sorry to post two new topics but they're completely unrelated.
This is about sexual eunuchs, just in case anybody doesn't want to read it.
I've been looking around on the internet and have found very little that describes the psychological situation of eunuchs. I'm wondering about it because I'm thinking about making my main character a eunuch. He's part of an order that is infinitely dedicated to a certain cause and they've taken as many steps as they can to keep themselves from being distracted. I'm wondering if I should even put this part into the story. I'm also thinking that I might want him to be castrated for another reason.
If castration decreases testosterone and that is one of the main hormones involved in anger/uncontrolled rage I might want to have him be a eunuch in addition to the sexual consequences. He's a trained killer but he also feels very strongly about his cause, and at the same time loves (in a basic human brotherly kind of way) every person he kills. I don't want him to rage and so I'm wondering if anybody could help me find concrete psychological examples of Eunuchs. Also, if he's castrated after puberty will his voice remain deep and his body structure manly?
Uberslacker
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
Well, if he's castrated after puberty, he technically wouldn't be a eunuch. In fact, while he would tend not to go bald and would gain weight, there wouldn't be much noticable effect otherwise...including sexual function assuming that he was already sexually mature and there was no damage to the penis itself. You don't actually need testicles to get an erection once sexual maturity is reached.
Psychologically...it really depends on how he feels about being a eunuch. Your adrenal glands aren't in your testes, after all. He can get angry and aroused and everything pretty normally. I presume that the fact of being a eunuch might cause performance anxiety strong enough to prevent sex...but it wouldn't do so necessarily.
If the operation is performed before puberty really sets in, he'll be a classic eunuch.
Posted by uberslacker2 (Member # 1397) on :
No, I mean the whole thing. He is not going to have sex. That's one of the two main points he had/may have it done. The other is to decrease machoism. What I'm asking is, will he not get into angry rages over "guy stuff." I want him to be a cold blooded person, very rational. Yet at the same time I want him to have compassion that is definitely not sex related. Would total castration work (I saw some people who say that's the only real way).
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Posted by Penboy_np (Member # 1615) on :
I would say that for this, whole castration, pre-puberty would be the way to go. The drawback would be that due to the smaller amount of testosterone, he would likely have a higher, less terror-fying voice and need to work harder to gain alot of muscel mass.
*chuckles* I can see it now. The hero enters the room and with a high pitched squeak he demands silence.
I think this is an interesting concept to play with, you've got the brain juices flowing. Now I'll never fall asleep.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
You don't need testicles to get angry, testosterone is more of a developmental hormone. It helps build muscle mass and increase metabolism, but it isn't directly involved in making you angry, at least not normally. It doesn't even regulate sex drive that directly. The sexual arousal process doesn't require testosterone at all. Only the development needs it.
As for "total" castration, your talking about leaving him to pee in a bag? Since removal of the penis along with the testes also involves removal of the urinary sphincter, that would be an unavoidable side effect. And the penis doesn't do anything to regulate emotions. I don't see how that gets you where you want to go.
If he's going to be totally celibate, and exercise self discipline with respect to violent behavior as well, there is plenty of precedent for that. Many eastern monastics do what you describe without any need for castration.
Posted by JK (Member # 654) on :
To say that testosterone is related to anger isn't accurate anyway. Recent tests have shown that testosterone is actually responsible for care and affection from fathers to their children, whereas lack of the same compels both fathers and mothers to kill their offspring.
Just so you know *grin*
JK
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
Well, I would quibble with the word "compels" unless you showed me some definative and reputable research to that effect, but point taken.
Posted by JK (Member # 654) on :
Okay, so "compels" isn't the right word.
Picky picky picky... *grin*
JK
Posted by Fahrion Kryptov (Member # 1544) on :
I would have to argue that testosterone does affect anger/emotions but that it is not the only driving force behind it. Often anger springs from a completely rational and 'unemotional' base. A prepubescent eunuch could be angered.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
Yes, testosterone affects anger and emotions, but not as directly as some other hormones. If you inject a guy with testosterone, he won't suddenly become angry. Instead, continued exposure causes changes in the neural development of embryos and children, and changes in the glands and so forth of adults, and those changes cause increased aggression and so forth.
Testosterone doesn't directly affect the nervous system, it is a developmental hormone.
Posted by uberslacker2 (Member # 1397) on :
As for sex drive what I've read is that men who've been castrated feel their libido go down the drain, in some cases even lower than their partner's. What about a post-pubescent castration (which I'm fairly sure it would be)? I'm not trying to make his anger become extinct. Rather, I'm trying to decrease the occurances and severity of rage. I don't mind if he's angry just as long as he can still think. Is this possible? As for peeing a bag....that almost makes me a little sad. I knew a girl once that could pee standing up (not like we do mind you but standing up all the same). In turn the viewpoint character (disputably the main) is a chick so it wouldn't be like he'd be the only one squating. I know I seem pretty locked in, I guess I've just gotten to the point where I'm maybe looking for validation more than anything else. Feel free to bring up anything I haven't thought of yet.
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Posted by Phanto (Member # 1619) on :
uberslacker2 the moment you let your compassion for the character effect you, well, it goes down the drain. And think of men, not all have horrible temper tantrums for no reasons. It varies.
Specificly, the obvious physical effects of testosteron work as such.
Stage 1: In womb the baby would be female until a wave of tes. changes into male. Stage 2: At puberty obvious changes.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
When I say "pee into a bag" I mean that he would need a catheter inserted into the remaining length of the urethra back into the bladder so that urine would drain into a container rather than constantly dribbling down his leg. Urination would no longer be a voluntary function because when you remove the penis you also remove the muscle that controls urine flow.
It wouldn't be a matter of him "sqatting" to pee, he would constantly dribble urine...all the time, whether he wanted to or not.
I'm sure that many men that are castrated feel their libido go down...the same is true of most men that are told they are infertile (whether or not it is true). It is predominantly a psychological effect. Testosterone is not involved in getting angry either, it is a developmental hormone. Your testicles don't pump out extra testosterone when you get angry or anything like that.
We cannot validate you because your preconceptions about what would be the effect of castrating a man are just plain wrong.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 1619) on :
To whom are you adressing your statement, Survivor?
Posted by writerPTL (Member # 895) on :
Why is it that no one else finds this topic disturbing?
Posted by Phanto (Member # 1619) on :
I can only speak for me, but I am here to learn how to write. If you are too timid to think about to describe realistic situations like having sex (and no, you don't describe the actual physical actions) than you are hurting your writing.
This writer wants to hear what we think about eunuchs so we tell him how we would approach it.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
I thought we were addressing the science behind castration...oh well.
uberslacker2 said,
quote:I know I seem pretty locked in, I guess I've just gotten to the point where I'm maybe looking for validation more than anything else.
I was just pointing out that we all think that if he introduces this into his story, it will probably be bad science.
On the other hand...psychology is a funny thing. As I mentioned before, just being told he can never have children is likely to cause some changes in a man's sexuality. It might be interesting to give your hero a slightly more magical "castration", like a tattoo or brand of some kind on the penis or scrotum (Yeow!). Getting away from the idea that it is the physiological lack of testosterone that gives him his unique qualities will avoid turning off more knowledgeable readers, without sacrificing any of the primal symbolism of sacrificing his sexuality to be a more potent warrior.
Posted by uberslacker2 (Member # 1397) on :
I was doing research and I learned about some of the eunuch's practices (and the operation in ancient times). They did use cathriters and I learned that libido does go down but it's a very gradual process. Eventually the body produces a fraction of the amount of testosterone which causes subtle changes in personality.
In answer to PTL, it's a technical question and the second line of the post warned about the content.
Uberslacker
[This message has been edited by uberslacker2 (edited April 12, 2003).]
Posted by writerPTL (Member # 895) on :
I should have clarified. I don't care that you're talking about testicles. . . But when a murderer kills someone with an arm, you don't cut off the arm . . . I just think that mutilating yourself because you can't control yourself is an awful solution.