Hatrack River Writers Workshop: What is Fantasy?

This is topic What is Fantasy? in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Since it was brought up on another thread, I suppose I'll just start a new one and get a discussion going.

What is fantasy? What is Science Fiction?
There are all kinds of sources to bring into a discussion like this. We could talk about publishing guidelines, reader's impressions, what OSC says in his book. (How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy)

What I'm really interested, though, is to go beyond these questions a little bit. To me, Science Fiction is defined as: Things that could happen but, to our knowledge, they have not. (This includes aliens on another planet, speculative futures, new technologies...) To me, Fantasy is defined as: Anything that probably can't happen ever.

The basic point is that Science Fiction and Fantasy are genres limited only by our imaginations. They overlap, but the difference isn't the key to my concern. The key is, in genres where absolutely ANYTHING can happen, why does so little actually occur? Why can't we escape the box? Why do fantasies seem to always include elves and trees and horses and swords?

Any thoughts?

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

My latest novel is described by my agent as being fantasy--no elves ect--none.

Science Fiction is nuts and bolts--scientific explanations for things, based on current science.

Fantasy is magic---things happening that are fantastic, but don’t have any science behind them.

At least that’s what I have been taught.

Shawn

Posted by GZ (Member # 1374) on :

quote:
Why do fantasies seem to always include elves and trees and horses and swords?

Ignoring the "always" for a minute, here’s a theory.

Fantasy has its roots in myth and legend, the stories of the unexplained. Such stories come from our past, a period much given to swords and horses. Elves are unexplained, and (disregarding the Tolkein tradition) are much given to wee-folk, fairies, and the like. Trees harken back to a more pre-industrial, again more historic period of the Western European tradition.

I think the popularity of Tolkein is the other, overwhelming, issue. There does seem to be an obsession with the Tolkeinesque.

Perhaps the fantasy of tomorrow will be filled with quaint versions of automobiles, and odd urban myths.

Oh wait, those are out there already. Enter such work as Stephen King, and Charles de Lint. Movies like Star Wars, which bears closer resemblance to heroic myth than science, regardless of the story’s venue.

There is, thank goodness, fantasy with narry an elf in sight. The range of fantasy is pretty wide out there, when you start scanning the shelves.

Posted by Narvi (Member # 1376) on :

This is all my opinion, but I'm sure someone out there agrees with me....

Science Fiction is based around an idea. (It can be a set of ideas, too, but we'll just call that set one.) From that idea, through a series of what-ifs, is built the world, the characters, the plot, and whatever else is central to the story. The idea must be internally consistant, and it must be interesting. The reader should be able to understand it, even if it isn't spelled out.

Fantasy is about a world. The world needs to hold together emotionally, but doesn't need to be 100% understandable or consistant. Fantasy often derives from mythology (or Tolkien), hence the elves.

If people who expect to die get high-resolution EEGs and transfer their minds into a computer system, that's science fiction. If some people come back as ghosts for no apparent reason, that's fantasy. If this species (possibly humans) is half-energy and under specific circumstances, the energy fields seperate from the body in death and continue to think and act, this is science fiction, but only if the energy field is something intelligently and consistantly defined.

That's my definition, anyway. Hope it's clear!

Posted by teddyrux (Member # 1595) on :

Most Sci-Fi stories have a futuristic theme to them, and most Fantasy stories have a myth and legend theme. The primary reason for this is the origins of the genres. Scf-Fi got it's start with futuristic science oriented stories, and Fantasy got it's start with mythical stories featuring Elves. I'd prefer more Fantasy without Elves. It seems to me that when someone puts Elves, and Dwarves and Halflings in their world, that they're not being creative. They're copying Tolkien and Brooks. I know Brooks copied Tolkien for his Shanara series and there have been counless clones since then.

quote:
The key is, in genres where absolutely ANYTHING can happen, why does so little actually occur?

In the introduction to "The Writer's Complete Fantasy Reference", Terry Brooks writes:

quote:
Lester used to say that it was harder to write fantasy than ony other form of fiction. Why? Because a writer of fantasy is free to invent anything, unfettered by the laws and dictates of this world and limited only by the depth of imagination and willingness to dream.

He goes on to say that precisely because we can do anything is the reason that we shouldn't and don't. Those of us who do, don't get published because our world is not believable.

Robert
"You can relive the memories. You can't relive the moment."

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

My opinion is probably already posted somewhere in the following threads:

What makes fantasy....fantasy?
Where is fantasy based?
Realism vs Fantasy
Fantasy Worlds
Surnames in Fantasy
mystics?
Examples of Fantasy NOT set in feudal times?
and, to reward all of you that have read all the other relevent threads,
A Sex Question

Posted by James Maxey (Member # 1335) on :

I will admit that my own foul attitude about "fantasy" literature comes from my personal reading experiences and tastes. There is no way to objectively state that fantasy is a moribund genre.

Through my teens, the fantasy that most interested me was epic fantasy. I particularly loved Conan stories. I also appreciated the more humorous fantasy works fo Terry Pratchett and Piers Anthony. As my tastes matured, I couldn't help but notice, though, that Piers Anthony was cranking out a new Xanth novel about once a week, and the writing really seemed to be showing about a weeks worth of editing in each book. This sort of opened my eyes to the reality of that very, very few of the fantasy novels I was reading had even the faintest sliver of originality to them. Just as former smokers sometimes become the loudest and most obnoxious voices against smoking, I swung from a person who voraciously read fantasy novels to a person who loudly doubted that it was even possible to write a good fantasy novel. (I made an exception for Terry Pratchett. I'll take humor in any genre.)

During the late eighties and early nineties, the "dark fantasy" or horror subgenre really seemed to take off. It started off showing some initial signs of originality and inspiration, but soon devolved into an endless string of vampire novels. At one point, one of the small local bookstores when I lived in Richmond actually had a separate section for vampire novels.

I imagine there are some good fantasy novels out there. But when I go into bookstores and browse through the fantasy section, I see: 1: Elves 2: Teenage wizards 3: Vampires. All of these are obviously successful fantasy subgenres with legions of fans, and all have important, well written original works that set these genres in motion.

So, there may be great fantasy novels on the shelves right now that I'm not finding because I don't want to dig through dragons, teen-agers, and the undead. I ask you, fellow readers, are there great fantasy books not in the above subgenres that I should be seeking out?

Having asked the question, I will offer one answer, to show that I'm aware that such a thing is possible: Watership Down by Richard Adams.

--James Maxe

Posted by Khyber (Member # 1651) on :

One thing about science fiction is that it often deals with issues in our society today; it makes predictions about how they'll be solved.

Posted by Balthasar (Member # 5399) on :

quote:
So, there may be great fantasy novels on the shelves right now that I'm not finding because I don't want to dig through dragons, teen-agers, and the undead. I ask you, fellow readers, are there great fantasy books not in the above subgenres that I should be seeking out?

It's been a long time, and I've only read the first three installments (so I don't know how the thing has progressed), but I remember being very impressed with Stephen King's The Dark Tower series.

[This message has been edited by Balthasar (edited June 21, 2003).]