More to come
Posted by PanaceaSanans (Member # 13395) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I really don't get how the currently held theorys about monolithic structures are so widely accepted and so utterly stupid.
You preemptively insult everybody who does not share your point of view, then expect people to participate in a civil discussion? Not a wise move, my friend...
That said, it is an interesting topic, so maybe we can just talk about it without trying to actually convince the respective other of anything (which appears a futile endeavor) and without calling each other names?
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
"So...everyone just caught "giant rock fevor" on several continents at the same time...hey, put down that copper tool and help me move this 90 ton stone...sometimes up mountains...hundreds of miles...no wheels...no problem! Occam grew a beard."
See, in another thread you talk about humans wanting to leave their mark in the world. And here you say you can't understand why they might want to build massive structures that in their eyes would last forever.
People do both silly and wondrous things in the name of religion. And no, it wasn't like one guy turning to another and asking them to help build something. More like the Pharaoh's men coming and saying you've been assigned to a work project, so get to it. And it's commonly accepted now that in lieu of paying their taxes with grain or money, men were required to spend a certain amount of time each year on the Pharoah's projects.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
There are many great theories of how and why monuments were built. There are many places for this conversation to start.
1) Timing. You say, "on several continents at the same time." It wasn't at the same time. There are centuries separating the building of the pyramids themselves, not to mention the building of Stone-Henge vs the Mayan Pyramids. Neolithic Man raised rough cut pillars centuries before their was an Egyptian Pharaoh. Yet these centuries are all apart of that great "Pre-historic" or "BC" time period that some minds lump together into a decade or so.
2) Any quick perusal of Egyptian Pyramids shows an architectural time line, from small and failed to grand, then back down to small, as the power of the Pharaohs and their civil conflicts flowed through world history. It was not, one day the masons of Egypt had trouble building a straight wall, then the next--divinely or alien inspired, they built Giza. No. Facts show a history of pyramid architecture emerging in a very organic way. The pyramids were not built in a month or a day, but over centuries.
3) "It must have been aliens" is an insult. To think that we humans could never be smart enough to do these things is an insult to human kind and I don't like it.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: There are many great theories of how and why monuments were built. There are many places for this conversation to start.
1) Timing. You say, "on several continents at the same time." It wasn't at the same time. There are centuries separating the building of the pyramids themselves, not to mention the building of Stone-Henge vs the Mayan Pyramids. Neolithic Man raised rough cut pillars centuries before their was an Egyptian Pharaoh. Yet these centuries are all apart of that great "Pre-historic" or "BC" time period that some minds lump together into a decade or so.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Dude, what tech do you think "the ancients" possessed that they wasted on building heaps of rock?
The oldest, biggest pyramids are electrically active...at giza they are built on limestone aquifer...in Mesoamerica, they are built on underground lakes, both of which when the rainy season start are charged up.
That they are broken now and that knowledge has been lost is obvious to me, however, that there is more going on here than heaps of rock.
Anyone try and tackle The Pyramid Code?
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I'm NOT saying it is known what was lost, I'm just saying that we don't kno the truth and those who say they do are full of shit.
Posted by Heisenberg (Member # 13004) on :
You heard it here first - Stone Wolf has declared the work of anthropologists who literally spend their lives studying and working on this stuff to be full of shit. Cause, you know, he doesn't understand it.
Pack it in, conversations done.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:The oldest, biggest pyramids are electrically active...at giza they are built on limestone aquifer...in Mesoamerica, they are built on underground lakes, both of which when the rainy season start are charged up...
Um. This is, right off the bat, a load of bull. Nor, I should note, would it make any sense to build a pyramid to generate a charge if you had any understanding of what a charge WAS or how it could be used.
quote:Modern-day equipment can not move this guy...
I think you'll find that this is also untrue. There have also been ample, ample demonstrations of methods by which large stones can be moved.
This sort of thing is usually a reliable indicator when trying to identify whether someone is a quack.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Originally posted by Heisenberg: You heard it here first - Stone Wolf has declared the work of anthropologists who literally spend their lives studying and working on this stuff to be full of shit. Cause, you know, he doesn't understand it.
Pack it in, conversations done.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Stone Wolf, Coursera has some free archaeology courses. If this is the kind of thing you're interested in maybe you should take one and get a sense of what the discipline of archaeology actually entails. That would give you a better perspective for evaluating things you come across online.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Tom...Bagdad battery? Never heard of it?
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I'll give you that there are cranes out there that can handle 1k ton blocks. The current record is over double that.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Stone_wolf, i want you to make two complete lists for us so that we're not just chasing down your "some people say" or "nobody can REALLY prove" shit.
The first list should be "things Stone Wolf believe is true about the ancient structures that modern science/archaeology deny"
The second list should be "things Stone Wolf thinks that are false about the current archaeological record of the ancient structures"
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
like seriously don't just link to sites and say 'there's some stuff in here!'
tell us what things YOU are going to assert.
you basically have to do this because those sites are garbagepiles of psychotic new age conspiracy theory tripe and we're not going to go mining for which parts of the psychotic conspiracy theory tripe you are actually going to stand by.
Posted by zlogdanbr (Member # 13374) on :
quote:
3) "It must have been aliens" is an insult. To think that we humans could never be smart enough to do these things is an insult to human kind and I don't like it.
I personally think: yes it is possible that pyramids occurrence in several different cultures is not a simply coincidence or related to the "collective unconscious". I am not insulted, as a human being, by the mere perspective that aliens were somehow responsible by the pyramids.
A friend of mine, who is a historian, a long time ago explained me how it could be technologically possible that mere human beings have built those structures and that the fact we question it is a simple another typical example of prejudice from the so called European white culture and their disdain over other cultures. I actually bought her explanation back then but today honestly, I am not so sure.
Posted by Heisenberg (Member # 13004) on :
Oh, that school of thought is definitely racist. They did the same thing with Easter Island - the first archeologists to study the ruins and statues there said that instead of Polynesians, the builders must have been inspired by Mayans who learned from forgotten European expeditions, because come on how could brown people come up with those abilities on their own?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Yeah pretty much the vast majority of the time these theories crop up it follows a consistent pattern:
- These ancient primitive exotics have these giant things all over where their exotic primitive culture was
- There's no way these primitive exotics built a giant thing on their own no matter what these people with degrees and comprehensive peer-reviewed research say about the anthropological record
- Fortunately, I, an indigo starchild white person who probably literally thinks I can heal diseases by holding crystals, have figured out what must have actually happened instead and will explain that the giant things were actually alien harmonic ghost thetan engines to indra our chi chakra leylines.
- If only the exotic brown people understood how uplifted their culture once was!
Posted by Heisenberg (Member # 13004) on :
Obligatory Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I have indeed heard of the Baghdad Battery. My observation here is that if you are capable of building such batteries and actually know enough about charge to have a reason to do so, building a giant heap of stone for the same purpose would be idiotic.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
What thread is this coming from?
Posted by Heisenberg (Member # 13004) on :
The XKCD thread.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I will definitely identify my conflicting beliefs in individual deatil...this will take a little time tho, so will be broken up into multiple segments.
Oh and yes...aliens
Posted by zlogdanbr (Member # 13374) on :
Even you say that the pyramids were not build with "alien" help, it does not mean that alien civilizations might exist or that there is a possibility that they visited us.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Belief, Aliens came to our world and, in various cultures, used secret science to build great monuments.
While some say that they also used that secret science to teach some of these primitives agriculture--to grow food for the hungry aliens--they did not teach germ theory, basic physics, nutrition, sanitation, or basic math concepts such as the concept of 0.
As a result the humans they found on earth continued to die horribly, live miserably, and suffer continually.
Conclusion--Aliens are jerks.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
So, I clicked on the link for that series you mentioned in the other thread.
Reading over the show's description, the description of the interviewed cast, the director's biography, the director's media interviews to promote the show and combining that with my first-hand experience of how cable scientific documentaries are made, interactions with legitimate science journalists, media training I've received that included a section on similar programs, and the typical discussion topics of anti-pseudo science bloggers that I know personally, it is my professional opinion that there is no credibility whatsoever in this series. I work in science for realsies. There are red flags the size of Texas in this. Sure, the writer/director/producer believes in what she is selling, but so do conspiracy theorists.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I don't back ANYONE who claims to kno the truth...I feel strongly that the answers that have been provided are incorrect or incomplete...I do understand that I am in a culture of acceptance of the status quo and am working up hill...but mostly I know I haven't presented much yet...this was just a spark off conversation, not something I had planned on discussing at length here, but my big mouth puts me here...so I'll get my stuff together and get back to you all...sorry for not being better prepared Posted by PanaceaSanans (Member # 13395) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I'm NOT saying it is known what was lost, I'm just saying that we don't kno the truth...
I agree with you thus far, and I liked that you said it.
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: ... and those who say they do are full of shit.
But help me out here: If you think you don't know the truth, how do you think you know that nobody else does either? How can you possibly know that all of them are wrong ("full of shit")? There is a good chance that somebody is correct, neh?
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I know I haven't presented much yet...this was just a spark off conversation, not something I had planned on discussing at length here, but my big mouth puts me here...so I'll get my stuff together and get back to you all...sorry for not being better prepared
I'm actually looking forward to it. Truly am. And I appreciate your effort.
As you said, we don't know for sure. Some theories are more likely, others less, but as far as I know, neither has been proven. Which is what makes this topic such an interesting one.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Okay...here's one...
quote: ...Egyptologists believe that the pyramid was built as a tomb over a 10 to 20-year period concluding around 2560 BC.
quote: Most books and encyclopedia state that there are between 2- 2.8 million blocks of stone in the Great Pyramid. These average about 2.5 tons with none smaller then 2 tons. The largest stones range from 9 to 15 tons. We will use a average estimate to work with in number of stones 2.4 million.
Seconds in a year = 31,556,926 x 20 (for twenty years) = 631,138,520
So we have a total of 631,138,520 seconds to work with.
No we divide that by the number of stones
631,138,520 divided by 2,400,000 = 263
263 divided by 60 (sixty seconds in a minute) = 4.38
So every 4.38 minutes a stone had to be quarried, transported and put into place. This had to occur 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year for the entire 20 year span.
This equation, however, does not include the time and labor required to design, plan, survey, and level the 13 acre site the Great Pyramid sits on. Nor does it include the construction time of the ramps needed to put the blocks in place.
Next topic...Great pyramid at Gizza not a tomb...no decorations, no mummies, no nothing...the valley of kings IS a tomb...evidence to follow
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Originally posted by PanaceaSanans: There is a good chance that somebody is correct, neh?
I have my theories, but let's not put the cart before the horse, eh? Posted by zlogdanbr (Member # 13374) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Okay...here's one...
quote: ...Egyptologists believe that the pyramid was built as a tomb over a 10 to 20-year period concluding around 2560 BC.
quote: Most books and encyclopedia state that there are between 2- 2.8 million blocks of stone in the Great Pyramid. These average about 2.5 tons with none smaller then 2 tons. The largest stones range from 9 to 15 tons. We will use a average estimate to work with in number of stones 2.4 million.
Seconds in a year = 31,556,926 x 20 (for twenty years) = 631,138,520
So we have a total of 631,138,520 seconds to work with.
No we divide that by the number of stones
631,138,520 divided by 2,400,000 = 263
263 divided by 60 (sixty seconds in a minute) = 4.38
So every 4.38 minutes a stone had to be quarried, transported and put into place. This had to occur 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year for the entire 20 year span.
This equation, however, does not include the time and labor required to design, plan, survey, and level the 13 acre site the Great Pyramid sits on. Nor does it include the construction time of the ramps needed to put the blocks in place.
great argument man!
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
The blocks are so smooth that you cannot fit a razor blade in between them...and standard archeology says this was done with cooper age tools...Including dolemite, granite and other extremely hard stone, stones are worked with inside cuts, precision flawless cuts that are difficult to duplicate today. ImageAnd HUGE stones, literally on top of a mountain, the quarry miles away Image Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Okay...here's one...
quote: ...Egyptologists believe that the pyramid was built as a tomb over a 10 to 20-year period concluding around 2560 BC.
quote: Most books and encyclopedia state that there are between 2- 2.8 million blocks of stone in the Great Pyramid. These average about 2.5 tons with none smaller then 2 tons. The largest stones range from 9 to 15 tons. We will use a average estimate to work with in number of stones 2.4 million.
Seconds in a year = 31,556,926 x 20 (for twenty years) = 631,138,520
So we have a total of 631,138,520 seconds to work with.
No we divide that by the number of stones
631,138,520 divided by 2,400,000 = 263
263 divided by 60 (sixty seconds in a minute) = 4.38
So every 4.38 minutes a stone had to be quarried, transported and put into place. This had to occur 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year for the entire 20 year span.
This equation, however, does not include the time and labor required to design, plan, survey, and level the 13 acre site the Great Pyramid sits on. Nor does it include the construction time of the ramps needed to put the blocks in place.
Who says they are doing one piece at time in just one place? Pyramid's got four sides. It's big enough for several parallel crews.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:The blocks are so smooth that you cannot fit a razor blade in between them...
Well, no. I've been to Giza. I guarantee you that I can.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
I've never been, but I was surprised how jagged they were in these pics!
quote:So every 4.38 minutes a stone had to be quarried, transported and put into place. This had to occur 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year for the entire 20 year span.
See, this is just bad logic.
It's like saying that since 60 cars arrive in parking lot in a span of 1 hour each morning, that each car's entire journey had to take just 1 minute. Impossible!
That type of oversimplification assumes that the blocks were being carved one at a time, transported one at a time, and set one at a time.
Quarrying blocks with multple parallel teams, bringing them down the Nile in a chain of barges, moving overland in a caravan, and laying the stones at multiple points along the pyramid at the same time... all of those factors confound a simple "let's divide the number of seconds" model.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Tight fitting stones? I've seen reports of some ancient structures that fit that description, but not the pyramids in Egypt.
What I find sad is the thought that, "Since I can't think of a way bronze age people could have done this, well we are just to stupid to do it without help." No we weren't. We were as bright and resourceful then as now. We did organize hundreds of thousands for war, and when war was over, used them for peaceful purposes.
There is also the question of timing.
The first Egyptian Pyramids were built around 2700BC by Imhotep. They were not the 1st pyramids ever, as Babylonians, Sumerians and others had previously built Step Pyramids that the Egyptians copied. Later they smoothed out the steps to be just 1 block each, then smoothed them out with cover stones.
The pyramids of Giza, the big ones we know of, were built 150 years later as the fad was perfected.
What about those other great mysteries.
Stonehenge was 500 hundred years earlier, 3100bc to 2800bc.
The Nazac lines in South America were 2000 years later, 500bc to 500ad.
The pyramids in Mexico, about 1AD.
The mysterious Incan wonders in the mountains of Peru, didn't occur until the 15th century AD. Their empire started in 1438ad, and lasted around 100 years. Those blocks Modern Man can't create were created a lot closer to modern times than to ancient times.
You can't really call them an Ancient wonder when most of the modern cities of Europe were already thriving at the time they were built--unless you believe that since they were dark skinned folks and non-Christian, non-European, then they could never figure things out. Then, of course, it would have to be Aliens.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Actually, the pyramids were designed by aliens, but the work was completed by local contractors who didn't understand the plans. The things were supposed to be portable and roughly eighteen inches on a side.
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
i'm going to watch this entire dumb conspiracy video series about pyramids. i will subject myself to as much of it as i can stand.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Actually, the pyramids were designed by aliens, but the work was completed by local contractors who didn't understand the plans. The things were supposed to be portable and roughly eighteen inches on a side.
That was Stonehenge.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Those amazon.com photos can be pretty tricksy. You have to read the fine print.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I love that Disney has now purchased Stonehenge. Once they're done reconstructing the missing pieces in fiberglass, we'll finally get to experience it as intended.
And there will be better merchandising. Possibly a Star Wars tie in.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
That's brilliant!
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
In ancient times, Hundreds of years before the dawn of history Lived a strange race of people, the Druids
No one knows who they were or what they were doing But their legacy remains Hewn into the living rock, of Stonehenge.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
The Pyramid Code is impressively bad.
It angers me that this bullshit works on anyone. I am legitimately sad that this conspiracy "Could there be something more? Could that something be <completely implausible thing>???" crap actually works on anything.
What the hell, stone wolf.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
You can roll your eyes all you like. You act like you're not aware of what the series is claiming there is evidence for. I mean, if you're aware and you still believe this over historical and archaeological record, then that's its own can of worms.
Regardless, still waiting for your lists.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
And I'm still waiting for part two of the fountainhead summary.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
He built his building HIS way, was happy and everyone loved it. Not compromising or ever listening to the input of any other human pays off in the end because someday people will realize what a genius you are.
I think. It's been a long time since I read that book.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Its interesting that Ayn Rand popped up in this discussion.
Some people want ancients and aliens to hold secrets of the universe, because they want someone, some benign dictator, some God or Alien or Trump to make the world a better place, to help them and end the chaos, to put an order to the universe that we are too small, to stupid, and to young to understand ourselves.
Other people believe that we are the ancients, and the aliens, and the gods that can, with hard work, logic, and reason, put an end to the chaos, put an order to the universe, and understand ourselves. They strive every day to make the world better. Its like Cinderella v.s. Anna. One waits for Prince Charming to rescue her from a life of abuse and drudgery. The other sees what's wrong in the world and works to make it better (stopping her sister Elsa, etc.)
And a shiny few, a very special few, believe that they are God, that they are the One with the secret science and after feeling like an alien in their own world, they except that title.
Alien and alone is their self image.
These Randians believe in themselves and deny caring for anyone else. Social Darwinism is right, all modesty is false, all generosity is a lie, it all gets in the way of their genius.
We may reject them, deny them, get in their way, but they know that in the end the world will bow to their special genius.
Spoiler alert. We won't.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: And I'm still waiting for part two of the fountainhead summary.
or part three of the atlas shrugged summary
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
That too
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
not to be a bother but are we ever going to get this list
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You know we aren't, Sam.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
How about one from the Pyramid Code (which is clear you watched the first ten min of)...
The pyramids are older than widely accepted as evidenced by the eight mile move of the Nile.
The pyramids are not a tomb....as evidenced by the thousands of missing engravings, artifacts...and oh yeah...no mummies.
One cannot carve granite and dolemite with copper tools...have you seen the inside cuts at Ponu Ponku?
The plateau upon which the pyramids are built is an engineering marvel in and of itself, which is almost never talked about or included in time estimates.
There is evidence of tobacco & coca use in mummies...substances that were only found in the Americas.
There is evidence of gold mining in Africa which predate modern-day estimates of human existenceby millennia.
There are energetic pyramids on multiple continents, not always the biggest, but the oldest...
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm particularly interested in this one:
quote: There is evidence of gold mining in Africa which predate modern-day estimates of human existenceby millennia.
Please elaborate. Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I must have had that one wrong...I'm seeing 100k-200k bc...On lots of conspiracy type sites...sorry
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I think you'll find that you have them all wrong.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I'll look each up
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
These are pictures of what the walls look like in an Egyptian tomb...
Here we see not a single engraving, not a single name, the walls are smooth.
[ September 24, 2016, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Stone_Wolf_ ]
Posted by CT (Member # 8342) on :
The first image is from one of the temples of Abu Simbel, not a tomb? Where is the second image from?
I'm confused.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Ug...I'm bad at this
Posted by CT (Member # 8342) on :
By the way, I really am lost. Like, not making fun of you or needling you, just unclear on the whole thing. Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Oh thanks CT...I knew that...you are one of, if not, the kindest posters we have here.
I was merely frustrated bc I searched specifically for tombs...and still missed...and then didn't kno the difference.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
For this kind of thing, maybe avoid Google images, because you never know how precise someone was being when they tagged the image. Try just searching for a scholarly article. Look for a reliable source & then see what illustrations they used?
This helps by checking to confirm your beliefs were right, too. If it is hard to find scholarly articles with detailed carvings in the isolated tomb chambers, it might be because it was less common than you think.
I would go looking for you, but I'm on battery 9%. Be out for a bit.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
The other issue with differences in decoration/carvings is that the pyramids and the other tombs you're looking for were not from the same time periods. Styles come and go. The tombs in the Valley of Kings are I think from around 1000 years after the pyramids. Just because they're all "Egyptian tombs" doesn't mean they're all going to be alike -- again, think of the difference in cultural practices in European royalty over the span of 1000 years.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I must have had that one wrong...I'm seeing 100k-200k bc...On lots of conspiracy type sites...sorry
That's the thing. The Pyramid Code documentary is made by a conspiracy type person, appealing to that market, and trying very very hard to masquerade as a normal documentary to gain credibility among people who don't really know anything either way about pyramids, or archaeology (which includes me), so they don't know what questions to ask or why it's bunk or have any knowledge besides knowing that the Egyptian pyramids are ancient wonders of the world, about 3000 years old, contain dead pharaohs, and a rather obscene number of the artifacts can be found in the British Museum (heh).
One of the dead giveaways that this documentary isn't legitimate is the interviews section of the website.
All of the interviews are with New Age Woo radio, some of which are 2 to 3 hours long (indicates disorganization, lack of editing and desperation for content). There are no discussions with the BBC or NPR, the latter of which is easier to schedule than you think, given the number of college-affiliated stations with local programming.
It is extremely unusual to put the researchers' favorite crackpot theories in their biographies:
quote: Walter researches celestial mechanics, theoretical archaeo-astronomy, and the binary theory of precession of the equinoxes. [...] He founded the Galileo Awards to stimulate research into precession and help in the search for our Sun's binary companion.
quote: John's work is forcing the rewriting of historical chronology.
quote: His conviction is that pyramids around the world represent a much older global culture than history reflects.
quote: Claude has researched material that has been largely ignored by mainstream Western science describing aspects of subtle energy and its applications to psychotronic devices. Claude prides himself in going outside academia's box to explore the energetics behind seemingly impossible phenomena. He explores and does scientific studies on torsion field physics, metaphysical events, and energy healing.
quote: His groundbreaking Orion Correlation Theory suggested that the Giza pyramids correspond to the Belt of Orion. This shook traditional assumptions revealing that the ancient Egyptians had knowledge of cosmology.
quote: John presented scientific evidence that the old-world engineers understood how to magnify naturally-occurring electromagnetic fluctuations of the Earth to enhance plant yield. This is where megalithic structures were built. Some of these sites remain active and effect the human psyche by magnifying natural elesctormagnetic energies by several hundred percent.
quote: John is an avid research of ancient cultures and believes that some pre-dark age civilizations may have known of natural electromagnetism and other fundamental forces that affect man.
quote: Laird subscribes to the thesis of a single benevolent advanced source for civilization.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I'm not communicating well...I enjoy watching documentaries of alternative history theory...few are gems...few are utterly laughable...most have interesting bits in a bunch of wild speculation.
The ideas I have been discussing don't come from one source...they are the bits I think likely...
To put this into perspective...we are talking about conspiracies and deeply held cultural assumptions. For the former...there's NOT going to be proof...unless it's a FAILED conspiracy.
I look at them more like a meta study...looking for patterns that make sense to me.
One thing I've learned is to look to the outcome to determine the motivation...IF there are facts that are repressed, there must be a reason, seems like a lot of hard work for a hobby.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: How about one from the Pyramid Code (which is clear you watched the first ten min of)...
The pyramids are older than widely accepted as evidenced by the eight mile move of the Nile.
The pyramids are not a tomb....as evidenced by the thousands of missing engravings, artifacts...and oh yeah...no mummies.
One cannot carve granite and dolemite with copper tools...have you seen the inside cuts at Ponu Ponku?
The plateau upon which the pyramids are built is an engineering marvel in and of itself, which is almost never talked about or included in time estimates.
There is evidence of tobacco & coca use in mummies...substances that were only found in the Americas.
There is evidence of gold mining in Africa which predate modern-day estimates of human existenceby millennia.
There are energetic pyramids on multiple continents, not always the biggest, but the oldest...
So which of the lists is this, and is it the complete list of that requested list?
What is an 'energetic' pyramid?
What might happen to a tomb that you can think of to cause the tomb to not have mummies and artifacts in it?
Why can you not carve granite and dolemite with copper tools, when it is possible to carve granite and dolemite with stone tools?
What is a "Ponu Ponku?"
What evidence exists for the eight mile move of the Nile that makes the current dating of the pyramids' construction wrong?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Can anyone debunk this?
this is a serious question: why would anything from this source ever become something you consider needing to be debunked?
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Public statements made by a presidential candidate & a sitting president quoted by an unknown source seem akin to thinking that etsy.com is the source of this tee shirt's equation.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Are you going to respond to my post about the carvings in the pyramids or nah?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Public statements made by a presidential candidate & a sitting president quoted by an unknown source seem akin to thinking that etsy.com is the source of this tee shirt's equation.
A t-shirt is not a source. It is a product that can have pretty much any statement printed on it that you want to sell. It does not have any inherent credibility.
You have pointed us to a meme resourcing site with an image on it from another blog from a thing where you can sign up with a sketchy site to have catfacts texted to your phone. Again, why does something from here even really need to be debunked? It isn't making any inherently credible statement and the particulars of it could be looked up re: jimmy carter's public statements.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: The other issue with differences in decoration/carvings is that the pyramids and the other tombs you're looking for were not from the same time periods. Styles come and go. The tombs in the Valley of Kings are I think from around 1000 years after the pyramids. Just because they're all "Egyptian tombs" doesn't mean they're all going to be alike -- again, think of the difference in cultural practices in European royalty over the span of 1000 years.
This a bad analogy...it wasn't just a head of state's grave marker...this is the state religion...one of rebirth...literal rebirth...we are told...
The great pyramid is built on an aquifer...the different stones act as insulators/conductors...the granite can ionize the air in the chanbers...it's a big mechine...which is why when it was first opened there was salts covering the walls...the rooms, passageways and "airshafts" are not designed for human comfort...like the halls in Eros in EG.
Look folks...I understand I'm not convincing anyone if anything, but Egyptology has a long history of pre deciding the meaning and simply discarding evidence that doesn't fit the theory.
SOMEONE watch the vids...so much of the good stuff IS explained better than I'm managing
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:This a bad analogy...
I don't think you understand how much time 1000 years actually is.
So, you're not going to respond in any meaningful way. Got it.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: SOMEONE watch the vids...so much of the good stuff IS explained better than I'm managing
I have watched the videos. We must be able to account for what coherent claims from the video exist that YOU would like to assert are credible and should be addressed. We can't guess these things for you. It's really important that you finish the list first before we can really get anywhere. Otherwise, this thread is going to be hopeless.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Like at the moment I am not even really sure you understand what claims the Pyramid Code is even making. That's not even apparent to us yet.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Can anyone debunk this?
At a guess, most things that people see that they claim are UFOs (that are not imagined, a form of attention seeking, faking, or mental illness) probably involve tests of spy satellites and military aircraft that the USA would have preferred not to be public in the midst of the cold war. Revealing that probably would involve revealing classified capabilities.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Additionally not all of what is written in that catfacts meme (...) is true as written. There's a Wikipedia page documenting what Carter actually saw and what he reported it probably was based on its motion. It was a UFO in the strictest sense, I.e., "oh I see something in the air and dont know what it is"
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Public statements made by a presidential candidate & a sitting president quoted by an unknown source seem akin to thinking that etsy.com is the source of this tee shirt's equation.
I feel terrible for any science student who receives this shirt because their aunt decided they were "nerdy".
Please buy your physics nerd friends this shirt instead.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: So, you're not going to respond in any meaningful way. Got it.
This seems unfair...there are a lot of folks w questions in this unplanned & ill conceived thread of mine...you are going to have to be more patient than that if you wanna play.
I mean, look at Samp...when he feels I did not answer in a fulfilling way he asks again.
I have every intention of answering all questions, but please keep in mind the following:
A. I have limited time
B. I am an expert on a couple of topics, archeology & Egyptology are NOT those topics.
C. We are discussing, what I believe, is an active conspiracy...I.e. there will be NO proof...this detective work.
D. These are my private theories of the world, I stuck my big foot in my big mouth and challenged the accepted timeline as represented by a humorous cartoon and ppl had questions is the bastard conception of this unintended glimpse into my worldview.
2. I am flat out wrong about 33% of the time.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
It's not a question of patience. You could have said you didn't have time to research it yet, and I would have waiting patiently. But if you think what you said was a response or a discussion, you're wrong.
My point is that why should people spend time debunking additional things you post when you just keep throwing things up instead of discussing the claims you've already made? CT and I both responded to the pyramid decoration issue, amaze responded to the pyramid code video, and instead of engaging with those responses that you got, you threw up the thing about Carter and aliens. If you keep jumping around asking people to "debunk" additional things instead of actually discussing the ones people try to talk to you about, it looks like you're trying to distract from something you have no response to.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Samp...if you watched the vids, you MUST know what an electrically active pyramid is! Merely a pyramid THAT PRODUCES ELECTRICITY. Like the great one at giza, or the Mayan? one sitting atop of a series of cenotes, or underground lakes.
Moving water produces a current...
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I needed to be sure I understand what you meant by an "energetic pyramid" because there is no end to the (delusional) claims about what makes the pyramids special or spiritual or supernatural. "energetic" could have meant electricity, or with harmonic sound energy, or crystal georesonance, or psychic, or it might connect to the sun burning inside the hollow earth. There are literally hundreds of new age conspiracy theories about what the pyramids 'actually' were, in a hazy netherworld of pseudoarchaeology, pseudohistory, and pseudscience. We have to know specifically what you are talking about because these things are especially vague claims to begin with even before I have to account to that you describe them vaguely and with offhand recollection of whatever sources you have imbibed.
In this case, you mean that the pyramids physically produce electricity. What is your understanding as to how the pyramids created electricity? What is your understanding as to how moving water produces a current or how it could be harvested? What evidence exists that shows us that the pyramids were or were part of a mechanism for harvesting or creating energy?
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Oh honey. Not the same kind of current.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
SW, do you realize how massively impractical a pyramid is for producing current? Especially if you actually have access to running water and know a) what current is and b) how to produce it?
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Lost/protected tech...speculation flourishes...googling "gixa power plant" brings up fifty bawgillion different theories...hydrogen down one shoot...liquid O2 down another...goodness knows...this is where some hipwaders come in handy...that's why this is a hobby of mine and not the topic of my ground breaking best selling book.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I am also NOT an electrical engineer (tho I drafted for one for a bit)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Think about it for a second, SW. Think about why WE don't try to generate electricity by pouring liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen down separate chutes made of granite blocks.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Think about how you produce liquid oxygen and hydrogen. Think about what kind of containers are needed to store them. Any civilization that could produce liquid oxygen would have much better ways to generate electricity.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Lost/protected tech...speculation flourishes...googling "gixa power plant" brings up fifty bawgillion different theories...hydrogen down one shoot...liquid O2 down another...goodness knows...this is where some hipwaders come in handy...that's why this is a hobby of mine and not the topic of my ground breaking best selling book.
So you really just have no idea how a pyramid was supposed to have created electricity, it's just something you have seen someone say on the internet at some point. You can't really answer in any meaningful capacity what you are talking about when I ask you what an energetic pyramid is.
Are you starting to understand why I asked you for those two lists?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Also, check out this dude who made a hobby out of moving heavy blocks of concrete by himself with only levers and rope, no pulleys. The first link is a video segment showing him moving stuff and dropping his first upright for a concrete Stonehenge replica in his backyard. The video shows him demonstrating on a concrete pad, undoubtedly because it's easier and more dramatic, and lets him use a smaller fulcrum, but when it shows him moving a barn with the same technique it's over grass. The second link is his website, with more details and lots of pictures. He calculates he could build the great pyramid at Giza in 25 years with a crew of 800 pulling 40 hour work weeks with his technique, no ramp needed. They'd pull the blocks directly up the sides of the pyramid and through the gallery. He thinks the "air shafts" were channels for ropes used in construction.
Like, everyone check it out, not just SW. It's pretty cool.
I will! Thank you! This is exactly the feed back I can wrap a hemisphere around.
Can't today, but I will watch before I post here again.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Cool. To be clear, the clip is like, 6 minutes. Not saying you have time, just saying it's not some 2 hour thing.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Second vid won't load on phone...will laptop later
The first one was quite interesting...however notice his technique only worked on a hard surface...my brother...Stone_Henge_ was built w stones hundreds of miles? away, I'm not certain it would work w/o top notch roads
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
So, did you notice where I addressed that in my post?
quote:The video shows him demonstrating on a concrete pad, undoubtedly because it's easier and more dramatic, and lets him use a smaller fulcrum, but when it shows him moving a barn with the same technique it's over grass.
Just because he's doing it on a hard surface doesn't mean it only works on a hard surface. He didn't move the barn over a hard surface, it's clearly moving over a field. On the 2nd link, which is his website, it specifies it's a muddy field so he had to go pretty slowly. If he'd done it when the ground was frozen, he would have been able to go faster.
(Also, you probably shouldn't call people with gender neutral names "brother." Just sayin'. )
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
my bro eljay, my dude, my man, my masculine entity, my male, my stamen-bearing androecium flora structured dude friend guy, how's it hanging brother with a robust sexual dimorphism, how's your dude man things that you are doing *high fives repeatedly* yo we were thinking of doing a bunch of dude stuff like wrestling and math you wanna come *does a kickflip out of the thread*
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
My brother "Stone_Henge_"
We call him Hengy.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
That WOULD work on frozen ground.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
It would also work on non-frozen ground with a rock the size of a softball instead of the 1" one he was using. With a couple the size of basketballs, you could move the monolith stones over rough terrain. Just think of how much more teetery a book would be balanced on a tennis ball vs a superball. It's the same principle, you just have to scale up.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Stone_wolf, i want you to make two complete lists for us so that we're not just chasing down your "some people say" or "nobody can REALLY prove" shit.
The first list should be "things Stone Wolf believe is true about the ancient structures that modern science/archaeology deny"
The second list should be "things Stone Wolf thinks that are false about the current archaeological record of the ancient structures"
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I am not that organized
Posted by CT (Member # 8342) on :
Stone_Wolf_, I think you might have a sort of intuitive approach to understanding the world. You're a Big Picture guy, right? And you want people to watch the movie because -- I think -- you found it overall to be convincing in feel, and you think others will, too?
I think a lot of the people in this discussion aren't just Big Picture thinkers. I think several of us are both detail-oriented and the kind of people who find it difficult to overlook inconsistencies or errors of fact for the Big Picture view. In fact, I suspect many of us react to errors in the details with suspicion about the overall reliability of the Big Picture claims.
You "are not that organized" and so (I think) you don't necessarily approach evaluation in a step-by-step, methodical way. That's not something you have to change. It might be, however, that discussion about whether something is convincing won't work between you and people who are that organized and methodical when they are engaged in evaluation.
For me, I can't get past hand-wavey bits (or errors of omission or commission) to see the Big Picture -- it's all built up from the details. So when you ask me to watch the tape, all I can think as I'm watching is, "but what about . . .? and haven't you . . .?
I think this is a recipe for frustration. I really do. That doesn't mean the conversation wasn't started in good faith, and I think it can be ended in good faith if anyone chooses, too.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Thanks CT!
I suspect you are correct.
I had intended to answer all questions, but I really never intended my suspicions to be publicly aired...safe to say I have some out there beliefs and chalk it up to my well rounded charm...heh.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
so what do we do to convince you that you shouldn't trust things like the Pyramid Code because they fail very basic tests of credibility and promote entirely false views at the expense of real scientific and anthropological knowledge
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Why is that important to you?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
At the end of the day, we like you and want you to be less wrong.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Thank you Tom.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
We got to turn Pyramid Code into a drinking game, at least.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
The narrator's questions are a bit...hmmm...shall we say...wildly speculative
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: What might happen to a tomb that you can think of to cause the tomb to not have mummies and artifacts in it?
Why can you not carve granite and dolemite with copper tools, when it is possible to carve granite and dolemite with stone tools?
What is a "Ponu Ponku?"
What evidence exists for the eight mile move of the Nile that makes the current dating of the pyramids' construction wrong?
There is a difference between a looted tomb and an the internal spaces of a broken engine...
Yes, I know the sourse is questionable...but the physical location should be accurate.
The 8 mile Nile drift is covered in the Pyramid Code...which you watched so... Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Ok so in that response you only really answered one of the questions.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I missed dolimite...but I hit the others...by my standards at least, heh
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
So, please, address them substantively.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
It isn't that copper tools straight up WON'T cut these hard stones...it's that the stones in question have flat plains on inside cuts, with zero chisel marks. Basically, one does not achieve the result one finds @ Puma Punku w/o powered tools.
Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
Believe it or not, power tools would leave marks too. It's polishing/sanding that gets rid of marks, whether they were made by hand tools or power tools.
And while sanding can be sped up with power tools, it can still be done with lots of elbow grease and patience. Especially on something like sandstone.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote: AA: “This surface is as smooth as a table top, like in your kitchen. There’s no wave to it. This was machined.”
The sandstone and andesite stones at Pumapunku would have been easily worked with the most basic stone working tools, the idea that diamond tipped power saws were needed is ridiculous. The red sandstone was relatively soft and easy to work with, and even though andesite is pretty hard, because of the way it cooled it could be easily flaked off using stones as soft as 5.5 on the Mohs scale. Such pounding stones were found all over andesite quarries in the area.
Contrary to Ancient Aliens’ claims that archeologists are baffled by Pumapunku, Archeologists know the basics about how Pumapunku’s stones were cut and shaped. This is partly because there is evidence for this all over the site itself.
They actually used a method that almost all ancient stone workers used. They used hard -pounding stones to pound out troth like depressions; later on they used flat stones and sand to grind the stone to make a polished surface. We will see later on that this is also how the Egyptians, 1000’s of years before this, made their flat surfaced granite monuments like obelisks.
Sand, as we will see later when we look at Egypt, has extremely hard particles in it and, if placed between a flat surface and a rock, can polish even the hardest stones known to man. In fact, the harder the stone is the better it can be polished using sand.
We will also see that how sand can turn a piece of copper into a very efficient granite saw or granite drill – a method which the Egyptians utilized quite well.
Some stones at Pumapunku that Ancient Aliens would never show the cameras are the ones that were in the middle of this process. They show that at the same time a stone was being pounded by stone hammers, which created these troth like depressions, the grinding and polishing was taking place on the other end of the stone. Unfinished stones like this one clearly show how they were shaped – and it wasn’t with lasers.
There is also unmistakable evidence of stone hammers having been used in the places that were never meant to be visible, like where certain stones would be connected with one another. And because of that, it’s hard for me to believe Eric Von Daniken’s next claim, because it would mean that the alien tool box had a laser gun right next to a stone hammer.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Hmmm...I'm having difficulty articulating my reaction...but conflicted is part of it.
Regardless, I appreciate the intent and efforts of posters contributing.
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Be out for a bit.