really have to decide where to stand your ground.

It's not easy when you want to keep all of it because you worked very hard to get the words all right.

But now as I edit book two and edit a third novel, not related to the first two, I see things different than I did and my writing has gotten better (maybe not the writing, but the editing is easier.) I can wipe out whole chapters and not even care.

And when you look at it--4 to 6 months for a completed project is a good time frame.

Shawn

quote:

---

Uhg. That sounds truly horrible.

---

Sounds pretty similar to what I do when I edit something longer, although I should add more of the passive voice catches with the word processor-- thanks for the idea, Shawn. The only differences: I almost always edit on paper-- it's how I learned, and I should make myself readapt-- and I can't deal without some kind of outline, even if I don't know ninety percent of what's going in there. (And I'm a lot slower at the initial draft...)

Of course, I grew up beta-reading three-hundred odd pages at a time, and I don't think I ever really learned to be scared of it. I'm sick enough to really enjoy editing when I'm in the right mood. Now keeping myself on track every day with writing the first draft-- that's the hard part for me.
 

Shawn
 

You have really opened up my mind here and perhaps given me a solution to my recent block against working on a couple of stories I have started.

I am a perfectionist by nature, and have been over-analyzing my stories until they fizzle out and die an early death. I've thought I was doing something wrong by not having an outline, but now I see that I have restricted my creativity by stopping and tearing my stories to shreds before they've gone anywhere! Trying to outline and organize my plotlines has been my problem. Thank you so much for sharing the process you go through. Now maybe I can FINISH something!!!

Much gratitude,
LL
 

Hope it works for you, too!
 

Otherwise the reader will scream plot convenience! and the rest of the time they will be wondering what happened to the dog.

But in that first draft leave it. Maybe the idea will grow--hey cool if he has a dog then he will be like this and you can work a "dog" thread through on rewrites.

Glad I could help.

Shawn

 

Nothing. Just reacting to the mention of house mice.
 

My reaction to house mice was a little more violent. Since they were my-house-mice, I guess that's understandable.
 

Shawn
 

quote:

---

Responding to earlier, my cat bites me till I put him on my head when I write.

---

Wow. See, this is why I wish I had cats. Are they transportable through the internet? Can I borrow someone's cat through FTP protocol?
 

Rux
;]
 

Why not follow the experts? <more wicked laughter> For instance, according to Snoopy (who has his own opinions about cats, BTW):
Danielle Steel: One year to write outline, a month for first draft, eighteen months for editing.
Ed McBain: Never begins a novel till he has a solid title. Doesn't "believe in detailed outlines because once a book has been outlined too rigidly, the rest is only typing -- and that's no fun."

Why drive yourself insane? For as many writers as there are, there are as many variations of the outline vs. free-write methods. Do whatever works for you. And whatever works will probably vary with different projects for the same writer. Vive la difference!

And adopt a cat.

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited April 17, 2004).]
 

And I also think every writer has to find what works for them. The best way to find your way to do it--try the ways others do it.

Make sense?

That's why there are so many "how to" books out there. You will hit a method that works for you and it will be a huge bright bulb going off. For me this was that danged "you are so sick of hearing about" Feb 2000 issue of Writer's Digest and a book called "The Complete Guide to Editing Your Fiction" Writer's Digest books. Now very dog eared and marked up.

I started there and it worked for me. Then I refined until I have my method--which BTW I don't recommend to most people. It is not easy, and it takes practice.

But once you find your way, and we all learn by mimicking others, your writing will take off.

Sorry if this sounds pompous and bossy, not intended that way at all. All of the above is IMHO--intended only to help others.

Shawn
 

Most times this corner happens when you try to make the story go your way. If I do get into one--most times you do know right where you started into the corner.

You just have to admit it and then be willing to back up.

Shawn
 

quote:

---

back up out of the corner and start at a previous point where the story was going well.
Most times this corner happens when you try to make the story go your way. If I do get into one--most times you do know right where you started into the corner.

You just have to admit it and then be willing to back up.

Shawn

---

Good advice, though it could be argued that it's quite possible to "write yourself into a corner" by being "truthful"... that is, you can sometimes get yourself into a really tough spot simply by having your characters do exactly what they would do. This can be especially tricky when it comes to motive, but there can also be problems when it comes to extracting the character from some situation or taking the plot in a direction that allows the story to continue and/or end in a fashion that was set up by the beginning. If all of that makes sense.
 

But I've always written this way--fly by the seat of my pants.

Outlines can be explained and taught.

The BIC fly by way is either something you can do or you can't.

IMHO

Shawn
 

quote:

---

you can sometimes get yourself into a really tough spot simply by having your characters do exactly what they would do

---

If that's the case, I wouldn't try to force character's behavior, but perhaps there is another conflict, some subplot, some ... thing missing that your story needs to "encourage" them in another direction.
 

For one thing, either my villians turn out to be unbeatable superheros in disguise, or they decide to give up being villains, or they are just idiots compared to the heroes. If I just fly by the seat of my pants, then either the villians change sides, the heroes change sides, they both come to a reasonable accommodation, or somebody is a total idiot (usually the villain) that is no match for the opposing team.

The big problem is that when my heroes get uber-smart and solve everything, they usually do it in a way that completely disregards conventional notions of morality. I've written a couple of stories about that kind of thing, but they're probably a bit disturbing to most readers.

I let the characters write the story, and they're like, "well, the readers all have thumbs to suck, and you don't have a plan, so we'll do it our way!"

I personally love the stories they write. But I'm a bit of a socio-path that way. Most people shudder.

So I have a goal, and constraints, and objectives. I don't allow my characters to have their druthers...they'll just take the audiance apart and laugh at your expense.