This is topic The Oregon Trail... or This Pilgrim is Going Home. A Landmark? in forum Landmark Threads at Hatrack River Forum.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/main/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000319

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I know I don't post much on Hatrack anymore, but I felt I ought to go ahead and post this here.

The Oregon countryside is teeming with Blanchards and Blanchard relatives. I have always favored my Blanchard side and adored numerous family vacations that brought me to my Grandparents farm. I grew up feeling gyped that I didn't get to grow up on a farm myself. Currently the only people in my family not in the Pacific Northwest are me and my youngest brother--who will probably end up there eventually.

Well, Porter and I had recently started talking about a possible move to Oregon. Both of us were reasonably happy with Utah, so we weren't in a hurry. We put the distance at a very safe 4 years.

In the meantime, the wheels of my mind were turning. I began researching livestock and pasture-farming. I was enchanted with the idea of year-round grazing--animals living off the land with little or no feed suppliment. Dairy goats, chickens, dairy and meat cows, pigs--I am even thinking of running some free-range guinea pigs on the land. Perhaps a greenhouse for year-round produce. More and more my soul hungered. This felt so right. I began researching real estate to see what it would cost to get some acreage. It seemed a bit out of our financial grasp, but I felt confident that in a few years we would've saved up enough.

Then a certain property popped up. It offered far more than any other I'd seen at far better a price. It wasn't in the middle of nowhere, ithe house was sufficiently-sized, and it was on 6 acres! There was a heated shop in the backyard as big as the house! I knew Porter would just love that. Both of us would have space to follow our passions and hobbies. And, it was three miles from my dear sister's house! I had been thinking that since Porter does not want to deal with farming and livestock, living near my brother-in-law who is gung-ho about these things, would be crucial. This seems to be the deal of a lifetime, for us.

But the day we started to get serious, the house went under contract. I was crestfallen! But the potential buyer had a contigency on selling their own house in California, and we realized there might be a way we could still get this house.

My Dad got arranged to get a home equity loan and offered to loan it to us so that we could pay for this house in cash. We would pay him back when we sold our house here. My family checked this place out taking pictures and notes for our benefit. We decided to make an offer. They countered the offer (we expected this) and we accepted the counter. At this point, the other buyer had 24 hours to either drop their contingency or back out of "first position."

They backed out today. That means we are officially under contract to buy this house in "first position." O_o

We are headed up to Oregon this Saturday to see the place for the first time. I am so relieved that all my dreaming can be "for real." The only thing stopping us from getting this place is us deciding not to get it after seeing/inspecting it.

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!! I am so frickin' excited! I feel like I am coming home. Really coming home.
 

---

Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
That is wonderful, beverly! Parts of the idea of running a small-scale farm and producing most of my own food really appeal to me, but enough other parts don't that I could never actually do it. I'm so excited for you that it's something you want and may be able to make a serious try at. Good luck!
 

---

Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Mazel Tov! You can milk your own dairy animals and make your own kefir. You can shear your own sheep and then knit them sweaters.

Enjoy!
 

---

Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Congratulations! I hope it turns out to be everything you are wishing for.


 

---

Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
 
That is so cool bev! I'm excited for you! Although if you move, we won't be able to hang out next time I come up to Park City . Sacrifices must be made in the name of progress though . Seriously, I really hope it works out.
 

---

Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
Mazel Tov! You can milk your own dairy animals and make your own kefir. You can shear your own sheep and then knit them sweaters.

Enjoy!

---

Exactly.

Yay, beverly! Yay, yay, yay! And yay for mph, too!
 

---

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
This is great, bev! Porter had told me that you guys were likely going to be going up to check the place out (although at that point it wasn't certain), but at that point I didn't have the context to understand why that place was so ideal for you. I hope that it passes your inspection with flying colors, and that you guys are soon living this life. Good luck!
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
You do realize you now have to buy four ponies right?


This is a lifestyle at times I've wanted, since it's pretty close to the way I grew up, though we never actually had the animals, neighbors and friends always did, and as a kid we had (still do) 9 acres I could explore with my dog. Congrats to Porter, Bev, and all four kids.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Thank you all! The only thing that makes me sad is Porter's mixed feelings. I wish he were as excited as I am.

Tante makes me laugh.

Yeah Dr. We also will no longer be the central meeting place for the Utah clump. That is sad. But we will be closer to other awesome Jatraqueros!
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Oh, I totally want a horse, maybe two. Porter has always known that I want that. But he has always looked at horses as "rich man's toys" and really is anti-excited about me doing that. I think it would take some convincing.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Porter needs to see the place before he will actually begin to consider this. (That is the way Porter is.) But the fact that he has agreed to go "this far" says that he is serious in that consideration.
 

---

Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 

quote:

---

You can shear your own sheep and then knit them sweaters.

---

Why not save yourself the work and not take their wool in the first place?

Or are you entering them in livestock fashion shows?
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
But yes, we are going out there this next week to check it out.

From what we can tell so far, it's a wonderful place.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
One thing I really like about this place is that it has a gigantic workshop/shed/barn that is as big as the entire house. I've always joked that I wanted to live in a warehouse with a nice home built in the corner. This is about the closest thing to that.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
My biggest hang-up is that I don't know if I want to move at all right now, and I don't know if I want to move to Oregon.

The fact that I can live anywhere and still keep my job is actually pretty annoying right now. Too much choice == more stress.
 

---

Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Wow, I think that is a great opportunity.

And, you know, Hatrack could come visit you and camp out in your backyard.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
This has been an extremely emotional week for me. A lot of me doesn't want to move just because I don't want to deal with change.

I don't want to have to deal with this decision. I was hoping we'd get out-bid for the property. That didn't happen.

But, we're going there this weekend, and I have to deal with it.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
That would be a sight to see! Watch out for cow pies.
 

---

Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 

quote:

---

A lot of me doesn't want to move just because I don't want to deal with change.

---

I've moved 10 times since I've been old enough to remember it, and every single time I've felt that way, even when I was moving from a crappy place to a better place, or a place I didn't really want to be to a place I did.
 

---

Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 
That's incredibly exciting for both of you!!

Porter, be well!
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 

quote:

---

Porter, be well! [Smile]

---

I dunno why, but this sounds like something Telperion would say.

I miss Telp.
 

---

Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Congratulations! I hope it works out.

Is this why you had to be able to tell if broadband was available at a specific address? I almost posted "thinking of moving" in that thread but decided you would have said something if you wanted to discuss it.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

---

Is this why you had to be able to tell if broadband was available at a specific address?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ketchupqueen:

quote:

---

A lot of me doesn't want to move just because I don't want to deal with change.

---

I've moved 10 times since I've been old enough to remember it, and every single time I've felt that way, even when I was moving from a crappy place to a better place, or a place I didn't really want to be to a place I did.

---

quote:

---

Can you really graze a sufficient number of livestock on six acres while maintaining a decent amount of farmland and at least two sizable buildings? We've got nearly an acre of land here, and six times our property doesn't seem like it'd feed many cows.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Can you really graze a sufficient number of livestock on six acres while maintaining a decent amount of farmland and at least two sizable buildings? We've got nearly an acre of land here, and six times our property doesn't seem like it'd feed many cows.

---

I don't know if cattle work the same way, but I believe the general rule for horses is one horse per acre of pasture is ideal. (It might be two per acre, but I'm pretty sure it's one.) More than that, and the grass will go away, and they'll have to depend a lot more on hay.

I think this sounds like a wonderful opportunity and a lot of fun! In my idealistic dreams, I'd love to do something like that someday, but I'd definitely need a willing partner-in-crime - I wouldn't have the motivation to follow through with something like that on my own.

I hope everything works out so that everyone's happy.
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
Our neighbors do more than one cow per acre, they do hay quite a bit though, I'm not sure how many bales a what time frame.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Tom, I don't plan to have a large number of any one animal, and I don't intend to do much beyond a family-sized vegetable garden (maybe a greenhouse, but that would come later.)

Also, there are a lot of innovative methods being developed that allow for more animals to be able to graze the same acreage. You see, if you let all the animals on all the land all the time, they will eat down their favorite plants and neglect the rest. They bite their favorites down too often, weakening them beyond their ability to recover, while the less-favored plants thrive, over-grow and go to seed. Plants that have gone to seed are generally unpalatable.

If you separate the land into small paddocks and move the animals frequently, they will graze the area in such a way that the favored and the unfavored get bitten, and none get so bitten that they can't recover quickly. In a lush climate it is easier to pull off, and this area of Oregon is about as lush and mild as it gets. During the season of fastest growth, you'd probably hire a tractor to cut hay off of some of the paddocks because you don't want them to get overgrown and go to seed.

In Oregon, it stays green all winter, so winter grazing is no problem at all. The summer, though, gets really dry. That is the time I might need to suppliment feed or do something else to get water to the land. There are trees all around to serve as wind-breaks, so minimal shelter, if any, would be needed for these animals.

Also, you can fit more animals on if you have small numbers of different species since different animals favor different plants. Goats love to eat bushes and tree branches. Sheep prefer "forbs" (bushy weedy things) and bovines and horses prefer grass. Pigs will eat just about anything, as will chickens. A lamb didn't make it through it's first delicate night of life? You feed it to the pigs and chickens. You can even work things so that the chickens eat the maggots out of the manure, lessening the fly problem as well as helping spread the manure where it is better used by the plants. You have your own little ecosystem when you work small and diversified. Small enough to give everything personal attention, diversified enough that the animals fill niches in the farm and complement each other.

Part of this land is overgrown by bushiness, and so I intend to lose some goats on it to clear it up a bit.

It is great when you can work in harmony with nature, God has provided all the necessary tools within the animals and plants without needing lots of big, heavy, expensive machines. Animals raised on grass are leaner, have a higher percentage of nourishing, life-giving fats and other nutrients, and are happier and healthier. Plus, people are clammoring to get milk, eggs, and meat from such a wholesome source. What you need is some good fencing, water supply, and perhaps a bit of seeding now and then to help things along. The impact of the animals on the land enhances the plant life so long as everything is well managed. You can actually get quite a bit out of the land this way for less work and expense.

Well, it's easy for me to talk big now when I haven't actually tried this all out. I intend to start small and build from there. Chickens and dairy goats first. (All this assuming Porter ends up being OK with it. He knows I want to do this, but he hasn't decided he wants to let me.)

[ October 05, 2006, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: beverly ]
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Mr. Funny, the place is in Dallas, Oregon. This is a link to the property, and it has a link on that page to a virtual tour. Also, for fun, try looking up the address on Google Earth. It is the one with all the cars on the lot. (The current owners fixed VW Bugs for a living.) The "X" that it shows is most likely the south eastern corner of the property, as best as I can tell. The property is shaped mostly squarish with a pointy "finger" that juts up along the road northward. I am not sure what to do with that outstretch of land at this point. :/ It appears that all the buildings are clustered into the north western corner of the squarish section.

The treeish strip along the road has a small seasonal creek and a small seasonal pond that is so overgrown you can hardly see it at all. That is a place I intend to send my attack goats. I want my kids to be able to catch frogs like I did growing up! Ooo, and check out the pond our next door neighbors have.

All the land to the north and west is tree farm owned by Californians that come up a few times a year to check on their land. Current home-owners say they are great neighbors. I wonder if they'd let me go horseback riding through there? Certainly the kids would have a great time exploring the Big World. :sigh:

Nell: I've heard it recommended 1 horse per two acres, but I don't think that takes rotational grazing into account.
 

---

Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
This sounds so exciting! It's something that I would have loved to do had I stayed in Canada. Here, not so much.
 

---

Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
 
Beverly: when I was in my early teens, we had a horse. We lived in a rented farmhouse and the landlord let us keep our horse in the barnyard.

Every morning (spring through fall) I took the horse down the road and staked her in the ditch. We had a rope attached to the fence and a rope with a metal link that the horse was attached to. She had the range of the fence rope plus the length of her rope. Each morning I would move the end of the fence rope farther away, so she got a different area to graze. Every evening I went and brought her home.

Of course, this was in the early to mid-70s, and I wouldn't recommend leaving a horse unattended for people to steal or even just release. But, it did allow for rotating her area for grazing.

Oh, and best wishes that this works out for the best for your family.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Oooo! CaySedai, I have been thinking about that! You see, while eventually I want a nice, big, strong fence around the entire 6 acres (and perhaps to try and buy or lease the square to fill out the area by the north-pointing finger of land) that will cost money and time that we may not have at first. This move will clean out most of our non-retirement savings as well as possibly making it more challanging to amass more savings. A fence may have to wait.

So I have been thinking of doing a similar thing with various livestock--staking them to an area to graze and moving them around that way. It would get impractical pretty quickly with too many animals, but it might be a way to start out. Maybe the animals will help me make enough money to fund a fence! One can dream.
 

---

Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
Well, whatever you both decide is best for you and your family, have a great time this weekend and have fun dreaming!! I hope you'll have time for posting reports on your progress should you end up buying it . . . I really enjoyed your butter and kefir thread!
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Thanks! I intend (once I get enough milk flowing through goats, cows or both) to make large amounts of kefir to feed to my livestock. From everything I hear, animals love kefir, and it gives them great benefits of health and vitality as well as strengthening their immune system.

One of the big reasons I want at least one cow is that I'd miss making butter if I only had goats. Goat milk is naturally homogenized--at least it takes a very long time for the cream to separate out.
 

---

Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
Holy crap Mary!!
*big hugs*

This is amazing news! While I was reading it I as thinking "Porter likes to farm??", knowing he's a computer guy (among many other things). But that's a good idea, having your family so close and who are already into farming can come help out on the land.


I have a family farm in Ohio, 45 acers. No animals, just corn and soybeans on rotation. No one has lived there though since the 50's, but we do go down twice a year to visit and we have a local farmer tend the land while we are away.

But it feels like a second home to me... my ancestral land going back to the Civil War.
 

---

Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Creepy, the agent's name is Bob Taylor. One of my best friend's dad's name is Bob Taylor.


Spooky.
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
One of the most common American first names combined with a fairly common last name.

Yeah, I can see why you'd be spooked.

Please! It's not like you had a doctor named Rivka or something.
 

---

Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Bev, that looks like just a wonderful place for kids to grow up.
 

---

Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 

quote:

---

I intend (once I get enough milk flowing through goats, cows or both) to make large amounts of kefir to feed to my livestock. From everything I hear, animals love kefir, and it gives them great benefits of health and vitality as well as strengthening their immune system.

---

I feed my cat Oberon kefir. He has a problem with skin infections that's clearing right up. I could take him to the vet, but this is as effective as quickly, so I don't see the point. Oh, and his mange (it barely started on his lower lip) is also cleared up. I've been having problems getting it cultured consistently the way we like it (mild, not very sour, and not separated) in this heat, so I haven't been giving it to him consistently. I'm curious to see what it'll do to him when it's consistent.

On another kefir note, I've finally figured out a good system (I think) for this weather... Less than a teaspoon of kefir grains (mine are soooo small and not growing ) in 4 to 6 cups of milk, and I have the start of separation in less than 24 hours. So, still tweaking it, but I'm getting closer.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

---

This is amazing news! While I was reading it I as thinking "Porter likes to farm??", knowing he's a computer guy (among many other things). But that's a good idea, having your family so close and who are already into farming can come help out on the land.

---

I joked last night that if we do this, we'll split up the household responsibilities. I'll take care of the 20th and 21st century, and she'll take care of the 19th and earlier.
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Seems fair.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Unfortunately, that puts trebuchets in her domain.
 

---

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Yeah, but you get orbital lasers.
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Not if it's computerized.

Anyway, I'm sure she'd let you do it. Just make sure she gets the credit.
 

---

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

quote:

---

I have a family farm in Ohio, 45 acers. No animals, just corn and soybeans on rotation. No one has lived there though since the 50's, but we do go down twice a year to visit and we have a local farmer tend the land while we are away.

---

quote:

---

Porter, has it occured to you that you will be in the same state as Powell's?

---

quote:

---

Porter, has it occured to you that you will be in the same state as Powell's?

---

Oh, that's too rich. Beverly is irrationally afraid of mushrooms.
 

---

Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
That's silly. Mushrooms are disgusting, not scary.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I looooooove mushrooms.
 

---

Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
 
Did you click the Powell's linky yet? Here's the tour. It's a city block of books. But they have warehouses and the aforementioned Technical Books as well as a travel store and cookign store . . . find a way to get there while you're visiting, I think it will go a long way toward making Oregon, and a possible move, more exciting. So jealous. Powell's . . . mushrooms . . . vineyards . . . the coast . . .
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Mushrooms! Ewwwwww. >.<


 

---

Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
 
What is it with engineers and trebuchets? We have a trebuchet conversation at lunch at least once a month at work. I even got trebuchet simulator spam from an electronic parts distributor. Hmmmm....trebuchet + chickens....workable do you think?
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

---

What is it with engineers and trebuchets?

---

This is one of those questions that cannot be explained. Either you get it or you don't.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
If I may reference the Valar from Tolkein's Middle Earth, I have decided that Porter is very much like Aule while I am very much like Yavanna, Giver of Fruits.

Yavanna is a mother-nature figure who created the trees Telperion and Laurelin. She made the Ents, her shepherds, to protect her precious trees. She can appear as a tall, green-robed woman, or be mistaken for a tree. She is married to Aule, the Master Craftsman.

Aule loves gems and metals. Aule is said to have created the dwarves. He did so in secret because he was impatient to have someone to teach his skills to. Because he created them without Yavanna's touch, they have no love for living, growing things of nature.

Needless to say, as Yavanna and Aule's loves cover very different realms, so Porter and I often have a very hard time understanding one another's interests and passions.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Speaking of Telperion... long time no see! How are ya?

That is awesome that you have a family farm. Is this something that you will inherit someday?
 

---

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
What form does an irrational fear of mushrooms take? Will she cross the street if she sees one walking towards her?
 

---

Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
 
Beverly, do you think you could share some of the resources you used while you were researching this? I've been fantasizing about this kind of thing for years, but never seriously thought about doing it, and I'd love to learn more.
 

---

Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Porter, you and Mary Cate WILL come to Powell's and you will revel in the full block of new and used books. (It's one of the biggest used book stores in the country and it's in Portland.)

So you guys would be just a couple hours from me...yea even less than that. Just a hop away from Lincoln City and Newport! Sounds like a fantastic location...especially because it's close to ME! I hope you end up here, I would love it.
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
I'd cross the street if I saw a mushroom walking towards me, especially if it was Kirkwood (so only people who have been to Bloomington, IN will get this, but oh well)
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Narnia, I would love that too!

Stray, I am trying to remember exactly how I got started. I think I basically went to the library specifically to find a book my sis-in-law recommended because she is wanting to homestead on acreage herself. I never did find that book, but I discovered a wealth of other books! I poured over them and drank them in. I realized that there are ways to do things different from the "old conventional" ways that are currently driving farmers into bankruptcy. Fields of government subsidized corn and soybeans are NOT necessary! The tilling of the earth with monster machines that speeds erosion and rapes our land is NOT necessary! Year-round grazing IS possible! Money CAN be made being a pasture farmer! And everything about it just sings to my soul. I feel I have found my true calling.

Books I would recommend: Small Scale Livestock Farming, All Flesh is Grass and Barnyard in Your Backyard. All of these were at my local public library, and all were fabulous! And there are so many more out there for more specific subjects. These books all recommend other books.

The next step would be finding people locally who do things like what you want to do. Learn from them and offer to help them. Best of luck!
 

---

Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
beverly, just wanted to say that I can really relate to your feeling about wanting to move to a place like that. It's a dream of ours to have a few acres in the middle of nowhere and to live as self-sufficiently as possible.

It sounds really exciting!
 

---

Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomDavidson:
What form does an irrational fear of mushrooms take? Will she cross the street if she sees one walking towards her?

---

I've never had any fungiphobe tendencies, but, if that is the definition, yeah, I'm a-scared of strollin' 'shrooms.

Bev and Porter, will there be a music studio?
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I've wondered the same thing.

I might be able to set one up out in the barn.
 

---

Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
Bev, you know I've already talked with you at length about this new direction of yours, and I'm happy you're doing it.

I just wanted to add in - due to your post above about pasturing-as-opposed-to-farming. While I totally support that, I wanted you to be aware of places that exist such as The Land Institute that are actually making "farming" be more eco-friendly, as well, by promoting and developing a polyculture as opposed to our current monoculture farming.
(I feel strongly enough about them that this place is about the only thing I link to off my family homepage)
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Farmgirl, I apologize if I was using a bit of hyperbole there. I am very excited about the potential of rotational year-round grazing, and I do feel strongly that the way agriculture has been going is bad for our land and our future economy. I am glad to hear of such a movement and I am all in favor of progressive change.
 

---

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

quote:

---

It's a dream of ours to have a few acres in the middle of nowhere and to live as self-sufficiently as possible.

---

I have actually had nightmares about this possibility. Not you living somewhere in the middle of nowhere, but me living somewhere in the middle of nowhere and personally having to remove dirt and hair from my still-bleating food.

Me and the land, we're not friends; we are in fact sworn enemies. I leave it alone, it leaves me alone, and everyone's content.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Ooo, I wanna do bees too. But that can wait until later. Don't want to complicate things too fast! I need to be comfortable with one thing before moving along to another.

Tom, I have been very interested in humane methods of slaughtering animals. I've never done it before, so I'm a bit nervous. I intend to learn. I don't like the idea of being dependent on someone else for my food. If we do this, even if the grocery stores are empty, we will have enough and to spare.
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
I'm with Tom. Well, I can grow plants ok. An herb garden, even. But beyond that, I'm a big believer in food coming from markets.
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
I'd do chickens for eggs only, and would love to have sheep and possibly an Alpaca to shear and make wool from. But there's no way I'm doing meat or dairy myself, not that I eat much meat. I'm a horse kid though, so that does help a bit with feeling comfortable with animals, I've ridden for gasp ten years now.
 

---

Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
Wow, this is awesome. I hope that this place turns out to be right for you. We recently moved to Ohio from Arizona in order to set up our own mini-farm. I have a lot of similar ideas as you do about livestock. Would you be interested in emailing so that we could discuss ideas and experiences?

quote:

---

Originally posted by beverly:
So I have been thinking of doing a similar thing with various livestock--staking them to an area to graze and moving them around that way. It would get impractical pretty quickly with too many animals, but it might be a way to start out. Maybe the animals will help me make enough money to fund a fence! One can dream.

---

The main difficulty with this is keeping predators away from your livestock. There are probably coyotes up there, and there will almost certainly be loose dogs in the area.

What we've been doing is fencing small parcels at a time, because we can't afford the money, time, or labor to fence all 10 acres right now. Just have a master plan for how you want your paddocks laid out, and build one or two at a time.

Also, look into livestock guard dogs. Great Pyrenees seem to be the most common, but there might be other breeds available in that area. We really like our Anatolian Shepherd/Great Pyrenees cross, enough that we hauled him all the way here from Arizona.

Boy, I hope this works out for you guys!

*so excited*

--Mel
 

---

Posted by Dead_Horse (Member # 3027) on :
 
Did you say free-range Guinea Pigs? As in Cavies? What kind of fence do you need for that?
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Mel, you are right about coyote's being a problem. :/ I'm not sure what I want to do about that. I'm actually not all that interested in having a dog--though I am willing to consider it. I've heard a lot of stories about dogs killing what they were supposed to protect.

Oh, and I would love to correspond. Email in my profile.

Aaaaand that brings me to guinea pigs. I am a big fan of cavies. About a week ago, I turned my two boars "out to pasture" as an experiment. They seem to be doing great so far. I've realized that they are a lot like chickens. They want to stay by their shelter. They have no desire to stray away from it. You provide a small portable shelter where they can feel safe from predators (and hopefully BE safe from predators) and move it around every so often. They can't tolerate temperatures below freezing, though so you'd take them indoors in the winter.
 

---

Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
 
I always wanted to live on a farm. Still do.

Good luck. And don't forget to give us updates.

Edit: When I was little, I had guinea pigs. (As pets!) A couple of my parents' friends (Bolivian) would always tease me about eating them. It was the surest way to get me riled up.
 

---

Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
Powell's! Trebuchets! Woooooo!

Hey, that would be cool if you lived kind of near us (and by "us," I mean "my family" since I doubt I'll be around home as much once I graduate). One of my friends when I was in junior high lived in Dallas.
 

---

Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Ohhhh . . . Powell's is a simply wonderful place. Hmmm.

Bev! Porter! How exciting! I just caught this thread -- I think it's awesome you get the trebouchets, Bev. *grin* Porter -- be easy -- change is just another day. (I know -- easy to say.)
 

---

Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beverly:
Mel, you are right about coyote's being a problem. :/ I'm not sure what I want to do about that. I'm actually not all that interested in having a dog--though I am willing to consider it. I've heard a lot of stories about dogs killing what they were supposed to protect.

---

There are a lot of considerations to take into account. Just looking monetarily, if you are only keeping a few run-of-the-mill 4-H goats, for example, it may not be worth the initial cost for a dog as well as the maintenance costs (our two eat around $70 worth of food every month! Granted we feed them a premium brand...) The more money you have tied up in your livestock, however, the more it's worth it to have a good dog. Not to mention that it's tough emotionally to have your animals killed or crippled by a predator.

However! You definitely can't use just any old dog, that's for sure! But if you follow three rules, you should be fine:

1. Choose an established livestock guarding breed, such as Great Pyrenees. There are others, but they are more obscure in the United States.

2. Choose a line within that breed that still does that work, for at least the last several generations. No show dogs!

3. Choose a puppy that has been raised in a guarding situation, ie with the type of livestock you expect to have and with older LGDs around to begin training it.

It can be difficult meeting all three requirements, but it's worth it. You may even have to go out of state to find one. We got very lucky and only had to travel about 50 miles to get our puppy. Once you have the pup home, you still need to watch so that you can discourage it from playing too roughly with the livestock, but since it has been raised with them this likely won't be much of an issue.

Some farmers say to have as little contact with the pup as possible so that it only develops ties to its herd, but I don't agree with this. I think that it's probably good advice for a free range type situation, where the dog will need to stay with the herd of its own free will for days at a time. However, in a small farm environment where animals will be penned, I think it is worth the trade-off for the owners to be able to easily handle the dog. I do basic obedience training with mine, so that vet trips and grooming are easier. This doesn't have to be a huge commitment: 15 minutes a day will pay off in the long run.

I'll end with an anecdote. We kept a few goats in Arizona, in the middle of the desert. There were plenty of coyotes and free-roaming dogs around, but we never had anything attack our goats. When the vet was out, she said that she had never been called to take care of wounded goats when there was a livestock guard dog on duty.

--Mel
 

---

Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
 
Around here people use llamas to protect their sheep from coyotes. Apparently they will kick the crap out of any coyotes that attempt to make trouble.

ID this quote:

"I like my women like I like my coffee. Covered in BEES!"
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I have considered a llama as well. I'm not wild about llamas either, though.
 

---

Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Congratuations, Beverly and Porter.
 

---

Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
 
Eddie Izzard

I like "I like my women like I like my coffee. Ground up and in the freezer" better, but I don't know who said it originally.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Are llamas good for anything, other than protecting sheep?
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Yes.
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
Not really. Llama fleece isn't bad, Alpaca and Sheep are better (assuming the sheep are a fleece breed and not a meat breed, it's pretty equal to some meat breed wool). I think maybe a third of a Llama fleece is usable, the rest is a bit too coarse.
 

---

Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
 
bev, I think this whole lifestyle is fascinating and would love to be your neighbor because I couldn't imagne feeling the responsibility of it myself. I guess I'd have to go in steps as you seemed to have done. I think this is great and I hope it works out for you!

And for you too mph, that barn/shop/music studio sounds awesome!
 

---

Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
Llamas are good pack animals, so if you do a lot of hiking/backpacking you could have an extra use for them. On the other hand, training goats for pack work has become popular in recent years, so there you go. Last I checked, llamas are pretty expensive, too.

--Mel
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Well, we saw the place, and we liked it.

Crap.
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Um, was that really beverly posting?
 

---

Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Green Acres is the place for me!
Fa-ARM livin' is the life for me!
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Um, no, that was me. I didn't realize she was logged in here.

Beverly would have said "Yay!" instead of "crap".

<_<
 

---

Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
You know, Porter, I kind of thought that sounded like you. Or Bev in a fit of empathy.
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Beverly would have said "Yay!" instead of "crap".

---

Yeah, that was the tip-off.
 

---

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Porter, I do have one serious question: do you believe that you can move out to a farm and watch your wife become a farmer without becoming a farmer yourself?
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Oh, that's a question I've asked myself time and time again, and much of the reason for my hesitation in this whole endeavor.
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
You will, but not in the cool actually farming way. You're more likely to turn into the guy who thinks he's farming and buys brand new farmer clothes, but doesn't get dirty. You'll also wear a cowboy hat, while most farmers wear baseball caps.

(this is actually about the husband of someone I know, it very well could apply to porter).
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Actually, I don't think it's the right correct question to ask. Some questions to ask right now is do we want to leave our current home? Would we like to live in that community? Would we enjoy living out in the country with a few critters?

Whatever happens, it will be gradual (except for the one big step of actually buying the land and moving). I don't need to worry about what it would be like to have Beverly be a full-fledged farmer. When the times come, the questions that Bev and I will have to consider will be more along the lines of "are we willing to take X step now?" If we aren't both happy with dealing with, say, a few chickens, then we probably won't be ready to go to the next step and get a goat. Or whatever.

breyer: I probably misunderstood I understood what you said, but it came across kinda insulting, that you think I'll become an ignorant, uncool, wannabe poser.
 

---

Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
I'd definitely go for at least a few Blue-Faced Leicster sheep, merino sheep, or alpacas. "Gourmet" fiber is becoming a big business these days, and I know there are cooperatives to help you sell it in Oregon.

AJ
 

---

Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
 
Perhaps she meant that you'll be a lovable gentleman farmer in the grand tradition of city folk who move out to the country and are committed to the idea, but have a bit of trouble with the reality. Cowboy hats (and boots!) can be helpful with that.

Do you read Terry Pratchett? I think, based on your posts, that you are much brighter than Sergeant Colon, but I love when he wants to start a farm in Feet of Clay. He reads a book called Animal Husbandry, and is concerned about the title, and is all set to have a nice, peaceful retirement, but then he meets Roger, the bulls [sic]. Anyway, it's one of my favorite books, very well done.

And - land grows on you. You can't keep from loving land, it just gets under your skin and makes you fall in love. So I think maybe you would like it. After a bit.
 

---

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I've actually grown to dislike land, to the point that I'd consider living in an apartment again if I thought Christy wouldn't wilt and die.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I have read some Pratchett, but not much. I haven't read any with Sergeant Colon. Sorry.

quote:

---

And - land grows on you. You can't keep from loving land, it just gets under your skin and makes you fall in love.

---

Actually, my dad fell out of love with land. He grew up in the country, and pretty much assumed that he wanted to do the same throughout his life.

But when he bought some land out in Oklahoma, he discovered that he didn't enjoy being in charge of land as much as he thought he would. When he got transferred to Texas, he bought a house in town, and has been in town ever since.

That being said, I think I could really enjoy living in the country. The really convenient thing about land is that when it gets to be too much for me, I can always go back inside.
 

---

Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
 
Porter and Bev,
The area you guys are thinking about moving to is absolutely beautiful. And it's not actually that far out into the boondocks. You're about an hour and half from Portland on I5, and your maybe an hour from the coast. Salem, the capital of Oregon, is probably a little under a half an hour away. It's not the prettiest city in the world, but it's urban enough to meet all the needs of a city dweller who's stuck in the country. And the area of the coast that you're close to is wonderful. Newport is a great city. Lincoln City is, in my opinion, an ugly little tourist trap, but it's got a popular casino(I know, I know), and LOTS of shopping. And the Oregon coast is insanely beautiful.
You'd also be close enough to Corvallis, where OSU is, to make a trip there convienent.
I'm just sayin', you might be living the country life if you moved there, but you'd be close enough to alot of pretty big cities that it might not be as painful a transition as you'd think.
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
No, i meant that that's the worst possible scenerio, and I see it as possible but avoidable.
 

---

Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
 
I grew up in a dairy farming community in rural Georgia and it had its good parts (great people, lifestyle) and its bad parts (terrible, terrible schools, far from everything). I'd probably live in a similar community, but Andrew is such a city slicker that he'd go bananas.

Have y'all talked to anyone about the snake and rodent populations out there? I don't know anything about Oregon, but there are lots and lots of snakes, bats, and mice where I grew up. There's fewer now, since stupid Atlanta has eaten everything almost to Athens, but still. You will need to know about things like that, especially with children running around.

Also, is there a large animals vet nearby? This is something you will definitely need.

If you do get goats - do not, under any circumstances, get a goat with horns. It will lead to a mess of problems and injuries that novices won't be equipped to deal with. It is especially important to have disbudded (dehorned) goats with small children in the household. Even if the goats are very tame and friendly, they can do serious damage just playing. They can also get pretty violent with humans, other animals, and each other. Kids should be debudded 3-8 days after birth, depending on the sex and breed. It's icky, but not bloody, and you'll most likely have to do it yourself - most vets know very little about goats. It does hurt the goats some, but you can give them painkillers and they'll be fine. Adult goats should never be dehorned - it is a horrible, bloody, painful process that can only be done by a vet (if you can find one who knows how and is willing to do it). So beware of anyone who wants to sell or give you an adult goat with horns. Also, goats with horns cannot protect themselves from dogs, no matter what anyone tries to tell you. Trust me.
 

---

Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
 
BTW, how's the baby?
 

---

Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
Hatrack is the coolest place. I love the feedback you are getting in this thread.
 

---

Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
 

quote:

---

You'd also be close enough to Corvallis, where OSU is, to make a trip there convienent.

---

Also where I live. And, I mean, seriously. Who wouldn't want to live near me?

Granted, I'll be gone by next year... Silly college.
 

---

Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Mr. Funny is going to Silly College? Figures.
 

---

Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
*waiting to hear from Beverly......*
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
In one hour is the big official inspection that we're tagging along for. This could be a show-stopper if they find something major and new.
 

---

Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Well, cross your fingers, I guess.
 

---

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I would hate this. I know I would. I bitterly resent the hours spent weeding and yardwork I did growing up. We only had a little over an acre, but between the lawns and the gardens and the orchard and the grape vines every single Saturday was spent working. Blech.

I'm thinking penthouse with a rooftop garden that I pay someone else to take care of. Maybe window boxes.

I have an ivy plant in my cubicle which requires only that I refill the vase once a month. That's my kind of farming.

However, it would be fun for kids. If I had kids, I would talk y'all into taking the farm and then accepting wee house guests for a few weeks every summer.
 

---

Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
So what's up? Or is now a bad time to ask?
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Hi! I guess I haven't come online in the last few days.

I love the house. It is quirky and tacky, and I love it. I'm tired of perfect, cookie-cutter houses and manicured lawns. In a place like this, you can be your own person and do your own thing. The house has lots of windows, and I love the feel of radiating heat from the wood-burning stoves. I love the idea of no (or low) heating bills!

The land is overgrown and will require a lot of work to get things where I can do what I am wanting to do. For awhile, I was feeling pretty discouraged. On the southeast corner of the property, there is a fairly steep drop to an area that is probably filled with water or marshy most of the year (it is bone-dry, though, after a dry summer.) The previous owners were putting fill into it to get as much flat land as possible, and for that I am grateful. But the effect of putting fill on a slope of land is that the slope gets shorter and steeper as you fill. Down that slope are large blocks of concrete and whatnot that could conceivably be dangerous to children. My bro-in-law gave it as his opinion that the steep drop would not pose a problem for grazing livestock. The cows might choose to go around where the slope is more gradual, but the goats would have a hay-day. They'd love climbing on those cement blocks and boulders.

A lot of the flat land is very rocky. Some of it is a result of the fill placed out there. I imagine grass could grow up around the stoniness, but still. It isn't the best condition to be dealing with. It isn't ideal for grazing land, I imagine. But the owner says the great thing about it is that it will provide great drainage. But with the terrain being so varied, I worry that horses might have a hard time getting around on this land. There are fissures and holes that hooves could get stuck in. Does anyone know if fissures and holes fill themselves in time, or if I would need to fill them?

All the edges of the land are tightly overgrown with brambles, blackberry and scotch broom, primarily. So overgrown, in fact, that I didn't realize until yesterday that there is a fence lining the entire south and west border! That was very heartening news for me! The fences are a bit old and need some attention, but it is a start.

Those of you with goat knowledge, what do you think would be better--sending the goats out to "attack" the existing growth, or cutting it down myself and letting them feed on the tender regrowth that will inevitably occur? My bro-in-law leans towards the second option.

Quirky, unimportant things that I find charming: The front landscaped area has a weeping cherry tree. I took great pains to make sure a weeping cherry was planted in our current front yard. When I saw that there was one at this place, it just warmed the cockles of my heart. The pond is a poor excuse for a pond and depressingly overgrown (so much so that you can't even get to it or hardly see it) but it has plenty of frogs and salamanders. I imagine they help keep down any mosquito problems, but what's more, frogs are an important part of my childhood, and it just seems right and fitting that they should be a part of my offsprings' childhood.

Also, being up in the hills up above the fog-line and nestled in trees is so perfect for me. Many plots of land are out in the flat, open areas, exposed to the wind and full sun. I love the seclusion here! It is exactly what I would want. We have some neighbors with young children, but on either sides of us, is 1) Boise Cascade and 2) someone who only comes out to the property about once a month. Lots of privacy. But three miles from my sister! There is one place that, if cleared, would afford us a nice view across to another hill. The bus would pass right by the end of our drive way.

Overall, I am very pleased with the land. It may not be where I want it to be, but there is no reason why it cannot be brought there with time and hard work. The inspection did not pull up any deal-breakers. The only "big" unexpected thing is that we will probably need to replace the roof within the next 3 years or so. For being an old house, the place is well-cared for and in good condition. The next step is negitiations on who does what repairs and what items on the land we might be able to acquire as part of the house or buy off of them.

We still don't have a firm "yes, this is what we should do," but as we go through this process, it is my opinion that that is likely where we will end up.
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
I don't have lots of goat knowledge, but I do know quite a few people who have let their goats in to attack overgrown properties like that one.
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beverly:
I love the feel of radiating heat from the wood-burning stoves. I love the idea of no (or low) heating bills!

---

quote:

---

In a place like this, you can be your own person and do your own thing.

---

..and run around naked with no one to see if you it is hidden by trees well enough!

quote:

---

Down that slope are large blocks of concrete and whatnot that could conceivably be dangerous to children. My bro-in-law gave it as his opinion that the steep drop would not pose a problem for grazing livestock

---

quote:

---

I worry that horses might have a hard time getting around on this land.

---

quote:

---

Unless you have an endless supply of free wood (and even if so, what a waste!), you'll still have heating bills. They'll just be for wood instead of petroleum products.

---

Out here, as long as you're willing to haul it away and split it yourself, you can get your firewood for free.
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Still a horrible waste of a natural resource. Not to mention polluting and inefficient.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a nice fire in the fireplace on a chilly evening. But it's just not a good way to actually heat a house.
 

---

Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
That's right. The best way to heat a house is, as we all know, to pack up and move south.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Thank you for your advice, Farmgirl! I will be asking anyone in the local area I can for advice as well. The Extension Service is a good idea. I am very interested in talking to local pasture-farmers about how they solve various problems. Just a few minutes ago, I was watching horses graze on a pasture dotted with blackberry brambles. I don't think they horses actually eat them, but they work around them just fine.

Rivka, there are two other options for heating the home, propane and electric (I think.) But what Porter said is true--here in Oregon, free wood is easy to come by. My sister pretty much heats her home with nothing but free firewood. In fact, a lot is to be had right on our property. Inefficient it may be, but cheap and available it is.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

---

Still a horrible waste of a natural resource. Not to mention polluting and inefficient.

---

quote:

---

Inefficient it may be, but cheap and available it is.

---

quote:

---

Still a horrible waste of a natural resource.

---

quote:

---

I don't know for a fact, but burning wood probably does release more pollution into the atmosphere than burning propane.

---

quote:

---

Remember to factor in labor when computing cost. How much is your time worth?

---

Well, when you take into account that it is a form of exercise, getting your body moving, building muscle, I'd say that it has value.

One of the things I am hoping to have in owning land is not *needing* to set aside time for exercise anymore in order to stay fit because I am getting enough exercise caring for land and animals. Staying fit is important to me, and I would much rather burn calories saving money on my heating bill (for example) than just plain burning calories.

I currently exercise for at least 1 hour 5 days a week. I could chop a lot of wood in that time.
 

---

Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beverly:
Inefficient it may be, but cheap and available it is.

---

quote:

---

I guess I agree with FG, especially if you're burning wood that's already down on the ground.

---

You guess???? You guess???!!!!

Don't understand why people are so reluctant to say they agree with me.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
edit: This is Beverly.

Update: There are some things that need to be done to this house. We requested that they do some of these things themselves, and they responded that they would not. So we are back at "square one."

In other news, Porter's last living grandparent just passed away. The funeral is in Lovell, WY this Monday. We are currently trying to figure out how best to get from here to there. 1000 miles, and 18 hours of driving. Not to mention MUCH colder weather. O_o

[ October 13, 2006, 02:19 AM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
 

---

Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
m_p_h: My condolences on the loss of your grandmother. And may you and your family be safe driving to and from her funeral.

Edited to add: I don't know what made me type "grandmother" -- it just says grandparent in Beverly's post. I'm sorry all the same.
 

---

Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
Sorry to hear that it didn't work out, Beverly, and deepest condolances to the entire family.
 

---

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Sorry to hear about your grandparent, Porter.

Bev, how important was it to you that they do these things? Is their refusal to do so a complete deal breaker? When you said that things are back to square one, did you mean in terms of the negotiations for this house, or in terms of the house search itself?
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Sorry for the lack of clarity. It was Porter's grandfather that died, and it was very much anticipated. Porter knew before we left that his health was going down fast, and the day before we were told that he had been taken off of the machines that would keep him alive.

As for the house, nothing as of yet has been a "deal breaker." But because this is an old house, there are many things that need attention. There are things about the electric wiring that are not up to code. The roof needs to be replaced within the next few years. Nearly half the house doesn't have a gutter system in place. There is some trim in back that wasn't finished with a recent remodeling. The toilet is loose where it connects to the floor, and the list goes on. We requested that they fix some of these things, some major, some minor. We also asked that they drop the price of the house to cover approximately half the cost of the roof.

We already had their offer to pay for half of a water holding tank, spraying for wood-eating pests and repair of the damage caused by said pests. They basically said that they would either stick with their original offer to pay for half of those things or they would drop the price of the house by $2,500, but they would not do both. The original offer is the better of the two.

Honestly, for a house originally built in 1940 and added on to multiple times, this house is in remarkably good shape, and they know that. They aren't highly motivated sellers, they know they are already selling for a very good value, and they aren't willing to negotiate further. I don't blame them one bit, nor am I surprised. This house probably wouldn't be a "money pit", but we would inherit some problems that would need fixing and repair. The problem with that is that we will already be stretching ourselves financially to get our own house ready for sale, move, and all the costs involved. Because there is a gap between the price we can get for our house and the price this one is going for, our mortgage will be higher. The concern is that we won't be able to afford this move, at least, not easily. Though, honestly, that's exactly how we felt when we moved into our current place. And truly, things were tight the first year. But we made it through and we have been OK ever since.

So, after the added time and expense of making it to Porter's grandfather's funeral, we need to go home and take a good, hard look at the numbers. Can we afford this? I think the answer will be: Yes, just *barely*.

This will be a leap of faith. It will stretch us. We don't like to be stretched. We are financially conservative in the extreme. We don't like anything to endanger that. But honestly, I think this is the right thing to do for so many reasons and the amount of risk is justified. Porter may not feel quite the same way I do, I will let him speak for himself.

What I meant by "square one" is that we still have a hard decision to make. If they had been more willing to negotiate, saying "yes" to this property would have been easier. We do not yet know how much their refusal to negotiate will cost us. We are getting bids to find that out. The actual difference cost may actually be fairly mild compared to what we were already planning to take on.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Concerning my grandfather: this was no surprise. He's over 90 years old, and hasn't been able to care for himeself for years. He went into the hospital about a month ago, and his health has been steadily dropping. A few days they took him off of the IV because his kidneys weren't processing the fluids, so we knew that he'd pass away within a week. I expected to go to his funeral next weekend, not this weekend.

I'm actually really looking forward to the funeral. The funerals for my other three grandparents have been fabulous experiences.

Concerning the place we're looking at: honestly, I like it. There are some annoying things about it, like the fact that it has the world's ugliest fireplace, and that we'll have to pay a yearly fee for full access to the local library, but overall I like the place and I like the community. I also really like the childhood I envision my kids having out there as opposed to the one I envision them having where we live now.

The only thing keeping me in Utah is my brothers. I worry about them, and I want to help them out, but so far I haven't been terribly effective at that even when I live two miles away. :worry:

The finances are a big concern. I agree with Beverly's assesment of the situation that we'll probably be able to do it, but it will be tight.
 

---

Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
((mph))
((bev))
You guys rock.
 

---

Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Wow. So much going on for you all! Thanks for keeping us posted. I know you'll come to the right decisions. Where are the pictures, eh? *smile*

Condolences about your grandfather -- mine just passed this Saturday, too. Being as he is in NY, I'll attend the service in spirit.

RE: goats -- I have some friends that have set their goats loose in very overgrown fields for the clearing effect -- it worked very well for them.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Ugh. I didn't even think to get pics I could put up! My camera's battery was dead anyway, I came to find out. But I have some pics that my family took when they first went that I could scan in.

Also, I linked to the real estate page before, it had several decent pictures. I wonder if those pages are still active? We are under contract, though our contingencies are still in place. We have just over a week before we must give our final answer.

The services were very nice. It is wonderful to celebrate someone's life in that way. We give them honor, we learn about them from each other's memories, we ponder on the impact the person had on us. Funerals can be such wonderful, healing ceremonies.

I am very excited about setting goats to this property. The idea makes me all smiley inside. I also read today that llamas love to eat blackberry and poison oak. (Some rescue llamas available on the Salem, OR craigslist.) Well, this property has a *lot* of both! Llama or dog to fend of predators? Or both? Hmmmm....
 

---

Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
OOOhhhhh! Llamas -- get llamas. Did you know they hum when they are happy?
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I am reading up on llamas now. I am a bit wary after what I have read. Apparently not all llamas have the instinct to guard, and the ones that do are more likely to develop dangerous behaviors.

I guess that is a problem in dogs as well. You want a dog that will be a good guard and yet be absolutely safe with your children and livestock.

Shan, what do you know about llamas? I like getting the scoop from multiple sources, especially since people running rescues can tend towards certain biases.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Blansjaar, eh? That is closer to the original French pronounciation.
 

---

Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
 
Darnit. Reading this thread has reawoken my need for a little bit of land to play with. But I'm stuck in a dorm with not so much as a small garden I can play around with. *sniff* You guys are making me jealous.

I hope everything works out for you Bev and Porter. That place sounds amazing!
 

---

Posted by ginette (Member # 852) on :
 
Right
 

---

Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Ahhh -- llamas. In my very limited experience helping a man who used llamas as pack animals for hiking trips, they always seemed very gentle and affable. They never acted up to me or any of the hikers that may or may not (usually not) have any experience with llamas. I.e., they never spit at me, or nipped, or stepped on my foot, or tried to shoulder me off the path, etc., nor did they do that to anyone else.

At one point, this man was out of town for two weeks on business and I cared for his 30 llamas, 8 sheep, 3 dogs, and one teen-age son. Guess who caused the most problems? *grin* One of the llamas was a blind baby that needed a variety of special medications and help feeding around the clock.

On more mature reflection, I imagine the timing of this trip may have been his way of saying "I need a break!" A sick baby llama may have been just one thing too many for his wife and him. Her name was Keera, and she was the sweetest critter and lived to be a mama herself.

Wow. Thinking about being in the mountains with llamas humming as they walk sure brings back memories . . . *happy smile*
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Huh. Almost thou persuadest me to get a llama.

One of the things I read on one of these websites was to the effect of: "Contrary to popular belief, llamas do NOT hum when they are happy!" They were saying that humming was more a sound of aggression or consternation. I like your story better.

The gal I've been corresponding with says that guard llamas are really hard to come by and all too often the llamas available are more likely to run from a coyote than chase it down. But again, that is one person's opinion. I am not going to drop the whole thing based on that. I think I will just have to wait and see what comes my way.
 

---

Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Llama Llama Not a Llama
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
We are moving to Oregon. We will send in our acceptance today.

I don't know whether to shout with excitement or shiver with anxiety!
 

---

Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
Oh my gosh! Good luck!
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Just to keep it from getting lost on the bottom of page three, Beverly and I have accepted the counter-offer. We are moving to Oregon.
 

---

Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Congratulations, both of you!
 

---

Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Yay!!! Party...at your place! Once you're settled. With the llamas.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Are llamas tasty?
 

---

Posted by ginette (Member # 852) on :
 


Congrats Beverly!!! and mr_porteiro_head!!!


 

---

Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
Best of luck.
 

---

Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 

quote:

---

One of the llamas was a blind baby that needed a variety of special medications and help feeding around the clock.

---

Is it cold of me to wonder why they didn't put said baby llama down?
 

---

Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
Congratulations! I'm really excited for you. And this reminded me that I was supposed to email you.

By the way, a livestock guard dog can keep pesky critters out of your garden, too. We just verified this because we brought ours back to the house for the winter, and the deer and turkeys immediately moved into what was left of our garden. Just as well, though, because they're both in season now.

Best of luck on the move and the new farm!

--Mel
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Mel, I have been emailing someone up in Oregon who is looking for a new home for their black lab mix. She says he's very gentle with children and has been an outdoor kennel-trained dog.

Does anyone here know if such a dog would make a good guard, since that is the strongest motivation for us looking into getting a dog at all? If this dog wouldn't work well, I'm more than happy to pass this up and just keep an eye out for other opportunities.

quote:

---

Just as well, though, because they're both in season now. [Evil]

---

Heh, I think this idea intrigues Porter as well. (I really need to learn what to do with a dead animal to make it edible.)
 

---

Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
Wow! Congratulations and good luck!

When's the big move?
 

---

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Great news! Congratulations guys!
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
We've been packing pretty intensely since last night. If we kept up this pace, we could be outta here a lot sooner than we need to be, I think. It is hard to tell with moving. When you think you are almost done, you are closer to half-way.

But we have several repairs and fix-ups we want to do, and it will be easier with less clutter. I am hoping we can be up there by the date of close (approximately November 17th.)
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

---

If we kept up this pace, we could be outta here a lot sooner than we need to be, I think.

---

Keep dreaming, honey.

We're planning on moving the week of Thanksgiving.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
^_^
 

---

Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Hey, cool, you too! Congratulations!

Friends of mine had an Australian sheep dog. This dog was intelligent, friendly to friends, but protective as well. My knowledge of dogs is very limited, so I don't know much, but you might want to check the breed out.
 

---

Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
 
I have a friend with two Australian Shepherds and I'd be scarda them if I weren't familiar with the house I was going to and was able to say their names and a 'hey _____' to be able to turn their sort of scary barking, jumping, randomly moving scariness to a more barking, 1/2 jumping (cause they know better), tail-wagging friendliness...

Congrats and All the Best!!

edit: to say it should be more, well, butt-wagging friendliness...

[ October 22, 2006, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: cmc ]
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

---

If we kept up this pace, we could be outta here a lot sooner than we need to be, I think.

---

Keep dreaming, honey.

---

You two are adorable.
 

---

Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Aren't they, though?
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
:pirate:
 

---

Posted by ginette (Member # 852) on :
 
Yeah they are
You really know how to handle a Blanchard mr_porteiro_head
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
I wouldn't reccomend getting a lab as a livestock gaurd dog. Actually, I wouldn't reccomend getting any dog as a livestock gaurd dog that wasn't bred and raised in that type of situation. At least in my area, the breed that is most likely to fit that criteria is Great Pyrenese. I really don't know enough specifics to give you full reasoning, but dogs who haven't grown up in a gaurding situation aren't as ideal.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Breyer, out of curiousity, why would a lab be a bad choice? (The dog I am looking at isn't pure lab, I've only been told he is a lab mix.)

I was reading about Great Pyrenees, and this is what it said:

quote:

---

Working dogs, like the Great Pyrenees, are medium to giant size and are strong, often independent, domineering and difficult to manage. This, together with the immense sizes of many of the breeds, make many of the working dogs unsuitable as a normal family pet or first time dog owners. These dogs require firm control and must be properly trained. Formal obedience training should include a proper socialising program. Training need not be difficult as Working dog breeds are generally quick to learn and intelligent. Some of the working dog breeds are easier to handle such as the Newfoundland dog, the Portuguese Water Dog, the Samoyed and the Saint Bernard.

---

I don't like the sound of that! We are first-time dog owners, are not equipped to do training, and MUST have a dog that is safe around small children. I would much rather have a coyote carry off a goat than have my dog attack my child! As I am looking into the possibility of getting a dog, one of the things I am looking for is a dog that is extremely well behaved with children. That will always come first for me.
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
I really don't have time to do the research that I feel is needed to say what I want to say. Labs or Lab crosses aren't bred or raised in situations where they need to take on responsibility for the herd. They tend (i'm saying tend, obviously not all) to be very active and hyper when young, then lazier and less enthusiastic past five or so. They may or may not develop an attatchement and feel that it's their job to watch the stock. They also might get more attatched to you than you want (that's one I'm not very sure about, though have heard it). I really don't feel comfortable making reccomendations, but something in the working or herding groups is more likely to have that experience. Honestly, you want a dog that already has some working training.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I've been thinking about it, and I'm not sure how worth it it is to me to have a *real* guard dog. My understanding is that just having a dog on the premises barking at strange animals that come near will do a decent job of discouraging trouble-makeing animals.

My sister talked about the need to have a dog, almost any kind of largish dog, out in the country. Say, if I were to need to go outside in the dark (as will probably often happen in the dark northern winter if I am milking) it is good to have the dog nearby for my own safety, or that of the kids. I have also heard that the presence of a barking dog can deter coyotes. I understand that a Lab is not good protection against a burglar, but where we are, that is much less a concern. (Besides, if anyone tried to burgle our home, they'd be sorely disappointed at choice of loot.)

But if I am missing anything important here, please let me know. I want to make the best informed decision I can.
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
Ok, that sounds good. That's always been the point of our "indoor/outdoor" dogs, which have been Airedales. Not that we have stock to protect, but there is a big bark, and that deters just about everything from coming close (except for desperate feral cats, that's a different story). If that's what you're thinking at this point, a lab, or Lab cross isn't a bad option. Something with a bit more fur than a purebred might be nice. Big dogs and lots of land are tons of fun for a kid.
 

---

Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
 
I'd suggest a German Shepherd (pure or mixed). They are *very* good with families and animals they consider "theirs", bred to have protective instincts, intelligent, and have the strength/build to defend when needed. Other working or herding dogs would also be good - they tend to be strong, intelligent, and have protective instincts.

I'd avoid labs - from my experience, they tend to be so full of good cheer that they act stupidly in their exuberance, unless properly trained as working dogs. Also, they don't know when to stop at anything - playing or eating or running around like loons. That being said, labs are also very, very good with children - our current golden lab, Bear, is the same age as my niece (about two), and lets her do absolutely anything to him. I've never been worried to leave her alone with him. But he doesn't actively look after her, the way I've known German Shepherds to do for the children of their families.

If you have very small children, a herding dog (such as an Australian Shepherd) may take to "herding" the kids as they toddle around. Nothing to worry about, though.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Sounds right to me too. I figure even if we got a true guard dog (which would be an investment prone to liability in and of itself) the dog couldn't defend against *all* wildlife problems. I'd rather get a less expensive, kid-friendly dog that does a decent job, even if some critters still get past him. If I were a really serious livestock owner, like if it were my only livelihood, I can totally see getting a *real* guard dog.

quote:

---

Big dogs and lots of land are tons of fun for a kid.

---

Yeah, I'm thinking that will be a really good thing.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Jhai, I was wondering if a German Shepherd might be a good choice. The current owners of this house had a German Shepherd until he got hit by a car.

Although, I have a deep-set irrational fear of German Shepherds. When I was a little child, our Turkish nextdoor neighbors had one that was always kept tied up near his doghouse. He was named Borah, meaning "ThunderDog."

This dog was somewhat unpredictable and scary, at least to us. We would throw something for him to get, and then run up on top of his dog house. He would jump and jump at us, but couldn't reach us up there. (It was a big doghouse.) Then one day he caught up with me and knocked me over. Totally knocked the wind out of me. I was soooo freakin' scared. I never played that game again!
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
Do not get any dog that you think you might be afraid of, or your kids will. Those feelings are not going to go away, and you'll have personality clashes or worse. Also, right now purebred shepherd's are being bred very low to the ground, with hips that do not look substantial, I don't know if they really aren't, though there is an increase in hip displasia and similar cases. I really don't want to totally deter you from a dog, but there is a lot to look into, and it seems you're doing it.
 

---

Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
I have NEVER had a problem with my Great Pyreness showing any kind of agression or any problems with kids (I can show you pictures of my daughter ate age 4 climbing all over my Pyr -- he was very protective of my kids and I felt more comfortable with them around him than any other dog I have owned).

So I'm just saying I disagee with what you read. Just based on the experience of the one I have (and another one I was aquainted with prior -- that convinced me I wanted one).
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Breyer, you really know a lot about dogs! I appreciate your help.

Farmgirl, I do value and take into account anecdotal information. Thank you.
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
I did tons of dog research in 8th grade to convince my parents I wanted a dog of my own (like I said, we've had indoor outdoor airedales most of my life) but I didn't hit 100lbs till 8th grade, and Nikki had, so it was not a great obedience match. So through high school I showed my sheltie in 4-H and did quite a bit of research into the herding breeds, but still caught most of the popular ones too.

I haven't said much about the personalities of Pyrs because the two I've been around have been wonderful, but I know very little of their training, and I'm not even sure how old they were when I saw kids climbing on them.
 

---

Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
I would say that it really depends on your setup. If your animals will be put in sturdy houses or a barn at night, you will have less need of a dog to protect them.

I would be concerned about a lab mix because labs have been bred to be very dependent on their masters. This makes them easy to train, but they may not have the independence to be an effective guard dog. A livestock guard dog (I'm just going to call the LGDs from here on) that has been raised on a farm will naturally patrol the boundaries of his area, without any training on the part of the owner. Generally, they will sleep most of the day and go on alert at night.

That quote about Great Pyrenees, I see as being more applicable in a pet or show situation. On a farm, it's not as much of an issue. All of the Pyrs and Pyr-crosses I've met have been very sweet-tempered dogs. It's useful to do some obedience training, to make the dog easier to handle in off-the-farm situations (such as visiting a vet), but I can testify that it is possible to manhandle a fully-grown, untrained male Pyrenees into a travelling crate to be taken to the vet. Training just makes your life easier in the long run.

I understand the concern about how a dog will behave around small children. Since you should get a dog that has been raised on a farm, there's a good chance that there will be children there. Talking with the breeders of any dog you are thinking about buying will probably help you make your decision. Also, if you can find any other farms nearby that employ LGDs, you can see for yourself how the dog behaves in its home environment.

EDIT to add: I have a two-year-old, and the main thing she has to worry about with our LGDs is getting slimed. They do drool a lot!

--Mel
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Well, I think I will look for opportunities to gain first-hand experience with Great Pyrenees, and keep an eye out for any available.
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
That sounds like a good idea for any type of animal you are looking into.
 

---

Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
 
What about rescuing? I know that there are a lot of dogs that are rescued because of abusive situations, but I know a good number of people (at least 4 - that seems good to me) who have rescued dogs just because their owners passed on or moved?
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
Most if not all rescues will not allow you to keep your rescue outside which is a necessity for a dog to provide deterence at night. Also speaking as someone with a rescued sheltie, Not for first time dog owners. I love him to death, but the little quirks from two years of unknown are unpredictable, I also woudln't put *most* rescues with children of their ages.
 

---

Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
 
Gotcha...

I'm not disputing you but just want to say my experiences.

Couple of those are:

My aunt's got three young boys (now 11, 9 + 5). Their past three dogs have been rescues. Brady (newfinland mix) came to the family when the oldest was 2. He was the most gentle, loving dog. Only thing you couldn't mess with was him when he was eating (the oldest would even try to ride him at times and he'd just look at him and then walk away). They got Hairy (don't know what he is, but he's a furry little dog) and he's just plain crazy but totally loves the boys and you're only in danger of being licked to death. Brady died and they got Buttercup (who's the spitting image of Brady only a girl so a little smaller) and she's just as fabulous with the kids.

My friend Sara rescued an Australian Shepherd about 4 years ago and she's great with the (now) 9 year old and the 2 month old.

I realize these may be special circumstances with special dogs (and I reitterate I'm not disputing you breyerchic04 : ) ) I'm just saying it's possible to find a cool, good with kids dog through rescue. That outside thing, I don't know anything about though, so that could be a real stopping point...
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
Yeah, there certainly are good situations and great dogs coming out of rescues. Ours wasn't, he was surrendered by owners because the wife got a new job outside of the home. He weighed 11 pounds at 22 months, at 24 months he was up to 16, and now he's around 22 (he's 8 and a bit chubby). His coat had been burnt under a grill, he was terrified of men.

The outdoor thing is at least standard in the midwest. Which makes sense because many of their rescues came in from being outdoor dogs that got loose and never made it back to the owners.
 

---

Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Hooray! Good for you! Congratulations! When's your first work party? *grin*
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Heh. Well, we will probably be moving in somewhere around Nov. 17th to 20th.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Someone was just telling me that guinea hens can be protective of chickens. Interesting.
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
I've heard that too, I've also heard that they can be good watch animals because they flip out and go nuts when something they don't know is around. Everytime I've been near them, they're nuts, I'm not sure if it says something about me or them. Annecdote, whenever we drive past the farm my great grandparents owned, you see guinea hens, because they bought ten 70 years ago. Same thing with peafowl and my godmother's old place, except I think it was 25 years ago, and yet many people in our area can't get them alive more than a year.
 

---

Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
"BEWARE OF GUARD GUINEA PIG"
 

---

Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
A more modern take on the guard dog.
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
Guinea hens aren't the same as guinea pigs. They're nuts birds that run en masse and squeal a lot.
 

---

Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Oh. That's very different. Never mind.

/Emily Litella
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
I'd much rather have my kindergartner in a room with a Cavvy than a chicken with no brain (that apparently doesn't taste good either). They are interesting to watch though.
 

---

Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 

quote:

---

What about rescuing?

---

I could put you in touch with the national Pyr rescue organization.

But I was thinking.... (this is to all the others that have joined in this discussion) -- if they decide a Pyr would be too big/too slobbery/etc. or whatever... Do you think an Australian shepherd would make a good second choice?

I have seen them do amazing things with herds, however, they do have a much higher energy level than Pyrs. Any of you own Australian shepherds?

FG
 

---

Posted by ctm (Member # 6525) on :
 
One thing to keep in mind with working breeds is... they like to work. They like to keep busy, and if you don't have a lot for them to do work-wise, they will look to entertain themselves other ways, such as herding your kids or chasing cars and deer.
 

---

Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Hey, I mentioned an Australian shephard upthread. The one I know was friendly and smart and protective of those she owned.
 

---

Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
Yeah -- your post is the one that made me think about it more. I just haven't owned one personally.
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
Yeah, I think the energy thing might be the only issue, but I haven't owned one either, I know most young shelties would go nuts. AJ has, but she's really busy, so I'm not sure if she'll see this.
 

---

Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
Just based on my reading, I would be hesitant about putting an Australian Shepherd, or any other herding breed dog, in charge of guarding a flock. They were developed to work closely with a person to move stock, not to protect the stock from predators.

Herding dogs do not have the same relationship to livestock as guard dogs do. A herding dog has the same goals as his owner, to move certain animals to certain places, whether they want to go or not. His position is inherently aggressive towards the flock, although it is a controlled aggression. A guard dog will see himself as part of the flock, and will only show aggression outward, to something threatening.

There probably are individual herding breed dogs that are perfectly safe to leave unsupervised amongst the animals. I would expect that that would generally only occur in exceptional dogs that had a very strong relationship with their masters, though.

--

All of this is assuming that the LGD is going to be living and working in the same space as the livestock. Another option is to have an exterior fence to contain the dog and keep predators out, and then interior pens to hold the livestock. Then, pretty much any dog that is willing and able to guard a space can be put in the outer area to deter predators. This might be a good solution if there is concern about being able to handle a dog as large as a Pyrenees, but it will be more expensive at first to build all those fences. However, fencing will last far longer than the working life of a giant breed such as a Pyrenees, so eventually it would probably work out to be cheaper. Obviously, it is more cost-effective on a small farm than in a situation where the livestock are out on range. So there's another possible option.

--Mel
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I was reading today about people doing what I hope to do (small-scale livestock) having Great Pyrenees. I must admit, I have been concerned about the large price-tag attached to these animals and if it would really be worth it.

Then I was thinking, surely there are other people out there who are looking for GP for the same reasons I am. What if I got a breeding pair? Why not? Maybe I could make back the money I put into them and then some.

What do y'all think?
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
I think breeding dogs -- especially pedigree-quality -- is not so simple as that. Talk to AJ about it. I also think that finding dogs of breeding quality is going to be both more expensive and more difficult than simply finding ones who will just be working dogs. (As well as the fact that even if the per-dog cost is the same, now you're talking about two instead of one.) Moreover, I wonder if breeding them might not make them (or at least the female) less able/willing to be guard dogs.

A general comment as well. I think it is awesome how excited you are. And while I am not the kind of person who would enjoy all this, you are, and this is so cool! But I keep getting the impression that you are going to bite off more than you can chew, in terms of how many animals you are talking about STARTING with! Not one dog, a breeding pair. Not just chickens, but guinea fowl too. I get that most of this is just thinking aloud, but . . .

I worry because I care. I want this to work for you, because I know it is important.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

---

But I keep getting the impression that you are going to bite off more than you can chew, in terms of how many animals you are talking about STARTING with!

---

We are sooooooo taking baby steps when it comes to getting critters.

Bev and I do this a lot. One of us gets excited about something, and the other one naturally puts on the brakes, even if it's something that we could get all crazy excited about as well.

[ October 24, 2006, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Yeah, I worry about that myself, rivka. The thing is, I am talking about llamas, dogs, and guinea fowl, but that doesn't mean I intend to do all three. On the contrary, I am in my "research phase." I am trying to make the most informed decision possible. (I am researching feral cats as well, thinking about controlling mice.)

Realistically, I will probably start with chickens. Period. But because my dream is to eventually have a multitude of different kinds of animals, I am trying to learn about each one now *enough* to make informed decisions on how to start out. What I learn about goats will effect what I choose to do with chickens. Learning about Dexters cattle will effect what I choose to do with goats. If I find great opportunities earlier than expected, then I want to be prepared. I don't want to pay top-dollar for the things I want/need. I want to find amazing deals. This is how I plan to do it: learn, research, then keep my eyes open.

Porter did the same thing this past year with buying a banjo. He did something like a year of research before shelling out any dough. He bought one banjo, and he is very happy with it.
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Research is a Very Good thing.
 

---

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
Really don't try breeding a litter until you've had a breed for several years. Research is great, but you need to feel comfortable. You aren't going to make money breeding dogs with vet fees, food, and facilities for housing a litter of puppies. People like you are around here the main people buying Pyrs. Someone with a small farm and some sort of white fuzzy animals. It seems a perfect dog will fall in your lap, as they often do to most people.

And chickens are fun.
 

---

Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beverly:
Learning about Dexters cattle will effect what I choose to do with goats.

---

Ooh! That's the breed I want, too. Have you run across the Journey to Forever site? There's lots of good information there, if you scroll down and click on Small Farms in the sidebar.

--Mel
 

---

Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
This thread represents one of the things I like best about HatCrack.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Mel, I read your link. I *love* it! It puts into words so much of what I have been thinking and feeling. I really do hope others will feel this call to return to the ways of small farming. I think it will go a long ways to heal our planet.

quote:

---

The myth of efficiency -- Industrial agriculture claims "efficiency" and cheaper food. But it’s a false promise. In farming, bigger is not more efficient. And if you count social and environmental costs, it’s not cheap either... The situation is clear: Our conversion to industrial agriculture means subsidizing the richest corporations on earth to run a system that eliminates livelihoods, harms communities, poisons the earth, and doesn’t feed the people, either. Maybe you pay a few pennies less for your industrial potato, but the next generation will pay billions more in taxes, to clean up the mess this system creates. This is not "efficiency." -- Turning Point Project

---

quote:

---

Chemical corporations will assure you that plant nutrients are plant nutrients, and they're exactly the same whether they come from soil humus or from a bag of chemicals, and chemical analysis confirms that.

Chemists can often find no difference between organically raised crops and chemically fertilised crops. Cows see a difference though -- they need much less food when it's grown organically, to produce the same amount of milk. Many farmers have confirmed this. "Cows are capable chemists," said the great soils scientist William Albrecht of Missouri. He also said: "Food is fabricated soil fertility."

Wise farmers are small farmers who listen to their cows.

---

quote:

---

If we are concerned about food production, small farms are more productive. If our concern is efficiency, they are more efficient. If our concern is poverty, land reform to create a small farm economy offers a clear solution. The small farm model is also the surest route to broad-based economic development. If the loss of biodiversity or the sustainability of agriculture concern us, small farms offer a crucial part of the solution.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
I hate moving.

That is all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Rivka -- didn't you live in NYC for a while?

---

Yes, but for less than a year. No furniture to move, and the bulk of my possessions stayed in my parents' house all year.

Besides, I was only 18 for a couple months of it.
 

---

Posted by ctm (Member # 6525) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
I'm kicking myself not not doing these projects years ago so that we could enjoy the fruits of them ourselves.

---

I know just what you mean! My (then)husband and I thought the same thing when we replaced the scuzzy carpet in the spacious sunroom of our first house just before selling it, and when we painted over the ugly green exterior of our second house just before selling it, and when we painted the great room of our third house... just before selling it.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
We are here!

My whole body aches. I can't believe how much friggin' work both Porter and I have done. We are *mostly* moved in--at least the important stuff. It is totally bizarre to me that tomorrow is Thanksgiving.

I love this house! The funny thing is, I wasn't really expecting to. I mean, I figured the house would be sufficient for our needs, but if it weren't for the land it is attached to and the location, I wouldn't have picked this house. But the longer I'm here, the more reasons I find to love it! Little things here and there that I like so much better than where we were.

The rain has been coming down and we have been extremely busy with moving in, so I haven't had much chance at all to explore the grounds. That will have to wait.

Things I like:

I have been having lots of fun having woodburning stoves! The comfort and the beauty, ah.... I love the kitchen setup. I love having a playroom where the kids toys can be less underfoot. I love having a separate laundry area (not stuck in a bathroom.) I love having 2 bathrooms rather than the unnecessary 3 we had before. I *love* having a mudroom!!!

And there is something extra-special about looking out my window in the dead of late November and seeing green EVERYWHERE! :big grin:
 

---

Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 


Congratulations! Enjoy post-moving bliss.
 

---

Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
Porter and Mary, I'm so happy for you guys!
It's been a joy to follow along with your moving and following your dream. The house sounds awesome!
I know how much a pain moving is and I'm glad you guys are finally there. Let the unpacking begin!

Your ever fan,
Telp
 

---

Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
I'm glad you are home and settling in comfortably. And hurrah for internet access!
 

---

Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
I'm glad you're having such a positive experience so far. Yay!
 

---

Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I didn't chime in before this, as I have no experience in owning land. My family owns a cottage on a lake in MI, and we have a bit of land with it, but not that much, as we really only went up there for summers as a kid.

I love camping, and being out on the land . I love lakes and ponds, and the place you bought sounds wonderful. MY parents had blackberry brambles outside their house in RI, and the only bad thing about it was all the birds that swarmed them....BEFORE DAWN! I love birds, but there were times I wanted to throw a net over them and kill them all. The brambles were only about 40 feet from the house, so the birds would wake everyone up with their calls.


But the best part about this thread, at least for me, has been reading it once a week and seeing your excitement about the move, and about what the changes mean to you and your family. I know that you talked about doing a lot of things, and you probably won't get to all of them right away, but it was really heartwarming to hear your excitement, and watch as this story unfolded.


I hope that it becomes all that you wanted it to, and more.


Kwea
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I can't believe how much it's raining here. I mean, I know it's supposed to be wet and rain every day and all that, but come on! This has to be a joke on the n00bs.
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Bad news, Porter . . .

It's just a regular November in the Northwest. Enjoy!



Bev, I completely understand every delight in your new home, except the glee at FEWER bathrooms. Clearly, your kids are very different from mine. Or maybe just younger!

Anyway, I'm glad y'all made it ok (if a bit battered), and are enjoying the new place.

Happy Thanksgiving!
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Oh yeah. Today's Thanksgiving. I keep forgetting.
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
*giggle*

For me, it's mostly a day off work. We're doing the turkey thing tomorrow night.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Thanks, all! It has been so much fun to share this with you as well.

I don't know how things will play out with acquiring animals. I can't remember if I mentioned Porter's "6-month-animal-rule" where after getting a certain kind of animal I have to wait at least 6 months before getting another kind. It is probably a very good idea to keep me from going overboard, but of course, opportunities do not come on a semiannual basis!

At this particular moment, I am too focused on moving in to think about getting animals--at least to think about it *much*. I have an opportunity right now to adopt a very nice wether (neutered male goat) that would be a pet and weed-eater. But according to the 6-month rule, if I do that, I have to wait much longer before I can start chickens and therefore before I can have my own eggs! So when I learned a couple days ago that someone else is interested in this wether, I am thinking I will let them have him. I dunno yet. I think I better meet this little guy first before making the decision.

Oh, and yes, it rains here a *lot*. It just makes our house feel all the more cozy!

Happy Thanksgiving, all!
 

---

Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
 
You're making me jealous. Can I come live with you?
 

---

Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
I would by-pass the wether for now. Because you will probably want to start with a female, anyway, so you can eventually build up a herd!

Unless you plan to eat him at some point.... otherwise he is just a lawn mower and pet, and with the 6 month rule, I think you would rather have chickens first.

FG
 

---

Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 

quote:

---

I have an opportunity right now to adopt a very nice wether (neutered male goat) that would be a pet and weed-eater.

---

Wow. It eats weeds and pets.

Convenient.


 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

 

---

Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott R:

quote:

---

I have an opportunity right now to adopt a very nice wether (neutered male goat) that would be a pet and weed-eater.

---

Wow. It eats weeds and pets.

Convenient.

---

 

---

Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
I can't believe how much it's raining here. I mean, I know it's supposed to be wet and rain every day and all that, but come on! This has to be a joke on the n00bs.

---

It's a bit wetter than usual this year, but like rivka said, get used to it.

n00b.


 

---

Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
No kidding.
 

---

Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
beverly, one of my fondest childhood memories is of heating our home with a wood-burning stove. My mother always had a pot of water simmering on the top in back to keep the winter air hydrated. Slow-roasted sweet potatoes, chili ... mmmm.

Porter, it is a little extra-rainy now, but just wait until these rainy months are through. The spring through fall seasons are magnificent -- jewel-toned greens and blues, flowers everwhere, just gorgeous. This is the hunker-down period we use to pay for the highlights.

Do you have the right gear? Thick, tight wool overgarments, a raincover, warm soft undershirts, good boots, etc.? The gear makes allt he difference.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I just heard that so far, this is the third rainiest season ever in the valley. It's good to know.

quote:

---

Do you have the right gear?

---

Not at all.
 

---

Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
Porter, I'm big on scrimping and saving, and I hate -- hate! hate! -- to waste money. Spending money on fads and useless trinkets seems immoral to me.

However, your experience of the Pacific Northwest and you ability to function in it moment by moment is extraordinarily affected by having the proper gear. Dave and I ended up scrounging thrift stores for our basics, and man, am I ever thankful for that investment. [about $50 each]

I would love to help you and beverly figure out what you need and how to do it in a frugal way (rather than just plunking down a lot of money at a sports store) if you are interested -- either by email or here. I even found some good websites.
 

---

Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
Actually, I am going to email your profile address right now about this and something else.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Hmm. My profile address doesn't work right now because of the move.

--baleeted--

[ November 25, 2006, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
 

---

Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
Got it. This is just an idea, by the way.

Thanks.
 

---

Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
Welcome to the Willamette Valley! The sun will be out to say hello sometime in April or May. I've actually not had too many problems with the cold during my time here. Most of the time, a warm jacket and an umbrella has sufficed for me. On the other hand, I never lived on a farm.

If the lack of light gets to you, I recommend getting one of those nifty light boxes. They're no replacement for sunlight, but they do help.
 

---

Posted by Happy Camper (Member # 5076) on :
 
I guess I haven't been paying close enough attention to this thread, I didn't realize you were actually in the valley. I just got here myself a little less than a year ago. It will, indeed, probably rain until mid-April sometime. At least that's what happened last winter, some rediculous number of consecutive days with rain, swollen rivers, the whole nine yards. Seriously, I came out for a visit to look at the school and find an apartment, and it was raining. Hard. I went home, packed up my apartment, drove across the country, spending a nice few days with my parents on the way, and when I got back it was still raining. Hard. It continued to rain for at least the next month. Hard.

Like Shigosei said, the cold is almost certainly not a problem, heck a windbreaker/raincoat has done the job for me. I may have broken out a slightly heavier coat once, but I don't think so, and never touched my heavy winter coat. I hear it snows here from time to time, but I'll believe it when I see it.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Oh my freak! We woke up this morning to a winter wonderland! It is gorgeous out there! I was going to sign my kids up for school today, but school is cancelled. Oh well, I guess they will just have to romp and play in the snow all day....
 

---

Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
That's what my mom told me when she called this morning. One day after I leave Oregon, it snows. Lousy timing.

Have fun in the snow!
 

---

Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
 
Yup! Snow down here! Yay.

I have to drive in it to get to school, though. Not so yay.
 

---

Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
Hi Happy Camper! (previous page)

Wow - haven't seen you around these parts in ages, it seems. How have you been?

Farmgirl
 

---

Posted by Happy Camper (Member # 5076) on :
 
Heh, hiya. Haven't posted in a while. I'm not sure why, just didn't have much to say. I'm good.

Oh, and of course, it snows 2 days after I essentially say I don't believe it ever actually snows here. You wouldn't really know it's been snowing for at least the last 3 hours by looking out the window though.
 

---

Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
I've been trying to look up radar and see kinda where in Oregon this is (since I'm not familiar with the state at all.....) is this near Salem? It's still snowing?

FG
 

---

Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
 
The Willamette Valley is where the snow is, I think. So, between Portland and Eugene-ish is probably where the snow is happening (I don't know exactly - I haven't looked at any radar maps).
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Yes, we are nera Salem, and it is still snowing.
 

---

Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
 
I'm glad to hear y'all are moved in. I'd love to see pictures of the property sometime. Do y'all plan to give it a name?

BTW, I'd definitely choose chickens over goats any day. However, I'd just start with hens. You'll have eggs and you won't have to listen to a rooster crow. They don't just crow at dawn - they crow all day long. All night, too. That's one thing I don't miss about living in rural GA, the stupid roosters.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

---

Do y'all plan to give it a name?

---

quote:

---

If you have very small children, a herding dog (such as an Australian Shepherd) may take to "herding" the kids as they toddle around. Nothing to worry about, though.

---

quote:

---

They don't just crow at dawn - they crow all day long. All night, too. That's one thing I don't miss about living in rural GA, the stupid roosters.

---

This is truth.

I can hear the roosters - which are at least a mile away, by the way - all the live long night. Where'd I put those earplugs again?
 

---

Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
 
I had the sheer luck (Haha) to rent an apartment, in the middle of Rio de Janeiro, in front of a mall, in a very busy street...and there is a neighboring house where the owner raise...chicken and roosters. And it is...just...behind...my bedroom. I may take to shoot noisy roosters for sport.
 

---

Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
But do you really want to get chickens just as winter is coming on? Also, are Chickens really animals, or are they more like plants? If you wait until spring, you can have baby chics! Awwww...
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I have decided to adopt the wether (neutered male goat.) I figure he will be a "practice" livestock animal for me. He will be relatively easy to care for, and if I mess up, it won't have huge reprocussions. That means chickens will come in late spring.

Plus, when I am ready to get a dairy goat, I will feel less need to get two just to keep each other company. Really, this guy should have a companion too, but the home he will have with me won't be any more lonely than the one he is leaving.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Snowball is here! Our darling goat is here!

We'd been talking to the owners of Snowball and let them know that we did want to adopt him, and they were going to come by sometime this week. I was in the shower, and Princess Peach bursts in jubilantly, "Mom! Our very first farm animal is HERE!"

What a cutie he is. I'm so glad that our place is already well set up to accomodate his needs. He will be a *great* practice livestock animal for our family.
 

---

Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Welcome, Snowball. Will he get a screen name here?
 

---

Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
All the Simpson cats were named Snowball.
 

---

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Oh dear! Only here a few hours and already he got his head stuck in the gate! He has horns, so it was particularly tricky. I don't know if he is able to learn from his mistakes in this instance or if it will keep happening.

If Snowball gets a screen name, I think it should be Silly Billy.

I think I will take him on a walk with my kids. That sounds like fun for all. (He has a leash.)
 

---

Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
 

quote:

---

Oh dear! Only here a few hours and already he got his head stuck in the gate! He has horns, so it was particularly tricky. I don't know if he is able to learn from his mistakes in this instance or if it will keep happening.

---

quote:

---

I had the sheer luck (Haha) to rent an apartment, in the middle of Rio de Janeiro, in front of a mall, in a very busy street...and there is a neighboring house where the owner raise...chicken and roosters. And it is...just...behind...my bedroom. I may take to shoot noisy roosters for sport.

---

I feel your pain.

Keep us updated with your scorecard, eh?

quote:

---

I felt that if I was going to be a meat eater, I needed to face the reality of the cost involved.

---