Hatrack River Writers Workshop: To Outline or not to Outline... and if yes how?

This is topic To Outline or not to Outline... and if yes how? in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by BudHAHA (Member # 1812) on :

Good evening(or whatever) I am a young writer and I am attempting to write a story. Most of the time I'll just gun it set the pen to paper and go and usually I'll get nowhere. Sometimes I get lucky and I write a good thing but its only a short story. I have a few Ideas that will take much longer than a few short splurged out pages. Ideas that take tact and cunning maybe even planning.(yikes!) I can't function in the gonzo anymore. I need stability.

So heres my question: How do I outline? What the heck do i start with? Do I develop my characters before I write? or do I just wing it and see what they do? Is it a style diffrence? Whats a flap-jack compared to a pancake? A few Ideas or some brainstorming techniques would be helpful.

thank you and I love you all. The BudHAHA

Oh and Hi this is my first Posted Topic. So Hi to you all although I am not sure if this site is close if you know what I mean. If not than go soak your head in an icebucket. Hehe BudHAHA humor. well I guess ill shut up now. thank you guys(if you guys respond to me at all) BUt please dont ignore me. I get enough of that out of my cat. He hates me that bastard and For all the things i do for him! I clean him I Feed him I give him shelter and what do i get in return? A crap on the carpet! HA! Dumb cat.

If you wondering what kind of loser might write about his episodes with his cat while trying to get advice on what you probably think is easy well its me the BudHAHA, the worstest loser of all. Now your probably thinking hes a self pitying compliment seeking jerk. But you dont know me so you wont compliment me because i could be an evil fat guy thats 40 and sits in his dim apartment typing on the nets trying to pick up on 14 year old girls. Well I could be that guy. Please compliment because thats how much of a loser I am.

But now you might be thinking hes just a confused Teenage wierdo who plays DnD with his friends in his fathers garage around tools hes never used and is a level 7 magic man who jerks off to internet porn while popping his pimples across the screen. Well I am not that kind of loser. I am more of an hyprocritical apathetic want to do goood loser type who is totally confused but likes to go crazy. Raging hormones and staying up to late and drugs and tevelevison and college and ex girlfriend(who is a major bitch by the way) and ultimate horror is my only excuse(becaue i couldnt write the rest down.

Dont worry about the BudHAHA though. I am not so confused as to kill myself or go on a kill crazy rampage at my school like some of my other peers have done. I think I am bieng tortured by Nature to live the longest life imaginable and not have the guts to do myself in. My favorite line is from TOMBSTONE Doc Holiday when him and Wyatt Earp are talking and he says Hes angry at the world for bieng born. Well I agree with him.

If you still want to answer my previous questions after this rant then go right ahead. IF not i will not be disapointed.

Thank you.

[This message has been edited by BudHAHA (edited December 02, 2003).]

Posted by Nexus Capacitor (Member # 1694) on :

Sheesh, Bud, when do get time to write?

(I hope you're not related to that FooHAHA guy.)

Anyway, I'm struggling with outlining myself. Mostly, I'm just writing down my ideas haphazardly and hoping I can organize them better later.

I'd like some advice on this topic, too. If anyone out there has any.

Posted by Balthasar (Member # 5399) on :

Damon Knight says that there are four pillars on which every story is built: character, emotion, setting, and situation. These four are interconnected: the character in a given situation feels a certain emotion, and this situation that the character is in presupposes a setting. I have found that if I can answer these four questions, I can write my short story. That's the basics for how I outline my short story.

(By the way, I highly recommend Damon Knight's CREATING SHORT FICTION.)

Since I haven't written a complete novel, I have no idea how to outline a novel. But John Gardner gives some advice that I will surely follow when I begin my first novel:

quote:
When you write your novel, start with a plan -- a careful plot outline, some note to yourself on characters and settings, particular important events, and implications of meaning. In my experience, many young writers hate this step; they'd rather just plunge in. That's OK, up to a point, but soon or later the writer has no choice but to figure out what he's doing. Consider doing for yourself what womive people call a "treatment," a short narrative telling the whole story, introducing all the characters and event but skipping most of the particulars, including dialogue. Carefully studying and revising the treatment until the story has a clear inevitability, you will find yourself understanding the story's implications more fully than you did with just an outline, and you will save yourself time later....
The last step before the actual writing may be the chapter-by-chapter breakdown of the plot. It's here that the writer figures out in detail what information, necessary for understanding later developments, should be worked into Chapter One, what can be slipped into Chatper Three, and so on....
On Becoming a Novelist, p. 140

A few pages later, Gardner points out that if you want to be successful, you must, while you are actually writing the novel, allow for new developments, new characters, new meanings, and perhaps even a new story.

This is only one writer's advice. I know that authors such as Mauriac and Faulkner, as well as Stephen King, never do outlines. Tolkien didn't outline The Lord of the Rings.

In the end, a writer has is one his own and had to figure things out for himself. Personally, I have tried to write a novel before -- six of them, in fact -- and each one failed around page 150. I didn't outline a single one. I will be outlining my seventh. You may have tried outline but were unable to writer you novel, so then you should try writing one without outlining.

Posted by Nick Vend (Member # 1816) on :

I agree with Balthasar/Damon Knight's advice of writing a treatment. I recently finished my first novel which I had begun by simply plunging in after about a year of research. Then, about 60 pages in I had to stop and write a treatment to make sense of everything. In my experience it's definitely the way to go, and though you don't necessarily have to do it before you start, that may be easier.

Posted by BudHAHA (Member # 1812) on :

Thank you for the advice. I'll shall try it out.

Oh and to pronounce my name it is like Budha the guy you know in eastern religion whatever one ummmm budhism thats right. So you say Budha-HA! So its a laughing.

Like this Bood HA HA get it? good. its a fun name. I like it.

Posted by Nick Vend (Member # 1816) on :

Yes, that does seem to roll off the tongue.

Oh yeah, another good outlining thing is character studies. I find that if I'm stuck and I take some time to write about the character, I can understand him/her better, and therefore understand better what must happen with regards to plot.

Posted by Lord Darkstorm (Member # 1610) on :

One thing I have discovered that helps me is to do some thinking about a characters past. Or if the character is young, the parents past. The more you know about your character the easier it is to write about them. Also, knowing the past can sometimes change and improve the plot.

Posted by wetwilly (Member # 1818) on :

I think every writer probably has to find their own way of dealing with organizing a story. I'll tell you the way I usually do it, but everybody's mind works differently, and I think every writer has their own way of making a story come alive. I rarely do any prewriting, per se, I generally do all that stuff in my head. A lot of times I jot down ideas when they're detailed, otherwise I'll forget them by the time I get to the part of the book where they come in to play. Mostly, though, I just plan out the story in my head, then sit down and start writing and see what happens. A lot of my best stuff (in my opinion) is the stuff that comes at the spur of the moment while I'm writing, the stuff that just kind of flows onto the page of its own accord, to put it very pretentiously and melodramatically. The things that really give my stories life, are the ones I didn't plan. I'm still operating within the overall framework of the story I planned, but its not something that came out in my planning stages.

Another thing I've found to improve a story is short stories. I use this method for novels, usually, but I suppose it would also work with shorter works. I'll pull out an event from the bast in my story, or a minor character or something, and write a short story about them. Example: I just finished writing a book centered around a man named Simon. Simon's brother was a relatively minor character in the book. He really had nothing to do with the story except for the emotional attachment that Simon felt towards him. To flesh out the world a little bit, though, I wrote a short story about the brother and some events from earlier in his life. The short story had nothing to do with the book, and it will never appear in anything--it's not good at all, in all honesty--but it helps flesh out the character in my mind, and as a result he came more alive in the book. "Satellite stories" are a great way to flesh out a world and plan relationships and events in a book, at least for me.

My advice: don't pay too much attention to everybody else's advice about whether to outline or not and how to outline. Experiment a little bit and find what helps you bring your story to life.

Posted by umo1171 (Member # 1820) on :

Good Lord! As usual the responses by the writers have way to much writing and not enough clarity!

Here' the deal on outlining. If you have ALREADY proven that you can sit down at blank paper and type, "Chapter 1,"... then 1099 pages of solid story, then realize several factors of your story are of balance and don't connect properly and you are actually OK with the concept that you'll need to start from scratch again....

Then you have no need to outline (And you might be insane too Just a little humor there.)

So...

Outlining allows you to see if a story works, its like a bluprint you can always refer back to as you build you giant monument!

I mean something this simple can tell you by feeling whether its even worth your time or whether you should OUTLINE a totally different story.

EXAMPLE:

1. Boy walks to pond
2. Boy skips stone over water
3. Stone bounces funny of lump that turns out to be head of a dragon.
4. Boy and dragon talk.
5. Boy recommend to the dragon that he should enter the world of professional ice staking.
6. Dragon eats boy.

You can make the outline as vague or as detailed as you want but I like to go really REALLY vague in a first outline, example notice how I used the word boy instead of "Chuck Willhouse, an 8 year old boy..."

All that can be fleshed out later, perhaps giving you time to think about where boy is from, age, height, why he's going to the pond, name of dragon etc.

Not only does this save you heartbreaking work but allows you to set an engaging rythm. I don't care what anyone else tells you creating should be FUN! I mean the wimpy one page outline should be so inspiring to you that it makes you desire to see the thing through to perfection. The outline allows you to fall in love with that story so you can stick to it! And its always there for referencing basic timeline of story like a blueprint!

Definetly try it, use numbers, 1,2,3,4... and keep them raw and basic. You could try outlineing a basic story you already know to get the groove. Like Star Wars or such...

Example:

1. Big spaceship hijacks little one. Bad guys burn down doors board and kidnap princess.
2. Droids escape carrying secret message left by princess.

Best wishes!
UMO

Posted by Narvi (Member # 1376) on :

I can't give you advice on outline per se, because I'm terrible at it, but I do have one important piece of general advice: decide what you care about. Most stories have five elements: the plot, the characters, the setting, the underlying ideas, and the style in which it is told. A story *can* be interested in only one of these, but most good stories do good things with at least three. Any single element, however, is enough to ruin a story if it's done badly enough. Very few authors really care about all five. OSC, for example, generally focuses on characters, has a rich setting, and either uses strong ideas or has a captivating plot. His style is just whatever carries the other elements most effectively. You can use whatever combination you want, but decide which you're doing before you pre-write.

Once you know, there are different excercises which are useful. Shortform summaries (as described upthread) are good for plot-centric stories. For character-centered stories, it's a good idea to trace detailed backstories which probably will never be refered to in your final work. For setting based stories, you should construct the history of your civilizations similarly (while Tolkien didn't write plot outlines for LotR, he did assemble most of the history and legends of the first age before writing it). I can't really suggest a form of pre-writing for idea or style based stories, but I'm sure some exist.

Hope this helps,

Posted by Enders Star (Member # 1578) on :

Welcome BudHAHA, I am of the younger generation, unlike these older people,

. I have to agree that outlining is important and Damon probably proposes the easiest understanding of outlining and what to outline. Let me give you an example.
I am working on this novel, the basic plot line: A boy joins the military to escape his family, becomes a good soldier, recruited for a special soldier project, find love and so on and so forth. My own original of something like Heinlein's Starship Troopers. ANYWAYS, when I was writing my first chapter I discovered I was embarking on something very big. So I stopped writing, actually I threw away everything written. I took out a binder, filled it with paper and started planning. I planned names for planets, people, I planned a whole new culture, a new government, much like communism, a planet terrain, about 6 different alien/human races, a new military, a time line of over almost 400 years, and a whole binder of other things, not to mention I always see something to fit in. Why? Because I love to do it. I love to do it so much that as I have planned I have found changes to my actual plot line. It's incredible once I started, I couldn't stop. I haven't even begun the plot line remix! I have written my first chapter 3 or 4 times, and have read each one and was unsatisfied. I'm a perfectionist it seems. So what. Outlining is important. Plan character names, attributes; plan time and plot line. Novels require a developing plot, while you won't see much need for that in short stories.

[This message has been edited by Enders Star (edited December 08, 2003).]

Posted by umo1171 (Member # 1820) on :

Enders star! Way to go! Yeah I could have added to the outline thing the idea of FULL character bio's.

Some of the stuff that has come to me when I start with this list of preset questions makes for not only some awesome and throrough chracters, but within their bio other elements can be brought to the story as well.

Cool!

UMO

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

Either you are an outliner or you are not. I have done both, in classes I was forced to do outlines for stories because I had an instructor that believed you HAD to outline. He couldn't see any other way to write and had no understanding of those who write without doing so.

For me, once I have written the last chapter--the story is done. It is counterproductive for me to know how the story will end in anything more than general terms. Very simple terms--think it out any further than that and the story comes out very very flat and wooden.

How do we do it, we no outline kinda people--no idea. We sit in chair and type. I suspect that maybe in that huge ocean of those who start a novel but never finish, there are a lot of non-outlines.

The most important thing is to get to "THE END." So whatever way you do it--get there then go back and edit.

As to first chapters--many many a first chapter went in the circular file.

Shawn

Posted by Enders Star (Member # 1578) on :

Shawn proves a valid point. I think it was OSC who said when you start to write you need to figure out where you are going. You need to get a broad generalization where you want to end. I feel, beginning is important but knowing where to end is more important. You can always feel in the gap later. However Shawn is correct still, we all have different ways to write, I just try to get an idea where I want to end before I start writing.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Yes, outline!

But from there, it's all up in the air. I just think that as a basic tool you have to have an idea of where the story is going. A detailed outline is not necessary. I find it impossible to follow anyway, because the story takes on a life of its own as soon as I start writing. But ALWAYS, always, always I have some general notes.

The parts I feel are essential are:
1. the ending (Actually, I have from time to time had a choice of two endings and that seems to work ok, but both endings are worked out and until I have to choose everything I write could end up working with either ending.)
2. several pivoltal scenes (These are the smaller goals, they help you not feel so overwhelmeed when there is a lot of room to get from start to finish.)
3. good characterization (Even with nothing else, a strong character can live the story as you write it. You know what they would do next because you know what kind of person they are.)

I usually try to do a little more up front, but like I said I almost never stick to it. But these 3 things I feel are esential or the novel will probably fail. (Oh yeah, I don't do any outlining for short stories. They just go where they will because I'm perfectly willing to rewrite a short story if I change my mind at the end.)

Posted by umo1171 (Member # 1820) on :

Yes, I MUST add to Christine's thoughts, about basic outlines!!!

BASIC! I see some of these how to outline articles on the web and in books and OH MY GOD no wonder people are scared to do outlines!

I think the BEST outlines are ones where you almost entirely avoid using adjectives! And no wild numbering 1. a. b. c. forget that...

No indents...

No complex plotting subplotting just as quickly as your mind can flow. Use regular english numbers.

1.
2.
3.

And try like heck to avoid adjectives, that is for an expanded outline or treatment.

Here is my recommended example.

1. Boy plays with dog.
2. Boy chases dog down alley.
3. The suprise
4. Boy wakes tied at kidnappers house.

....

Okay now look at #1 there. That can literraly be an entire chapter. Who's the boy, age, height, ethnicity, where do he and his dog live, what about the dog, hobbies of the boy, boy's dad does? etc. etc. etc.

This allows you to get at more of that cool stuff that just flows when you write but you keep yourself from wasting precious time, rewriting countless pages trying to make story lines meet up properly.

You already did that in your super Q&D wimpy Story Outline.

Happiness
-UMO