This is topic Damn you, Tolkien!!!* in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.


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Posted by cvgurau (Member # 1345) on :
 
* It just sounds funny to me :P

Is it too Tolkien-esque to put elves and dwarves and centaurs and stuff in a story? I mean, he did it so well, it's hard to imagine doing it better, or as good, even.

Chris

PS--I know he never wrote about centaurs, but still...
 


Posted by kwsni (Member # 970) on :
 
I say if the story's driving you crazy, write it. you're not going to write Tolkien's stories, you're going to write yours. There were elves and dwarves before Tolkien, he just took them out of fairy tales, and put them in an epic.

I have a story on the back burner now about a pregnant centaur and a telepath, and if I read a book tomorrow that's about a centaur and a telepath, that's not gonna stop me from writing MY story, as soon as I find a plot for it.

Ni!
 


Posted by loggrad98 (Member # 1724) on :
 
A good example of these types of characters used by another successful author is the Narnia series....and it is not at ALL tolkien-esque.

[This message has been edited by loggrad98 (edited August 27, 2003).]
 


Posted by Goober (Member # 506) on :
 
Just try to put your own spin on the races etc. and you should be fine. Tolkien's races and culture and all that is so ingrained in the fantasy writing world that it almost doesnt matter if you borrow many of the ideas.

I mean, look at Terry Brooks.
 


Posted by Nexus Capacitor (Member # 1694) on :
 
Personally, every time I read about another Dwarf with an axe and a beard, I have to make a quick trip to the vomitorium. If he's also gruff, but has a heart of gold and a soft spot for children, I have to go twice.

But, that's just a pet peeve of mine. I don't think that should stop you from writing the story. After all, R. A. Salvatore and Tracy Hickman seem to sell a lot of books. So, the readers are out there.
 


Posted by pooka (Member # 1738) on :
 
Not to mention J.K. Rowling. Kwsni, that sounds the the opener for a really interesting joke. A pregnant centaur and a telepath walk into a bar...
 
Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
 
A pregnant centaur and a telepath walk into a bar.

The bartender says, "What can I get for you?"

The telepath says, "I'd like a martini."

The bartender turns to the centaur and says, "And for you?"

The centaur turns her head toward the telepath, who concentrates for a moment and then says, "She's pregnant, so she doesn't want anything alcoholic. Can you make a virgin margarita?"

The bartender says, "Sure." Then, with a puzzled frown, he asks, "She didn't say anything. How did you know what she wants?"

"I'm a telepath."

"Oh." The bartender lowers his voice, and says, "I thought centaurs could talk."

"They can talk. It's just that she needs to rest her voice, because she's getting a little hoarse."
 


Posted by Nexus Capacitor (Member # 1694) on :
 
LOL
 
Posted by punahougirl84 (Member # 1731) on :
 
HaHaHa...slapping knee, reigning in guffaw...
 
Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :
 
Borrowing from someone:

An elf, a centaur and a dwarf walked into a bar and the bartender says, "What is this, a joke?"
 


Posted by Goober (Member # 506) on :
 
Wow, thats a pretty long an awkward joke...

I think it could be re-written a bit to make it a little faster. But I dont feel like doing so right now.

Its still funny as heck though, I must add.

[This message has been edited by Goober (edited September 10, 2003).]
 


Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
 
I think that they were both just the right length for "walk into a bar" jokes.
 
Posted by kwsni (Member # 970) on :
 
Hehehe, that's great.
The funny thing is, my story will probably be a modern fantasy, so they COULD walk into a bar.
I may have to use that, or at least make reference to it, now.

Ni!
 


Posted by rjzeller (Member # 1906) on :
 
This is an old thread but I can't resist:

Two guys walk into a bar.

The third guy ducks.
 


Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
 
Ahh...one of those threads I overlooked because I was busily planning a wedding.

Now that I've seen it, I must sya...


quote:
I mean, look at Terry Brooks

I'm sorry...but are you serious? Terry Brooks is the biggest Tokien wannabe of them all! His shanara series is full of cliches and tired plots spun out for the zillionth time. He is the epitome of what drives me nuts about the fantasy genre because the fantasy quest has been done, and done, and done....
 


Posted by wetwilly (Member # 1818) on :
 
Yes, ma'am. The Shannara books sucked. And I read "Magic Kingdom For Sale: Sold" (I think that's what it's called) on recommendation from a friend, and it sucked too, but not quite as bad.
 
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
 
Okay, okay.

You know, there are those that dismiss all fantasy and SF writing as derivative trash. Actually, there are those that dismiss any story that isn't essentially a poor copy of Notes from Underground with an existentialist twist as being derivative trash.

I think the point was that Terry Brooks has succeeded despite being pretty cliche. I read one of his books and enjoyed it. I didn't feel inspired to read all (or really any) of his others, true, but we're writers, not drug dealers
 


Posted by wetwilly (Member # 1818) on :
 
Point taken. Obviously Terry did something right that I haven't managed to do yet.
 
Posted by Goober (Member # 506) on :
 
quote:
Terry Brooks is the biggest Tokien wannabe of them all!

Yeah, I know. Thats what I meant. He downright abuses the Tolkien world, and gets away with it. I'm merely using him as an example of "hey, you can write a successful fantasy series that feels a bit like Tolkien at times". Brooks is just an extreme example. But at least he proves that there is still money to be made in fantasy beyond Tolien.

For a better example, check out the loved and loathed Robert Jordan books (Wheel of Time). Another very Tolkienesque series that has found its place in the market.
 


Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
 
Ahhh...point taken about Brooks, I misunderstood.

At the risk of getting into another Jordan bashing/loving/hating/adoring session....I disagree that Jordan is a tokien wannabe. Actually, I find that he finally did something unique with the story; unique enough that I have come to love his world. (Even if I absolutely refuse to buy another book until he's done.) First of all, his world is devoid of elves and dwarves, which is a big cliche he does not copy. His Ogier are interesting and new. He has also taken us on an epic that has grown to such complexity that it feels very real....the depth and vastness of the lands and characters is a step beyond what had been done before. (And honestly, those who have tried to copy him since have not done such a good job.)

Actually, Jordan is an example of an author that many accuse of being Tokienesque (sp?) when he isn't. This is probably why cvgurau asked his question....if Jordan is considered Tokenesque because his world is set in pre-modern times, then how can he put a new spin on the idea?

To me, to be Tokenesque, a stoy needs to do the following:
1. Be set in a pre-modern time. (You know the time period I mean, but I refuse to call it Medieval cuz it ain't. )
2. Center around a naive main character who loses much of that naivety by the end.
3. Involve a hero's quest.
4. Include a world with races of elves and dwarves.

Actually, by this reasoning, jordan's first few books are *almost* Tokienesque, missing only the last criterion, but they lose it when they go beyond the hero's guest model in book 3. They then turn into something else.


 


Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
 
I forgot one...

5. Good and evil.
 


Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :
 
the punch line is GROWING a little horse. Not getting a little hoarse--

At least that's how I heard it before--you know preg and growing a little horse--play on words hoarse and horse?

Shawn
 


Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
 
Well, for the joke about a pregnant centaur and a telepath, the punchline is "getting a little hoarse."

Do you deny that she will be getting a little horse?

How do I know that's the correct punchline to the joke about a pregnant centaur and a telepath?

Because I made the joke up, that's how. In this very topic.

Don't believe me? Do a Google search for: +"pregnant centaur" +telepath
and see what you come up with.

[This message has been edited by EricJamesStone (edited June 20, 2004).]
 


Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
 
I will admit, Shawn, that "growing" probably makes a better punchline. But it's not the original punchline to this particular joke.
 
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
 
You have to admit, it is a particularly appropo joke for EJS to just happen to have heard before.
 
Posted by muogin (Member # 1963) on :
 
Yes good lord, a few people touched on this but the whole I mean WHOLE middle earth thing is actually almost a retelling of Nordic and early european tales that used to be put to song.

There is a whole article at NationalGeographic.com or there was anyways.

I mean elves, dragons, knights, have been the premise of CENTURIES old stories long before JRRT, even though I think he is awesome.

One of my favorite spins on the whole knight things was George Lucas's Jedi Knights, what a unique path to take the whole knight concept down!

Now of course whenever I mention GL or Star Wars please excuse anything beyond SW,TESB,and ROTJ, I do not acknowledge the other ones.

Best,
Muogin
 


Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :
 
Huh, I wonder how many times someone has written a story about humans? Well the first story ever written was totally about humans. (plus God)

Oh yea and the real joke is:
Two guys walk into the bar, the bartender says "Hey I just washed that!"
 


Posted by JK (Member # 654) on :
 
Ugh. Bless Prof Tolkien for giving us the material for the films and all, but damn him too. I'm so sick of hearing fantasy novels and the like being trashed because they involve elves, dwarves, quests and evil. Hello, welcome to mythology! People other than JRR-bloody-Tolkien are allowed to have a bash too, you know?

Sorry. This subject appears to aggravate me.

I say go for it, write the story. True, people should try to do something new, but if they want to do a mythology, they shouldn't let He Who Shall Not Be Named Anymore and his legions of thralls stop them.

JK
 




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