Hatrack River Writers Workshop: How Much to Sell for a Sale

This is topic How Much to Sell for a Sale in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

quote:
Sheesh, what we authors won't do to sell our books. I feel like I am giving everything away....

Shawn, I'm borrowing your excerpt here, and although I know the last part of it referred to specific story points, let me redirect it.

I read an article in ByLine magazine by Beth Fowler about TOR Books which said:

quote:
"TOR likes to buy as many rights as possible because we have sister companies all over the world whom we sell or license rights to."

The gal from TOR quoted, Anna Genoese, went on to say TOR has an e-text company, an audio company, various foreign affiliations, and that though they publish mass-market paperbacks they wanted hardcover and trade paperback rights, too.

At what point is an author "giving everything away?" Yes, I know having an agent helps, and I know a new author is not in a great bargaining position, but how much is too much to give away?

I suppose what got my dander up a bit was reading in Frederick Levy's Hollywood 101 that the author of an "Original story" made into a movie earns $19,917 - $32,980 (1999 figures), while the screenwriter who does the "Non-original screenplay," earns $24,036 - $49,464.

I believe OSC had an article not too long ago about the paltry amount writers get in Hollywood, but I didn't think it was as paltry as the above numbers. Surely there are royalties, too??? The fact that the original author is low man on the totem pole is a cruel cut of the pie. Yes, I know the system is the system, but I'm .

Or, at the least, I'm not too happy.

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited July 16, 2003).]

Posted by Doc Brown (Member # 1118) on :

Kolona, there's more to life than money.

If I write a story that gets made into a movie seen by millions I will have made an impact on American culture. I'd be pretty happy with that, even if I got neither money nor credit.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 1563) on :

quote:
At what point is an author "giving everything away?" Yes, I know having an agent helps, and I know a new author is not in a great bargaining position, but how much is too much to give away?

The key phrase here is "give...away." You don't give anything away (unless it is as a personal favor). When in business--and if you're selling a story or novel, you are in business--you sell the rights. Don't forget it.

The question then becomes are you selling the rights for too little? I think that is when a good agent comes in. He can tell you when Tor is offering a fair price for the foreign rights (which can make as much, or even more, than the domestic rights).

Bottom line, if you are signing something that asks for more than First American rights, get advice. Lots of advice.

quote:
Kolona, there's more to life than money.

True, Doc, and no one (but a few dillusional fools who quickly learn better) starts writing fiction for the money. Unless you get really, really lucky or are really, really, really good, you won't make a fortune on your stories. But, if you are going to sell your writing, you might as well get as much as you can, or at least as much as you are entitled to!

In the immortal words of Henny Youngman: "If they offer you fame or money, take the money!"

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Kolona, there aren't any royalties in the movie business unless they're written into the contract, and usually the writer isn't included in any kind of percentage arrangement anyway.

If I remember correctly, the author of the book on which a very popular movie was based had a contract that said he'd get a certain percent of the profit, but because of the way they do their accounting in the movie business, that movie had no official "profit." So he got zip.

Writers do get a pretty raw deal in the movie business, compared to some of the other people. The way to beat the system is to know if very, very well, and then make sure your contract actually gets you what you think it's getting you.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

As for the publishing business, instead of selling the other rights (the ones the publisher is not actually going to be using to produce your book), it's worth it to try to have the contract say that the publisher will represent the author in the sale of the rights, and the author will receive some percentage of the rights when sold--a percentage to aim for might be 50 percent.

If the publisher is going to use more than just the book rights, the contract should say how much the publisher is paying for the other rights, and not include their payment in the book rights payment but be listed separately.

Another thing a contract ought to have is a reversion clause that arranges for the rights to revert back to the author after a certain period of time (or after the work has gone out of print--which can be tricky to pin the publisher down on--time period is better).

There should also be some kind of "sunset" clause which reverts the rights to the author if the publisher doesn't end up using them by a certain date.

If you can get things like that into the contract, you will have much better control over your work. An agent who can get that kind of stuff for you is an agent worth keeping.

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

Doc, you mean if you wrote a story that made millions as a film, and you got neither money nor credit for it while producers, directors, screenwriters, actors, grips, costumers, etc., did, and the screenwriter made almost $50,000 (double what you would have gotten if you had allowed yourself to get paid) or even six figures (see below), that you would be content having made an impact on culture? I mean, you'd be content even if you didn't at least get credit for it? I hardly think you feel that way about your job. And writing is no less a business.

I've written op-eds for free and an article for money. Getting paid is better.

Andrew, I know an author isn't completely giving away his work, but there's a point where he may as well -- as in Kathleen's example.

Kathleen, I'm still reading Hollywood 101. The figures I mentioned earlier are minimums from a Guild/Union Minimum Payment list, and I've come across this in the text: "A percentage of any profit, after expenses ... is contractually paid to ... participants such as the actors, writer, director, and producer." Now I know he's not talking about the original writer, but the screenplay writer. In fact, he says the "average script sale is generally a six-figure deal."

That's what bugs me the most. Someone can take an author's work, grind it down into a 120-page script, and get paid substantially more than the original author -- and get royalties on top of that while the original writer doesn't.

Go figure. Literally.

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited July 16, 2003).]

Posted by Doc Brown (Member # 1118) on :

Kolona said:

quote:
I mean, you'd be content even if you didn't at least get credit for it? I hardly think you feel that way about your job. And writing is no less a business.

I didn't say I'd be content. I said I'd be pretty happy. The difference between writing a blockbuster movie and my job is that the movie becomes a part the culture. I want to be paid for the words I write, but suppose you offer me the choice between writing a short story for money or ghost writing the next hit movie from Stephen Spielberg for no money.

I'd write the movie in a heartbeat.

It would bother me that I got neither pay nor credit, but I'd be so happy with the chance to write something that millions of people would see that I'd do it anyway.

The truth is that the makers of movies, the publishers of books, and the distributors of music are the gatekeepers of American culture. They determine what we will see and experience and what we will not. I want to breach that gate. I'd prefer to get money and credit in the process, but if I had to give up those things I would.

[This message has been edited by Doc Brown (edited July 20, 2003).]

Posted by James Maxey (Member # 1335) on :

One benefit for the author is that while he may not make any money from a movie based on his original work, he will still be getting royalties based on all the additional copies that work will sell due to the publicity it will recieve from the movie. Also, he'll have more clout in selling future works. He's not totally screwed.

--James Maxey

Posted by Rahl22 (Member # 1411) on :

James, that's what I was thinking. For instance, the movie "The Hours" bumped Virginia Woolf's "Mrs. Dalloway" back on the bestseller list.

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

If you are a writer, take a screen writing course. If your book sells as a screen play you will have a leg to stand on in demanding you are allowed to write the script.

Wild Child has an interview coming up with a writer who did just that is is making big bucks.

It got me to thinking hey, maybe I should take a screen writing class. As soon as this rewrite is done that is what I intend to do.

Shawn

Posted by Bene_Gesserit (Member # 1675) on :

I see that many writers on this website are glad to receive $7 to have their work published in a magazine. I know personally authors whose work is published and they pay to receive a copy of the anthology it is seen in.

A poet friend of mine figures the good money she made for her published book divided by the hours (in years) she spent writing it and learning her craft earned her about 2 cents an hour.

Somehow the receipt of $19,917, $32,980, $24,036 or $49,464 for one's work looks good.

But, I consider myself to have been advised by this thread of conversation.

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

Yes, writers are often glad to get even mere copies as payment in order to be published in a magazine or wink at getting an actual two cents per hour for their book once they figure in labor. But once published, that work would receive a separate payment attached to a subsequent movie rights purchase -- assuming the author retained the movie rights in the original sale. If the rights stayed with the publisher (as TOR prefers, so let's use them), the writer got only what TOR paid in the original contract agreement, and TOR is free to bargain with MGM or whoever apart from the writer. (If I'm wrong about this, someone stop me.

)

As I write this, I wonder how the numbers compare when a movie entity buys movie rights directly from a writer as opposed to buying them from a publisher. I'll guess there's some inequity there, too.

Now one may argue that a short story garnering an extra $20,000--$33,000 to add to its original $7 sale price is pretty sweet, and maybe it is, and another may argue happiness at impacting culture with or without significant remuneration or even credit, but let's add insult to injury. What if the movie script is a bastardized version of your story that flies in the face of your values and impacts culture in direct opposition to the way you had hoped to do?

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited July 21, 2003).]

Posted by Alias (Member # 1645) on :

What can I expect by submitting a science fantasy novel I have co-authored, to a publisher without having previously been published. I do not have an agent and I don't see myself in much of a position to haggle for rights, though I intend to. The only thing going for me is the quality and content of the book itself.

Anyone have any comments or suggestions? I'm sure others of you have found yourselves in similar positions.

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

Alias, if you get an offer from a publisher without an agent, immediately get an agent. With an offer in hand, it should be easy. I understand they'll even take a phone call from you at that point.

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

What to expect? A lot of rejections. There are many who will not even read your stuff without an agent, others who simply have no interest in an unkown---and even when the product is good---you can still expect rejection after rejection.

It is hard.

It hurts.

You want to give up.

The only way to make it is to not give up. I chose to go with an agent--and every day I wonder if I could have sold the thing without. Then I would not be paying 20% to an agent. But, he knows where to market my book, he is helping me wiht editing to make it a good seller--and he is looking at the future. I had an e-book deal in the works--he said NO-- ect.

Either way--it's a long haul and you will come out the other side scraped, burnt, in pain and if you stick to it, triumphant. And that is what makes it worth it.

Remember, though, even then you are not done--good writing is rewritten.

Shawn

Posted by Alias (Member # 1645) on :

Thanks. I appreciate the advice about the agent. And yeah I expect a lot of rejections, but I'd prefer not to think about them too much. It's a hard but wonderful life as a writer.