I did the final printing of my project in Courier New, but found a glitch. About three times in the text, when a sentence apparently had the maximum number of characters, and since Courier doesn't adjust the type to fit the line like Times New Roman does, it printed with the final quotation mark on the next line all by itself. Nothing I did would get those little buggers back on their proper line, and I finally realized I was fighting a losing battle if Courier wouldn't budge about how many characters to put on a line. I left it as it was, figuring if publishers were familiar with Courier, they were familiar with hanging lone quotation marks.
And then (JB, are you listening? 
This is one of the reasons I said you weren't alone.) After I sent everything off, I happened to glance through Tor's submission guidelines for no reason in particular, nerves, I guess, since I HAD read them before several times prior to printing my project, but somehow never caught the following:
quote:
Please turn off margin justification and proportional spacing; pages with ragged right margins are easier for us to read, and easier for our production department to set.
"Proportional spacing?" My blood ran a bit cold at that. Isn't that what Courier New is? (Although it doesn't affect ragged margins, which is probably why I missed this.) So I should have just stuck with Times New Roman? And now I have hanging quotation marks like little orphans begging for attention in my mailed manuscript? Aaargh!
<sigh of sad frustration>
But I have never had the problem with lone quotation marks that you describe. If the quotation mark will not fit at the end of a line, the entire last word of the line should be wrapped to a new line. What word processor are you using?
I've never had a problem with Courier New. The only thing I don't like about it, which is why I don't use it, is that it prints too light. Instead, I downloaded a darker courier -- Courier10 BT (from Word Perfect, I think) -- which gives you nice dark type. But like Eric said, when I put a quotation mark at the end of a word and it carries past the margin, the quotation mark along with the word carry to the next line.
Something must be wrong with your computer.
There are alot of deviations of this problem, (esp. ". . .") don't worry about it. Don't cut your line off prematurely either, just submit it as-is. It allows for a proper word count.
Good luck Kolona, btw - very excited to hear you sent your manuscript! Sending it successful thoughts. Do you have an agent (not asking who, just yes/no) or did you send to Tor because they take unagented ms (aside from them being a great publishing house)?
(EDIT - dah - took too long to post, and after I did I see JB said that Courier is proportional - glad I had something right!)
[This message has been edited by punahougirl84 (edited March 02, 2004).]
-F
[This message has been edited by Jerome Vall (edited March 02, 2004).]
In proportional fonts, the amount of space a letter takes up is proportional to its width. So lllll takes up a lot less space than MMMMM.
code:In fixed-width fonts, lllll takes up as much space as MMMMM, so the fact that
your manuscript has a lot of M words won't make it seem to be longer than a manuscript
with a lot of l words.
[This message has been edited by EricJamesStone (edited March 02, 2004).]
Margin justification means leave a ragged edge on the right side. Justifying both edges introduces the proportionality again, creating the whole word count mess all over again even if you used a monospaced font.
If it is leaving the " on lines by itself, which is not something caused by Courier, it sounds like you have taken the word wrap (so that that the whole word moves down with the quote) off by accident. Check your word processor settings.
[This message has been edited by GZ (edited March 02, 2004).]
Here's another good page for proper manuscript format.
http://www.shunn.net/writing/coach/introduction.html
So what I understand it, from reading guidelines and this thread is:
- white bond paper (does it matter if it is 20lb or 24lb?)
- double-spaced
- unjustified right margin
- one inch margins
- Courier or similar monospace font
- 12pt font
Anything missing?
Seriously, folks...Thanks for all the helpful responses. I appreciate it. Eric, I have Word2000. Jerome, I didn’t know you could download a font. I would have thought you had to get the whole program or nothing. I agree that Courier New is too light, and somewhere I read (maybe on Hatrack?) about printing everything in bold, but that seems like a double use of ink. ‘Course, a darker font is probably the same thing. I wondered about the ... ,JB. Courier put all three dots in one space, which I thought was stupid. Seems to me that would throw off the word count. Which settings in particular, GZ? I checked a few things, with no luck, and asked my office assistant about “word wrap,” but she didn’t know much. Strange as this may seem, Pickled, I found a rubber chicken in a parking lot recently. I thought rubbing it would be sufficient, but I guess that only works with lamps.
Punahougirl, thanks so much for the sentiments. No, I don’t have an agent. That quest will be my next order of business. Although I'm glad Tor maintains an active slush pile (bless their brave hearts), I was able to skip it this time and went directly to Go. An editor from Tor critiqued twenty pages for me at a writers’ conference back in August and asked me to send him the whole manuscript. Now it remains to be seen if I can collect the $200. ('Course, after this post, my rejection will be rather public. <cringe> No. Positive thoughts. I'm 
)
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited March 02, 2004).]
Actually, a more public rejection could be good. We can all commiserate with you in that case. You have friends in your sorrow. Of course, if it makes it, we'll be insanely jealous and turn into bitter enemies. We're foul-weather friends.
Yeah, I can see how a rubber chicken might not work. It's really hard to bleed one.
Four dots, no space after the last word.
Courier New is a mono-spaced font which only means that each letter takes up the same amount of space whether its an "i" or a "w." Times New Roman is not...
I found some useful tips on www.sfwa.org check it out for info on fonts and word counts and manuscript prep.
Thanks JB and Balthasar for bringing to my attention yet another of those little things I should really know about.
And just to further display my ignorance. I'm assuming when you say an ellipsis at the end of a paragraph should be made up of four dots, the same applies for an ellipsis at the end of a sentence also?
[This message has been edited by Gwalchmai (edited March 03, 2004).]
Another thing you should know about is how to us an em-dash--those dashes that set off a clause, like this one. And--in case you're wondering--those dashes that set off a parenthetical phrase, as in this sentence.
You SHOULD NOT put a space between the dash and the words -- like this -- because if your story is accepted, it makes the typesetter's job more difficult. And if your margins cut the dash in half, put a space between the word and the dash so that the dash stays together on the next line.
[This message has been edited by Balthasar (edited March 03, 2004).]
"I thought that might happen but. . ." he said.
Three dots or four? I'd expect three and without a comma but I'm beginning to think I'm probably wrong.
Crikey, how much trouble can three little dots be? I've never really thought about them before and just stuck them in without thinking about whether there were any rules regarding how they appear in the manuscript.
I did know about the em-dashes though but thanks for mentioning it just in case.
Yippee! I knew something! Makes me feel a bit better.
Welcome to the board, Corycdaughton, but what a boring place to begin.
Eric, <lightbulb goes on above head> I think I know why I got those hanging quotation marks. I don’t know what I can do about them, though. As I said, it happened only three times in all my 120,000 words, so it wasn’t easy to locate them again. I did find two, though, and both are immediately after a dash – which is apparently the whole problem.
Type the following in Courier New:
“I have no idea what you’re talking about. My name’s Cran—”
I don’t know if your margins will be exactly the same, so you might have to add or subtract letters to get the first keystroke that makes up the dash to be the last thing you can type on the line. If you do that, the last quotation mark will go to the next line – and it’ll be a beginning quotation mark, not an ending one.
Now, I’ve found that trying to end a quote with a dash, as when someone is cut off while speaking, is impossible if you type, as in this case, the letters C, r, a, n, then hit the hyphen twice for a dash, then the final quotation mark. You get a beginning quotation mark that’s turned the wrong way. So what I do is type C, r, a, n, hit the hyphen key twice, type any letter (to fill the space to fool the quotation mark coming up), then the last quotation mark, then backspace once with the arrow key (so I don’t delete anything yet), then backspace with the backspace key to delete whatever extra letter I added to fill the space before the quotation mark, and voila, I have a dash before a final quotation mark. Of course, if it comes at the end of a line, then the quotation mark travels to the next line all by its lonesome self.
So, because I was trying to solve the problem of ending a quote with a dash, I ended up with hanging end quotation marks when the line was full. And it’s not unique to Courier New. I just did it in TNR by adding extra letters to the same sentence. (Although I don’t ever remember doing it before in TNR. Never entered the perfect line, I guess.)
Wow.
You’re probably going to tell me the solution is some simple thing I didn’t think of and which could have saved me a lot of trouble, but that’ll be par for the course.
quote:
In Times New Roman it seems to automatically increase the spacing between the dots but Courier New always scrunches them up and I had thought this made it a little awkward to read.
Gwalchmai, I had this problem, too. In fact, when I did the four dots for sentence ends, it really looked stupid – three scrunched dots, a space, then another dot. It got so that I would read an abrupt stop in places I knew were trail-offs, so I went through and got rid of all the fourth dots, even though I knew they were more correct. But I’d seen just three used at ends of sentences, so I went with a less correct use but a more visually understandable configuration. And now JB says I could have turned off the scruncher. (Gotta find out how to do that.)
I must say, enter 120,000 words of text, and you do learn some things about your computer.
Oh. Looking over my earlier post, I had to chuckle. It occurred to me that someone even less informed than I am about computers or with a different system may think I have an assistant. I was referring, of course, to the little office assistant character Microsoft provides -- in my case, the cat.
A pat on the back to anyone who read through this whole post. Two pats if they understood it.
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited March 03, 2004).]
OK, I was able to reproduce it, and that's something that I don't think there's a setting to fix.
To manually fix the problem, insert an extra space in front of the last word on the line. That will cause it (and the dash) to wrap to the next line to be with the quotation mark.
>>>>John sighed. "I just wish . . . ."
>>>>"I just wish . . ." John sighed.
You can also close an ellipsis with a question mark.
>>>>John looked at Ann. "Do you . . . ?"
That probably works better than this:
>>>> "Do you . . . ?" John asked, looking at Ann.
But this is a matter of style. The point is to keep all of this stuff as invisible as possible so the reader doesn't get pulled out of the fictional dream you're tyring to weave.
PS -- Other writers may have other ways of doing this kind of stuff. For example, Stephen King will sometimes end a sentence with a ?!? or a !?! or even a ??, none of which I care for, really. I find this stuff unnecessary because if the scene is written well (and most of King's scenes are), the mind naturally knows how something is said. And if you must emphasize dialogue, underlining (i.e., italizing), or putting it in ALL CAPS, or even both works best, I think.
But these are matters of little importance, I think, easily changed by editors with their own opinions.
[This message has been edited by Balthasar (edited March 03, 2004).]
Kolona, if you've done what I've done and gone with the scrunched up ellipses then I hope someone can help you (and me for that matter, so maybe I do have another question) figure out a way of changing them without having to search through the entire document. When I tried using the 'find' option to search for ... it didn't pick them up. My document is about the same size as yours and since I've already read it through twice recently I'm not relishing the idea of a third run. I've also discovered it is very hard to pick them all up by scrolling through because they are so small and inconspicuous. I suppose it's my own fault for not realising this to begin with.
Gwalchmai, I also tried to do a search for “…” and it didn’t work, either, so I combed through for them, which is why I wasn’t anxious to do it again for the hanging quotation marks (cousins, you know, of the hanging chad ). Repeat after me: “It’s not my fault. It’s not my fault.”
JB & Balthasar, I know this can be a stylistic thing, but to me an ellipsis is a trailing off of speech or thought in a gentle downward curve, whereas a dash is an abrupt, usually premature stop. I think they can be used to good effect in conveying more precisely what is written. IMO, of course.
quote:
- white bond paper (does it matter if it is 20lb or 24lb?)
I don't think it matters to the editor, but if you use 24lb instead of 201b paper, your manuscript may require more stamps.
With 20lb paper, six sheets of paper weigh just under an ounce, so every additional six sheets means one more stamp. With 24lb paper, you need another stamp with fewer sheets of paper.
Huh? I don't know how you got what you got. I don't remember suggesting that an ellipsis and a dash are interchangeable. I hope I didn't! You're right, an ellipsis gives a sense of trailing away, where as a dash doesn't.
And I'm not sure this is really a matter for personal preference. It seems to me most books on style will say the same thing about the dash and the ellipsis. You can't use one for the other, just like you can't use a comma for a period.
Eric, you are a two hundred and twenty seven hour saving genius! Thank you. Phew, I'm glad I don't have to go through all that again. I hate reading the same book three times back-to-back, even if it is my own.
quote:
Welcome to the board, Corycdaughton, but what a boring place to begin.
Maybe, but it has been quite an informative thread, and not just with reference to these damned ellipses. Quite a bit of information regarding submission guidelines in general really.
And I'll second that welcome while I'm at it.
[This message has been edited by Gwalchmai (edited March 04, 2004).]
I too have found this thread very helpful - things that matter that I had not thought of, and hadn't seen in submission guidelines.
I printed my current story in Courier New, on econofast (I get black streaks through the lower third of my words with my current printer, regardless of cleaning, aligning, or replacing the print cartridge, but at least on econofast they are lighter - still won't be able to submit anything printed on it). It sure looked odd, but after a while was easier to read with the spacing of the letters. I can see why an editor would prefer it, aside from the word count issue.
It was dark enough to read - but I assume submissions can/should be done with the "normal" quality of printing, as opposed to "econofast" or "best" - yes?
If "econofast" doesn't look as good as "normal," then use "normal."
) I’ve been jotting things down throughout the day as they occurred to me, so this will be longish and probably tiresomely disjointed.
quote:
Huh? I don't know how you got what you got. I don't remember suggesting that an ellipsis and a dash are interchangeable. I hope I didn't!
quote:
But this is a matter of style….But these are matters of little importance, I think, easily changed by editors with their own opinions.
(Why I do that on occasion, I don’t know. I’m always sorry. Better to just tell it like it is. )
quote:
It depends on how the dialogue is written. Compare: < your examples>
As far as positioning making a difference with ellipses accompanied by their proper punctuation, it would probably be better to tweak the text to accommodate proper ellipsis use. For instance, in
<"Do you . . . ?" John asked, looking at Ann.>
John really didn’t ask, because he didn’t finish his question. Why not
<“Do you . . .?” John tried to ask the question, looking at Ann, but the words wouldn’t come.>
JB wrote
quote:
Four dots, no space after the last word.
quote:
To find scrunched dots, etc…. if you find one, you can copy & paste it into the search box. That should let you find & replace the rest of them.
quote:
The three-dots thing is an autocorrect/autoformat option that Word does for you. (Ick. It's not even correct.) You can turn it off if you like.
quote:
Other writers may have other ways of doing this kind of stuff. For example, Stephen King will sometimes end a sentence with a ?!? or a !?! or even a ??, none of which I care for, really. I find this stuff unnecessary because if the scene is written well (and most of King's scenes are), the mind naturally knows how something is said. And if you must emphasize dialogue, underlining (i.e., italizing), or putting it in ALL CAPS, or even both works best, I think.
Comic books in text format. How’s that?) All caps probably wouldn’t be advisable, since underlining is what publishers want for indicating stressed words. However, I’m sure there are occasions when caps are acceptable – maybe a character is reading a letter in which certain words are in caps. Most likely, there are other odd instances.
quote:
And it’s not unique to Courier New. I just did it in TNR by adding extra letters to the same sentence. (Although I don’t ever remember doing it before in TNR. Never entered the perfect line, I guess.)
quote:
And if your margins cut the dash in half, put a space between the word and the dash so that the dash stays together on the next line.
Econofast, best…I’ve learned something new again. This is a good thread.
<groan> Less should have been more...Hemingway must be haunting me.
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited March 04, 2004).]
1. Go to the Tools menu.
2. Choose AutoCorrect....
3. On the AutoCorrect tab, you should see a table with two columns. The first column shows a sequence of characters that will trigger AutoCorrect, and the second shows what will be used to replace that sequence.
4. One row of the table will show ... in the first column and the ellipsis character in the second column.
5. Select that row.
6. Click the Delete button.
Word will no longer replace ... with the ellipsis character.
While you're there, you might want to switch over to the AutoFormat as You Type tab and uncheck the box for replacing straight quotes with "smart quotes" (if , like me, you don't like "smart quotes.") You can also uncheck a box to prevent the replacing of -- with the dash character, if you don't like that being done automatically.
I've read about the different style books, but could someone tell me which one the sf/f publishers go by, or want us to use? Thanks!
(I do have an MLA somewhere, buried in college stuff, but I'll never find it)
There's an interesting discussion of dashes and ellipses here
http://www.mirror.org/terry.hickman/Ellipsis.html
maybe it will help.
I also believe you can find what style manuals a publisher uses by checking WRITER'S MARKET. If a publisher wants a specific style, they will usually say so in the manuscript formatting instructions in their listing in WRITER'S MARKET.
quote:
and I'm just discovering that in dashes you use TWO and no spaces, or something like that....
Thanks, Eric. I’ll try it. I was in the auto-area earlier, but didn’t know what I could touch without screwing up my computer.
Wow. Info overload, Kathleen. Good stuff, though. Anyone know if any part of the following is a typo, because I don’t get it:
quote:
As for dot-dot-dot: Chicago says to use three-to-em spaces between the dots
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited March 04, 2004).]
Kolona - my husband is king of crossword puzzles, and his mind is a vast storehouse of useless knowledge. Except when a question like yours about "em" comes up! He said it had to do with printers and to do a particular search. I did, and here is one result:
http://www.apa-letterpress.org/Files/TP/Handset%20Type%202.html
" THREE-TO-EM SPACES are one-third the width of the square em quad. They are the standard word spaces used in regular text composition."
If you read the several entries on em spaces, it looks like it matters to printers. For us, it looks like three-to-em spaces are just our regular spaces!
I'm sure someone will correct me, and tell us about the spacing it refers to, and how we can do x, y, and z to get our spacing exactly correct! Problem is, I love using the three dots, and the dashes that set off text as you described.
Wah - all I wanted to do was write a story and send it somewhere and get paid without knowing obscure printers' references 
[This message has been edited by punahougirl84 (edited March 04, 2004).]
I can say that an en-dash is equivalent to a hyphen, and an em-dash is equivalent to what people usually think of as a dash. (On a keyboard, you type the hyphen key once to indicate an en-dash and twice to indicate an em-dash.)
Another one of those little style bugaboos that drive writers crazy involves whether or not to put spaces on either side of the two hyphens when you type them to indicate a dash. I've seen it done both ways, and I think it depends on the style manual you (or publishers) prefer. I suspect the spaces are because in some fonts the hyphen looks too much like an em-dash, and since hyphens don't have spaces on either side of them, the spaces let you know that it isn't a hyphen and that it is an em-dash.
I still think Times New Roman is a lot easier to read.
(That example doesn't work since it's not in the offending font.}
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited March 04, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited March 04, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited March 04, 2004).]
My understanding is that for correct typesetting in proportional fonts, you should use an em-space (that is, a space that is the same width as a capital M, which you can get in word by pressing ctrl+alt+space, if my memory isn't playing tricks on me) after sentences. I'm not sure where you would use an en-space, though.
Hyphen is used to join words together (as in "a partially-sighted person", to use an example from a document on my desk).
Dash (or en-dash) is used primarily to specify ranges (e.g. "3-5 people").
Em-dash (usually written "--" when you're typing, but you can get an em-dash character from Word by pressing Ctrl+alt+dash if you're preparing something for direct printing) is used as punctuation within a sentence, to indicate a longer and more serious break than a comma would imply, or a sudden stop (e.g. "I don't know why -- I just did").
If you're used to TeX, '-' is hyphen, '--' is en-dash and '---' is em-dash. Most style guides suggest having no spaces around an em-dash. I know I usually do because it makes it easier to read.
quote:
First of all, writers, it is not proper to put spaces between the periods in an ellipsis; it should look like ..., not . . ..
Then in the next message:
quote:
Chicago says to use three-to-em spaces between the dots
I'm confused. Are these two conflicting pieces of advice or am I just not understanding the term 'three-to-em spaces'? I must admit I had never heard of it before. And anyway, is it seriously going to make a big difference which piece of advice I follow?
quote:
usually written "--" when you're typing
quote:
regarding those three little dots. I can't believe how much trouble they're suddenly giving me.
This is a riot. We have the Mad Hatter's tea party on one thread and Abbott and Costello over here. LOL And then the final authority gives advice phrased in printers' hieroglyphics. <rolling on the floor> )[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited March 05, 2004).]
Hi, guys! I heard there was a conversation about Courier New over here! It's so totally not a proportional font! What do you think??
[pause]
Kidding. Slow Friday, and I'm really, really bored.
Cameron
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.html
Kolona - my husband thanks you for the buss, but I must remind you that this whole thread is your fault - or Courier New's fault - or the fault of the dash/hyphen/whatever (and I have a hyphenated last name, so I think kindly of the little line myself)!!!
Cameron - thanks for the giggle - had a long day and I really needed that... (look, see me posting with lines and dots and doing it wrong and NOT CARING ANYMORE!)
Until I submit :O
quote:
For manuscripts, inserting an ellipsis character is a workable method, but it is not the preferred method. It is easy enough for a publisher to search for this unique character and replace it with the recommended three periods plus two nonbreaking spaces (. . .). But in addition to this extra step, there is also the potential for character-mapping problems (the ellipsis could appear as some other character) across software platforms—an added inconvenience. Moreover, the numeric entity for an ellipsis is not formally defined for standard HTML (and may not work with older browsers). So type three spaced dots, like this . . . or, at the end of a grammatical sentence, like this. . . . If you can, add two nonbreaking spaces to keep the three dots—or the last three of four—from breaking across a line.
(I was going to reduce this entry from the address JB provided, http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.html
but I would have had to insert several ellipses, and given the subject matter, I thought that would be too confusing. )
So. The scrunched-up ellipsis character of Courier New is okay but not preferred, but three dots separated by two spaces is preferred (Or is that ‘are’ preferred? Anyway…). However, since different software can cause glitches in any transfer process between them, it’s advised to type dot/space/dot/space/dot or dot/space/dot/space/dot/space/dot, depending on whether or not you’re ending a sentence. And, try to make sure the whole series can’t be broken at the end of a line.
This, of course, doesn’t take into account that in Courier New those three dots and two spaces seem to take up a lot of room, but I guess that’s okay.
I think I want this to be a rhetorical question because I’m really afraid to go here, but “the three dots—or the last three of four” seems to imply that the last three dots comprise the ellipsis, whereas I thought the first three dots comprise the ellipsis and the last dot is actually the period, just as it would be the question mark if applicable. After all, an interrogatory sentence ending with an ellipsis would end like this ‘. . . ?’ not this ‘? . . .’ (I’m adding this parenthetical statement to keep from having to add the period to that sentence right after those examples ). I’ll go out on a limb and speculate that trying to keep the spaces unbroken means playing loose with which dots are which, and I’d have to go back into this thread to see how to do that, keep the spaces unbroken, that is. I think somebody explained how earlier. If they didn’t, I wish they’d do so now.
The only other thing I need to correct is that I found the rubber chicken in a store. (It was milk I found in the parking lot.) The poor bird’s neck was rubbed raw and cracked, and its head quite beat up, but something about that plucked chicken compelled me to give it a home. Unlike the milk.
(CW is definitely our resident Valley Guy. )
So, to do an ellipsis, you type the last word, then a dot right after it without a space, then space/dot/space/dot, and if it is at the end of a sentence, you add another space/dot or instead of the dot you add a question mark or whatever. . . . So what I just typed after "whatever" would be correct for ending a sentence?
For broken off speech you would do something like the following: "Hey, what the. . . ," he yelled. The comma is ok like that?
If I'm right, I'm feeling better. I just did a find/replace on a story doing that. In Courier New. . . .
However, you are aware that two spaces make up the proper distance between sentences? So "or whatever. . . . So what" would be "or whatever. . . . So what."* ** Having seen on the F&F thread an example of your writing (which was refreshingly pristine, I might add), I suppose you actually know this.
*(Hmmm...apparently this site reduces all double spaces to one. Shame on it.)
quote:
For broken off speech you would do something like the following: "Hey, what the. . . ," he yelled. The comma is ok like that?
Structurally, yes. Contextually...oh dear. How can anyone yell with a comma? I would think yelling demands an exclamation mark. However, and this might just be personal preference, I'm not partial to a trail off followed by a dialogue tag.
A)
<"Hey, what the...!" he yelled.>
<"Hey, what the...!">
and
B)
<"But he didn't...," he said, losing his thought.">
<"But he didn't," he said, losing his thought.>
<"But he didn't...." He lost his thought.>
In group A, the second seems sufficient without the stated yelling; in group B, I'd go with the third, or the second, which implies a trail-off. The 'he said' in the first seems to negate the trail-off.
quote:
I just did a find/replace on a story doing that. In Courier New. . . .
You brave girl.
**This is a particular gripe of mine about published books, that between sentence spacing is only one space. I find reading marginally confusing at times, as if I'm not pausing properly between thoughts. It seems unfair that even though submitted manuscripts are expected to keep to the proper two spaces for the ease of editors, readers are put upon with the single space distance.
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited March 08, 2004).]
Oops! Yes, if I used "yelled" I would have used an exclamation point! Just not thinking (it's the thinking that gets me every time).
And yes, my husband says the html does change the double space into a single space.
And an "oh dear" - I was taught the two space rule between sentences, but just recently was taught no, for submissions, use only ONE space. I've had the hardest time retraining myself to do only one space, and now I'm being told I should not have changed what I was doing? AUGH! My story is all single-spaced
I don't suppose anyone can give more info on THAT bit of knowledge?
Thanks for the "refreshingly pristine" comment (like a puna?), but I'll admit the whole story is not like that, I don't think. Do the words "flavanoid quercetin" mean anything to you?!
)Hmmm...'hou.' I guess you mean the noun form of the word, which would go along with those sporting events. (This discussion belongs with 'deckle' in the word thread. )
quote:
AUGH! My story is all single-spaced
Again, I feel your pain. I can only say I know I recently read very clearly in some manuscript format instructions, that even though the published product will come out in single-space-separated sentences, you should be sure to double those spaces in your manuscript, as is customary. I'm so sorry to be the one to tell you.
Flavanoid quercetin? (Flavonoid quercetin?) Is that anything like a Crapsey Cinquain?
(Pretend this is an HTML quote notation)
If I'm right, I'm feeling better. I just did a find/replace on a story doing that. In Courier New. . . .
(And this is an HTML endquote notation)
I had to do that to exactly reproduce the layout of your words. You have a lone dot all by itself on one line, a prime example of the need for unbreakable spaces for ellipses and their sometimes punctuation.
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited March 06, 2004).]
Yes, "flavonoid" and I'll just apologize now that the draft I sent you, Survivor, and Cameron has it spelled incorrectly. I don't think you want me jamming your inboxes with another 63k just to fix one letter - but it is fixed in MY copy - thanks! I'll have to fix all the spacing tomorrow, as I am turning into a pumpkin.
I understand what you mean - the unbreakable space keeps the dots together instead of having some of them move onto the next line, yes? That makes sense. I will have to use a fine eye to check my work, style book by my side.
As for Crapsey Cinquain - now you are just scaring me (but in a good way). My grandmother's name was also Adelaide - Adelaide Wallace (yes, of the clan - my parents insisted I see Braveheart!). And I just found a poem I wrote in that style a few years back, without ever having studied that style (cheated, looked it up because you intrigued me). I don't believe in channeling, but I have shivers up my spine.
I am ever so glad you started this thread - not just as an educational experience, but to get us (me) thinking about things that are important, that I was ignorant of until now.
(I couldn’t latch onto that last night.)Remembered Hawaii? Ask anyone who knows me if I’ve forgotten. My three-year-old granddaughter pretends she’s going to Hawaii with her friend. (No influence there, right? )
Still gotta find out how to keep spaces unbreakable.
(Oh, this is too funny. My computer just made a funny noise and suddenly the above sentence stretched out vertically. Of all sentences. )
Okay, Lee, I’ll give you Sri Lanka and the clan, but writing a Crapsey Cinquain by accident? Even Punahou School couldn’t have been that good. On the other hand, it is Hawaiian.
quote:
but to get us (me) thinking about things that are important
Like Hawaii.
Okay. I'll stop.
Good point, Yanos. Kathleen? Fortunately, really good writing still covers a multitude of sins.
To save future difficulties though, I've decided instead to never write anything that needs ellipses ever again.
[This message has been edited by Gwalchmai (edited March 07, 2004).]
Holding my cursor over a scrunched up ellipsis doesn't work for me, Gwalchmai. In fact, I'm beginning to feel like a gypsy with a ouija board.
quote:
In text, use only a single word space after all sentence punctuation
I'm not sure whether "sentence punctuation" includes punctuation at the end of the sentence, or if it is intended to mean punctuation within the sentence. If the space after a sentence is supposed to be different, it doesn't mention it.
Note, I often type two spaces after a full stop. I think this is actually a business document writing practice that probably shouldn't be followed for book writing, but it is a hard habit to break once you've acquired it.
Kolona: HTML makes it very difficult to have a double width space, because it runs multiple spaces together unless you specifically tell it not to. You have to use non-breaking spaces (" " -- in case that gets changed into a space, that's an ampersand followed by "nbsp;") if you want more than one.
In a correction to a statement I made above, third-of-em spaces are apparently not the normal space size; the "optimum" space size is apparently a quarter of an em, except in fonts of size 8pt or lower, where it is a third of an em. So now you know...
Oh, and an em might have originally been the width of an M, but it is now apparently the width of a square drawn to the same height as a capital letter from the baseline. You learn something new every day.
) Seriously, though, Jules, you forced me to scrounge through my manuscript formatting resources. Here’s Bill Shunn from http://www.shunn.net/writing/coach/format.html
quote:
Always place two spaces after any sentence-ending punctuation. "Always?" you ask. Always! Some people will tell you that two spaces aren't required these days, especially if you're submitting a manuscript to be typeset directly from a computer disk. Don't listen to these people. Unless you are Harlan Ellison, your editor is actually going to read your manuscript before sending it on to the typesetter, and her eye is accustomed to seeing two spaces at the end of every sentence. Anything else will annoy her, which should bring to mind the cardinal rule of manuscript formatting, as mentioned above.
In addition, put two spaces after every colon: like so. This convention helps the typesetter distinguish more easily between colons and semicolons.
However, with the Oxford quote you offered,
quote:
In text, use only a single word space after all sentence punctuation
I was stumped. I have to admit, this is the first time I’ve ever seen that. ‘All’ certainly should mean ‘all,’ including end punctuation. To me, this is a serious word-count spoiler, though, considering how many spaces would be involved in a novel-length manuscript. So I did some further checking. An informative source is
http://spider.georgetowncollege.edu/t3/wsr/csc120/wp1spa97.htm
According to this Georgetown College site (whether they are any kind of final arbiters, I don’t know), the double space was used when typewriters produced only monospaced fonts because the double space between sentences helped with ease of reading. Once computers introduced proportional fonts, single spaces were sufficient(although I disagree), which is why published material is single-spaced between sentences. This site quotes MLA guidelines as
quote:
“… leave one space after words, commas, semicolons and between dots in ellipsis marks. MLA allows either one or two spaces after periods, question marks, and exclamation points.”
and APA guidelines as
quote:
“… APA guidelines call for one space after all punctuation …”
(My emphasis in both those quotes.)
(Whoa! Why is the American Psychological Association a writing-style guide? I thought APA had something to do with the Associated Press and journalistic writing. What a revelation. )
Anyway, the Georgetown site goes on to set apart Courier and Monaco as monospaced fonts, which, by deduction then, would demand two spaces – even on a computer.
According to
http://www.adobe.com/print/tips/felici20001030/main.html
quote:
So ultimately it’s an issue of aesthetics and readability. The best solution on the typewriter calls for two spaces between sentences, but on typesetting systems, the best solution is just one space.
Unless, we might add, you’re submitting a manuscript for publication in a monospaced font, in which case two spaces between sentences would be advised for editors’ ease of readability, comfortably knowing that any typesetting transfers by a publisher would automatically eliminate the extra spaces anyway.
So,
1.) if Times New Roman is as acceptable a manuscript submission format as is Courier;
2.) if it is too confusing and difficult for writers to constantly switch from single space to double according to the font used (which it would be);
3.) if writers will often type drafts in one font (TNR perhaps) for their own readability while working, and submit in another, probably monospaced font (like Courier), and would have to go back through each manuscript to insert the extra spaces between sentences for readability when they changed fonts;
4.) if the difference between single and double spaces affects word count;
5.) if some of the best sources do not agree on the issue;
6.) if HTML and typesetting maneuvers will change double spaces to single automatically;
then in the interests of common sense and standardization, writers should insert two spaces between sentences. This is, of course, my informed conclusion. You guys (all inclusive ) do what you want.
So that’s what all those weird notations are in e-mails – stillborn double spaces.
I’m not going to touch that em-size stuff, Jules. I’ll take your word for it.
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited March 08, 2004).]
So apparently it sometimes happens in actual publications.
No in a finished book there is only one space, but in a MS--fiction or non-fiction, (newspaper stories etc., may be different)--you use two spaces at the end of a sentence. It goes back to standard ms formatting, you can find sources that will back up anything--but when submitting a ms you should go with industry standard.
Shawn
quote:
According to this Georgetown College site (whether they are any kind of final arbiters, I don’t know), the double space was used when typewriters produced only monospaced fonts because the double space between sentences helped with ease of reading. Once computers introduced proportional fonts, single spaces were sufficient(although I disagree), which is why published material is single-spaced between sentences.
quote:What exactly is he reading? I can't find anything that says that you should still use two spaces for manuscripts.
Everything I've read says that you don't doublespace anymore, EXCEPT for manuscripts.
quote:
Punctuation and Spaces.
The traditional rule, and one especially suited to the monospaced fonts common in typescripts (as opposed to desktop publishing): put one space after a comma or semicolon; put two spaces after a (sentence-ending) period, exclamation point, or question mark. Colons have been known to go either way. For spaces after quotation marks, base your choice on the punctuation inside the quotation. Publishers often (but not always) use standard word spacing between sentences (it's a matter of house style), and it seems to be gaining ground among typists today, perhaps through the influence of desktop publishing. In any case, it's nothing to fret about.
I get a ridiculous amount of mail about this one point — at least one (often heated) message a week, more than on all the other topics in this guide put together. I wish I understood this strange passion. My only advice to those who want to quarrel about it is that your time would be better spent worrying about other things.
Generally, I find it easier to read with two spaces no matter what I'm reading. I've wished for a long time that publishers wouldn't use only one space. I figured it was a paper/cost-saving angle.
It's a lot like that discussion--it looks better so I use Times--etc., mono spaced font is easier to read and edit, the two spaces is the same, easier to read and edit. Your finished ms may have 700 pages, but the printed book will not. Your goal is to make the ms as easy to read as can be--editors and agents appreciate ease of reading, and better to go with what has been a long standing tradition than to PO someone.
And besides it might just give the impression that you have been writing for a long time--and that can't hurt.
Again, the goal here is to format a ms not
make it look like a finished book.
Shawn
we are talking about a MANUSCRIPT not printed material where someone who spends hrs reading everyday--all day.
Mono spaced fonts are also used to determine other things in the production of a book.
sigh
Shawn
In a similar way, you can insert a nonbreaking space (shift-ctrl space). For example, I use nonbreaking spaces in a name such as the spaces in "Mr. Van Gelder."
quote:Like what?
Mono spaced fonts are also used to determine other things in the production of a book.
quote:
1. Because the guidelines say so. If you give editors what they want, they are happier. Happy editors buy manuscripts.
2. A mono-spaced font is easier to edit. The spacing between the letters of a monospaced font is wide enough to let them insert those weird editing marks.
3. A mono-spaced font is often easier to read under difficult conditions, such as while the editor is on the subway, eating lunch, carpooling, at the opera, watching TV, and all the other places editors read submissions.
4. Your manuscript might be photocopied by the publisher and sent to various departments, or faxed to someone. Letters blur, and letter spacing shrinks, during faxing and photocopying. The widely spaced letters and strong, straight lines of Courier survive faxing and photocopying better than proportional fonts with serifs (those "tails" on the letters).
5. Printers estimate the page count of a finished book according to a sacred and ancient magical spell: they take the number of pages in the submitted manuscript, stir in the font and size the publisher wants to use, chant the planned page size and margins three times while turning widdershins ... and violá! They have the page count of the finished book! If you send a manuscript with the font and margins the wizard has used in this spell since his apprenticeship, any wizard worth his keep can predict the finished size of the book within seconds.
The results of the spell are only predictable if all the ingredients are familiar to the wizard. If you send in a manuscript with a font or margins the wizard isn't familiar with, the spell doesn't work unless the wizard makes some tedious adjustments to the other ingredients. This annoys wizards.
[This message has been edited by EricJamesStone (edited March 24, 2004).]
Shawn
It seems to me, though, that the major question is which is more distracting to the editor. I've read lots of stuff that says single spacing after a period is hard to read, and it's annoying, etc, but I haven't heard that at all about the double space.
Is there evidence that editors get frustrated with that infernal extra space, and not buy my manuscript?
If not, I think the conservative approach would be to double space. When in doubt, double space.
If you have a particular reason to be writing MLA, Chicago, or one of the other styles, follow their rules, otherwise, the double space seems a safe bet.
(my .02)
Shawn
Typesetting is done from the manuscript. Typesetters do not read the manuscript the way anyone else reads it--they are looking at it letter by letter and mark by mark. Typesetters do a much better job if they are working from a mono-spaced manuscript because they can see very clearly what each letter and punctuation mark is.
quote:
Had this as a sidenote in another post, but decided it needed its own topic.
It is now the fourth-longest topic in terms of number of messages. Not bad, for something which was almost a sidenote.
The longer ones:
1. New: Introduce Yourself! (136 replies)
http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/000101-3.html
2. Magic: Price or Technology (104 replies)
http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/000951-3.html
3. The Grammar Thread (103 replies)
http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/000427-3.html
So, planning to submit to agents, I entered six pages of editing notes I had accumulated since I sent the manuscript off (There's a thread asking when a book is done. Answer: Never.) and remembered this thread. Thought I'd refresh myself as to whether I could correct the dangling quotation marks -- apparently I can't -- and am debating about the scrunched ellipses. I have gotten several laughs from re-reading this thread, though. There's lots of good stuff here that may be helpful for those brave enough to read through all of it.
However, I've found that while you can create a non-breaking hyphen, you can't create a non-breaking dash, meaning you can avoid breaking up words like "non-breaking" but you cannot avoid ending a line with a mid-sentence dash. Which is not a big problem, really, but I just thought I'd mention it since I was in this thread again. (Although I fully expect someone to show that you can create a non-breaking dash. )
(Why do old threads lose all their symbols and get those funny squares all over?)
Not sure about a non-breaking dash but I agree about the laughs from reading this thread through again. However, in doing so I've been reminded of my vow never to write anything that needed ellipses ever again. Oh well, I think I broke it pretty quick in the end.
I think the weird symbols and things appeared after the site went down a couple of months back. Most of the apostrophes seem to have turned to question marks too.
WHOA! a lot of interesting stuff here. . . .
i'm never going to be the same again!
oh, and kolona: i just checked on ending with a em-dash (two hyphens) where they are the very last character's on a line and the (") follows on a line all by itself... i have a solution. try using ctrl-shift-(-) twice, that enters two non-breaking hyphens, exactly what you are looking for. . . . i think. . . .
But I give up. If editors are used to Courier New, then they're used to lone quotation marks. But thanks for taking a swing at it.
Nonsense, Gwalchmai, you did that whole post without an ellipsis. Congratulations.
quote:
i'm one of those daring souls willing to read the whole thing....i'm never going to be the same again!
Dpatridge, it is a life-changing experience. Now you are truly one of us.
I should have specified that you have to turn off the autocorrect function that changes two hypens to an em-dash. If you use the two non-breaking hyphens instead of an em-dash, you will not get the lone quotation mark. (In other words, you will not be using the em-dash character at all; you will be using two hyphens to indicate an em-dash, which is perfectly acceptable in a manuscript.)
In any case, you should also turn off "smart quotes." Then you never have to worry about whether it's the right kind of quotation mark.
Once "smart quotes" are turned off, if you do a search for all quotation marks and replace them with quotation marks, it will convert all the "smart quotes" to regular quotation marks.
Just so you know.
If I turn off autocorrect, though, what else will that affect?
The main things to switch off for manuscripts are the things in the "replace" section of the "autoformat as you type" tab in my copy of Word 97: smart quotes, superscript ordinals, fraction characters, symbol characters (this is what does the dashes), and hyperlinks. I leave "*bold* and _underline_" switched on, cause it's really handy for typing the occasional italicised word.
On a somewhat related note, I was reading a book yesterday (Heart of the Comet by Gregory Benford and David Brin, a UK Bantam paperback edition) which had an em-dash followed by a quotation mark in which the quotation mark had been moved to the next line. Either this is correct formatting, or the mistake is quite common.
[This message has been edited by Jules (edited November 17, 2004).]
I'm sure there's a fix for it, but I just worked around it by backspacing to erase the last several characters and then re-typing. When the last word and the quotes are in place, I moved the cursor into the right position and inserted the two dashes.
At least I think that's what I did.