Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Criticism . . . really that hated?

This is topic Criticism . . . really that hated? in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Falken224 on :

I just need to clarify something.

Am I really the only person I know that likes criticism? I hear people talk all the time about dreading the criticism of their work, of arguing with the person who has provided that criticism, of feeling hurt or rejected when they don't get praise for what they've written.

Is this honesly a problem for people? I don't think I've ever experienced it. I love criticism. Well, that may be taking it a bit far, but it's what makes me write. I love hearing somebody say "I don't like this, this and this, and this rubbed me the wrong way, and HUH? right there." It's a challenge to me. I get that determination, that motivation to get it right this time. It's nice, because even if my reader doesn't know WHY they didn't like my story, I can often illicit the right information to help ME know why. And then I can fix it.

The most frustrating part for ME, is my severe lack of good critics. I have a hard time producing enough work to be in a writing group, and people who aren't invested in the process . . . well . . . aren't invested in it, and I get a "oh, that was good" or worse. And the quality critics I DO have can only give me feedback on any part of the story one time.

So am I truly wierd? Or do other people have this problem too?

-Nate

[This message has been edited by Falken224 (edited October 28, 2003).]

Posted by Lord Darkstorm (Member # 1610) on :

Criticism can be very helpful, and unfortunately, irritating. Without it, anyone can go on believing that their writing is the greatest there ever was. It is needed to learn, and even more so when someone hasn't got a clue.

Fortunately, I have a clue (if only a small one), and I like good criticism. Even with a writing group you don't always get good criticism, and sometimes (and I have been guilty of this once or twice) the response is short and brief, not the detailed workup of what you found. That is when the generalizations start. But overall generalizations are better than nothing.

For me the hardest thing is not to try and justify what I did. I know that if the story doesn't give the meaning I intended it is my fault, and I can't explain "why" to a reader outside the story. It still takes some effort to accept that a story I have worked very hard to write has flaws. So I have to remind myself with each review that it is good for my story and my writing.

It is better than the sympathetic "it's good" from people who want to be nice and not tell you it sucks.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Let's take a minute to explain the difference between CRICISM and CRITIQUE. I do not like cricism, and I would challenge anyone who says they do. As for critique, when it's good, I absolutely love it. I think what you mean is that you like good critique. This is constructive feedback about a piece, both positive and negative (although usually more negative) that helps a writer become a better writer. Cricism is a hurtful, useless, tear down of something with no thought whatsoever to improving but rather to explaining how this sucks.

That said, I love good critique, the trouble is, I have no idea where to find it. I've tried a small group that was so not on a level with me writing wise that their critique was useless. I have given my work to non-writers and gotten better feedback. (My father has actually turned out to be pretty good at this when he gets around to reading my stuff. )

When I am forced (due to lack of resources) to accept critique from anyone who will give it to me I am wary. I won't say I don't like it, because there is still purpose to it, but I find myself having to wade through all the uesless, confusing, pet peavish (is that a real word?) comments to get to the real meat of what could be improved. With novices I end up using MAYBE 50% of their comments as written, and perhaps 10-20 percent in another form because they did not know exactly what they meant.

That's my take on criqiue.

Posted by Hildy9595 (Member # 1489) on :

I'm with Christine in valuing a critique, but not having time for blind criticism. Just telling me, "I didn't like it" is useless; but letting me know "This didn't work for me because X, maybe Y would work better?" is a blessing.

I am fortunate enough to be in a crit group with Darrell Schweitzer, editor of Weird Tales and author of countless short stories. He can rip anything of mine to shreds and I'll thank him and ask for more, please, because the man knows of what he speaks!

Posted by GZ (Member # 1374) on :

I always enjoy a good dose of constructive criticism on my writing. I may not always agree with that whatever the person has to say, but usually, if they are commenting on it, something for that reader isn’t working. This is important to know (especially if several people agree). Since it’s their opinion, it’s true for them in their experience of the piece (I would hope!), and whether I agree or not is irrelevant. Something in the piece isn’t working and I should at least consider why.

Most comments I get that are at all specific, from writers and nonwriters alike, have been useful. I can’t stand the unspecific comments. They tell you nothing you couldn’t guess before the test reader got a hold of it. Frustrating. Very Frustrating. Possibly more frustrating than no comment at all.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I don't know if I enjoy criticism all that much. I do know that I want good criticism. Even silly things like spelling and grammer are important, if I consistently make certain errors (particularly ones that machines don't catch, like 'lying' instead of 'laying'). Of course I prefer criticism on how my writing works as a whole, which is where it becomes difficult.

Most people aren't very careful readers, I've found. I can never really tell a sympathetic "it's good" from a genuine "it's good", as both are spelled and pronounced much the same.

Posted by Falken224 on :

quote:
I can never really tell a sympathetic "it's good" from a genuine "it's good", as both are spelled and pronounced much the same.

ROFLMAO!

Dude, that ruled!

Seriously, though . . .

I must agree that what I am speaking of is critique and not criticism. I have learned to filter blind criticism. The trick is to remember one simple truth . . .

. . . people are stupid. If they're blindly criticizing you, they're stupid and you're better than they are anyway.

Okay, maybe that's not the most constructive attitude either, but it works for me on the bad days as well as the good.

Actually, the best advice I've gotten for soliciting constructive criticism was from OSC himself at boot camp. (WELL worth the money if y'all can afford it. DANG! That was an intense few days.) Get people to underline certain passages and mark in the margins the applicable one of the 3 grunts . . .

1. Huh? (I don't understand)
2. Riiiiiiight. (okay, so he called it 'Oh yeah!' but the point is 'I don't believe what I just read')
3. YAWN! (a.k.a. 'So what?' Meaning 'I don't care about this. I'm bored here.')

I've had a couple people do this for me and it truly gives some GREAT feedback. They don't have to try to guess what's wrong, that's your job. They just note their own reactions to the story. ANYBODY, writer or not can do that, and they don't even have to be rocket scientists. It's your job to interpret the grunts. And believe me, it's easier than it might seem.

My only problem is finding people who

1) enjoy reading
2) want to read my stuff
3) have time

My wife would be a great candidate except she hates reading (even though she loves stories) and she's not overly fond of the stuff I write . . . says it's too dark for her taste. *shrug* No accounting for taste, eh?

But hey, I'll find people somewhere . . . once I've written something. *smacks self on head* If only I made more time. No more computer games. BAD Nate . . . very VERY BAD Nate.

-Nate

Posted by Brinestone (Member # 747) on :

Nate, I'm also sorely in need of some good, harsh criticism (yeah, I mean it). I need to get my rear in gear with my writing. I feel like I've gotten as good as I can by myself and need someone else to point out what I can do better. Do you want to become one another's wise readers? Email me at brinestone@hotmail.com if you do, and use a very clear subject line so I don't think you're junk mail.

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

The grunts is great--many times a person is annoyed at someone suggestions because it is there voice not yours.

When an editor makes a suggestion--IE you've sold the story or you have and agent and they make a suggestion you often get the grunts, but wish you got the more specific do it this way. But when you do you have to take notice.

I'm lucky in that the crit group I am currently with, mostly the same people over the last two years, has gotten to know what to look for in my work, and we get a new member every so often to add a new voice and set of eyes.

Shawn