If there's one thing I've learned recently it's the need for third-party feedback. You folks did great with "Chronicles of Empire" - I heartily accept the criticisms presented.

I'm now working on "Emperor", a sci-fi written in a different style - concise, sharp, and punchy. Or, at least, that's my aim, anyway.

Kolona gave me great feedback on the "Fragments and Feedback" board, and Silligurl in private e-mail - indicating where there was bad use of technical English, redundancy, etc. I can rewrite to that.

My conundrum is this - if most MSS are rejected on writing quality first, I have to make sure mine is good. I'm looking for a source to give similar feedback on the first 20k words of "Emperor" - then the rest of the novel - so my weak areas are highlighted for re-writing.

Thing is - is this what an editor does, or is an editor expected to do the rewriting as well? I'm not looking for the latter.

And if an editor is required, as some folks here have experience of the writing world, can anyone recommend either specific named editors , or else persons/organisations to avoid? [I've just read on a SFWA article to avoid all connected with "Edit Link"].

I cannot allow my own errors to hold me back - but I freely admit that I haven't got a clue with the technicalities of language. This in itself is a weakness I find incredibly hard to even begin to tackle.

Thanks -

Brian

[This message has been edited by Chronicles_of_Empire (edited July 06, 2002).]
 

There is list of whole technical sources in the article link below:
“How Do I Learn to Write?” http://www.sfwa.org/writing/biblio.htm

I know the ones that are often and highly recommended in the United States are:

The Chicago Manual of Style, University of Chicago
The Elements of Style, Strunk & White

Given the variances, there might be better ones suited to British English.

 

There are many things that only practice and the reading of other’s successful work, and having a serious group of critiques, can teach you.

For story mechanics, you need a good grammar guide that is easy to understand—the best I have found: Grammar for Dummies. It is very easy to understand and to apply.

Apply to join a crit group here, and give it time. I went through three. The last ended after a year, as per the rules. We are still together, but at our own site now.

As to the editor question—an editor does not re-write your work. You are responsible to do re-writes. Once you have an agent, or a publisher, they will edit your work. Please don’t fall for the “you need a book doctor” gig. While there are several out there that are worth the money---your best bet is to wait till you’ve sold the book and then you get editorial services for free. I do free lance editing. What does that mean? Well, when a company, agency, or publisher needs an extra editor they hire someone—not the author. Though I have done, and do query letters—even some selling ones. LOL

Look up proofreaders marks---you manuscript will be filled with them. Also, you will find many suggestions to improve the work. For example--- The wizardd crouched down next to the building, wearing purple. Your editor would put a slash through the extra d in wizard and circle the words wearing purple, then she would write “refers to the building.” You would be expected to know the proofreader’s marks. You should gather from the slashed d that you spelled wizard wrong. From the circled wearing purple and the attached remark you should know that your sentence construct indicates the building is wearing purple and not the wizard. You will be expected to re-word the sentence.

Sometimes if I see the same sort of mistake being made again and again I will take the time to explain why the sentence construct is incorrect and I will make a suggested correction. Do not expect this as the norm.

So, do the very best you can. If you do decide a book doctor is the way to go---do some research ask to speak to some of their clients ect. And most of all remember---no independent editor can guarantee you will make a sale. If they tell you that pass them up and go on.

Shawn

[This message has been edited by srhowen (edited July 06, 2002).]
 

Sounds like srhowen knows what he's talking about, and he sounds like he's putting a human face on the editing business. (I'd be curious as to how you get on a publisher's list to copy edit.)

However,

quote:

---

uggh. I say this in relation to the two suggested texts. I have both, have read both, have had to study both---they do that to English majors you know. Both are obscure and apply more to non-fiction than to fiction. In fiction you often have your characters using grammar “B”.

---

wouldn't it be more accurate to say that although characters talk using "B" grammar, the stuff between their dialogue needs to be in "A" grammar? Sure, with exceptions as per JK,

quote:

---

I often have to corrupt my grammer to make the words flow better.

---

but you can't break the rules if you don't know what they are. Poetic license implies a knowledge of what you're corrupting.

You mean there's another secret area here, aside from the intriguingly active "Literary Boot Camp"?

 

The links are:
http://www.hatrack.com/writers/writers/index.shtml (explanation of how groups work)
http://www.hatrack.com/writers/writers/how-to-join.shtml (How to join one and link to form)

 

You already have a solid foundation to build your novel on. I think that was clear from my nits to you... In all honesty, if it had been pure crap, I wouldn't have read as much as I did! Now you're just strengthening your prose and applying polish. While technique books will help you with the foundation, they are not necessarily going to help you apply polish to your work. And for most technique books, that's not even what they're designed to do.

From what I read of your work, you should focus on the polish. The tightening of your narrative. And I would suggest that as opposed to trying Grammar for Dummies (which may be great), you re-read novels that you truly enjoy but with an analytical writer's eye rather than as a fan. Go back through those favorite novels of yours-- the ones that are so dogged ear of from years of rereading. Try some new authors that write similar to your style. I heartily recommend George RR Martin and Sean Russell if you're leaning towards epic fantasies. But read them not for enjoyment, but to seriously consider their technique. What works, what doesn't, and why.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Hope it helps.

Another good source is agent’s web sites. I have found on many sites that agents post their pet peeves, as far as why they reject something. A word of help.

Shawn

 

That's the only problm I have with it, but it's a BIG one. There is no guarantee that agents can write worth crap, and I'd be more than willing to bet that most of them can't.

[This message has been edited by Falken224 (edited July 15, 2002).]
 

Their job is to sell your writing. They make money by selling your writing. And many offer in house editing.

An agent may not be a writer though many are and have published works themselves, but they most certianly know what sinks a manuscript.

And you might be surprised on what they have to say in their ways to improve your manuscript.

I'll take help from any source on the other side of the golden door.

Shawn
 

As long as they're making money from selling your writing . . .

Good point. I just worry that some people who are too desperate to get published might take any advice without thinking about how good it might be.

But you do have a good point . . . especially if the agent in question is one you already trust.

And now that I think about it, if they're giving away their advice for free on their website . . . well, they've already got a better track record than a LOT of other agents.

Pardon my complete 180 between posts.

-Nate
 

Shawn
 

quote:

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I saw somewhere (I don't remember where ) that if you post your work onto a website, it is considered to be a first publishing... unless it is posted to a critical writers forum. Does this forum meet that requirement?

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Actually, even if you post something to a critical writers forum you are using your first electronic publication rights.

When you sell a story to a publisher, you are not actually selling the story. You are selling the right to be the first one to publish the story to that publisher.

Nowadays, publishers want you to include the right to be the first one to publish the story electronically as well as in hard copy print when you sell them publication rights.

If you are the first one to publish your story electronically, then you can't sell the publisher that right, and the publisher will not be as interested in paying you for the right to publish the story first in hard copy (publishers want it all and will take as much as they can possibly get for their money).

If you post your complete story in a critical writers forum where anyone in the world can enter and read your story, then you have published your story electronically.

If you email your story to the three to five other people in your Hatrack group, then you have not published it electronically, you have just shared it with a very small number of people.

If you post the first 13 lines (the first manuscript page) of your story here, and people email you asking to see the rest of it, and you email it to those few, then you have not published your story electronically.

Do you see the difference?

We don't want you to use up your first electronic rights at Hatrack--we don't have room for people to post complete stories, anyway. So that's why we say post only the first 13 lines (first manuscript page).

Maybe I should start a Frequently Asked Questions topic and we can refer people who keep asking this to that topic.
 

[This message has been edited by pam (edited August 07, 2002).]
 

It all comes down to numbers. If you publish a story in a small press publication that has a circulation of 100 readers, you may be able to talk a big publisher into paying more than what they'd pay for reprint rights, but not likely.

If 100 people have the password to the story, then that's very likely to be equivalent to small press publication as far as big name publishers are concerned.

They're not likely to give you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their money.

I'd strongly recommend that you take the route Shawn did most recently in the Fragments and Feedback section, and offer to email the story to those who are willing to give feedback on it instead of posting it at a password-protected site.

Pam, thanks for editing your post so that you spelled my name right. (There's someone out there publishing under the name of Kathryn Woodbury, and I am not she.)