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"Appropriate and medium in stature, quick in movement and unafraid of hardship, China astronauts are clearly superior."

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The Chinese have admitted that their true plan is to establish a moon colony (I knew this was their true plan all along). They have not yet admitted that the way they plan to do this is by simply sending taikonauts up there with no way of getting back until after the base is finished, but I expect that sooner or later we'll be able to see the pattern for ourselves. And of course they are now getting ready to initiate their manned space program by sending up some of those fearless and fairly expendable taikonauts.

So, as Science Fiction writers, do we wish them the best of luck and start changing all our moonbase terms to Chinese? Or should we, loyal and patriotic Americans all, hope that those clever lads didn't really steal all the space technology we pretty well know they did? Or should we be gambling that the next election brings in a Democrat with a true vision of space exploration (do any of the Democrats even talk about space these days?)?
 

I do hope our next president has a clearer vision for space exploration, though I don't think party affiliation will matter...Clinton started cutting space programs long before Bush got into office.
 

The media hates Bush's guts, he's short, the war ended far too quickly for Americans to get a sense of it as a victory, the economic recovery is slow, and the Democrats are actually trying to select a photogenic candidate this time.

Bush is toast. His actual performance has been pretty good, so there will not be any serious Republican alternative. Therefore the next president will be a Democrat (barring something extraordinary--like the Second Coming).
 

Then, Wes Clark entered the race, and about two days into it he actually announced that he wanted to see time travel developed! http://www.startribune.com/stories/587/4145657.html has the story.

I would say the odds of either Democrat or Republican administrations actually pushing for a moon base are really, really low given budget restraints. And, for what it's worth, it was a Democrat who originally put us into space.
 

20 soldiers are injured every day there. And they are not small boo boos. I know, my hubby knows--he recently came home from Iraq. He was a medic over there.

One U.S. soldier is killed every other day. Killed. 15 per month

Over--Victory??? In whose book??

Sorry, I feel very strongly about this--there are 130,000 people over there yet. 4th ID will not be coming home until April--a full year. Wives and husbands here are buying body armor for their soldiers because budget cuts have not allowed all soldiers to have the best and most protective.

Oh and that leave that was so hyped up? It was canceled.

1st CAV leaves in Jan for "a year or more."

I'm at Ft Hood---where most the soldiers are from. I know what my hubby saw, I know what sort of carnage went under his hands. I barely know the man who came home.

Victory?

ROFLMAO

Shawn
 

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited October 15, 2003).]
 

A new president will not fix our space program. How could a democrat who wants to support every "underprivileged" person in the country afford a space program. Clinton didn't even want a military, and did his best to reduce it to complete ineffectiveness. If we want a space program it will funded and operated by a commercial company, and there are several companies that have projects looking to out do NASA.

The president can try and get more money for things, but look what is happening when he requested more money for Iraq? A political struggle breaks out from day one. America has problems, and until we can fix the problems on the ground, space is not an issue.

So let China continue discovering new things about space that we will no doubt end up with ourselves. And this time we don't have to pay the bill.

 

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America has problems, and until we can fix the problems on the ground, space is not an issue.

So let China continue discovering new things about space that we will no doubt end up with ourselves. And this time we don't have to pay the bill.

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Although I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, LordD, this seems to imply that China has it all sewn up and in order on the ground. If anyone should be able to chew gum and set up on the moon, it should be us. Otherwise, there's more than one way to pay a bill, and some are unpleasant. "Shine on, communist moon" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

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Yes, let's pack up and go home and wait till we can fight the terrorists on our own soil.

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If anyone should be able to chew gum and set up on the moon, it should be us.

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I think LordD's point was more that America can spend its money on helping its people and let China fritter away it's cash on Space.

Personally, I say let China go. America seems less than interested in Space at the moment, so why not let someone else have a crack at it?

JK
 

Do you think the setback is permanent? Does NASA need to completely change their "business as usual" approach before more ambitious projects like a moon base are attempted?

Discuss.
 

I am refraining from putting my political views here in full because it could take all day. Not to mention take the thread way off topic.

My point is that "we" as Americans have certain beliefs that govern our society. In China they have a very different society that can easily determine the value of a human life as very small. If 100,000 people die in China's attempt to colonize the moon it will have no impact on the government there. Yes we will criticize them, and call them evil, but it will not stop them from doing it their way.

So do we have any chance of competing with them? No. We have too many problems with the way we handle ourselves right now. When very few people in our government actually care about us, just our vote, we have a problem. NASA is a waste and spends more time covering their buts than trying to find new ways of traveling in space.

So as much as I would like to go visit Mars personally, I don't believe I am going to hold my breath. As long as someone on this planet is moving towards advancing the human race in space I can be happy with that. I do like the fact that China is footing the bill because at this point I'm tired of footing the bill of the government spending now, and the democrats want more.

I predict China will make many mistakes, and loose a lot of people. I do believe they will eventually succeed. But instead of looking at it as a loss for America, I think it will be a gain for the human race.

 

First, if China does succeed in colonizing the moon you better believe popular opinion in the U.S. will go back to spending money on space exploration. The main reason we pushed ahead in the first place was Sputnik, if you recall, popular opinion was not with the space program then either.

Second, it's a shame that people don't understand how much money the space program makes in the long run. I was going to post earlier but could not find the figures I read a few years ago that claimed NASA makes seven times what is put into it back to the government. I still can't find them. But the books don't look right, it's not straight forward. The money comes from new technologies, new discoveries, a stronger economy, and more tax dollars being skimmed off all the sales and incomes therein. Anyway, if anyone know shwaat I'm talking about I'd really like a reference.

But mostly, go for it, China! Move the human race forward and give us stupid Americans a big smack in the face! Maybe we'll even wake up.
 

We could have saved many more American lives if we never entered World War II, but no one says it would have been better to leave Hitler in power.

As much as our enemies and our own media would like to paint us as the aggressors, remember that we didn't make Iraq attack Kuwait nor did we make Iraq expel the UN Inspectors.

The UN's job was to give Iraq a chance to clean up their act, so there would be no further need for war. For some reason, Iraq's government didn't cooperate. So, the war was back on.

Anyway, back to the taikonauts...

If China is serious and can get someone to the moon, it will the best thing that ever happened to the American space program.

There is no way that the US government will allow the communist Chinese to build a moon base first. Watch how fast it becomes a priority after the first sucessful Chinese moon landing.

So, I agree. Go China! Because you'll re-energize our space program too.
 

Kudos to Christing for pointing out that space exploration is an excellent way to make a heck of a lot of money (this, by the way, is what the Chinese claim as their sole motive--despite the fact that space technology comes out of their military budget).

The Chinese are planning to send unmanned "probes" at first, I don't think that they'll actually start sending people until they have enough equipment on the ground to realistically just leave the Taikonauts up there. That follows the pattern they've displayed with this launch, they had the technical ability to do it nearly a decade ago (if they didn't mind a certain risk of killing the guy). Instead they waited until sending a guy up was actually necessary to the next step. I don't think that safety was the sole concern here, I think they want to avoid hitting milestones before they really need to hit them.

Meaning by the time the American public figures it out, China will be way ahead of our game. And they'll have the rest of Asia sewed up in their bag if we don't do something.
 

But, if the Chinese do start making progress, we'll have to get on the stick to stay ahead.

Okay. My curiousity has got the best of me...

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My only point in bringing up the "war" is that it is going to cost Bush the election...

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Survivor, do you consider yourself a Republican, Democrat or other? (I hope I'm not offending you. Don't answer if you don't want to.)

To be fair, I'll go first... I consider myself a moderate Libertarian.

In my opinion, I think Bush has the next election in the bag. I don't think the average American wants to leave Iraq unfinished. All of Bush's most likely opponents want to pull out.
 

I don't think anyone can be real concerned when the average democrat has trouble naming more than one or two of the canidates.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a better system for getting into space. The controlled explosion they use now is still so inefficient, not to mention the high risk of dying in the process. That would be worth the money. It's a shame I can't specify on my tax forms where I would like my money to go. I am all for spending on needed items like the military and space. We don't put enough money into research and too much into support programs that create dependance on the govt.

[This message has been edited by Lord Darkstorm (edited October 15, 2003).]
 

The Space Shuttle is a piece of crap, we could do so much better if we just were willing to spend the money, or use obvious and mature technologies that we've had since before the Shuttle. I think that the nuclear powered ramjet-rocket hybrid is a perfect candidate, and we've had those for 30 years now...but we can't show them on TV or the eco-lefties will cry

Fortunately for the Chinese, they don't show their launches on TV, and they know exactly what to do with eco-lefties (unfortunately, they do the same thing or worse to nearly everyone in the country--so I'm not impressed with the moral discretion they display). Fortunately for the rest of us, I don't think they concentrated particularly hard on the nuk-rockets, but it isn't like they lack the capability (I think the rest of the world may have signed some idiot treaty or other forbidding the nuc-rockets, but either China hasn't signed or they don't intend to comply--at least not where we aren't looking).
 

And forget the Chinese military.

If space travel is to have a viable future, it must be in private hands.

http://www.xprize.org/

(Actually, although I support the idea of the X-Prize, in the long run I think reaction-mass vehicles are a dead end for significant access to space.)
 

Speaking of Artemis, their magazine (which is very good, by the way, and edited by Ian Randall Strock of Asimov fame) is always looking for new fiction related to traveling to/living on the moon. So if folks are feeling stimulated by this thread, put on your writer's caps and cobble something together!
 

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But on Tuesday evening as many as five countries had indicated they were likely to abstain. Several abstentions would have clouded what otherwise represented a triumphant moment for the United States and Britain, sponsors of the resolution, along with Spain and Cameroon.

The dynamic shifted overnight, diplomats said on Wednesday, when China agreed to support the measure, and its diplomats began calling their counterparts on the Security Council seeking to bridge the final impasse, which left the United States, Britain and Spain refusing to include in the resolution any timetable for a transfer of power to the Iraqis, while Russia, France and Germany were insisting on just such a timetable.
--N.Y.Times

"What the hell happened?"
--The Sand Pebbles

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