Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Wise Readers

This is topic Wise Readers in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by tamalynn (Member # 1304) on :

What is the best way to get impartial critisism on your work? Do you think that friends (or family) have the capacity to be objective?

Frankly, I have qualms about showing my work/fragments to anyone who knows me too well because I've the feeling that:

a)They will blunt the truth if something sucks or

b)They will use my writing to psychoanalyze me, or think they can assume things about me based on what they can infer (though perhaps this one is unavoidable).

What do you guys think? Are online groups the best way to go?

Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 1198) on :

Have you read OSC's Characters and Viewpoint? (or were you at his Writing Workshop last year?) The use of the term "wise reader" triggered my curiousity.

If not, from the book and the workshop, OSC made it somewhat apparent that you sometimes need to train your readers. You need to get them to look at certain things, and make sure they are able to give you useful criticism (other than "well, this isn't really what I normally read, but I'm sure it's great!" <shudder> )

He lists three questions that readers ask, "Oh yeah?" "So what?" and "Huh?"... wise readers who are familiar with these questions can give better criticism just by marking where in the text they find themselves asking these questions. When they hit a point of disbelief, or uncaring, or confusion, you've somehow lost the reader - and those points need to be addressed.

Try explaining that to your wise readers beforehand, and ask that they limit their initial comments to those questions. It can really help clear up a lot of problems in stories.

Posted by Kokomo (Member # 1210) on :

And family members are definitely NOT the ones you should ask to be Wise Readers. With the exception of Kristine Card and other understanding spouses, family is too close to you personally.

Some will praise everything you do, withholding any criticism because they don't want to discourage you. Some will read into your stories more than was intended, and get upset. Some will indeed psychoanalyze you, mistaking characters for your own personality.

I have found my best Wise Readers among fellow writers. Which means no one in my family.

Posted by tamalynn (Member # 1304) on :

I *have* read OSC's "Character and Viewpoint," and hence lifted the term "wise reader". (I've never attended his Writer's Workshop, though I would almost kill for an opportunity to do so. Distance problem, to put it mildly...<sighs> Maybe it's for the best. I'd be awe-struck and babbling...)

I guess that I forgot the bit about the Wise Reader training. So are you saying that, given enough time, *anyone* could do it?

Posted by SiliGurl (Member # 922) on :

You're rolling the nice on having friends/family read your work objectively. For myself, my 'friends' always love it-- and while kudos are nice, they fail to provide the feedback necessary to let me really hone my writing. No matter how good your work is, there's room for improvement, and many of your friends won't be able to provide that level of indepth feedback. With that said, my husband provides great feedback. He can't go into the indepth grammar, structure, etc aspects of my writing, but he will absolutely tell me what sucks and what's strong, what makes sense and what doesn't. He's a great reader in that he provides a Reader's feedback, as opposed to the different kind of feedback you'll get from a writer.

If you're looking for brutal honesty with a dash of courtesy, there are numerous writer's groups you can try. I'm involved with the Del Rey writer's group. There is a fee involved, but you can try it for a month free and see how you like it. Of course, reviews may be hit an miss-- sometimes you'll get a lot (ie, 5+) and other times only 1 or 2. I've just joined another group (Critter's Corner, I think that's the name) but haven't done anything yet with them to recommend them or not.

Also, if you've got something that you're looking for a review on, I'll be more than happy to take a look at it. All you'll get is my opinion, but I will give you some honest impressions of the piece. Just email me if interested.

Good luck.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Anyone willing to learn how, that is.

The advantage of having impartial strangers look at your work is that editors and agents, as well as the readers out there, are also impartial strangers.

Of course, editors and agents may be more experienced than someone in a writing group, but the vast body of readers out there who pay for a story are not necessarily that experienced.

Aspiring writers at least have some idea of what writing involves, but they can also be tempted to give you suggestions on how they would write your story (something that can be useful if you can learn how to use it, but otherwise can also be distracting and confusing).

You want someone who reads a lot to be your Wise Reader, someone who is willing to learn how to read wisely and give the kind of feedback that will help you the most to know how readers (your consumers, after all) will respond to what you've written.

Posted by tamalynn (Member # 1304) on :

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Kokomo. Unfortunate experience had already taught me that it's hard to get objective crits from family. (Not helped by the fact that my stories already have a tendency to go dark on me.)

Psychoanalysis, coming from anyone, may be unavoidable. Since writers have to draw on their own experience of the world, and shape experience into story, what you write and how you approach things will tell people something about you, either way.

I guess that fellow writer's would tend to give the best crits, because they'd take writing as seriously as you do...

Must stop procrastinating and get back to work...

Posted by uberslacker2 (Member # 1397) on :

I find that for me if I actually get really close to somebody its a big plus for them if they can give me an honest critique. My girlfriend is one of those few people. For some strange reason all of my friends seem to always tell me I'm an awesome writer and say they love my work. Whether I'm really that good or they're just saying that has yet to be decided. My girlfriend still says I'm an awesome writer but she also gives me an honest critique. I think this quote pretty much sums up what a "wise reader" should be able to do (and the little tid-bit I'm adding). I let her read a short story of mine and here's what she said:

"For anybody else I know this would be completely awesome. For you it sucks." She then proceeded to cover the ten-page manuscript with what I honestly believe was more than one pen worth of red ink. Her grammar isn't perfect (it takes both of us to write decent grammar) but she can tell me where the story is weak and that's what I think a wise reader needs to be able to do, grammar isn't really important. That's the job of you (and for us lazy people, the editor). Just as long as your reader can look you in the eyes and say, "this sucks, change it. Now, Here's why it sucks..." then they've done their job.

A wise reader can be someone that you don't know at all and your only contact with them can be through your writing, or it can be someone incredibly close to you. The chances of getting someone like this are just as good either way.

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

My spouse said, "There should be a rule that writers never ask their mate to read their work."

That was 4 years ago when I started serious fiction. He now reads my stuff but refrains from comment. Most of the time.

My mother reads more of it than he does and she always likes the story. Even the dark stuff---so no I don't think family can gove you and objective opinion. Unless they are reading just for copy mistakes, thent hey can help.

Shawn

Posted by JP Carney (Member # 894) on :

Interesting, because my wife, pop, and closest friends read my stuff, and I think I generally get very valid crits from them. My wife is my "everyperson", and will come up with comments and questions I expect 80% of my readers will to (in addition she's an editor, so the technical side is her bailiwick). My musician friend and my pop are the best for "getting it" or suggesting missing pieces or new angles. They're creativity is a huge plus to feed off of, and the fact that they're close to me doesn't interfere in the slightest. I'd simply say look around, near or detatched, and ask lots of people, see what sort of feedback you get and how useful it is. I wouldn't worry too much about "nice" un-crits or psychoanalysis. When my wife reads some of my dark stuff she just laughs and shakes her head, wonders where it comes from, and sends me off back to my writing. <grin>

Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 1198) on :

There is, though, always the danger of your readers getting to accustomed to your writing. They start to forgive small mistakes, because, having read so much of your work, they "know what you were getting at." That's bad news.

I still let my parents and sister read my stories, but I take most of their comments with a grain of salt. Finding fresh wise readers is the biggest challenge.

Posted by uberslacker2 (Member # 1397) on :

I agree with JP. It's the same way with me and my girlfriend, she'll read something evil I wrote about some sick minded character and say, "I'm glad you're not like that." (Nevermind the fact that a week later she'll tease me about being evil and dark and sinister, because that's not the point) I've only had her critique one of my stories and she just about covered the page in red ink, some saying "nice" and the like others saying "this sucks" to one degree or another. I didn't know they put that much ink in one pen.

The Great Uberslacker

P.S. sorry this is such a repeat...I didn't know my first post submitted

[This message has been edited by uberslacker2 (edited April 14, 2002).]

Posted by sherisaid (Member # 1410) on :

My family doesn't read my work, with the occasional exception of one brother (if he wasn't so frenetically busy with 2 jobs, 3 kids and school, he'd read it all) Why? because he's the only person in my life who appreciates my mind. My other brothers, as near as I can tell, are from another planet (but not the same one as my husband, a rabid mundane and sports obsessive, is from). My father thinks I am largely useless (I assume he's still stuck on 13 year old me from 30 years ago, immature, over-emotional, irresponsible...er, puberty's over, dad) and my children (12 and 13) are not readers like I was. My daughter asked to read one of my stories and I picked one with no sex (didn't have many to choose from) but she didn't get it, and never asked to read another. But then, she likes chick flicks, not LOTR. oy. Where do these people come from???

Once, I left a story out and my husband read it. It was a gritty story of a man's descent into alcoholism and madness after his wife leaves him. It's told as an internal monologue, as he's thinking over the past in order to justify to himself the reasons he's just killed his ex-wife, 2 kids, and the neighbor fixing the sink. There is no blood or violence in the story, it's all implied. It was a damn good yarn. My husband thought it was about him. He got pissed. "Is this what you think I am?" he asked. "Are you afraid I will snap? You think I'd be a drunken loser without you?" Fortunately, I was at the computer. I pulled up the definition of fiction and printed it out for him. My writing is now in a folder called mxlpx and I don't leave hard copy laying around.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Uberslacker2, it isn't red ink.

When I write on a manuscript (hard copy), I put "bled on by Kathleen" at the top of the first page because I believe a good, thoughtful critique (which is what I try to give) requires more than just the red ink in my pen.

So be especially thankful when someone "bleeds" all over your manuscript for you.

(I carry a red pen with me almost all the time--you never know when someone is going to need feedback.)

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Sherisaid, you have my sympathies. People who don't write sometimes have a hard time understanding where stories come from.

One of the advantages of writing science fiction and fantasy is that the settings are usually so "exotic" that anyone who reads something isn't as likely to think what you've written is autobiographical.

The more "real" the setting, the more likely readers are to think the rest of it is "real" and to take it personally.

It's another thing writers may have to remember to explain when training their "wise readers."

(I think when people ask "where do you get your ideas?" they are actually asking how an idea grew into a story. It may help to explain writing that way, so that readers won't be so inclined to believe your work is autobiographical.)

Posted by sherisaid (Member # 1410) on :

Thanks Kathleen. Most of my works are pretty exotic (One of the characters I carried into a series of stories is an exile from an extreme religious colony on the desert side of world in geosynchronous orbit with 2 suns...pretty sure no one would think that's autobiographical, LOL. The story in question was pretty real. I was a little flattered by his gut reaction--it evoked emotion in my reader, however misplaced--isn't that the goal of every writer?

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

I have had people freak over what I write--even strangers. It happens. I have one friend who I would let read anything and she doesn't spare the "blood". Once past the I love everythign I write stage "bloodie" crits are a great help.

Shawn

Posted by uberslacker2 (Member # 1397) on :

About wise readers. People close to you can critique your work. My girlfriend just totally butchered my 30-page story. I'm kinda scared that I'm going to get a lot of my paper's blood on my hands. I'm pretty much done with talking about this, just thought I'd have to put it.

The first time she read it she had to correct my horribly atrocious grammar, but this time my grammar was at least readable so she just butchered the story. Ain't it great?

The Great Uberslacker

Posted by Chuckles (Member # 1331) on :

It's been quite a while since I've had people in my life whom I could bring my writing to for a proper analysis. It's been very difficult. My songs I end up trying out in public, though I don't have the time to perform as much as I need. I wrote and performed a one-person play last year, and got zero feedback, and it's still a painful experience in my mind. The play before that, though, was good. I had a strong-minded cast who confronted me when they didn't understand the what or the why of it. Through their input, and what I learned from putting it on stage, it became a better script. It also helped that after its initial run, we remounted it several months later and took it on the road. That intervening time period also helped put things in perspective.

Take care
-Justin-

Posted by life of georgie (Member # 1427) on :

Okay, this is going to sound just about stupid, but what if we don't have anyone around us to make a Wise Reader?

I'm not married (I'm the last single person left on Earth) so I've got no hubby or even a boyfriend (because I'm the last non-committed single person on Earth) to make a Wise Reader. You can just forget my family. I wish I could.

I don't have any friends who are writers. I like my friends, I want to keep them, so showing them my writing would be like hitting them in the face, hard, with a rock. It would be bloody and painful. Plus jail time would follow shortly thereafter.

In essence, I am saying, there's not one freakin' person I could make into a Wise Reader.

So where do I get some? I'm a college student, I'm broke for the next twenty years (love the student loan shark gig the gov't has going on), so I need one for free. There's gotta be a place where I can grab some. A website, a mailing list, a forum, ANYTHING.

I was part of the Del Rey thing until they made it for pay. And I hated that.

And I can't get into a group...I feel stupid. I've read the instructions four times. Still don't get it. And I've signed up before and never had anything happen. No reply, nothing. *sigh*

I am now officially and most deeply desperate for a reader. I'll do anything (besides pay...I haven't got money. The government has it). I'll read your stories and give you wonderfully honest, helpful, in depth critiques. I will barter, beg, steal, lease out my eternal soul (I wouldn't sell, not in this market...can you say BEAR?).

I seriously think I'm gonna cry. I hate being a writer with nobody to read my stuff. It's a miserable existance. I know now, I'm crazy. All writers are. Who, in their right (write - pun!!) mind would want to live like this??

(+/-)Georgie

<~ ~>

"Nobody lives through that."

"Nobody lives through anything. It happens, they keep living and it's over."

"And that's not going 'through'."

"In the barelling mac truck sense of the word, no."

- Allastair and Gerrick

"Any Way You Can't"

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Wow! I'm sorry to hear all this.

You've gone to

http://www.hatrack.com/writers/writers/join-form.shtml

and filled out the form? Even if you have, could you try doing it again? (I'll watch for you.)

(as soon as I post this, I'll check the link and make sure it's working)

There are actually two things I do that are absolutely free. One is here at Hatrack, but the other one is the reason OSC asked me to do this for him and you all at Hatrack.

The other thing I do is run a by-mail writing workshop that has a monthly newsletter (which I send out for free in email). There are hundreds of people in the membership roster for that workshop and most of them have email addresses. Members are encouraged to contact each other and set up manuscript exchanges (be Wise Readers for each other).

If you'd like to know more about that, it's called the Science Fiction and Fantasy Workshop and the information is at its website:

http://www.burgoyne.com/pages/workshop

You can download this month's issue of the newsletter at the website and see if you'd like to receive it each month in email. (It's a PDF file, so you need Adobe Acrobat Reader to read it, but that's free from www.adobe.com)

I hope this helps. I'll be watching for your sign-up form.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Okay, I just checked all three links and they're working.

You have to delete the close paren ) from the end of www.adobe.com to get that one to work--sorry about that--and there is a button down the first page that says "get Acrobat Reader" that will take you right to the download for that.

Posted by Chuckles (Member # 1331) on :

A few of us over in the B.F.F.& A.C. forum are currently starting an informal sort of constructive critiquing group. If you'd like to join us, you're more than welcome. Drop me an e-mail if you'd like to get in touch.

Take care
-Justin-

Posted by MrWhipple (Member # 1436) on :

I guess I am lucky. My wife and I have a strong enough relationship to withstand some brutal editing. It helps that she is a professional copy editor and has taken a few books all the way to press for self published authors. This woman realy knows how to bleed all over what I thought was great prose.
She even puts up with exotic topics. I just finisned a short story about a guy who meets and alien named Paul in a psych hospital. The only question was whether Paul really was an alien. Paul had been over for diner a couple of times after I got out of the hospital and she swore that he was and alien. The story left it an open question.