posted
I found this the other day. The article is over a month old, but I think this would be an interesting element to add to a character. I'm throwing it out there just in case anyone needs it.
Summary: a young man dated a girl who he claims said she couldn't get pregnant. He also claims she was on birth control pills while they dated. She did get pregnant and now expects him to help pay for their child.
He claims that since he had no choice in the decision-making process and entered the relationship with the clear expectation that no children would come out of it, he feels he shouldn't have to pay for his (now) ex-girlfriend's surprising fertility.
Doesn't anyone know, "I'm infertile." is about the oldest line in the book for getting someone into bed? I tried to explain that to my sister-in-law a couple of years ago...
So I'm not clear on exactly what part of this you want to discuss? Characterization? I think the guy is the sort who would rationalize any way of getting out of responsibility. And the whole "men's rights" thing has just enough reasonability to it (if you greatly simplify the matter inanely and then ignore most of reality), to be a good rationalization tool. I bet he's the victim in everything that's gone wrong in his life and the hero of everything that's gone right.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited April 25, 2006).]
posted
Seems to me that proving in court should be relevant. If it can be proven that she deceived by never using birth control while claiming she did... proving would probably be difficult though.
In another "Men's Rights" example, there was an article I'd read quite a while ago. Two doctors were in a relationship of some sort (I don't recall the details, but they weren't married, and it wasn't long term). She performed oral sex on him, kept the semen, and impregnated herself later (or at least intended to at the point of the trial). A judge decided that she did nothing wrong / that he had no recourse.
Battery and rape are other situations. A women only has to accuse, and the man will be arrested. Even if it turns out that the man was not guilty, his "record" will show that he has been arrested for rape (or battery). So, when you're pulled over for a speeding ticket or broken tail light, or worse, if it came up during an employment bacground check...
Although the US is mostly patriarchal, there are a few areas that tend to favor women.
posted
Sex always has a risk of pregnancy. If you take the risk you are responsible for the consequences. Can a woman force a man who says "my sperm don't work" to carry the baby?
It takes a lot more than an accusation before police will make an actual arrest.
The unwilling donor story is an urban legend. I've seen six different versions of it. That's not to say it hasn't happened, its probably that somewhere, somehow it has. Its no more right than a woman having a baby as a result of a rape. But there are more places than not in the world where a woman has to keep and raise the child of her rapist without any form of support.
posted
I agree, Beth. My pathetic attempt at bringing some characterization into things aside, I don't see much here that has anything to do with writing.
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posted
I go away to play with the kids for an hour and my thread explodes!
[insert shock]
I didn't intend for this to be a discussion of characterization. Sometimes I post articles like this in case someone has a similar character in a story somewhere and wants a new angle on motivations or a new plot device. If this isn't the place to do it, I won't do it again.
And you gotta admit, this would be great for conflict in a relationship. It also would make an interesting addition to a SF future: I'm definitely adding some aspects of this to a story I've been working on (somewhat) for the past several years.
That said, feel free to discuss the merits of the case and how it could add some depth (or lack thereof) to a character. Personally, I don't see how anyone can support an extreme pro-choice platform and yet dismiss this guy's argument.
[This message has been edited by Keeley (edited April 25, 2006).]
posted
I'm not dismissing his argument. I think maybe she should leave him alone if he wants nothing to do with the baby. But I also think he shouldn't have had sex, unprotected sex, without paying attention to the consequences.
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posted
But it WAS protected sex. She claimed she couldn't get pregnant, and supposedly was on birth control. That is protected sex. It may not protect from STDs, but it is a measure of protection from pregnancy.
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posted
I'm not sure what pro-choice has to do with this. Pro-choice is a stricly legal stance, not a moral one. Many women do not feel that they have this choice.
I do not, however, completely dismiss the argument. I just think that we see things in such black and white in this country that I would risk having a few men hoodwinked (and heck, he did have sex with her without a condom...he could have used protection he could see with his own eyes and not just take her word for it) to keep hundreds of thousands of men from joining the ranks od "deadbeat dads."
Besides, someone saying they're infertile is the oldest line in the book. At least, that's what I told my sister-in-law when she got pregnant with a man who claimed the same thing.
posted
Dang it. And I had that in my summary, too.
Before I hide my face in embarrassment at such a glaring display of stupidity, I had a thought a little while ago. What if the roles were (somewhat) reversed?
Girl dates man who claims he's had a vasectomy, plus they use a condom to protect from STD's. And she's on the Pill for medical reasons.
Girl gets pregnant and decides to keep the baby. She sues the father for child support because, obviously, he lied to her about his ability to father a child.
Who would we be against then: the girl or the guy?
[I just now saw your post Christine. ]
[This message has been edited by Keeley (edited April 25, 2006).]
posted
Just so you know, I am neither for or against either party. Consent is consent and it requires responsibility on both parts.
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posted
You’re talking about selfish people (in your examples) and selfish people do rash, irresponsible things. Because they are selfish, the consequences are more severe. Of course, the consequences can be unplanned (no one wanted a conception to occur), or planned (the characters lie to support ulterior motives-they want the baby to be conceived for blackmail, revenge, whatever).
You can use these motivations to give the characters more depth. Once we have the depth in the characters, we know for whom we would be against. Just a thought…..
posted
I'd seen news reports about the case. I remember something similar, about going after sperm bank donors for child support.
I suppose if the guy had "gotten it in writing," stating that in the event a pregnancy results from this relationship, that he is in no way responsible for child support, he might have a better case. Of course a court might throw out such a contract...
Alas. It may seem a shame, but the old adage is true. "There's no such thing as casual sex."
posted
Unless the man was willing to get snipped or put on a condom, he should be held liable for the outcome of his sexual conduct. Now, if he had used birth control and she had tampered with it to get pregnant ... that another ballgame.
But thinking about it, if she "purposely lied" about her infertility and birth control to get him in bed, with the intent of getting pregnant and collecting child support ... then I'd have to lean towards the guy's case. That's extortion in my book.
posted
Beth is right, this isn't a conversation about writing.
The argument that this is a matter of "choice" is clearly just an argument that "choice" doesn't have a moral or legal leg to stand on when you put the shoe on the other foot. Whether you find that a compelling argument against "choice" or not, this doesn't become a thread about writing.
And the posts so far bear out that view. I don't think this is the proper forum to discuss this. Keeley, feel free to write a story that touches on this subject, we'll help you with it. Then it will be about writing. But for now, this is just an argument about sexual politics in our country.
posted
I'm interested in the issue, and if a writer is going to write about characters involved in the issue, the writer should get a grasp on what feelings and thoughts are floating around about the issue.
Multiple characters: each taking a particular angle on the issue.
posted
Then there's LeGuin's "Left Hand of Darkness", which posits a race that is androginous except during their "fertile" period, during which time they may take on either the male or female secondary sexual characteristics. A character may be mother to some children and father to others.
An interesting look at gender roles and culture. A ripping good story too.
posted
I should read that book...but I tried to read another LeGuin novel and couldn't get past the first fifty pages it was so bad...it's kind of poisoned me.
I did just read a novel about a race of aliens that are all born female and live their lives as females. Late in life, they go through a sort of pre-death phase in which they become male. (They lose their minds a this point. )
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