Hey everybody. I know pretty much everything about Star Wars, which is why my mom and dad are proud of me and rarely bother to talk about my development stages anymore. You can ask me anything about Star Wars and I will enlighten you with the best possible answers about Star Wars.
A couple things to lay down before we begin, though:
1. In the case of any inconsistent or ambiguous canon, I myself am able to tell you what the truth of the matter really is, without a doubt. Kind of like if I had a ministerial position in my (obviously correct) individual sect of Starwarsology.
2. In any case in which I and Wookiepedia disagree, I am correct and Wookiepedia is terrible.
Vaishnavism is a pile of lies. Now, let us begin.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
I've skimmed the surface of Star Wars novels, enough to know there was a big invasion by Chinese aliens, but I've never read any of the books in that story line. Are any of them worth it?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
The Yuuzhan Vong were the inevitable byproduct of an extended universe already jam-packed with biggerer, deadlier, more fiercer wars and enemies, desperately trying for the next big deadlierest biggererest war to continue filling every nanosecond of the original trilogy character's lives with comic book pulp, ad infinitum.
To that end, the Yuuzhan Vong were the biggererestest worsterest most deadliererest force ever encountered! They launched the largererestest force and killed "365 trillion sentients" across the galaxy. They were the creepiestest and most other-iest!!
If you can, like, go back in time and remember reading the painfully adolescent adventures of luke, han, kyp durron, the new republic, et al, and you think this was an enjoyable thing and you want more of it and you are literally 15-18 years old irl it would probably be a great idea to read through the Yuuzhan Vong war books. As is though I do not regret its abolishment into non-canon.
fun fact about the Vong: Canderous Ordo likely was among the first to encounter them.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
Why does Obi Wan call Vader by the moniker "Darth" in the first movie. Is there a canon explanation for this? From the second movie onward, Darth is a title, but none of the Sith are ever referred to in this manner again.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
What about that time when Picard became a Borg. Was he ever really freed of their influence? There were a few allusions to the fact that his judgement might still be impaired.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
Why can John Carter jump so high?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Herblay: Why does Obi Wan call Vader by the moniker "Darth" in the first movie. Is there a canon explanation for this? From the second movie onward, Darth is a title, but none of the Sith are ever referred to in this manner again.
Darth is a common title among Sith, yes. Like Sidious and Maul (and a skillion others before), Anakin adopted the Darth title in front of his new sith name. Obi-Wan was aware by this time of Anakin's new name and title.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Herblay: What about that time when Picard became a Borg. Was he ever really freed of their influence? There were a few allusions to the fact that his judgement might still be impaired.
He's Goku.
quote:Originally posted by Herblay: Why can John Carter jump so high?
Goku.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by Herblay: Why does Obi Wan call Vader by the moniker "Darth" in the first movie. Is there a canon explanation for this? From the second movie onward, Darth is a title, but none of the Sith are ever referred to in this manner again.
Darth is a common title among Sith, yes. Like Sidious and Maul (and a skillion others before), Anakin adopted the Darth title in front of his new sith name. Obi-Wan was aware by this time of Anakin's new name and title.
Yes, but in subsequent movies he's called Vader. Darth Sidious is never called by the moniker "Darth". Nor is Maul. I know it's a title, but it is never used the same way after the first film.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
Why midichlorians?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Herblay: Yes, but in subsequent movies he's called Vader. Darth Sidious is never called by the moniker "Darth". Nor is Maul. I know it's a title, but it is never used the same way after the first film.
Darth Sidious isn't even referred to as Sidious in the original trilogy, only by the title of the Emperor. Sith lords do this. They love adopted names and sinister titles and often appoint themselves with the title Darth as a challenge to other sith. The title of Darth seemingly has a history that drifts back further than the giant wall that is the Rakatan Infinite Empire, so there's a point to its ubiquity among dark force users. Vader stuck with Darth. Palpatine just liked Emperor once he effectively took over the whole republic, so he used it primarily. But he probably still held the title of Darth as well.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Herblay: Why midichlorians?
Because Lucas had become a dumb hacky writer and threw the midichlorians in as a easy-mode, crutchy way to exposit Anakin's significant inborn power/potential as a number on a device that Qui Gon could explain to a child (the audience is also the child). Whoa! Anakin has more of the midiwhatsits. Over nine thousand midiwhatsits! That's a lot of midiwhatsits. The boy is special. Did you catch that, audience? Pandering!
It was, in his fashion, something which significantly undermined greater mythos and metaphysics for the star wars universe just to punt his way through a plot point about Anakin.
Since I know for a fact that midichlorians will be consequently handwaved away forever now because they were so bad and created a ton of plot holes, the new explanation is that Qui-Gon was becoming a bit of a weird old man and had started to fall in with some unorthodox fringe beliefs, like your crazy Scientology-dabbling uncle and his various emails to you about the dangers of fluoride and health benefits of omega tryptophans or eating placentas or whatever.
So he got really invested in this alt-bio Midichlorian Hypothesis and was totally sold on it and was talking it up excitedly to Anakin but most everyone else was either rolling their eyes at ol' quigon or just humoring the dude. Meanwhile, back at the jedi temple yoda was like 'quigon, talk about this midichlorian shite we must' and qui-gon was all like 'look, it's really true. I loaned you a copy of Jedinetics, right? Chapter four detailes how an orgone meter can reveal subtle pulses of quantum emotional power that' and yoda was all like 'up shall the hell be shut' and it just goes on from there.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
The Clone Wars Animated Series: canon or not?
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by Herblay: Why midichlorians?
Because Lucas had become a dumb hacky writer and threw the midichlorians in as a easy-mode, crutchy way to exposit Anakin's significant inborn power/potential as a number on a device that Qui Gon could explain to a child (the audience is also the child). Whoa! Anakin has more of the midiwhatsits. Over nine thousand midiwhatsits! That's a lot of midiwhatsits. The boy is special. Did you catch that, audience? Pandering!
It was, in his fashion, something which significantly undermined greater mythos and metaphysics for the star wars universe just to punt his way through a plot point about Anakin.
Since I know for a fact that midichlorians will be consequently handwaved away forever now because they were so bad and created a ton of plot holes, the new explanation is that Qui-Gon was becoming a bit of a weird old man and had started to fall in with some unorthodox fringe beliefs, like your crazy Scientology-dabbling uncle and his various emails to you about the dangers of fluoride and health benefits of omega tryptophans or eating placentas or whatever.
So he got really invested in this alt-bio Midichlorian Hypothesis and was totally sold on it and was talking it up excitedly to Anakin but most everyone else was either rolling their eyes at ol' quigon or just humoring the dude. Meanwhile, back at the jedi temple yoda was like 'quigon, talk about this midichlorian shite we must' and qui-gon was all like 'look, it's really true. I loaned you a copy of Jedinetics, right? Chapter four detailes how an orgone meter can reveal subtle pulses of quantum emotional power that' and yoda was all like 'up shall the hell be shut' and it just goes on from there.
I actually really love this explanation. Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: The Clone Wars Animated Series: canon or not?
Well as far as EU goes, it's as canon as anything else, honestly.
However, with the great canon purge, genndy tartakovsky's "every jedi is now a walking samurai jack battle-god forever" clone wars animated series' is now in "legacy" former canon. Clone Wars the CG animated series, as well as the CG movie, remains canon.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
In your opinion, what's the worst segment of holiday special?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
that part where leia awakens the force and uses her coke nail as a lightsaber to fight Sin from FFX
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
actually i'll definitely go with itchy's perverse dream of Diahann Carroll.
both answers are interchangeable though because we're talking about a tv special so bad that the man who made and released 'attack of the clones' wants every copy of it burned, so any part that is indecipherable from an acid trip also containing the Sun Crusher is legit
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Who is better: Jar Jar Binks or TK421?
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
The Rakatan Infinite Empire? I must know more!
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
I don't remember that part with Princess Leia. I do remember her not being able to hit all the notes in her song though...
And the Itchy dream was the correct answer. I was testing you.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Who is better: Jar Jar Binks or TK421?
TK421 never dragged a movie down with his sheer minstrel-show hideousness, did he. Obvious winner.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by advice for robots: The Rakatan Infinite Empire? I must know more!
once upon a time in the deep dark recesses of history there was a race called the rakatans. they turned out to be more inherently adept at the force than practically any other race, and they knew force sensitivity as a way of life. eventually they were so intertwined with force use that they were able to integrate the force into their technology, creating amazing works of technological supremacy that was powered by and controlled by the force. their clear superiority in the realm of force powers and technology engendered a drive to conquer. and conquer they did, swatting aside any challenge to their complete and total hegemony.
eventually they ruled over the entire galaxy. all other races were their slaves. none could resist their power. one theory about the ubiquity of humans is that they were either the rakatan's favored slave race, or were engineered whole cloth to be perfect easy-to-maintain servants. The common language of the galaxy could have at one point just been rakatan, or an overarching slave dialect, thus ensuring its commonality across all the spiral arms. they also seem to have disposed of any races they came across that weren't terribly useful to them, which provides an interesting theory as to the remaining mostly-bipedal-homogeneity of most races and how interesting it is that so many of them resemble humans in some way.
a spasjillion years passed, or whatever. then, a plague erupted and spread through the infinite empire. it wrecked the rakatans. it spread insidiously and unstoppably across worlds. was it an organic plague? engineered? a force curse? nobody really knows for sure. it killed a lot of them and the rest were left bereft of their previous force capacity.
so they weren't masters of the force anymore.
which meant that they couldn't even use their own technology.
there was a pregnant pause.
then all their slave races rose up and kicked the crap out of them. nearly none survived. it was a miracle any survived at all. rakatan society and culture was effectively eradicated and the races of the galaxy began to grow in their own directions from this starting point of recent liberation and the collapse of the infinite empire.
sometimes rakatan technology is found intact. it's problematic. it can cause problems.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Is Rebels going to suck?
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
How many clones fought in the Clone Wars?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Is Rebels going to suck?
Oh yeah, no, no, not at all. It's going to be remembered as the most poignant, incredible and cerebral hard science fiction yet made. Might be a little bit inaccessible to people who haven't gotten caught up with Stanislaw Lem or Hume's empiricism.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer: How many clones fought in the Clone Wars?
2.2 Enoughs
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
How is non vacuum outer space explained? Is there anything in Star Wars about their Universe's laws of physics?
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
What about the new movie? Abrams is known for digging into existing source material but denying that he's doing it up until a movie releases. Will we see Thrawn? If so, how will they justify the time difference, being that Episode VII is set thirty years after Episode VI?
If not Thrawn, is there some other (really good) source material that he might draw from? I'm assuming that (if used) the Solo twins will probably be in their late teens or early twenties.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Thanks for the rundown on the Rakatan. But if Star Wars is set a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, how are there humans now in the Milky Way?
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
How much more money can be milked from this franchise?
How long before we get an episode IV reboot?
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
What happened to Jar Jar after Episode 3? I know he was in the senate, but after the senate was overthrown I have to assume Sidious did something to him?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Szymon: How is non vacuum outer space explained? Is there anything in Star Wars about their Universe's laws of physics?
The hard scifi answer could be that there's just sound transmission in vacuum and/or technology that provides sound feedback to pilots.
The soft scifi answer would be something the force because silent space battles is boring.
Either way space is still probably still very vacuumous. Vacuumitudinal. Plo Koon was better than vacuum though so
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Herblay: What about the new movie? Abrams is known for digging into existing source material but denying that he's doing it up until a movie releases. Will we see Thrawn? If so, how will they justify the time difference, being that Episode VII is set thirty years after Episode VI?
If not Thrawn, is there some other (really good) source material that he might draw from? I'm assuming that (if used) the Solo twins will probably be in their late teens or early twenties.
There's been a giant canon purge. The EU is now "Legacy" non-canonical status. Literally all canon has been removed except for the movies, movie novelizations, and the star wars CG animated tv series. Anything outside of that is no longer considered canon, so there's no longer any pre- or post-movie timeline from before episode I or after episode VI, excepting events referenced by canonical sources. There is no longer any time difference to justify, nor any Thrawn at all. There is no longer the Solo twins.
Abrams and his writers are free to decide what elements to repurpose and reintroduce, entirely. Han and Leia can have kids of pretty much any age the writers want. Luke can have married a person named Mara Jade or not. Thrawn can exist or not. Thrawn can be a Gamorrean if they want. It's all up to them.
This was the absolute best thing they could have ever done and was entirely necessary, because the EU is choked up with crushingly dense and often ridiculous continuity grind, as a whole series of authors ended up filling the main character's lives and the official timeline with a neverending saturation of comic book pulp from across the 80's, 90's, 00's ...
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by advice for robots: Thanks for the rundown on the Rakatan. But if Star Wars is set a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, how are there humans now in the Milky Way?
God formed us from nothing in the image of the humans of that galaxy that we might independently realize a cinematic vision of these tales of old. It is our sum purpose.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wingracer: How much more money can be milked from this franchise?
How long before we get an episode IV reboot?
No reboot ever, but the amount of money that can be milked from this franchise is well more than ten billion dollars. Buying lucasarts for a mere 4 billion was a steal.
No seriously, despite being pure cinematic trash, the prequels earned lucas the GDP of several small countries. Imagine what happens when these movies come out and are not trash. And you can make, like, ten of them. Tv series. Games. Ima-a-a-a-a-gine.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geraine: What happened to Jar Jar after Episode 3? I know he was in the senate, but after the senate was overthrown I have to assume Sidious did something to him?
Senator Binks, still being hailed as an ally and supporter of the Emperor, was sent by Palpatine to an Undisclosed Location, and was replaced by another unwitting Naboo stooge (leia's cousin, no less) until the dissolution of the senate.
Apparently the lil' one man minstrel show was still alive for the liberation of coruscant. Sadly.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by Szymon: How is non vacuum outer space explained? Is there anything in Star Wars about their Universe's laws of physics?
The hard scifi answer could be that there's just sound transmission in vacuum and/or technology that provides sound feedback to pilots.
The soft scifi answer would be something the force because silent space battles is boring.
Either way space is still probably still very vacuumous. Vacuumitudinal. Plo Koon was better than vacuum though so
Would this answer also apply to why there is no time dilation for travel or videoconferencing between solar systems?
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by advice for robots: Thanks for the rundown on the Rakatan. But if Star Wars is set a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, how are there humans now in the Milky Way?
God formed us from nothing in the image of the humans of that galaxy that we might independently realize a cinematic vision of these tales of old. It is our sum purpose.
Just wondering if Star Wars had an explanation for that in its apparently infinite backstory. But God wanting the Star Wars movies to happen works.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sean Monahan: Would this answer also apply to why there is no time dilation for travel or videoconferencing between solar systems?
"Per directive from George Lucas himself, the game’s protagonist would be a bounty hunter—a generic jack-of-all-trades without the Jedi powers that usually took center-stage in Star Wars games. Instead of swinging lightsabers and using the Force, players would manipulate gadgets and capture bounties for cash. Team members were psyched about the new direction for the project, which they called 1313.
But the goal posts kept shifting, ex-team members say. Every so often, Lucas would check in with the team, and as he grew to trust the staff behind 1313, he’d offer up changes, asking them to switch characters and rewrite the story based on what he felt would be more fitting for the game. Ex-LucasArts staff describe Lucas as someone who cared deeply about telling stories, but didn’t know much about the game development process—every Lucas-mandated story change meant shifts in every department: the design, the art, the programming. How could that not be frustrating?345P
“One of the problems of working in a film company—[Lucas] is used to being able to change his mind,” said one source. “He didn’t really have a capacity for understanding how damaging and difficult to deal with these changes were.”
In 2012, just eight weeks before E3, George Lucas dropped a bombshell: instead of starring a generic bounty hunter, 1313 would be helmed by the iconic mercenary Boba Fett.
Some staffers tried to push back—they’d spent over two years working under an entirely different vision—but Lucas and his team of executives wouldn’t reconsider. They wanted a game with Boba in it. On top of that, according to two people familiar with the project, 1313’s developers were prohibited from talking about the new hero. When the devs revealed the game and started taking interviews during E3 2012, they had to pretend that 1313 starred the same generic bounty hunter it had for the past two years."
apparently lucas was as bad for development trajectory and planning in games as he was as bad for authorial and narrative trajectory in movies
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
It gets worse. Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Wait, I can't get twitter. What does it say?!
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:More sad STAR WARS news: Billy Dee Williams twisted his ankle stepping off the bus on his way to his shift at Chipotle.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
*snort*
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:1313...
I'm not interested at all in Boba Fett.
What's wrong with me?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Probably nothing. My interest level in 1313 would have dropped off significantly had it still been in production when I discovered that you play as boba fett.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I think I lost all interest in Boba Fett when Lucas revealed that Baby Fett is a clone of some other bounty hunter who I guess is supposed to be pretty awesome but (a) doesn't actually do much awesome stuff and (b) gets killed off pretty quickly and unceremoniously at the end of the movie.
And then I realized that Boba really is just like Jango—we're supposed to think he's pretty awesome, but what does he actually do that's so awesome? He's got a flamethrower and a jetpack, I guess, but we never see why he's got such a great reputation, and then someone bumps his jetpack and he flies into the sarlacc pit and dies. Apparently the most fearsome bounty hunters in the galaxy are pretty easy to take out.
Putting Jango in the prequels was obviously fan service for all the Fett lovers, but it just serves to highlight what underwhelming characters they both are.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
If one were to just watch the extended universe stuff that's supposed to be paired with the movies, you would note, oddly, that many of the characters who are super awesome in the extended universe are just dumb and stupid in the movies.
Watch Clone Wars and it's like Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi, et. al are walking gods. Watch Attack of the Clones and the jedi are dopes who file into the middle of a gladiatorial pit to be surrounded and picked off helplessly.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Or when they go to arrest the chancellor and two Jedi masters—some of the most Force-adept beings in the galaxy—stand there stupefied while a dark lord of the Sith flies through the air, pauses for, like, a full second, and then casually runs two of them through.
So back to the question of rebooting the originals—you said no. Was that a "no, that would be a terrible idea" or a "no, Lucas wrote some clause into the sale that it would never happen"? Because, given the popularity of reboots right now, I kind of think Disney would be stupid not to do it at some point. And just think—you could write a prequel trilogy that didn't suck.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Yeah. It's just that the movies are so poorly written and the plot is such a cobbled hodgepodge that whether or not Lucas intended it, he wrote the Jedi as blithering idiots. Only Lucas could make lightsabers seem lame and pointless, and by gum, he did it.
The prequels were also supposed to be a character study focused on Anakin, but absolutely awful dialogue just makes him seem like a damn clown.
At least padme was softer than sand huh annie
HOWEVER I have written up an excellent what-could-have-been for how Palpatine's confrontation could have been awesome for the reasons it was lame.
quote:Because, given the popularity of reboots right now, I kind of think Disney would be stupid not to do it at some point. And just think—you could write a prequel trilogy that didn't suck.
Rebooting the original trilogy would be a hideous mistake. Disney would totally be stupid to do it anytime close to now.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: HOWEVER I have written up an excellent what-could-have-been for how Palpatine's confrontation could have been awesome for the reasons it was lame.
I would like to read this.
quote:Rebooting the original trilogy would be a hideous mistake. Disney would totally be stupid to do it anytime close to now.
I agree that doing it anytime soon would be terrible. But wait until several years after the last of the sequels and spinoffs have been made, and I wouldn't be surprised if they start thinking seriously about it.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
So, first, a primer on The Force.
there are a few things you have to understand about the force.
the first is its general overarching definition: the force is a metaphysical element of the universe, observable in a wide variety of mystical forms at various locations, that can be (to some limited extent) harnessed and controlled by individuals with a sensitivity to it. To some very sensitive sapients, this had the effect of providing them enhanced mental and physical capacities, a wide variety of precognition and divination that slowly became ingrained into their means of sensing the world around them, as well as the ability to physically influence their surroundings and the minds of others. force users quickly become superior to non force users and eventually can become unsurpassed healers, sages, tacticians, leaders, and — most notably — combatants.
the second thing to understand about the force is that its most subtle but most important power is that of precognition; a sufficiently talented force user is viewing the future, instinctively, at all times, along a fractal pattern of potential outcomes that they discern on an intuitive level. they essentially have the spidey sense to end all spidey senses (or, and this is the prevailing theory, peter parker was force sensitive) wherein, to the chagrin of those trying to put them in terminal danger, they are always naturally and casually steering their actions around an avoidance of terminal danger. usually they are not conspicuously aware of the fact that they are doing so; they are just habitually avoiding 'bad end' choices they can subtly infer from their capacity to view various possible futures.
this is why it's so. hard. to assassinate a trained force user. you could line up a shot perfectly down an alleyway you pretty much know they're going to go down, and there could be dozens of moments where the force user intuits away from the ambush. a very powerful master could know about it when they wake up in the morning, intuiting the assassination attempt, the person behind it, how to best confront them. move down the ranks, and your average force user might not get an intuition in advance, could even walk down the alleyway into your crosshairs, but will begin to have immediate and obviously alerting precognition about all the immediate futures they have to avoid. They will know they have to dodge ... something, even if they're not sure exactly what...
combat between two force users is something of a fractal game of forcing the other combatant rapidly through a number of do-or-die moments and attempting to overwhelm their ability to respond quickly enough to avoid the bad ends. some combination of combat skill used in up-close-and-personal fighting, mixed with overall talent in the force (and the powers of precognition it provides you,) means that you're playing a game of speed chess between two psychics and hoping to overwhelm your opponent's ability to know where the next fatal blow would have come from, by simply forcing them to have to think too quick and track too many paths into the future, above the limits of their capacity and understanding of the Force.
Unsurprisingly, among force users of generally similar skill especially, combat ends obnoxiously frequently in draws or ambiguous partial-victory outcomes.
third: the force is a giant curse. force sensitivity is perilous to possess. force users basically have to stay on a fairly straight and narrow course of introspection and meditation and self-control, because a force user who engages in otherwise innocuous vices or experience of passions and otherwise normal emotions seems to edge towards blowing out in a very interestingly reliable way and become a complete psychopath. is it because of some way that the force lets you view things? is it that simple deterministic outcomes of self-interest explode fractally and if you start seeing the universe even gradually in terms of self interest it breaks you down into being a wholly amoral, narcissistic asshole? Unknown, but you basically have to be very meditative and altruistic (or something) to avoid this fate. As a result, most force users begin to slide along one side of the continuum between light and dark, and at a certain threshold they've effectively been forced to one result or the other. Shifts can be dramatic and sudden and unpredictable, with people on both sides inherently predisposed and inclined to try to sway people from their opposing side. It's diametric opposition, with so few people not eventually finding a side, or being forced to one.
this has had the result of an almost unending history of war. war between light and dark. constant war. wars across stars. some kind of .. star wars. Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
secondly:
HOW THE PALPATINE FIGHT COULD HAVE BEEN AWESOME IF THE MOVIES HAD BEEN COMPETENTLY DESIGNED OR WRITTEN TO EVEN THE VAGUEST EXTENT
so, we've established that force users, especially those with real training in force arts, are pretty much impossible to gank after a certain point of force competence. They'll always sense when they're about to come under attack, at least. Line up a shot behind them as they're walking to get their force groceries or whatever and they'll immediately get a sour precognition and pull a Zatoichi on you (other prevailing theory: zatoichi was force sensitive ohhh) in the blink of an eye.
Blahblah everything has to turn into a lightsaber fight and lots of jumping around. Always pretty hard to get to the end of a fight. You know how it is. Jedi are just really not ever oneshot, never punked. You don't punk a psychic.
So, if the movies had consciously and conspicuously SHOWN this, perhaps even had some expository moments laying this out for the audience, and had NOT made the jedi seem dumb and useless and moronic, we would have had the established metric of their capacity well before we come to the scene of palpatine's confrontation.
Palpatine would have, prior to this moment, always been depicted as doddering and forgetful and just a warm, kind old man. Perhaps he would fumble with drink cups from time to time, walk with a limp and get winded easily and just look and feel frail (essentially, pulling a Yoda). Just little moments to kind of assert this sense of him as, if corrupt, not powerful. a doddering schemer at worst.
The Jedi march into his office on Coruscant. Do the whole drill. "You are under arrest, Chancellor." concludes Mace Windu.
Palpatine shakes his head, incredulously, almost as if in shock, fumbles a bit more, perhaps even drops his pen (or other prop, whatever). "I .. I ... what is the meaning of this, Master Jedi?" He looks genuinely worried. He stands up from his desk but almost seems to be shrinking into himself from worry and confusion. "Surely you can't think .."
Mace Windu begins to authoritatively provide the justification for his arrest and the charges involved. He doesn't intend to waste too much time with this, but he feels the need to be thorough in such a dramatic political action. The camera angle is entirely on Windu's head, as he dispassionately begins to explain. But he's cut off mid sentence. Simultaneous to the sound of an igniting lightsaber, the camera cuts away to Palpatine having darted forward in an unnatural flash and drives his lightsaber clean through Master Kolar.
Kolar had just only barely even moved. He had reflexively reached for his own saber, but was interrupted and skewered midway through. The lightsaber simply falls out of his hand mid-draw and lands on the floor with a heavy thud.
Kolar's face is shown. He doesn't have an expression of pain, or fear, or even shock. Just ... genuine confusion. He had perceived nothing. He had not even had the slightest prick of precognition. No sense of danger whatsoever. This is a Jedi Master. A man who could stand up to an army with his force powers. A man who can see three attempts on his life before breakfast, and he just got one-shot. He looks up from the hilt of the blade in his gut, in that moment before the life would have drained from him, and locks eyes with Chancellor Palpatine, whose face has transformed from kindly doddering old man to a fierce half-grin half-grimace, a sort of wholly evil and animalistic thing that looks like he's about to break his own teeth from grinning so hard. In the last moment, he sees.
"How .." he starts to say, before the saber is brutally burnt straight out of the side of his chest and through the midriff of Master Tiin, who has been frozen in doubt and confusion as well. Tiin is also a Master. Tiin is frozen with this confusion. He who has seen life through the Force since he could walk, paralyzed momentarily with a lack of understanding over the fact that he saw no future in which Kolar has been slain in front of him. No future in which there was to be a fight today. Both of them come to the realization of what's just transpired .. a true understanding of Palpatine's power, too late.
The idea that Palpatine has such powers of deception, such power to cloud the minds of Jedi, is astounding. He just one-shot them both. Mace and Fisto raise their guard just barely in time, as Palpatine engages in an unearthly acrobatic leap at them, assaulting them without pause, engaging them in a merciless close-quarters blitzkreig. Palpatine actually jumps off the floor and then uses one foot to propel himself savagely off of the still-falling body of Kolar in order to hurl himself at the remaining Jedi.
This is where the movie immediately takes a seriously dark and dramatic turn and never relents.
[ June 14, 2014, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Samprimary ]
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
I liked it except for the parts where he is a ninja.
I don't get why the old frail wise masters all have to be ninjas.
The best fight scene in any of the six movies is when Yoda walks into Palpatine's chamber, and the two fancy red-cloak dudes start to menace him. He just sorta gives them this look, and the slightest gesture, and they're smashed against the wall.
That's how high level Jedi should fight. That's basically how Vader and Palpatine both fight Luke at times, just with much weaker and slower special effects.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I would not have had Yoda be a ninja. I would have actually just deleted the yoda fight scenes from existence.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
I am glad.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Yeah, it would be nice to see someone like Yoda (Mr. "wars not make one great") transcend the need for a lightsaber duel. You only get little hints of that, like when Palpatine attacks him with lightning and he absorbs it and shoots it back. But then it goes right back to ridiculous ninja acrobatics.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
But that begs the question. What *does* somebody like Yoda do against a lightsaber wielding foe who is trying to end him?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
He levitates his own lightsaber to block, then crushes the lightsaber of his opponent.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I guess. So then what does he do against a Sith who isn't using a light saber and doesn't bother with lightning?
Do they argue philosophically?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:So then what does he do against a Sith who isn't using a light saber and doesn't bother with lightning?
What would he need to do? A Jedi uses the Force only for knowledge and defense, never for offense.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I'm not talking about going on the offense. What do our Sith and Jedi opponents do to each other in a battle involving the force if we cut out lightsabers for being tacky, and lightning for being useless?
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I'm not talking about going on the offense. What do our Sith and Jedi opponents do to each other in a battle involving the force if we cut out lightsabers for being tacky, and lightning for being useless?
you mean how would i write it? or how, canonically, would this be handled?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Both?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The Sith would, I'd imagine, try to hurl things at an opponent or crush windpipes.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Yoda would start talking in double negatives and shoot his opponent with a blaster while he was trying to parse it.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
A most delightful thread this has become.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Who said lightning was useless? Maybe it was only useless against Yoda (for the most part) because he was just that good. It seems pretty effective for the most part.
Also, I wonder how much of the philosophy that Yoda espouses in the originals are things that he learned during his exile, because he really doesn't seem to follow his own advice in the prequels.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
What do you think of David Brin's criticism of Yoda?
Posted by millernumber1 (Member # 9894) on :
What is Wedge Antilles's childhood nickname? Who gave it to him? What are his wife, daughters, and nephew's names? Who is his best friend (this one might be a trick question)? Who was his first girlfriend?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Both?
You would have to give specifics of the encounter and why a sith is attacking without either. In general, though, there's a multitude of ways you could handle a conflict between a Master and a Lord of sufficient power* that involves neither lightsaber nor lightning. The most important question is, why is the Sith there? Where are they being received? Does the Sith intend to fight?
In the case of how I'd rewrite the Prequels: Yoda is uninterested in the physical ninja jumpflip saber fighting. We know that by ROTJ, Palpatine is similarly uninterested. Holds the same silent, patient aura of power. But he's not there yet. This is the Clone Wars era, and we want to convey that, even if it's not always necessarily clear or displayed outwardly to the audience, Yoda is the one entity that Palpatine really truly fears. The one person really keeping Palpatine's plan in waiting. Palpatine knows he has to get Yoda out of the way, even if he hasn't quite figured out how yet. If he can just handle a way to keep Yoda out of the picture, if even just for a week, the rest of his plan will fall into place.
*of course, in the prequels, lucas mainly just devolved to them throwing slow moving CGI rocks or pillars at each other, with those rocks or pillars possessing power equivalent to plot requirements
it's so sad oh well
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: Also, I wonder how much of the philosophy that Yoda espouses in the originals are things that he learned during his exile, because he really doesn't seem to follow his own advice in the prequels.
Obi-Wan doesn't even follow his own advice in the prequels that he gave during the prequels. Neither does Yoda. Characters are written flat and inconsistent throughout. Occasionally, Lucas tries to compensate for that with a blatant bout of Tell-Don't-Show, implying character development offscreen. And the movies aren't even consistent with the implied offscreen development.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: What do you think of David Brin's criticism of Yoda?
Brin is a weirdo. There are a trillion legitimate criticisms of the Jedi and the Republic just lying around everywhere that he could have practically just tripped over by accident and yet he comes up with a dumb and mostly invalid set of them instead, that just miss the mark with epic aplomb. Come on. Criticizing the Clone Wars story (and the role of the Jedi and Republic therein) would be like shooting fish in a barrel, and he misses, with extra hubris. He waxes on and on about how Lucas was setting up the Jedi as demigod rulers, despite the fact that a. the Jedi contrast themselves against the Sith by conspicuously refusing to rule and this is so blatantly and obviously set up that I don't know how he missed it, and b. they weren't even demigods in the movies, just a bunch of stuffed-up somewhat impressive wizards with extremely bad tactics who die by the truckload to general-issue droids, and get had so hard and so obviously that they jump around fighting wars for the person who planned the wars specifically to kill them all and aggregate command of the entire republic into his hands.
No seriously there were a score of reasons why his article was really dumb. I could go on for hours. He seems to be confused about who actually blew up Alderaan, too. Or what Yoda was actually saying re: how things work for force sensitives. If you are going to criticize something that's really easy to criticize don't get it wrong you doofus.
He needs to sit his ass down, watch the Plinkett reviews of the prequels so he can get a clue about where to actually start with criticism of Star Wars' mythos, then play KOTOR 2 to figure out that this criticism already exists and it is an important part of the past of the Jedi, then say a dozen hail maries to beseech forgiveness and then get the hell out of my confessional.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I started reading Brin's Salon article and gave up after the first bullet list of complaints, most of which don't bear any resemblance to the movies. Then I tried reading a post on his blog but couldn't get past the fact that he signs his posts "By David Brin, Ph.D."
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by millernumber1: What is Wedge Antilles's childhood nickname? Who gave it to him? What are his wife, daughters, and nephew's names? Who is his best friend (this one might be a trick question)? Who was his first girlfriend?
ughhhhhhhhhh
- veggies - Mirax Terrik Horn did - Iella, Syal and Myri, Jagged Fel - Tycho Celchu - Mala Tinero
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: I started reading Brin's Salon article and gave up after the first bullet list of complaints, most of which don't bear any resemblance to the movies. Then I tried reading a post on his blog but couldn't get past the fact that he signs his posts "By David Brin, Ph.D."
People who sign their own posts are unironically the worst (i suppose i can give hobbes a pass)
even worse are people who sign their posts with their forum account's signature THEN ALSO sign each individual post at the end.
By Sam Primary, Ph.D.
________________________________________ By Sam Primary, Ph. D. Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
If this forum had a like button I would have totally clicked it
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by Herblay: Why midichlorians?
Because Lucas had become a dumb hacky writer and threw the midichlorians in as a easy-mode, crutchy way to exposit Anakin's significant inborn power/potential as a number on a device that Qui Gon could explain to a child (the audience is also the child). Whoa! Anakin has more of the midiwhatsits. Over nine thousand midiwhatsits! That's a lot of midiwhatsits. The boy is special. Did you catch that, audience? Pandering!
It was, in his fashion, something which significantly undermined greater mythos and metaphysics for the star wars universe just to punt his way through a plot point about Anakin.
Since I know for a fact that midichlorians will be consequently handwaved away forever now because they were so bad and created a ton of plot holes, the new explanation is that Qui-Gon was becoming a bit of a weird old man and had started to fall in with some unorthodox fringe beliefs, like your crazy Scientology-dabbling uncle and his various emails to you about the dangers of fluoride and health benefits of omega tryptophans or eating placentas or whatever.
So he got really invested in this alt-bio Midichlorian Hypothesis and was totally sold on it and was talking it up excitedly to Anakin but most everyone else was either rolling their eyes at ol' quigon or just humoring the dude. Meanwhile, back at the jedi temple yoda was like 'quigon, talk about this midichlorian shite we must' and qui-gon was all like 'look, it's really true. I loaned you a copy of Jedinetics, right? Chapter four detailes how an orgone meter can reveal subtle pulses of quantum emotional power that' and yoda was all like 'up shall the hell be shut' and it just goes on from there.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
dude it is like awesomely ironic and contextual that your registration date is "A Long Time Ago"
was it also in a galaxy far far away hmmmmmmm?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: By Sam Primary, Ph.D.
________________________________________ By Sam Primary, Ph. D.
The Ph.D. makes your argument like ten times more persuasive!
Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
Well Samprimary you are the authority on Star Wars ..... Posted by millernumber1 (Member # 9894) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by millernumber1: What is Wedge Antilles's childhood nickname? Who gave it to him? What are his wife, daughters, and nephew's names? Who is his best friend (this one might be a trick question)? Who was his first girlfriend?
ughhhhhhhhhh
- veggies - Mirax Terrik Horn did - Iella, Syal and Myri, Jagged Fel - Tycho Celchu - Mala Tinero
Not sure why the ughhhhhhhhh, but you have quite impressed me. Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
wedge antilles is a perfect example of the complete and total inbred continuity porn that the Extended Universe drowned itself in.
Antilles was an even vaguely noteworthy presence in the movies, which GUARANTEED that like any other even-remote-split-second-character-presence in the movies, no matter how otherwise non-noteworthy, they would be written into a skillion books and comics and be central to a million billion pulp adventures forever always.
It's been a guaranteed constant of the EU.
The droid that Luke initially purchased from the Jawas that then subsequently bust a motivater, leading Luke to then take R2-D2 instead? He was on screen for a few seconds! SO now compliments of the EU, he is Skippy, the Force Sensitive Droid, who has his own adventure because Boba Fett bumped into him while he was serving drinks at Jabba's palace, but he saved the drink with the force and realized he could be the first droid Jedi! And he force persuaded the gammorean guards to let him go, and he got captured by Jawas, then saw that Luke had the force, got selected by Luke, but then saw through the force that if Luke didn't take R2, the Rebellion would fail and Leia would die, so he committed droid suicide after force persuading Luke to take R2, and none were the wiser as to how this droid had actually just saved the rebellion with the force i am not making any of this up.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
quote:Originally posted by millernumber1:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by millernumber1: What is Wedge Antilles's childhood nickname? Who gave it to him? What are his wife, daughters, and nephew's names? Who is his best friend (this one might be a trick question)? Who was his first girlfriend?
ughhhhhhhhhh
- veggies - Mirax Terrik Horn did - Iella, Syal and Myri, Jagged Fel - Tycho Celchu - Mala Tinero
Not sure why the ughhhhhhhhh, but you have quite impressed me.
I had to search, and I was rediculously surprised to find that this is real and not just made up.
By the gods. The expanded universe DID get ridiculously pedantic, didn't it.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Rank the following, in their primes, in relative force power:
Luke Skywalker Anakin Skywalker Yoda Emperor Palpatine Count Dooku Darth Maul Darth Revan Exar Kun Darth Malak Darth Malgus Mace Windu Obi-Wan Kenobi Mara Jade Jacen Solo Jaina Solo Bastilla Shan Satele Shan
Also feel free to add notable others not included, and any explanations or justifications.
Bonus: Which would you pick as your entry in a 1v1 lightsaber tournament?
I'm sure this is a cliche question in Star Wars fandom, but I've never bothered to seek out and read any debates on the subject, so I only have my own impressions to go on currently.
[ June 18, 2014, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by manji (Member # 11600) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: Luke Skywalker Anakin Skywalker Yoda Emperor Palpatine Count Dooku Darth Maul Darth Revan Exar Kun Darth Malak Darth Malgus Mace Windu Obi-Wan Kenobi Mara Jade Jacen Solo Jaden Solo Bastilla Shan Satele Shan
Also feel free to add notable others not included, and any explanations or justifications.
Nomi Sunrider Ulic Qel-Droma Vodo-Siosk Baas
I mean, if you're going to put Exar Kun up there.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
To be fair, Skippy was intended to be a ridiculous joke. Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I mean, if you're going to put Exar Kun up there.
Yeah I put the ones that came to mind from my experiences with the EU, which is mostly the KOTOR games and a handful of the novels. Exar Kun is mentioned a few times in the games I've played. But as I have no idea who those people you listed are, I don't really have a huge interest in knowing how powerful they are .
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
Where's Jedi Prince Ken? Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier:
quote:I mean, if you're going to put Exar Kun up there.
Yeah I put the ones that came to mind from my experiences with the EU, which is mostly the KOTOR games and a handful of the novels. Exar Kun is mentioned a few times in the games I've played. But as I have no idea who those people you listed are, I don't really have a huge interest in knowing how powerful they are .
They're from some comics that were supposed to take place thousands of years before ANH, and were in my Guide To Characters from the 90s.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
Jaden Solo? You mean Jaina?
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Yes, sorry. Fixed.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Ok, I have a question...
Why do the bad guys always demand (or accept for that matter) the surrender of the good guys the second they have the advantage instead of just leaving them smoking corpses (otherwise known as Bond villain syndrome).
If storm trooper armor can't stop a blaster bolt or even chipped flint spears wielded by angry teddy bears, why bother wearing it at all?
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Also...why did blowing up the death star win the battle for the rebels when there was still a fleet of star destroyers orbiting Endor?
And when Whatto told Qyi Gon he wouldn't take republic credits why didn't he walk ten steps to the next guy and use his Jedi mind trick for a simple currency exchange, then walk ten steps back to the flying Jew pig/elephant and buy the part?
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Also if there are only ever two Sith why would the Emperor and Vader try and recruit Luke?
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Also KOTOR crawling with Sith...only two my foot!
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: To be fair, Skippy was intended to be a ridiculous joke.
Sure, so was Elan Sleazebaggano, before he paired up with Kid Boba Fett yes this also actually happened
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: ...then walk ten steps back to the flying Jew pig/elephant and buy the part?
Um, dude? That was horrifically racist.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: ...then walk ten steps back to the flying Jew pig/elephant and buy the part?
Um, dude? That was horrifically racist.
Nah, it was both funny and accurate to the tone of the scene.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Because the guy shakes them down he's Jewish?
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Because the guy shakes them down he's Jewish?
You disagree that Episode 1 is chock full of racist caricatures? You didn't watch the Trade Federation guys and wonder if they delivered in under 30 minutes?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Look at Watto in the second movie, with his beard and little black hat.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
in addidion to a hook-nosed flying elephant blimp thing with a yiddish/italian accent, the actors voicing Neimoidians were asked by Lucas to imitate Thai people, Jar-Jar was still seriously a freaking minstrel show, etc
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
basically for fun just replace jar-jar's "meesa" with "massa" and just watch how comically quickly it gets uncomfortable and you go 'hey wait a minute'
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
There's a difference between discussing possible racist overtones and disseminating them.
You're arguing after the fact that there was overt racism, and that anyone reading your comment should have been aware with it. But it reads MUCH more like you're perpetuating the racism.
You feel like George Lucas made a bad call, but you're the one running with the ball. :/
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: basically for fun just replace jar-jar's "meesa" with "massa" and just watch how comically quickly it gets uncomfortable and you go 'hey wait a minute'
Your definition of fun is different from mine.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: ...then walk ten steps back to the flying Jew pig/elephant and buy the part?
Um, dude? That was horrifically racist.
...of Lucas to make those horrible, one dimensional, racial stereotype characters.
I'm just acknowledging the flying elephant in the room.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Herblay: But it reads MUCH more like you're perpetuating the racism.
- person a, intentionally or innocently (doesn't matter) puts a bunch of insensitive racial stereotypes in a movie - person b openly observes the presence of the portrayals in the movie - ??? - person b was the real racist all along
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
An otherwise incomplete list hitting on that general RANK UR POWAR LEVEL thing and also including the all important literary and decree fudge
RANK S - RIDICULOUS 6. Luke Skywalker 7. Vitate (non-clone Palpatine is about here) 8. The Exile 9. Revan 10. Kreia 11. Marka Ragnos/Naga Sadow
RANK A - EXTREMELY POWERFUL 12. Zanna 13. Bane 14. Freedon Nadd 15. Nomi Sunrider 16. Starkiller (defective clone) 17. Anakin Skywalker (as Vader) 18. Yoda 19. Exar Kun (as Force entity)
RANK B - VERY POWERFUL
20. Krayt (resurrected) 21. Mace Windu 22. Malgus 23. Jaina Solo 24. Satele Shan 25. Obi-Wan 26. Jacen Solo 27. Bastilla Shan 28. Malak 29. Mara Jade
RANK C - THOSE IN THE LIST WHO ARE MERELY POWERFUL
30. Dooku 31. Maul
quote:Bonus: Which would you pick as your entry in a 1v1 lightsaber tournament?
If we're talking a full-on no holds barred force fight that happens to involve lightsabers, Palpatine's clone. If we're just talking a battle of force use through lightsaber combat exclusively, Luke Skywalker. If we're talking just lightsaber combat, Mace Windu.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Ok, I have a question...
Why do the bad guys always demand (or accept for that matter) the surrender of the good guys the second they have the advantage instead of just leaving them smoking corpses (otherwise known as Bond villain syndrome).
They don't. Plenty of Sith and other rat bastards the galaxy across quite clearly aren't in prisoner-taking mode (and when they are, they're arrogantly seeking new fodder for the dark side).
Jedi Civil War / Galactic Cold War sith were generally as murderhouse as you got.
quote:If storm trooper armor can't stop a blaster bolt or even chipped flint spears wielded by angry teddy bears, why bother wearing it at all?
Its portrayal in the movies aside, the Stormtrooper armor was extremely useful, even if in its general screen time it was a murderhouse for on-screen stormtroopers. It was also very resilient, even if it probably wasn't going to do so well against direct powered heavy blaster hits.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
Where's Jedi Prince Ken?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Also...why did blowing up the death star win the battle for the rebels when there was still a fleet of star destroyers orbiting Endor?
And when Whatto told Qyi Gon he wouldn't take republic credits why didn't he walk ten steps to the next guy and use his Jedi mind trick for a simple currency exchange, then walk ten steps back to the flying Jew pig/elephant and buy the part?
The Imperial fleet orbiting Endor took heavy losses, including the Executor (this was a second incredibly important loss beyond the second Death Star) and was forced to retreat. Or, perhaps they weren't forced to, but Palpatine, Vader, the Grand Admiral, several important admirals, and the ranking Moffs had all just been killed. There was a massive power vacuum (and apparently the loss of Battle Meditation because the EU likes to cram that into EVERY battle of any import), so, they panicked. The Emperor was very totalitarian so it was a huge head-of-the-snake thing that gravely impacted the Empire.
The Empire's military might was huge, still. But this was a fracturing moment that brought about the downfall of the Empire.
Also: The Watto exchange with Qui-Gon literally just makes utterly no sense and is amazingly dumb. You cannot make sense of it. No amount of nerd retcon can make it make decent sense. It's just totally 100% bad writing, no matter how much of it you blame on "the force musta guided him there"
[ June 19, 2014, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Samprimary ]
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Also if there are only ever two Sith why would the Emperor and Vader try and recruit Luke?
Some time before the Prequel movies, some sith noticed a real problem with the Sith ideology where you have the whole master/apprentice thing where you prove you are worthy of master by killing your master.
the problem was a master would have several apprentices and there would be multiple masters with apprentices and often apprentices would gang up on masters to murder them and acquire leadership but often start killing each other in infighting, and at the end you would have less capable masters and knowledge of sith mastery would have incurred a net loss.
they decided on a Rule of Two, to say that there was only ever one master and one apprentice at any given time, to ensure that the Sith would grow with knowledge of the force rather than cannibalizing themselves as much as they were.
Hooray!
So they did that. Except when they didn't, because Sith are self-absorbed schemers and constantly broke the rule of two ANYWAY.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by theamazeeaz: Where's Jedi Prince Ken?
cleaning my bathroom.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I like how most of your answers are basically "because Lucas is stupid" and not annoying technobabble frosted over with fan boy enthusiasm.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
i know enough about how awful lucas was as a storyteller, writer, and director to know that people who are worrying about the new star wars movies are wasting their time with the worry.
honestly, what have we got to lose at this point? there is no way the new movies will not be an improvement. You have nowhere to go but up from the prequels.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
Where does Asajj Ventress rank?
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
they're not wasting their time with their worry at all
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by Herblay: But it reads MUCH more like you're perpetuating the racism.
- person a, intentionally or innocently (doesn't matter) puts a bunch of insensitive racial stereotypes in a movie - person b openly observes the presence of the portrayals in the movie - ??? - person b was the real racist all along
He'd already referred to Watto by name. Then he said:
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: ...why didn't he walk ten steps to the next guy and use his Jedi mind trick for a simple currency exchange, then walk ten steps back to the flying Jew pig/elephant and buy the part?
- If a movie calls someone an epithet, such as the n-word, is it okay to call their character that in an out-of-context conversation? - If you interpret that a character is a stereotype, is it okay to just refer to them as such without preamble?
He applied a few epithets to the character and included the word "Jew". There was no discussion about stereotypes. It was completely without preamble and out of context to any discussions of characterization. It came off as if it was Stone Wolf's opinion of the character.
If you want to discuss stereotypes in science fiction, you could just as easily apply them to any world. Star Trek, maybe? Are the Ferengi Jewish because they value a free market system? Or would it be RACIST OF ME to make the implication that their culture is Jewish?
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
Or what about Klingons? They highly value honor and have a short temper. If out of the blue I refer to Worf as a "grater faced Mexican pig creature", am I just implying that Gene Roddenberry is a racist?
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
Is Spock a bat-eared Greek?
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Are you using the term "epitaph" as:
1. A term used to characterize a person or thing 2. A term used as a descriptive substitute for the name or title of a person.
Or...
3. An abusive or contemptuous word or phrase
Because the first two are undeniable...but if you mean the third than are very mistaken as to my intent.
I feel very comfortable in my characterization of Lucas' intent. I myself a Russian Jew, on my mother's side, so a Jew by Jewish standards. Not that would give me a pass had I said anything truly racist.
I was not summing up my opinion of Whatto, but Lucas' clear and definite "vision".
Had Klingons been an obvious and painful caricature of a real culture (as the trade federation, Jar Jar and Whatto are) I would call Roddenberry out just like I am calling Lucas out.
I am serious having trouble with your opinion that the characterization of Whatto as innocent and equally as racist as "calling Vulcans space Greeks".
Come on now.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I myself a Russian Jew, on my mother's side, so a Jew by Jewish standards.
Completely off topic...
Did you grow up practicing? I'm curious, because I've never seen you mention being Jewish before. Which is more or less like me - I'm a German/Russian Jew (from my mother), but since I grew up Christian (though we did eat kosher), I never really talk about it. Like, I don't think I've mentioned it very often here, if ever.
Some Jews I meet, even if they had no involvement with the faith or culture growing up, talk about it frequently. Like, some of them will mention it within the first few minutes of meeting me. Others are like me and don't really mention it until they're asked, which isn't often if you don't have the "look." (i.e, I'm tall and blonde, which ironically makes some people make Nazi jokes about me...)
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
My paternal grandfather tried distancing himself from his Jewish heritage so hard he changed his last name...after my mother and uncle were adults and he & my grandmother had already divorced.
So my mother's maiden name, my uncle's last name and my grandmother's last name she kept are all Grafston (already Americanized from Grafstien by my grandfather before he met my grandmother)...and my grandfather's was Grafton.
So my mother/uncle were raised nonreligious...but in an internal family culture that remained largely Jewish.
My Russian Jewish mother married my Swedish/Scottish father and raised me Christian (she called herself a completed Jew).
I always knew I was "Jewish"...not sure why exactly. I rarely mention it as I am not a believer in organised religion, nor have I ever been a part of a real Jewish community.
To this day, my tiny little 5'1", 120 lbs mother will go ballistic and need to be held back from physically assaulting people who use "Jew" as a verb for negotiating a lower price.
She almost hit Gary Busey for smoking a cigar indoors in CA and being a real dick about it.
Posted by Mr. Y (Member # 11590) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: basically for fun just replace jar-jar's "meesa" with "massa" and just watch how comically quickly it gets uncomfortable and you go 'hey wait a minute'
I think you are reaching for stuff to quibble about here. Jar Jar uses "meesa" in stead of "me" or "I". To my recollection it is not used to mean "mister" or "master".
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
It's a good thing your mother doesn't read your posts!
I think the point is basically this: - There is a meme that claims certain characters in the prequel films are racist charicatures. - If people are familiar with the meme, your comment could be considered a dig at Lucas. - If people are not familiar with the meme, the simplest assumption is that you are making a racist comment.
I think that the only criticism was that you could have stated your point more clearly without implying prejudice on your part. And that a bit of clarification might be required.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I don't quibble about that specifically. it's just an ironic coincidence given the other complaints about jar jar binks
Posted by millernumber1 (Member # 9894) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: wedge antilles is a perfect example of the complete and total inbred continuity porn that the Extended Universe drowned itself in.
Antilles was an even vaguely noteworthy presence in the movies, which GUARANTEED that like any other even-remote-split-second-character-presence in the movies, no matter how otherwise non-noteworthy, they would be written into a skillion books and comics and be central to a million billion pulp adventures forever always.
It's been a guaranteed constant of the EU.
The droid that Luke initially purchased from the Jawas that then subsequently bust a motivater, leading Luke to then take R2-D2 instead? He was on screen for a few seconds! SO now compliments of the EU, he is Skippy, the Force Sensitive Droid, who has his own adventure because Boba Fett bumped into him while he was serving drinks at Jabba's palace, but he saved the drink with the force and realized he could be the first droid Jedi! And he force persuaded the gammorean guards to let him go, and he got captured by Jawas, then saw that Luke had the force, got selected by Luke, but then saw through the force that if Luke didn't take R2, the Rebellion would fail and Leia would die, so he committed droid suicide after force persuading Luke to take R2, and none were the wiser as to how this droid had actually just saved the rebellion with the force i am not making any of this up.
I would agree that the stretching of epic backstories for minor characters can get annoying (see also: IG-88's final fate...or was it one of his final fates, since he's a droid, and can apparently get multiple bodies or something) - but I think that even though in concept the Antilles problem is bothersome, the actual execution of most of his stories where he is the hero is significantly superior - mostly because it stands alone, despite being continuity-spinoff at its worst.
Of course, if you aren't a fan of pulp military scifi action stories, then it definitely is a problem. I am, so I still love those stories. (Except for the one about his first girlfriend. That one is the worst.)
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Clear communication is always a worthy goal, however I disagree utterly with your point. And so does my mom.
Since we are handing out unsolicited advice: perhaps you could benefit from not speaking for or about the mothers of those whom you have just met.
That aside, I barely had the internet in '99 when Epo Uno graced the big screen. If memes were around then I didn't know about them. I'm not basing my opinion on an internet meme, nor do I feel that it requires any extra knowledge beyond watching Whatto to conclude how ridiculously obvious and blatant the stereotyping and shjt ass writing are.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: basically for fun just replace jar-jar's "meesa" with "massa" and just watch how comically quickly it gets uncomfortable and you go 'hey wait a minute'
I think the worst part is actually when Qui-Gon says, "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." As if he can't possibly be a fully sentient being because he doesn't speak standard English (or Basic or whatever you call it in the Star Wars world). Seriously, this is a huge element of racism against black people in the US.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
To this day, my tiny little 5'1", 120 lbs mother will go ballistic and need to be held back from physically assaulting people who use "Jew" as a verb for negotiating a lower price.
.......
Since we are handing out unsolicited advice: perhaps you could benefit from not speaking for or about the mothers of those whom you have just met.
Two points: - You're the one who referred to your mother's reactions to comments akin to yours. - We've never met.
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
I'm not basing my opinion on an internet meme, nor do I feel that it requires any extra knowledge beyond watching Whatto to conclude how ridiculously obvious and blatant the stereotyping and shjt ass writing are.
I didn't say internet meme. I said meme. Different definitions. A meme is any piece of information shared by a group.
So ... if you come to an independent conclusion, you feel that you can reference it with slurs and people should just understand what you mean? So, if I refer to Ferengi from Star Trek as money-grubbing Jews ... it's not my racism, merely whomever created the characters?
Following that logic, I could certainly generalize about YOUR character. Though I would certainly attribute all of the fault to you and your writing. I guess you and George have something in common, huh?
[ June 20, 2014, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Herblay ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:So, if I refer to Ferengi from Star Trek as money-grubbing Jews ... it's not my racism, merely whomever created the characters?
I don't think that being able to recognize when a character is based on an existing stereotype means that you're actually stereotyping the group in question. To suggest otherwise is to say that anyone who is offended by a robot character who comes into a film with a backwards baseball cap and a gold tooth, calls everyone "ho's" and "niggas," and threatens to pop a cap in someone while holding his gun sideways must secretly think very little of black people.
That you can recognize when a portrayal is prejudiced does not mean that you yourself share that prejudice.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
Looper’s Rian Johnson to Write and Direct Star Wars: Episode VIII and IX
If you say "those Ferengi are money grubbing Jews" yes I would consider that a racist comment. If you said "those Ferengi are being portrayed as stereotypical money grubbing Jews" I would consider that a comment on the possibility of the show's creator as being racist.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Herblay...you are quickly losing credibality with me. I've been posting here (under thus and my previous account) on and off for nearly two decades, so when I say we just met it should be entirely, completely, blatantly obvious what I mean.
So...either you don't get what I'm saying or you are picking nits to a silly degree. Either way it is not a ringing endorsement.
As to my mom...see above point.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:So, if I refer to Ferengi from Star Trek as money-grubbing Jews ... it's not my racism, merely whomever created the characters?
If someone says something, even sardonically, that points out the bizarre racist caricature of a character in a movie or tv series, expressing it isn't actually in any automatic or categorical sense the dark secret underbelly of the observer's racism brah. The End.
And yes, the Ferengi got fairly close to the wire on jewey presentation in TNG, but fortunately DS9 managed to expand on the Ferengi well enough to bust that comparison in twain.
aaaaaaanyway this is getting too pedantic even for a thread about minute star wars lore points. Let's just sum it up: The prequel trilogy came front-loaded with dumb racially stereotyped characters. If Watto, Jar-Jar, the Neimodians, Shu Mai, etc, were not all part of the same trilogy you could assume that it was perhaps accidental that there were some accidentally obtuse portrayals, that it was just frankly a bizarre visual oddity that by Attack of the Clones Watto was wearing sporting a funny little hat and beard. After the fifth weirdly racist portrayal though, it's not worth assuming it was coincidence.
Especially when we know things like this: Silas Carson, the actor who portrayed Nute Gunray, was directly asked to imitate Thai speech when looping the dialogue for the movie. The Neimoidian very-a spreshul spreech was no accident. We don't have to go far to find Lucas' other lazy racism.
And it doesn't matter too much because the movies were big giant steaming turds anyway so it's not like the racism issue is a blemish on an otherwise intriguing addition to the franchise.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: [QUOTE]
aaaaaaanyway this is getting too pedantic even for a thread about minute star wars lore points.
Sam, when you made this thread, this is exactly where you wanted it to go and its fairly obvious. I'm just saying.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:And it doesn't matter too much because the movies were big giant steaming turds anyway so it's not like the racism issue is a blemish on an otherwise intriguing addition to the franchise.
I just want hold hands with this sentence on the beach during sunset.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: [QUOTE]
aaaaaaanyway this is getting too pedantic even for a thread about minute star wars lore points.
Sam, when you made this thread, this is exactly where you wanted it to go and its fairly obvious. I'm just saying.
totally busted, I couldn't wait for the thread to be about stone wolf's secret star wars racism, totally got me there, totally
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Really really put me in a bad mood. The sabre is terrible, not only the crossguards, but also light effects. Terrible "force awakens" animation. Overall terrible. I'm so scared.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Just fyi the sabre's effects are intentionally rough and jagged. Like its not very well tuned and focused and the power is amped to compensate.
It's basically this guy's adolescent special-snowflake-Sith sword
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: There's probably a simple answer for this, but why is there a black man in a Stormtrooper uniform?
Aren't they all supposed to be clones of Jengo Fett?
No. The clones had an accelerated aging rate. After the conclusion of the clone wars and the end of the Jedi and the Republic, the remaining Kaminoan clones began to age out of service, as well as becoming increasingly unreliable after the biochips in them were used to trigger Order 66 — while they performed as 'programmed,' this disturbed them greatly on a psychological level and they began to wash out of service even before they were phased out due to physical infirmity. That plus a little bit of convenient problems on Kamino ensured that the stormtrooper corps would first become a lot of clones not based on Jango, and then eventually was mostly just recruits.
By the time of A New Hope, most stormtroopers were just regular enlists and possibly all of the Fett clones were dead or retired.
And now that it's 30 years in the future, probably none or virtually none of the troopers are clones.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Cross post from the trailer thread:
The sort of photorealistic effect is jarring. I kind of like it, but it's weird for a Star Wars film.
Not a fan of the claymore lightsaber.
Like the stormtroopers.
Missed the Lucasfilm badge at the top. I really hope the opening 20th Century fanfare still have the Lucasfilm flash across it, because to me, that's 90% of what gets me excited at the very start of a Star Wars film. Seeing Bad Robot flash across the screen will just remind me it's made by the guy who ruined Star Trek.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Kurtzman and Orci have been left behind on Star Trek, so if Star Wars isn't fixed, it won't be for the reasons that Star Trek was ruined.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: There's probably a simple answer for this, but why is there a black man in a Stormtrooper uniform?
Aren't they all supposed to be clones of Jengo Fett?
No. The clones had an accelerated aging rate. After the conclusion (...)
I think it's not the case. The actor (John Boyega) looks like he has a bigger part in the movie. My guess is he is just disguising as an imperial soldier.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Kurtzman and Orci have been left behind on Star Trek, so if Star Wars isn't fixed, it won't be for the reasons that Star Trek was ruined.
I'm thankful for that much.
I'm fairly confident he'll make a decent Star Wars movie. He already proved he can when he made those two "Star Trek" films, which were basically Star Wars movies anyway.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Szymon: I think it's not the case. The actor (John Boyega) looks like he has a bigger part in the movie. My guess is he is just disguising as an imperial soldier.
Boyega is a main character in the movie. And quite assuredly by the time of A New Hope most stormtroopers aren't clones. And this is many decades afterwards.
Posted by JanitorBlade (Member # 12343) on :
This begs the question, why *aren't* all storm troopers clones?
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
The Kaminoans engaged in a bit of ultimately ineffectual rebellion, the program experienced problems related to the fallout of that, it became rapidly too expensive to justify its continued existence, and alternative cloning programs from the Arkanians failed to pan out. So, over time, the Stormtroopers just became good old fashioned trained recruits.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Star wars episode 7: the special George Lucas edition
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
thought about posting that video in the other thread. decided not to because its not really funny
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Thank you for sharing that, valued community member
Posted by JanitorBlade (Member # 12343) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: thought about posting that video in the other thread. decided not to because its not really funny
Disagree!
It was pretty much a perfect execution.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Yeah, this sort of joke is worn out to me, and I was never that fond of it in the first place. Part of me honestly even kind of feels sorry for Lucas. Its not that funny!
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I would like to have seen the Death Star explode in that one. I think that's not too much to ask.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: Yeah, this sort of joke is worn out to me, and I was never that fond of it in the first place. Part of me honestly even kind of feels sorry for Lucas. Its not that funny!
The man sold his studio for $4 Billion in cash and stock on the back of 20 years of cynical, soulless profiteering on a beloved brand, that he somehow still managed not to ruin completely. Feel sorry for him if you want.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: There's probably a simple answer for this, but why is there a black man in a Stormtrooper uniform?
Aren't they all supposed to be clones of Jengo Fett?
No. The clones had an accelerated aging rate. After the conclusion of the clone wars and the end of the Jedi and the Republic, the remaining Kaminoan clones began to age out of service, as well as becoming increasingly unreliable after the biochips in them were used to trigger Order 66 — while they performed as 'programmed,' this disturbed them greatly on a psychological level and they began to wash out of service even before they were phased out due to physical infirmity. That plus a little bit of convenient problems on Kamino ensured that the stormtrooper corps would first become a lot of clones not based on Jango, and then eventually was mostly just recruits.
By the time of A New Hope, most stormtroopers were just regular enlists and possibly all of the Fett clones were dead or retired.
And now that it's 30 years in the future, probably none or virtually none of the troopers are clones.
It's not like anyone stunned a stormtrooper and stole his armor.
Oh, wait...I think two white guys did it once.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Stormtrooper armor has been stolen on many multiple occasions. As had trooper armor, clone armor, and Jedi armor.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Did the clones have one head General the way Grievous was for the Droids? Were all the Jedis considered Generals?
How is there a command structure within the clones if they're all essentially the same person? How do choose who is an officer over who? Is it based on age? Do officers go through a different training program than common foot soldiers?
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: Yeah, this sort of joke is worn out to me, and I was never that fond of it in the first place. Part of me honestly even kind of feels sorry for Lucas. Its not that funny!
The man sold his studio for $4 Billion in cash and stock on the back of 20 years of cynical, soulless profiteering on a beloved brand, that he somehow still managed not to ruin completely. Feel sorry for him if you want.
I don't know. The fact that the internet still has a hard on for him is awkward to me.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: Did the clones have one head General the way Grievous was for the Droids? Were all the Jedis considered Generals?
How is there a command structure within the clones if they're all essentially the same person? How do choose who is an officer over who? Is it based on age? Do officers go through a different training program than common foot soldiers?
They're essentially the same person in the same way that identical twins are essentially the same person. Genetically identical. And though they all had a very regimented upbringing, I imagine there were enough differences in environment for differences between them to develop.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: Did the clones have one head General the way Grievous was for the Droids? Were all the Jedis considered Generals?
How is there a command structure within the clones if they're all essentially the same person? How do choose who is an officer over who? Is it based on age? Do officers go through a different training program than common foot soldiers?
The clone army was subservient to the Jedi and the Supreme Chancellor. Only certain Jedi held the ranks of General and High General.
The command structure for the clones is a byproduct of alternate templates and genetically variant results among the clone population. A natural variation of aptitude (and unnatural variant-based variation) existed among the clones and aptitude testing could root out the subset of the clone stock that was most suited to leadership roles. Most placement was based off of intended templates, though.
Some clones washed out due to physical infirmity or other disqualifying handicap. They were put in roles like janitorial duties, or just 'disappeared.'
Any clones slated for and approved for leadership roles were put in training programs specific to that.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
When Obi-Wan found out about the clone army's existence, and he concluded that the Jedi that allegedly requested its creation died before that could've happened, what was the Jedis' theory on how the army came to be? Or were they just glad it was there and didn't want to question for whom or why it was created?
What would the Republic have done if they didn't conveniently stumble across this clone army right before the droids attacked?
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
I had assumed that the convenient discovery of the droid army was all part of the Emperor's plans.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
And now Orci has been booted from Trek III as well. Good riddance.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
No kidding. I wasn't even considering seeing the movie before.
Now I'm at least thinking about it.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Haha, really? That could be good. By booted, do you mean he isn't directing? There's no way he was removed from the project entirely. I doubt his tendrils will retract from his writing and production roles so the movie will still probably suck, but now at least it won't for sure absolutely suck.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: When Obi-Wan found out about the clone army's existence, and he concluded that the Jedi that allegedly requested its creation died before that could've happened, what was the Jedis' theory on how the army came to be? Or were they just glad it was there and didn't want to question for whom or why it was created?
What would the Republic have done if they didn't conveniently stumble across this clone army right before the droids attacked?
Before I get to answering the insipid canon extrapolations behind this and the whole sifo-diyas crap, you just hit upon one of the most 'huh, what?' weirdo oddities of the entire lucas-led primary canon, behind midichlorians and the podrace bet by qui-gon jinn. it makes as little sense as it does because it is a story that literally changed as lucas went on.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
According to the article I read, his script was rejected and so has been removed as writer and director. He is still listed as a producer but that doesn't mean he will actually have anything more to do with the film. They are searching for a new director and script. I'll try to find a link.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: it makes as little sense as it does because it is a story that literally changed as lucas went on.
Can you elaborate on that? Do you know what other iterations of the story were like?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Sifo-Dyas was originally "Sido-Dyas" - get it? Get it?? GET IT??? SidoDyas ... Sidious
Yes, sifo dyas was originally sido-dyas, a paper thin "nilbog" level clue that it was Darth Sidious who commissioned the clone army.
In much later drafts, the name was changed in favor of a typo in the earlier drafts, and the connection to sidious was dropped. Sifo became a human Jedi who had secretly commissioned the creation of the army. Then later some more gobbledygook was hashed out to keep this a plot of the emperor after all, so now sifo was tricked! By impenetrable machinations! Of a level slightly less interesting than ep 1s trade disputes. And then his blood was used to make general grievous!
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: And then his blood was used to make general grievous!
wait what
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
so after SidiOuys had to be rewritten to be an actual person after Lucas kind of crudely ditched the idea that Sidious secretly commissioned the clone army, then this new jedi named sifo dyas had his story rewritten again to make sure that the clone army's existence was still ultimately the sinister machination of the sith, even if it was a jedi who commissioned the clone army's creation, an Epic Story was written about how sifo dyas was compelled to do so by palpatine's at-the-time master, then killed by former friend dooku, then dooku erased all info about the cloning planet from the jedi archives, which somehow caused pretty much everyone but a four armed diner hambeast to forget the whole damn planet existed or whatever even though it was specifically only purged from the jedi's archives, not any other archives on the planet (right?) (or something?) whatever it was sufficient to make the planet disappear shut up.
dooku kept sifo-dyas'ses body in cryo storage. then when <INSERT GENERAL GRIEVOUS'S CONVOLUTED BACKSTORY> he recovered sifo-dyas's blood from the frozen body and injected it into Grievous in order to sustain him and prepare him for transformation into a cyborg with many robotic limbs. infused with jedi-blood, grievous became blah blah blah lightsaber lawnmower emphysema fight man
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
For someone that knows everything about Star Wars you don't seem to like Star Wars
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I heard once that no one hates Star Wars quite like Star Wars fans.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
It's the ultimate in nerd self-loathing.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
Well if you don't like star wars there is always this:
I don't know about you but that looks pretty freaking amazing. It will probably suck but man it looks cool.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
that movie looks wonderful
hey wingracer, ever see the movie Doomsday? it has a little bit of Mad Max in it
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
I have not but I will check it out sometime soon.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: For someone that knows everything about Star Wars you don't seem to like Star Wars
Star wars is a body of work with dizzying pinnacles and absolutely incomparably iconic legacy, including a number of very worthwhile games, books, or even comics. It's pretty awesome! But it is a long-running franchise with some dark years we only recently seem to have been leaving. If you ask me questions pertaining to the series' usually bad and extensively bloated and fanwanky Extended Universe, or questions pertaining to the three terrible prequel movies, made during a period of time in which Lucas had isolated himself from challenges or controls against what would turn out to be significant shortcomings in writing and direction capacity, I will probably be making fun of those bad parts, because they are bad. And I doubt anyone disagrees with me!
These dark periods have all but completely become irrelevant this year! George Lucas sold the franchise to Disney, who will pair its creative potential up with not terrible directors, and Lucas will never direct or control the release of another movie again. Additionally, the Extended Universe has, with very few exceptions, been completely purged from the official canon, allowing the series to start over fresh without being saddled down by inbred, adolescent, stifling continuity porn.
So I don't care too much about them anymore! I like Star Wars as a franchise overall, and see nothing but upward potential after its sale away from Lucas opened up new opportunities for a series rebirth. But I'm not the one asking the questions; I'm taking all questions asked! If most of those questions pertain to the EU or the prequel trilogy, you'll probably continue to see me making light of poor writing or continuity, or things otherwise too ridiculous even for a series birthed of a space opera filmed in the 1970's.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
But without the EU and the prequels, isn't all that's left the original trilogy? I thought that most of your answers were coming from your knowledge of the EU. Where else could you get all of this info that wasn't included in the original trilogy?
Edit: it could be I'm not understanding what falls under EU. I thought it was anything that wasn't one of the 6 movies or Clone Wars, i.e. novels, comics, etc.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I wondered the same thing. How many of these answers are coming from the now-irrelevant Expanded Universe?
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: Yeah, this sort of joke is worn out to me, and I was never that fond of it in the first place. Part of me honestly even kind of feels sorry for Lucas. Its not that funny!
The man sold his studio for $4 Billion in cash and stock on the back of 20 years of cynical, soulless profiteering on a beloved brand, that he somehow still managed not to ruin completely. Feel sorry for him if you want.
Sure, two decades of crap are squarely on his shoulders, but not the money, he gave that away to charity. And what softens my heart is that he -did- hand off the mantle, because I never expected him to do so. I was waiting for him to die and for it to be too late for any of the original actors to participate due to extreme age/death. So I mean, sure, Lucas screwed the pooch a whole lot, but he also did us a few solids too.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: But without the EU and the prequels, isn't all that's left the original trilogy? I thought that most of your answers were coming from your knowledge of the EU. Where else could you get all of this info that wasn't included in the original trilogy?
Edit: it could be I'm not understanding what falls under EU. I thought it was anything that wasn't one of the 6 movies or Clone Wars, i.e. novels, comics, etc.
Not all of the EU is bad. Plenty of it I can refer to without any scorn or disapproval because it's actually a-ok, as far as science fantasy goes. Some of it is actually straight up good. A good chunk of it will be satisfactorily non-contradictory to the new canon (as a specific example: Old Republic era canon will probably mostly survive, by the grace of Bioware).
If it's EU I dislike, I will bring it up for the purpose of mocking it. If it's EU I like, I will establish it as fact.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
happy holidays everyone
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I thought that link was going to be this.
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
I can't even sit through the holiday special, no idea how you could handle being forced to be a part of it.
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
QUESTION.: What is the worst part of the star wars Extended Universe that is not the guy with the lightsaber suit.
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
The Sun Crusher was a nearly indestructible craft that was no larger than a starfighter, but was capable of unleashing destruction on a magnitude that dwarfed even the Death Star's capabilities. Unlike the Death Star, which destroyed individual planets, the Sun Crusher could destroy an entire star system by causing its target star to turn into a supernova. The key to its near invincibility was layered Quantum-crystalline armor, a material so strong that it could perfectly repel even turbolaser shots. Han Solo once was able to ram the Sun Crusher straight through the bridge of the Imperial-class Star Destroyer Hydra without taking any damage, and during the skirmish in the Maw, it even survived a glancing blow from the Death Star Prototype's Superlaser, which likely would have destroyed any other ship it touched. The Sun Crusher took some engine damage from the blast, as this was its only weakness, but was able to continue to fight. The Sun Crusher was also equipped with a hyperdrive and was designed to slip unnoticed into a system, fire its weaponry, and then escape before its presence was detected.
Posted by David Manning (Member # 2076) on :
Interesting. By changing one letter you get the answer to the question: "What is the worst part of the Star Trek universe?"
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
Wesley owns bones, don't be hating, and needs to come back for the captain worf series as worfs scarred psycho security officer , played by a chain smoking wil wheaton.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Parkour: I can't even sit through the holiday special, no idea how you could handle being forced to be a part of it.
I assume paychecks were involved?
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Parkour: trick question it is this
The Sun Crusher was a nearly indestructible craft that was no larger than a starfighter, but was capable of unleashing destruction on a magnitude that dwarfed even the Death Star's capabilities. Unlike the Death Star, which destroyed individual planets, the Sun Crusher could destroy an entire star system by causing its target star to turn into a supernova. The key to its near invincibility was layered Quantum-crystalline armor, a material so strong that it could perfectly repel even turbolaser shots. Han Solo once was able to ram the Sun Crusher straight through the bridge of the Imperial-class Star Destroyer Hydra without taking any damage, and during the skirmish in the Maw, it even survived a glancing blow from the Death Star Prototype's Superlaser, which likely would have destroyed any other ship it touched. The Sun Crusher took some engine damage from the blast, as this was its only weakness, but was able to continue to fight. The Sun Crusher was also equipped with a hyperdrive and was designed to slip unnoticed into a system, fire its weaponry, and then escape before its presence was detected.
What about The Crystal Star*? Or Jedi Prince Ken?
*I was 10 when I read the Crystal Star. I loved it.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Ugh, The Crystal Star. I read it as a teenager and absolutely hated it, and I even liked the Jedi Academy books.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
OMG you guys! Carrie Fisher lost a bunch of weight and looks loke the crypt keeper!
Also Mark Hammil is rocking a Dumbledore.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
I believe weight loss was one of the reasons she did coke, especially for ROTJ.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by theamazeeaz:
quote:Originally posted by Parkour: I can't even sit through the holiday special, no idea how you could handle being forced to be a part of it.
I assume paychecks were involved?
Mainly just half the cast doing lines of coke with Carrie daily
She says she was so blasted she barely remembers her days on set. No jokes.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Officially the absolute worst part of the EU once we account for the meta-engagement of the works as, in, and on society, is the Wookiepedia article and attached page edit commentary for "Breast"
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
What the. Why does that even exist? Is it safe to assume that it was put together by horny teenage nerds who have never seen real breasts?
Posted by Faithe Bloxam (Member # 13245) on :
Since my 7 years old son is into Star Wars now he wants to know how old exactly is Yoda? I say 300 hundred years old or older, am I right?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yoda was just under 900 years old when he died, based on his dialogue in RotJ and statements in the Clone Wars cartoon.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
Did anyone here used to play the Star Wars CCG?
I miss it very much and due to the lack of meatspace places to play, I found this: http://www.holotable.com/. I'll be futzing around with it in the near future.
Of course, it's been over a decade, so I've been catching up on goings on here: http://www.starwarsccg.org/. Seems that there have been a bunch.
Posted by 1664 (Member # 13248) on :
What do you think was the actual cause of death for Padme
Posted by 1664 (Member # 13248) on :
What do you think was the actual cause of death for Padme
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Padme died due to a failure to find a good app for culture-filled people.
Also Yoda lived to 900 years pretty much on the dot.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Originally posted by 1664: What do you think was the actual cause of death for Padme
She died of...gasp!....bad writing.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faithe Bloxam: Ok this is a new question from my son, what kind of creature is Jarjar? Sorry if this was asked before
Minstrel.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Were there any legitimate reasons the separatists wanted to secede from the Republic? Other then Sidious' behind the scenes string-pulling, how did it all get started?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
It was all essentially orchestrated by Palpatine and Sidious. The appeal that they orchestrated this around was the frustration of a number of very organized large scale business interests that wanted to escape the taxation, bureaucracy, and trade and labor regulations of the Republic. It is much easier to make tons of money when oversight preventing things like wage slavery or outright slavery (and safety and environmental regulations) are not present. That and the Republic had been seen to have a massively boated and inefficient bureaucracy that was stifling trade. In typical fashion that was all presumed to be intentional puppetmastering from Palpatine, because it's a convenient excuse for everything.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Have their been any Jedi/Sith who duel wield a saber & a blaster?
I kno from the Target toy aisle that there is a Jedi who has a combo version from the SW Rebles cartoon.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Are we answering Star Wars questions omitting the now defunct Extended Universe now?
Certainly narrows the source material. If you're talking EU, I'd say Jaina Solo, possibly Corran Horn at times, and a couple others count as saber/blaster wielding Jedi. But other than the dude from Star Wars Rebels, we've never seen anyone in the movies or shows.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Seems like best way to do it
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Why aren't the new Star Wars movies any fun any more? The first three, IV-VI, were great. The second three, I-III, were tolerable. The most recent ones are just "Eh." Not even worth buying the DVDs. I find myself not caring about any of the characters in the latest ones. Even when Han Solo was killed by his son, it had no impact. He was no longer a sympathetic character. IMO.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I thought the most recent one was better than all but one of the prequels. But it suffered from everything that ALL J.J. Abrams movies suffer from: unnecessary "mysteries," weird plot holes, poor resolution of B plots, and too much telling without showing. It was, I think, well-directed but poorly written.
Posted by Heisenberg (Member # 13004) on :
It was basically a remake of A New Hope, with Han Solo as Obi-Wan and Rey as Leia, Han, and Luke.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I can barely watch the prequils w/o fast forwarding thru the "dialog".
At least I enjoyed Force Awakens...course I've only seen it once.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I thought the most recent one was better than all but one of the prequels. But it suffered from everything that ALL J.J. Abrams movies suffer from: unnecessary "mysteries," weird plot holes, poor resolution of B plots, and too much telling without showing. It was, I think, well-directed but poorly written.
Which prequel? Because if its Revenge of the Sith, that one feels like it could have been a videogame movie. It's actually my lease favorite of the three.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Have their been any Jedi/Sith who duel wield a saber & a blaster?
Kyle Katarn, Jaden in JA, Revan (pseudo-canonically), Luke Skywalker, Kanan in Rebels, Quinlan Vos, arguably Etain Tur-Muken.
Currently the only post-legacy-canon depiction of an individual doing blaster and blade atm (as far as I know) is Kanan.
Additionally, Ezra has a lightsaber which is also a stun blaster, in and of itself, though that doesn't count as dual wielding so much as using a hybrid weapon.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'd have to rewatch Force Awakens, I can't remember what all my specific complaints about it were. But I think it boiled down to the fact that it didn't generate any of its own energy. The only reason the movie means anything to anyone is because of the reflected glory of the movies that came before it. Han dying, the reunions, etc, none of it was earned, just borrowed. And it was all kind of cheap.
It was a fun movie, just incredibly lazy and poorly executed.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
I guess I am the odd one out. I loved The Force Awakens. Admittedly, I had very very low expectations, and seeing it completely blind was fantastic. It's the first Star Wars I have ever seen without knowing what the plot was ahead of time. It still holds up on the second and third viewing, like the OT does, but it is an entirely different film if you don't know what happens next.
I get why they redid Episode IV. In a way I like VII better, because the characters are a little rounder, except maybe Poe. It passes the Blechdel test. It is a fine line to walk-- Star Wars benefits from not expanding the universe, or thinking too hard about the plot. But people want more, so they stretch and flesh out things so they make no sense.
And the beached spaceships were stunning.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
My opinion is the same as theamazeeaz. I loved it, but my expectations going in were cautious. I can understand the mirroring of IV, in an attempt to win back everyone who was lost by the prequel trilogy.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Force Awakens was -fun-, which the prequels weren't.
I didn't feel as if they were borrowing glory, more like, the new generation who have lived in the shadows of the glorious past. As if a new tale was being told in an old, familiar setting.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
BTW...thanks for answering my question to Lyr & Samp
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Force Awakens was -fun-, which the prequels weren't.
I didn't feel as if they were borrowing glory, more like, the new generation who have lived in the shadows of the glorious past. As if a new tale was being told in an old, familiar setting.
I might have been okay with that...if the bulk of the plot wasn't heavily based upon the old tale. But it wasn't. The movie doesn't work without Han, and its emotional resonance is almost entirely borrowed from Han and the old crew.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
That's going to be a major problem with VIII and IX, I don't disagree there. Han provides a lot of comic relief and is the heart of of a lot of the movie. Episode IV isn't really even very good until Han shows up.
Despite what Heisenberg says, Finn does play a lot of Han's part when he was alone with Rey, (the "can you unfix it?" line comes to mind). If they can capture that, they'll be good.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyr: I might have been okay with that...if the bulk of the plot wasn't heavily based upon the old tale. But it wasn't. The movie doesn't work without Han, and its emotional resonance is almost entirely borrowed from Han and the old crew.
I strongly disagree...Rey and Fin are the heart of the movie to me.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
As the final arbiter of all things Star Wars, let me lay it out straight for all of you with your 'opinions'
Episode seven is worse than any of the original series, which never stopped doing new things and created all of the original, immortal iconographic essence of what Star Wars is. You do not build on that unless you are really working to be a new part of the series, as opposed to a bizarrely imitory pseudo-homage that needlessly and awkwardly straightjackets itself into contrivances used to mimic the structure of ANH. Nothing about the Death Star 3 was something that could not have been done much better, and nothing about how the weapon was used (and what this did to set us up to the final part of the movie) was well written. Aside from some goofy ewok foibles in ROTJ, the original trilogy carried forth just fine as a product of its era. You can't contrast the original trilogy as a crucible of iconic creation against a derivative follow-up that suffers because it tiptoes too close to the essence of the original.
Episode seven is better than any of the prequels, because it was certainly competently crafted together, mostly well-paced, and had vastly superior dialogue and cinematography. It's not like this is a high bar to clear (the only lines people generally remember from the prequels are remembered because they were unintentionally hilarious, and Lucas' blocking and camera angles were grindingly amateurish and endlessly repeated) but it is overwhelmingly true regardless. There's little way to compare seven against any of the prequels, because any of the prequel movies can only really be positively referenced in terms of whatever little points or scenes somehow broke away from the drudgery and shoddiness of the whole. You don't have that with seven. 'An overall good product with mostly good scenes, just with some really questionable decisions mixed in' is better than 'an overall set of bad decisions with some stuff mixed in that was okay I guess.' Episode seven also had real characters that we got to show being built up and established for us. The prequels did not.
Episode seven is okay for what it was, but the keepers of the franchise will never be able to get away with being as derivative as they were in the opening act. We have established the characters. It is time to move on. If they don't, they'll undo the potential and real recovery of the franchise in progress, and settle into tentpole complacency that results in the side stories being better by far than the centerpiece offerings, simply because they dare to be different.
If you disagree you are wrong. Be sure to let me know what you think in the comments below and remember to hit the subscribe button. Hey if you liked this post be sure to catch my series on audible dot com, which brought you this quality post and many like it. Audible dot com, check them out for their free thirty day subscription. Alright hatrack queros, see you next time.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Spam
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: As the final arbiter of all things Star Wars, let me lay it out straight for all of you with your 'opinions'
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