Last season starts in about two months. A year's wait but I'm betting it'll be worth it. This thread can be for speculation and such.
So Hank knows. I really hope that the show continues directly after the last scene, because I want to see his reaction when he walks out of the bathroom and sees Walt.
I can just imagine Hank yelling out in rage, standing up and rushing out of the bathroom to beat Walt to death and promptly tripping over the pants he forgot to pull up in his anger. Not really, but it would be hilarious.
Gilligan has said that they didn't have a concrete explanation for the flashforward that opened season 5 when they wrote it, and if necessary they'd ditch it and handwave it somehow.
I'm going to assume for now that that is still going to happen. The question is why. I think it comes down to three possibilities :
A) Jessie is already terrified of Walt. In the extra scene added into the Season 5 DVD release, Saul told him how Walt had the nine men murdered, and all but told Jessie flat out that Walter killed Mike. He gets pushed over the edge somehow into testifying against Walt, and Walt needs to go on the run.
B) Hank knows. There is a confrontation between Walt and Hank. Hank is killed, and Walt goes on the run.
C) Hank's death isn't known at first, or it isn't known that Walt did it. Skyler figures out it was Walt, though. That, or something else pushes her into deciding she is going to turn Walt in. Walt kills her, and goes on the run.
I think the story ends with Walt either dead or in prison. More likely dead. Despite that, the entire country finds out about the chemistry teacher who became the meth king of the southwest. (And the Czech Republic!) It's a big news story, and everyone's talking about it. In a way, Walt gets to win even if he dies, because everyone finally knows who he is. Everyone realizes what he is capable of and what he can do.
[ August 22, 2013, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: Heisenberg ]
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
Fun fact time!
Did you know that Bryan Cranston once voiced a power ranger bad guy? The blue ranger was also named after him.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
Huh. I'm getting a memory like an old person, I remember the nerdy blue ranger being named Billy.
Yeah, I'm always shocked at how much different stuff Cranston has been in. Turn's out being a great actor doesn't stop him from also being a great character actor.
I wonder if he'll turn out like Gandolfini, though, and just be known as Walter White to the vast majority of the population. There's always Hal, I suppose.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
"Everyone realizes what he is capable of and what he can do."
I think you must be right. I can imagine the look on WW's face when they show this moment of satisfaction.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
Probably be the first time we see Heisenberg smile.
Ya'll think the cancer will come back? I kind of doubt it, myself. The cancer served it's purpose in pushing him over the edge already. The story is now and has been for a long time about how Walt is doing this because he wants to do it, not because of the cancer.
The end of the story is here, and there are far more interesting human-human conflicts to be had then spending time on WW's cancer coming back.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Yeah, the story is not about his cancer.
My attempt to plot out the remainder of the series:
I think we'll have a couple of episodes where Hank is gathering proof and having a hard time figuring out whether he's going to do anything with it, and then one or two where Walt goes on the defensive and ends up coming up with some clever way to kill Hank.
Once Hank is dead Skyler will have a really good idea why, and will be desperate to get the family into some kind of plea arrangement and witness protection, but Walt will in some way hold a child or her sister hostage.
Jesse will become aware of these events and make some attempt to get close to Walt again with the intent of killing him, but something will go wrong and Walt's hostage will die instead. Jesse will then go to the DEA and turn himself in so he can take Walt down another way.
Walt will try to get his cash and go on the run, but will fail to get the money when the police are closing in.
We will get a glimpse of Walter's attempts to break back into the trade (small time, just to get back on his feet) once he's in an area where nobody knows him and he has no one afraid of him or loyal to him.
Once he gets a bit of money, he'll come back to ABQ with the intent of killing all those who betrayed him.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think it's interesting that everyone thinks that Walt kills Hank.
Frankly, I think it would be incredibly satisfying if Hank killed Walt.
And it's my guess that Hank won't die. The actor who plays Hank asked very, very seriously to be killed off in the front 8. Gilligan denied his request saying he was crucial to the back 8. Why keep him around for a couple episodes just to kill him anyway? I mean maybe, for pacing, but with that request in hand, I think Gilligan would have accelerated the plot and killed him earlier.
But no, I think Hank survives and either kills Walt or puts him away. Gilligan has said the ending is bittersweet, and at this point, I think the most bittersweet thing that could happen would be Walt dying to protect either Jesse or Hank. Walt is beyond redemption now, but he could go out to protect his friends and family and that would be very satisfying.
There's also the question of whether or not Walt is really out like he said. Is he out? Is the money enough? Did he get out too late?
I think if Walt cracks, he won't be able to kill Hank. Hank saved his life at least once, and Walt used Hank as a foil to take care of one of his problems that nearly killed Hank and then ruined his life for half a year. He's shown a sentimental streak with it comes to Jesse and family. Hank is family.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
You know what I love about BB now? The fact that it doesn't have a tradition, lengthy opening.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
I don't know. If Hank confronts Walt with everything he's managed to figure out (the drug dealing, the murders, the lies to the family) and really digs into his ego, insulting him and questioning his manhood, I can see Walt snapping momentarily and killing Hank. Walt long ago lost the mental constraints society puts on you against murder;just losing his temper could be enough.
After all, that's basically why Mike died. He pissed Walt off.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Mike didn't die because he made Walt *angry*. He died because he insulted Walt's pride, which is his biggest trigger.
But I'm not sure Hank would do that. The thing is, Hank won't confront Walt until he has all his evidence lined up. And he'll confide in Gomez, but he won't tell anyone else because it's a strike against HIS pride. Walt will only kill Hank if he thinks the secret dies with him, otherwise, why kill a family member?
At the end of the day, Walt resented Mike. Mike ALWAYS belittled him, always talked down to him, never believed in him, and by the end, Walt felt like he was carrying Mike and that Mike's rules and restrictions were unnecessary. Hank has a lot of that baggage and doesn't even know about it, which makes it much more likely that Hank snaps and kills Walt than vice versa. Plus, Hank isn't stupid enough to tip his hand.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I've been making this prediction since Season 4: the series will end when Jesse kills Walt after Walt kills Hank and Skyler.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
I think any hesitation on Hank's part in moving against Walt is that for now the only hard evidence he possesses is a book with Gale's initials in it.
There's also the fact that Hank is going to look like an accomplice. Every big bust or success of his came about with Walt either being heavily involved or the person to kill the drug dealer. His rehab was paid for with drug money. Hank is honorable, though, so I doubt that we will see more then momentary hesitation over this.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
You may have a point, though. Hank has been shown to have a violent temper. If he'd smash Jessie's face in over a phone call...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I've been making this prediction since Season 4: the series will end when Jesse kills Walt after Walt kills Hank and Skyler.
Gilligan has said the end will be 'satisfying in a way' and "bittersweet."
Nothing about that ending qualifies either of those descriptions.
That would be an extremely, extremely tragic ending.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
My vote goes for Walt ending up in prison with his story all over the news, giving him the fame he so badly craves. I don't know how that ties into the flashforward scene, but I don't know if I believe Gilligan when he says he doesn't have a concrete plan for it or is planning on waving it off.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
He's also said that viewed from a certain angle, the ending can be seen as Walt winning in some way.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Walt wants to sing his accomplishments SO bad, wants to brag. I'm not sure how it's all going to end but I'm sure that there will be a moment when Hank lets Walt know he knows and Walt will transform into Hiesenburg before our eyes. Maybe smile and lean back and look at Hank with twinkling eyes and whisper "Prove it."
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Walt wants to sing his accomplishments SO bad, wants to brag. I'm not sure how it's all going to end but I'm sure that there will be a moment when Hank lets Walt know he knows and Walt will transform into Hiesenburg before our eyes. Maybe smile and lean back and look at Hank with twinkling eyes and whisper "Prove it."
Um, that would be silly. He has a ton of proof. None of it ever made sense before because no matter how much the proof pointed to Walt, he couldn't bring himself to believe it was his brother-in-law. But when the veils fall and Walt is front and center, all that evidence he had before slots neatly into place.
As for the "Walt winning" thing, Gilligan has also said that Walt will be exploring his identity without the blinders of the last few seasons. Most of the "winning" guesses I see are pretty straight forward based on what we've seen in the past few seasons. Maybe a new victory is based different criteria as he has an epiphany in this last run of episodes.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
Does he have enough proof to actually charge Walt, though? The missing lab equipment from his school is circumstancial, and the book isn't much better at all.
I expect a scene similar to when Skyler and Walt had their last big blow up. Hank tries to convince WW to turn himself in, and then moves on to saying how he'll take Walt down. Walt shoots each idea down, (you can't prove anything, you'll go down as an accomplice) and generally goes into full on "I'm smarter then you and am always two steps ahead" Heisenberg mode. And really, he does have his bases pretty well covered on this. The only risk is someone talking.
Unlike Skyler, this just pisses Hank off more, and the main conflict of the first part of the season is set up - Hank v Walt.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I think Walt has to die. If Gilligan has given hints that it will be bittersweet and sort of like Walter winning, then what happens is he dies in some way that helps protect his family.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Obama: Does he have enough proof to actually charge Walt, though? The missing lab equipment from his school is circumstancial, and the book isn't much better at all.
I expect a scene similar to when Skyler and Walt had their last big blow up. Hank tries to convince WW to turn himself in, and then moves on to saying how he'll take Walt down. Walt shoots each idea down, (you can't prove anything, you'll go down as an accomplice) and generally goes into full on "I'm smarter then you and am always two steps ahead" Heisenberg mode. And really, he does have his bases pretty well covered on this. The only risk is someone talking.
Unlike Skyler, this just pisses Hank off more, and the main conflict of the first part of the season is set up - Hank v Walt.
He has incredibly strong circumstantial evidence, enough to open up a wider investigation which would include doing away with their whole "we got all this money from gambling winnings" BS. Hank will discover that Walt has never set foot inside any Casinos within a thousand mile radius, and if he supposedly won THAT much money, you better believe there would be a record. Then he'll start interrogating the car wash financials, and it wouldn't take more than a few weeks of watching the car wash to realize it doesn't do nearly as much business as Skyler says it does. He might even be able to find DMV records from the various fancy cars Walt bought and subsequently returned.
Most of Walt's coverups depend on the fact that no one is already looking for him. He eliminated evidence that would allow someone to name him. But once named, he's in pretty serious trouble.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
Saul knew a manager at the casino who filled out the appropriate loss forms to give to the government. Walt is covered on the money angle.
He could stake out the car wash, yeah, but he wouldn't get an okay from his bosses for it. He has less on Walt then he ever did on Fring, and they shut him down on that until Walt blew Fring up. And Skyler has said that the car wash makes enough legit money for them to get by. If Walt gets so much as a whiff of trouble, he can stop laundering the money and just let it sit in the storage locker.
Hank is a good detective though, and more then stubborn enough to keep on trying to uncover convictable evidence, with official backing or without. Part of why I think there's a decent chance Hank gets murdered.
Little ricin in the Schraderbrau, perhaps?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
If we've learned anything, it's that Hank doesn't need an okay from his bosses before he chases something down. And if he tells Gomie before he does it, which I think he would, or possibly warns his wife, then killing him solves nothing.
Now that Hank knows, he'll be on it. And I think he will keep it quiet while he gathers evidence. Walt thinks all the bridges are burned, and there's nothing left to hide because he's closed everything down, except perhaps Matt Damon Jr., I can't remember what happened to him. He's the only real loose end.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I think that is the point of the season. Walt V Hank, Hank scrambling to gather evidence, while Walt tries to thwart him. Maybe Hank flying unlicensed because it looks like he is an accomplice since Hank also has a lot of pride and wouldn't be willing to turn over the investigation to someone else (and there is NO WAY the DEA would let him do the investigation of his own brother in law who all but was a collaborator through his own gullibility.
As for the M60. Walt doesn't really need a good reason to get overwhelming firepower, all he needs is to feel threatened.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
He feels really subdued in that flash forward though. It was also his birthday. He's making that breakfast drawing. He's alone. He gives the waitress a huge tip. His hair is back. He feels like Walter White--not Heisenberg. He has a fake ID. It's all very curious.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
It doesn't have to be his birthday. She checks to see if it is by looking at his fake ID, after all.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
In fact, one could look at his actions in that scene as him trying to draw attention.
Hi, it's my birthday, see it says so on my ID right next to my completely real name and birthdate. Look at me acting weird and making numbers out of my bacon. Just in case that's not enough to remember me by, here's a hundred dollar tip.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Good point.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Obama: In fact, one could look at his actions in that scene as him trying to draw attention.
Hi, it's my birthday, see it says so on my ID right next to my completely real name and birthdate. Look at me acting weird and making numbers out of my bacon. Just in case that's not enough to remember me by, here's a hundred dollar tip.
Perhaps, but to what end?
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Because he wants someone to curiously follow him so they see his bigass M60?
[ June 24, 2013, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: umberhulk ]
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
If Walt is on the run, he probably looks a lot different then he did when he left. (Hair, beard, different glasses.)
Now he's back, and he's bought a really big and impractical gun to do something. Maybe, even if he's on the run because the Man wants a piece of Walter White, he doesn't want whatever is about to go down as being connected to him, for reasons unknown. So he makes sure this stranger sees him in a cafe and remembers him. The cops find her and get a fake name (and probably birthday) for the man whose description matches the perp's.
My favorite theory I've read on the gun is that Jessie's robot suggestion back in the first or second season will come to fruition. Mad Scientist Walt will attach the machine gun to a moving platform and use it as an armed drone.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
At the end of the day we're all going to find out that he's just buying himself a really cool birthday present.
Posted by Sa'eed (Member # 12368) on :
Whatever happens will be unpredictable and satisfying.
Think about how comprised Hank would be professionally if it becomes public that his brother in law (who visited him quite a few times at the DEA headquarters) is Heisenberg. Hank is a likeable and good person, and it just wrenches your heart knowing how betrayed he's going to feel by a family member whom he really cared about.
At the same time I dread Walter getting found out because of his son's love and admiration for him. I came to care about the people around Walt too much to want to see him get caught.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
I tell you what makes me satisfied about Breaking Bad. My wife just bought me the DVD set for the whole series thus far. Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
Very nice. The inside and making of segments are put on youtube every week, but they're usually pretty cool and insightful and it'd be nice to have them at hand.
Other then that, I have netflix for my BB needs.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
quote:except perhaps Matt Damon Jr., I can't remember what happened to him. He's the only real loose end. [/QB]
I had to think about who you meant, then I laughed out loud. Really.
That kid has a mobbed up family; they're the ones who did all the prison hits. I doubt Walt would mess with him, at least not without serious cause.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Here you go guys.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
That's cool, Umberhulk, thanks. I've placed my bets.
First reviews for the season premiere are popping up. Here's one of them, although if you want to be completely unspoiled I'd recommend you avoid it. It's nothing major, though. Brief overview of the first two scenes, with no details, is all.
Twelve more days. I'm psyched.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
Is there a way to watch this live, or at least within a couple days afterward, if you don't have cable? Such as buying episodes on iTunes or Amazon, or through streaming? I won't be happy if I have to wait a while to watch the end of the season just because I can't have cable right now.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
P.S. - I had a dream a week ago or so where Hank gets killed off in the opening episode of this season. Walt killed him. I was really ticked off when it happened, then I was glad when I woke up and realized it was a dream.
Or maybe I have premonitions.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
The ending rescued that from being a lame episode.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Glad to see they started off with a bang.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
When that garage door closed, I thought I was going to have a heart attack. Red Wedding levels of intensity.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
My best friend thought for sure that Hank was day dreaming.
But I think I this means Hank isn't really going to be that vital going forward. Too much too fast.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
So many ways Walt could end up heavily armed, grungy, and on the run. If from the law I think he would've been caught, so that makes me think it's someone on the other side hunting.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: My best friend thought for sure that Hank was day dreaming.
But I think I this means Hank isn't really going to be that vital going forward. Too much too fast.
That was a great episode. They are going in a different direction than I thought. I like it. However, I wouldn't count Hank out yet.
Hank is kind of penned in, yes. He could easily get himself frozen out of the case, maybe suspended or even fired, if his boss becomes aware he's obsessing and inserting himself into this case again. He's been ordered to leave it alone, and they are going to think he's crazy.
The alternative to pursuing this on his own, looking crazy, and risking his job, is to blow it wide open, and give everyone at the DEA the whole theory. But that means they will know that Hank accepted drug money for his treatment, and he'll still lose his career either for suspected corruption OR for being too stupid to see what was happening under his nose. They will need a fall guy if the truth comes out, and Hank is the only candidate.
Plus he's legitimately afraid of Walt, now. Heisenberg successfully killed all of Fring's men. And the family is at risk.
But that doesn't mean he won't need to win this, somehow. When things broke bad for Walt, he did things that he wouldn't previously have considered. Now things are really, really bad for Hank. He has been beaten again and again by Heisenberg, and now he's desperate. He doesn't have much time before he might be dead. He's angry. He will hold Walt responsible for his injuries, for his professional embarrassment, for making him such a fool.
We might see them going to war in a quiet way, trying to outsmart each other, but each on their own, trying to kill the other but preserve something of their lives.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Lots of people have suggested that Hank will leave anyway to pursue some of his other interests, like logging and minerals.
I think Hank will work with Gomie to get the DEA on Walt's trail. He'd rather bust Walt and lose his job than keep his job and let Walt get away with it.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
Holy CRAP! Did anyone else freak out when Hank left Walt's house and he started having a panic/heart attack?! I thought he might actually die, and then he'd die knowing the secret. I guess he can still die and not have the chance to tell anyone, but I think the fact that Walt's neighbor knew about his crimes (I'm assuming, anyway), we can probably assume that Hank somehow gets the word out (or someone does, anyway).
I also think something is going to happen to Jessie. He's either going to die or end up broke and happy to be free of it (I would prefer this). Not Walt, though. Walt is pretty much doomed.
I can't believe this show is almost over. I'm loving the final episodes, but I am so sad. There's just nothing else on TV that can match it (with the exception of Game of Thrones, I suppose). Here's hoping AMC can get some new shows in to replace it, but I suspect nothing is going to compare.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
I think that Walt will use the ricin in one last attack, and in a tragic twist it will be consumed by someone he loves...like his son.
I predict a Shakespearean epic level of tragedy.
[ August 13, 2013, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: lem ]
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I was just rewatching that scene and I just noticed that Hank spits when he says "I don't give a shit about family"
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Lots of people were saying that the authorities won't be after Walt, it'll be someone related to Lydia.
But I think the neighbor's reaction says it all. He's well-known by everyone now, which mean the media and the police know who he is.
I think we're all pulling for Jesse because he seems like the last character truly deserving of peace (who has actually done something wrong). I think people are treating Jesse like a wounded, whimpering puppy, and that's getting in the way of remembering that he too has done a lot of terrible stuff.
I think that says a lot about us as viewers. Actually I think reactions to both Walt and Jesse says a lot about us as humans. A lot of people STILL want Walt to win, when he's clearly a terrible, catastrophic human being who has caused unbelievable suffering. Whatever sympathy I had for him is long, long since gone. I'm a little...maybe not surprised, but curious, at people who still root for him to win.
But in Jesse's case it's different. He killed a man in cold blood, a relatively innocent, nice guy (who was also doing bad stuff, but it's not like Gale was an awful person). He directly contributed to Jane's death by getting her back into drugs after she had stayed sober for awhile. That's to say nothing of being instrumental in getting Walt's meth empire started to begin with. Normally when we read those stats we say, send him to jail forever. Or worse. But instead a few months of emotional turmoil and a need for penance seems to satisfy just about every viewer's need for restitution. But looking at the facts on paper, can feeling really, really bad about doing awful things really make up for the awful things? After less than a year?
I wonder how much of that is just being confronted with someone's humanity means we bend the rules. And how much of it really is just plain bizarre.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
People have been rooting for shitty characters since the 30s. They don't necessarily do it because they think they're good people. I was rooting for Gus during his arc against the cartel.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
That said, I'm beginning to wonder if Walt ever really was the protagonist in Breaking Bad, or if it was always a story told from a villain's perspective. And if Hank was always the anti-hero.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Interesting post, Lyrhawn.
Here's how I feel about Jesse. Thanks to the semi-omnipresent point of view, we know he's remorseful. We know that in a way we couldn't be convinced of with a real life criminal, because we're with him when he's alone. We also know a lot about what led him to do the things he did, and again due to our point of view, we have a more detailed and objective knowledge of those motivations than we would otherwise.
But still, yeah, he would need to be put away. Partly because he's demonstrated ridiculously poor judgment that endangers others and partly because we can't afford to lose the deterrent effect (however weak) of punishing violent crime. But in a purely imaginary frame of reference where I knew but nobody else knew, so deterrence was not a factor, and I somehow had the level of insight that the show permits us to have into the fictional character, I'd probably have to think pretty hard about it.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: I was just rewatching that scene and I just noticed that Hank spits when he says "I don't give a shit about family"
Yeah, wtf was that about?
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
It's great. I wish it hit Cranston's face, and then he would improv off of it.
When Hank tells Walt to bring the kids over, was he saying "I want to know they're safe." or was he saying "I'm going to tell them (Jr)." I kind of read it differently both times I watched it.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: That said, I'm beginning to wonder if Walt ever really was the protagonist in Breaking Bad, or if it was always a story told from a villain's perspective. And if Hank was always the anti-hero.
The Atlantic just had a discussion about that very point, that Walt isn't the protagonist.
Hank isn't an anti-hero, he's a straight up hero. He's defended his family, he's fought the bad guys, he's suffered, recovered, and continued to uphold the law while going out of his way to help Walt and Skyler when they needed it. But if this last half season is told from his perspective, I think that makes things really interesting.
The problem, I think, is that Walt was in fact considered an anti-hero for a long time, and maybe for a long time he was. But he's long since passed from anti-hero to villain. His arc is opposite someone like Jaime Lannister, who went from villain to anti-hero, or Zuko from Avatar.
As to your other point, I guess it depends on what we mean by winning or success. I wanted Gus to win too, and I liked Gus as a character. I like Walt as a character. But I think he belongs in a fiery pit of hell, not swimming through his money vault like Scrooge McDuck, riding off into the sunset with his happy family. That's what a lot of people want, and I'm not sure I get it. There's a relative sort of rooting, like, hey these two bad guys are fighting and I like one more. But people who think Walt is a good guy who deserves to come out with a win are buying into his self-delusion and psychosis.
I find that fascinating.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Interesting post, Lyrhawn.
Here's how I feel about Jesse. Thanks to the semi-omnipresent point of view, we know he's remorseful. We know that in a way we couldn't be convinced of with a real life criminal, because we're with him when he's alone. We also know a lot about what led him to do the things he did, and again due to our point of view, we have a more detailed and objective knowledge of those motivations than we would otherwise.
But still, yeah, he would need to be put away. Partly because he's demonstrated ridiculously poor judgment that endangers others and partly because we can't afford to lose the deterrent effect (however weak) of punishing violent crime. But in a purely imaginary frame of reference where I knew but nobody else knew, so deterrence was not a factor, and I somehow had the level of insight that the show permits us to have into the fictional character, I'd probably have to think pretty hard about it.
Agreed. Indeed it really raises a lot of interesting questions about crime and punishment.
And the way we can see into his life utterly distorts our view of punishment, the same way it would if you were watching a husband or wife be punished, you'd beg for mercy no matter how awful the crime. And we've made that emotional connection with Jesse.
I think that's the thing with Walt now. People who still root for him have made that emotional connection. They actually share in his psychotic self-delusion to where they buy into his personal ideas of guilt, justice and punishment. So they believe, as he does, that he can just turn over a new leaf and go about his business. But a truly objective observer can call out that bullshit pretty fast, just like Hank did, or Jesse.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jeff C.:
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: I was just rewatching that scene and I just noticed that Hank spits when he says "I don't give a shit about family"
Yeah, wtf was that about?
It's an interesting statement, because obviously Hank DOES care about their family. He's done too much for them.
I think what he means is two-fold. 1. Walt using the family's happy ignorance as a foil for keeping himself free is bullshit, and means Walt cares more about himself than he does the family at large. He put his family in enormous danger.
2. He feels that outing and stopping Walt is better for the family. Why else would he have ordered Walt to bring the kids over to his house? He might have said "I don't give a shit about family," but his first instinct before anything else was to protect the kids. I think he might have meant "I don't give a shit about protecting the integrity of a family headed by YOU, Walter White." And that's spot on.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I suppose you're right about Hank. He isn't superman either, though--in that he is kind of a racist asshole to the people he interrogates. But that's his only real flaw. At the very least though, in the beginning I think we're meant to percieve with some very-restrained hostility, as someone whose getting in Walt's way. He's kind of a different type of anti-hero, if that makes any sense.
With a lot of stuff, I kind of waffle back and forth between what I think in while watching and what I think in hindsight. Like the main character in The Town. I was happy for him at the end of the movie. But in hindsight, he was a bad dude and he lived off of money earned in theft and violence. And sometimes I root for people just because it was fun to but I'm aware of it.
also also, I have been informed (by neogaf) that I misheard that hank line. he actually says "damn, like you care about family." But Walt kind of talks over him and I misheard it. I'll admit that I like my version more.
[ August 14, 2013, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: umberhulk ]
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
Oh wow, I guess I misheard him too.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
Protagonist doesn't mean "good guy," it means the character whose goals drive the action. Obviously Walt is the protagonist, and this season Hank is the antagonist.
Hank isn't an anti-hero, either.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Usually the protagonist is the person who the creator is trying to get you to root for. Even if he isn't the good guy. And Hank is driving the action as much as Walt, at this point.
Either way, a story of a hero from a villain's perspective.
[ August 15, 2013, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: umberhulk ]
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I found Walt's reaction to Saul's sugestion of a trip to Beleze for Hank to be very interesting. I think Walt really thinks of Hank as family, so even when he was threatening him it was with an eye for his safety. "If you really believe that of me you should be careful."
I just don't see either of them killing the other.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Also can we change the title to include spoilers for season 5.2 please. :-)
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Talking Bad has one of the most hideous sets I've ever seen.
Also, I've decided that the series ends w Walt shooting himself, like he was going to in the very first episode.
If it ends well, though, I think the internet would implode on itself. Part of me wants them to do it, but they won't
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I don't know, I think Walt's potential for ruthlessness is certainly up to the threshold of killing Hank-if it were expedient, and if he could build himself up (or perhaps down) to it. He's done many, many things which would have been thinkable to him before he did it.
But it's not, because at this point if Hank got a hangnail, Marie would hare off on her own to his friends and spill everything-and then they'd want him for hurting a cop plus everything else.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Man, if it builds up to that, I'll be off the seat. Not sure where I stand. He's taken risks to keep Hank safe before--but if Hank goes after that money (and he will) then all bets might be off.
Still waiting to see when the Mom from Malcomb in the middle shows up.
Posted by Heisenberg (Member # 13004) on :
Been busy, getting ready to move to the UK. But I changed the thread title.
Few thoughts.
I agree that Hank closing the garage was one of the most tense moments of the series.
"I'll send you to Belize," is now one of my favorite quotes from the show.
Would Skyler be willing to stand by her man like she did in the last episode if she didn't have a hundred million dollars or so riding on it?
I feel bad for Jesse, but man, I think my annoyance with his stupidity is starting to override those feelings. Next episode should bring him more into the mix of things, which is good.
We saw last season that Lydia was perfectly comfortable ordering gangland type killings, and we saw her actually carry through in this last episode. At this point I think it's likely that Lydia, Todd, and Todd's Nazi friends cause harm to Walt's family. Hank keeps investigating, Lydia finds out that Hank knows, Lydia takes steps to tie up loose ends, things go horribly wrong. One or more members of the family are dead, and Walt kills Hank in a rage because it's Hank's "fault." He then has to go on the run because Marie tells the DEA about him.
My guesses.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Yes, I think Skyler would. I think she's of two minds about all of this, but ultimately it was never about the money. She has a criminal mastermind to her as well, but at the end of the day, she only ever wanted her family intact. They could expand the car wash business and be able to launder a gazillion dollars, he could have cooked for months. But she wanted her family back.
Now she has her family back, and that's why she wants to beat Hank. Though I think the money helps.
I don't think Jesse is stupid, per se. I think he's given up.
The only way I see Lydia coming back to haunt Hank is one of two ways:
1. While Jesse is in with Hank, Jesse tells Hank that Todd killed the kid, because it's one of the big things weighing on his mind. As a result, Todd's uncle comes after Walt.
2. Todd's uncle knows that Walt is the only threat to their business and wants him offed.
The Lydia-Hank connection is interesting though. But that still makes Jesse the lynchpin.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Walt's threat makes no sense to me. No one at the DEA would believe it and all Hank would have to do is tell the truth about the situation and explain that Walt tried to use that video to blackmail him. If Hank was really Heisenberg, why would he have made every attempt to continue the Heisenberg investigation even after everyone else at the DEA wanted to drop it? No one is going to buy the story that Hank is Heisenberg. Regarding the money for his treatment, again, just tell the truth. His wife accepted the money to pay for Hank's treatment from her brother-in-law, obviously not knowing it was drug money.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: Walt's threat makes no sense to me. No one at the DEA would believe it and all Hank would have to do is tell the truth about the situation and explain that Walt tried to use that video to blackmail him. If Hank was really Heisenberg, why would he have made every attempt to continue the Heisenberg investigation even after everyone else at the DEA wanted to drop it? No one is going to buy the story that Hank is Heisenberg. Regarding the money for his treatment, again, just tell the truth. His wife accepted the money to pay for Hank's treatment from her brother-in-law, obviously not knowing it was drug money.
Nah, they'd totally believe it. First off, Hank has been acting weird for months.
And Walt explained away your biggest problem - he doesn't get credit for going after Fring because Walt framed it as Hank using his persecution of Fring as a personal vendetta and using the DEA to further his meth empire. And it's way more plausible that Hank, who knows exactly how the meth business works, started an empire than Walt.
It's not about getting Walt off the hook, it's about taking Hank down with him, and I think even if it didn't work, it'd absolutely get Hank fired and ruin him.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Oh it worked...in that it stopped Hank dead in his tracks.
Too bad Jessie made such a large leap of logic and is going all Jackson Pollack with a gas can on the White living room.
I have one question though...where is the infant daughter during all this? She tends to disapear conveniently whenever something goes down.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
I'm not buying it. If I were Hank I would go straight to the DEA, explain to them exactly how I found out about Walt, show them the video, put it in context explaining why Walt made the video, and let them do their investigation. Hank would get put on leave during it obviously, but there's no evidence convicting Hank and the truth would be obvious about who is lying.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Hank didn't go to the DEA with this BEFORE Walt muddied the waters with the video confession. He said himself that his career would be over. Now they would have to, at minimum, investiagte him hard core, retire hI'm early and utterly destroy his rep. Even possibly arrest and charge him. No. Hank was never going to turn over his investigation of Walt to someone else, nand now Walt has poisoned the well so Hank can not do anything without sacrificing his own career/lifestyle.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
How does Hank make it past the 'took 177 grand from my b-i-l's 'gambling winnings' and never asked questions about it or reported it as income on either end?' Or 'why did you brutally beat meth cook suspect, and why have you been on him ever since?' Or 'why didn't you tell anyone about any of this, ever? Are you dishonest or grossly incompetent?' Or 'how was it you came to know so much about Fring?' Or 'why did assassins come after you, personally, something almost unheard of for cops but not unusual for drug kingpins?'
I don't see how any of these and many other grave questions could so easily be explained, Gaal.
Posted by Heisenberg (Member # 13004) on :
The way that the confession scene was conceptualized, foreshadowed, and shot represents exactly why I love this show so much.
I don't know if Saul had his guys put a tracker on one of the barrels, or if the lottery ticket gets lost somehow, but there's no way that Walt or his family end up keeping that fortune.
I'm also gettig a bad feeling about Saul. Like, he's going to do something unexpectedly ruthless and come out at or neae the top. It would be just like this show to twist the knife and remind us vicscerally that even the comic relief is a monster.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I can't see Saul doing that. He knows his role, and I think he even likes it.
I agree with Rakeesh 100%. At the end of the day there's no evidence to support the fact that Walt has done anything at all over than Hank's brain and the book with Gale's handwriting in it. It's circumstantial at best and the trail has long since been burned. Hank was willing to risk his career before, but he wasn't willing to risk that the DEA would turn on him. And let's face it, it IS a plausible story from an outside perspective.
Stone Wolf -
Yeah, that's par for the course with TV. Everyone wants a baby but no one wants to deal with it afterward so it's always napping or being babysat. Either Walt Jr. is at home with the baby, or she's off somewhere else being watched for the day. But it's not like she's at home by herself.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Of course not there -by herself-...but with a baby sitter.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
I agree that Hank does have a lot to lose if Walt told the DEA his fake story, but I also believe the truth would come out eventually. However, Hank has already been through so much and Walt's story may or may not convince the DEA, but it does convince Hank to keep it a secret given how much he is emotionally tied up in this. And that's all Walt needs right now: to keep Hank from telling the DEA.
I think Walt knows his secret is no longer going to remain that way forever. I think he is just buying time to play more games and get things the way he wants them, whatever that may be.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
If Saul was planning on making his own move, he would have done so when his men had the money. All he would have to do at that point was send Walt to Belize (I love that line) and no one would ever know he has all that money, except his men whom I'm sure would take a healthy cut and everyone go their seperate ways.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I think Saul is too frightened of Walt to try something like that unless it was basically a guarantee he would be safe (as in, Walt dead) from reprisals. From where we sit it's plain to see how much unlikely luck has played a role in Walt's 'success', but from the perspective of other people-even Hank now, in a different way-Walt wins and other people, lots of them, end up dead or in Belize, including two (Fring and Mike) who should never have had any trouble with Walt at all.
Of course with the berserk Jesse factor at play, all bets are off.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I'm already grieving for when the show is over. However, things so far this season are great. I thought the latest turn of events was handled well.
I now think it's Marie who vandalizes the house.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
-If- it's decided by a fire fight, then Jessie, Gommie and Hank are all worm food. The DEA are so out gunned it's a joke.
Me thinks Gillian will have an ace up his sleeve. ..just can't imagine what it could be.
I have every faith the show won't turn stupid in the last handful of eppisodes and have Gomez and Hank WIN the gunfight.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
They're fighting professional killers. There's no realistic way they're missing firing 100s of rounds from that range.
And I agree with you, if somehow they have a guy with a friggin pistol and a guy with a shotgun take out 6 or 7 armored men with machine guns, I'll be pretty disappointed. Those odds are just too overwhelming.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think Hank and Gomie die and Jesse is captured with Walt. As Hank dies he tells Walt off and Walt finally breaks down and realizes the price was too high. But he's lost all his power now. Todd's uncle has all the power and a captive meth cooker. So Walt gives him Jesse to cook, who has to cooperate of else Todd's uncle will hurt Brock and Andrea. The flash forward is Walt on deaths door getting heavy weapons together to rescue Jesse from Todd's uncle some six months later. He goes down in a blaze of glory just like scarface, rescuing Jesse and securing a future for his family.
It's also possible that Marie ends up with his kids somehow, possibly to protect them when Walt has to go on the run. I think it would be the fairest ending for her.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: They're fighting professional killers. There's no realistic way they're missing firing 100s of rounds from that range.
And I agree with you, if somehow they have a guy with a friggin pistol and a guy with a shotgun take out 6 or 7 armored men with machine guns, I'll be pretty disappointed. Those odds are just too overwhelming.
Given Hanks takedown of Tuko, I believe he could take out a couple of them with a handgun. But there's no way he and Gomie weren't dropped five seconds into that battle. Too many heavy weapons that were too accurate from too short a distance. And it took them too long to get to cover. I'm a little confused as to why they were liberally spraying the SUV Walt was in, but I guess I chalk it up to carelessness?
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
*nods* It would be slightly more believable if it was a pistol-only fight. But I don't think many people realize just how ridiculously accurate assault rifles are at close range. I'm an average shot and can place headshots on a target at 500 meters... but for part of our rifle qual, we have to do rapid target engagement. We have bladed targets at 25M (the distance of the shootout in this episode) that present themselves for 4 seconds, in which time you have to raise your weapon, take it off safe, aim, and fire 2-4 rounds (depending on the drill). It's almost unheard of for someone to miss the target - rather it's graded entirely on weather you can hit their chest or the "T-box." (the area right above and between the eyes) But you can literally hip fire and still hit the target. Someone who had never fired a rifle in their life could come along, point the rifle at the target, and hit it. There's simply no realistic way Hank and Gomez didn't get wasted.
I honestly don't see why they didn't just end the episode with Hank and Gomez getting killed and Jessie and Walt getting taken prisoner. It would have been a much better ending.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Really, I think the portion of the fight they showed was already way too long with nobody getting hit.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: *nods* It would be slightly more believable if it was a pistol-only fight. But I don't think many people realize just how ridiculously accurate assault rifles are at close range. I'm an average shot and can place headshots on a target at 500 meters... but for part of our rifle qual, we have to do rapid target engagement. We have bladed targets at 25M (the distance of the shootout in this episode) that present themselves for 4 seconds, in which time you have to raise your weapon, take it off safe, aim, and fire 2-4 rounds (depending on the drill). It's almost unheard of for someone to miss the target - rather it's graded entirely on weather you can hit their chest or the "T-box." (the area right above and between the eyes) But you can literally hip fire and still hit the target. Someone who had never fired a rifle in their life could come along, point the rifle at the target, and hit it. There's simply no realistic way Hank and Gomez didn't get wasted.
I honestly don't see why they didn't just end the episode with Hank and Gomez getting killed and Jessie and Walt getting taken prisoner. It would have been a much better ending.
Yeah I totally agree. But I guess the alternative was to either have them all use handguns or have the fight take place at a much greater distance. Both were probably rejected because they weren't cinematic enough. It's a situation where they were damned either way, because making it realistic would likely have made it much less exciting for most people.
And despite how gun crazed Americans are supposed to be. Most people have little concept of how they actually work.
I just refer to the white pride guys as storm troopers now. Would seem to be highly trained, homogenous, racial supremacists who despite their training can't hit the broad side of a barn.
Posted by Sa'eed (Member # 12368) on :
I haven't seen the last three episodes. The first two were intense enough. I don't know how you guys can bare it.
I'll catch the rest over a weekend later on. But man, all that dread and intensity...
[ September 12, 2013, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: Sa'eed ]
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I agree with you guys about how Hank and Gomez should have been swiss cheese. With no prior training or experience with an assault rifle, I am still 99% sure I could have hit Hank at that range if I had him lined up in my sites like those guys did.
It kind of ruined the episode for me, to be honest.
Posted by Heisenberg (Member # 13004) on :
The stormtrooper aiming was a little off, true, but the show has often sacrificed realism for drama/coolness. Walt would have exploded himself driving the mercury fulminate to Tucos, and the little piece he threw wouldn't have made such a big explosion, and if it DID he would have had more then a bloody nose from it. It's still one of the coolest scenes in the series.
Gomez, I believe, is one hundred percent dead. Hank, I'd put the odds at seventy five percent. Jesse, sadly, I'd say is only twenty five percent likely to die from the shootout. I've wanted him to die since the season opener (I've soured on Jesse these last couple of seasons) but he's a fan and creator favorite and he's probably the most likely outside of the kids and Marie to be alive at the end of the show.
I like the idea of Walt handing him over to the Aryans to cook meth. It neatly solves all of his problems; he takes care of the murderous Jesse problem, and he's paid off the Aryans for their "service" in rescuing him. Given how Jack looked him straight in the eye when Walt was screaming don't shoot, and then did it anyway, I'd say Walt would be happy just to get them out of his life, period.
I'll also say it will be revealed that Gomez or Hank have managed to kill Todd in the shootout, thereby giving Walt and the Aryans no choice but to use Jesse as their captive meth cook.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Yeah that would be a good way to seal the deal, though that sort of makes the work they did with Todd and Lydia a little wasted.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Walt would have exploded himself driving the mercury fulminate to Tucos, and the little piece he threw wouldn't have made such a big explosion, and if it DID he would have had more then a bloody nose from it. It's still one of the coolest scenes in the series.
I'll take your word for it, but of course I know nothing about mercury fulminate. But if a viewer has even a passing familiarity with ballistic weapons of any sort, that scene has got to be tough on their suspension of disbelief.
I myself played paintball for a bit, and even as slow as those projectiles are, and how inaccurate they are compared to actual firearms... That's a hit 9/10 times I take the shot. If my whole paintball team has aim at that range and you aren't moving, you're going to be covered in paint after the initial volley.
If I were writing that scene, I'd just have had Gomez and Hank take cover when they saw the vehicles approaching. Problem solved. Perhaps I'll just edit my memory of the scene to include that .
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Yeah, the show has already made me roll my eyes a lot of times, the most egregious of which was the Gus death scene, but including all kind of crazy coincidences and the amount of speeding with impunity. The show hasn't been all that realistic, ever, it's just very clever and well acted.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Man, that last episode was sick (just watched it), but the end was a little too convenient. I think Jesse said it best, when speaking of Walt. He said he was the devil, that he was smarter and luckier than any of them. He's right. Walt has always, consistently come out on top and for no good reason. I can't say I mind it much, because it makes for some amazing TV. I mean I think we can all agree none of us has any idea where his show will end up going, and that's not something you can say very often.
Posted by Heisenberg (Member # 13004) on :
Holy crap.
Sorry, Sopranos, I have a new best show ever.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think next week Walt is alone in a room talking to himself for much of the episode. We will see a lot of guest actors from previous seasons who will manifest his inner demons and thoughts.
I think Heisenberg is dead. Walt is all that's left, and Walt was a good guy who wants to make amends. His phone call to Skyler was the first move.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
That phone call scene was very well done.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
RIP, ASAC Schrader.
And Jesse... oh Jesse.
I try to be critical when I watch TV, but this show has beaten me.
When Jesse was being led to the lab, I just wanted a mysterious sniper to appear and take Matt Damon's head off.
I don't even know if I want to watch the last two episodes.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I think in his last moments Hank understood and to a degree forgave Walt.
I must credit Vince Gillian for having the guts to straight up murder the hero of the show. I felt so let down by that firefight the episode before...but he came through, respected us enough to not shovel some BS supercop action movie unrealistic survival down our throats.
That being said...
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I would never say that Hank forgave Walt anything myself-rather he revised, in his last moments in light of Walt's behavior, his opinion of Walt as an utterly depraved, unrepentant monster.
The shootout was silly, but in my head I registered it as 'this is actually only a second or two, slowed down and shown from multiple angles for the drama'. That's how I rationalized it, anyway.
The phone call was superb. Big ups to Walter Jr., too, for recognizing right-from-wrong immediately. Walt is a victim of his own success as a parent there I think-Walt's son could only scorn Heisenberg.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Is it safe to say that the M60 Walt bought will be used against the Nazis to get either his money or Jesse back? Or both?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
That's been my theory for a little while now. The preview for next week made it unclear as to who is threatening whom in the voiceover. It could be that Walt's family is under threat either from the DEA or from the Nazis. If it's the Nazis, then Walt needs to kill them both to save his family and to rescue Jesse, but it's also entirely possible that Walt has no idea Jesse is even captive.
He might think they interrogated and killed them like they said they would, though it's clear from the beginning that Todd wanted him to cook, not for info. It's also possible that Saul's voice was referencing Andrea and Brock. But I think that the truth is out now, and Skyler is under constant surveillance from the DEA now that they know who Heisenberg is and that Hank is gone.
I also think that Walt is going to poison the Nazis, and himself. I think the scene we saw where Walt's was bent over on the ground after Hank was killed that perfectly syncs with Gus' look after his partner was killed by the Cartel is telling of what happens next. Gus almost killed himself for revenge to kill everyone involved with killing his partner. Walt went back for the ricin, and will risk killing himself and everyone else for revenge as well, and also for safety.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
I haven't seen the preview. I don't really understand why Todd wants to keep cooking when they just made $80 million, to add to whatever he made while partnering with Walt, which is probably substantial. Do they really need more?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
1. It's not just about making money. It's about pleasing Lydia. Lydia needs higher quality and Jesse is really the only means of doing that. Todd probably told Lydia he managed to do it himself to earn her favor.
2. For some people it's just never enough money.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Todd wants to be good at it. He's ambitious, has no moral compunctions, and wants to please Lydia, who wants this to keep going. I believe she's gotten a lesser cut throughout, and isn't sitting on as giant a pile of cash as Walt [was].
I'm wondering if they will try to close out the Jesse/Todd/Lydia stories at all, or if we'll be left to believe they continued on. It would be best if they would let Jesse off the hook, eventually. But at this point, no matter what happens, he'll never be at all OK. I didn't quite expect things to turn out so cruelly for Jesse.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
Out of all the characters, I hope Walt's kids, and Jesse make it out alive. Honestly I could care less if the rest of them kick the bucket.
Like many people, I hate Skylar, but lately I've been wondering why. If I were in the same situation as her, who knows what my state of mind would be?
I've never liked Marie's character at all. For her to act high and mighty and moral after her turn at crime (shoplifting, stealing from houses) is despicable. Hank knew his wife was doing this and did everything he could to get her out of trouble, but when it came to Walt there was no forgiveness. I understand what Walt has done is infinitely worse, but Hank didn't even want to hear an explanation.
Jesse has done some horrible things throughout the series, but mostly due to being coerced by Walter. Aaron Paul has done a wonderful job at showing that Jesse is truly a good, yet troubled person that is often taken advantage of due to his weaknesses. I could absolutely see Jesse getting clean, getting married, and winning multiple father of the year awards. I REALLY hope he makes it out of this whole thing alive.
Walt Jr. Can't die because he is needed for every single scene that involves breakfast foods.
Todd / Ginger Matt Damon / kid from Desperate Housewives seems that while he acts like he has no morals, the fact that he convinced his uncle to leave a barrel with Walt makes me think he isn't as much of a monster than the rest of his family.
I'm curious as to how they are going to finish up the series.
And don't forget the recently announced Breaking Bad spin-off, Better Call Saul!!! (I'm serious, this is actually happening)
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Oh come on, Marie had a minor larceny problem that was clearly linked some other psychological issues she was having. They are situations beyond compare.
Todd is an absolutely a monster. A psychotic, Batman-level villain.
The casual way he killed and melted down a child then described the operation as utterly flawless. All the small awful things he did since then, his bizarre relationship with Lydia, his complete lack of moral problems with mass murder, and the fact that he apparently tortured Jesse for information he didn't give a shit about, but only spared Jesse so he could keep him as slave labor while threatening to kill an innocent single mother and her son is absolutely horrific.
I think Todd is maybe the scariest single person the show has ever seen. Every other scary person on the show was completely sane and in control. They knew what they were doing. But Todd's wiring is different than anyone else's. He's crazy.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Great point. Todd really is a true psychopath.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
It's his casual nature, his calm, boyish demeanor, earnestness, and easy smile juxtaposed with his acts of vicious cruelty that make him so terrifying.
When he pulled Jesse from the pit cage after he'd clearly been brutally tortured and hooked him to the tether, with the picture of Andrea and Brock, but didn't say anything while he suited up to cook with him, I think that was really the most terror-inducing scene of the entire show. He knows that silent threats are far more terrifying than the ones you have to say out loud.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
That particular moment made me sicker than any other in the show's history. I'm sure that's what they were going for, the bastards.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
My predictions:
Walt goes on a killing spree, taking down all the neo-nazis. He eventually discovers Jesse and sees what's going on. After a bunch of debating about what to do, Walt will end up going down swinging (or shooting), but he'll save Jesse in a final act of goodness (although it will hardly make up for all that he's done). He, Todd, and most of the other bad guys will die, but Jesse will live, the lone survivor. Jesse will go back to the girl and her kid and the show will close out with him finally being free and capable of happiness.
Posted by Heisenberg (Member # 13004) on :
I was surprised that after all of the hero worship shown by Walt Jr. for his father, that he'd take sides so quickly.
His aunt and mother come up with a story he didn't see coming, and then it's his mother who tries to take a knife to his father. I can definitely see him jumping in to break them apart, but lying to the police about it being his father who pulled the knife?
Then again, he did follow Walt around for a minute or two trying to get him to explain his side of the story, and Walt just blew him off.
I, too, have a feeling that Jesse is bound to have a "happy" ending, which I feel is a little cheap. Jesse's hands are in no way clean, and when you come down to it he could have just hopped into that van and nobody would have had the current troubles; Andrea and Brock wouldn't be in danger, Hank and Gomez would be alive, Walt and his family could have just enjoyed his retirement (if estranged from the Schraders.)
WW's story has been interesting because it's been him making one little mistake after another, each one being less morally justifiable then the last. It turned him from a man who dearly loved his family and wanted to provide for them without anyone getting hurt to a man who dearly loved his family and wanted to provide for them, and if people outside the family had to die or be hurt in order to protect his freedom and safety, so be it.
The point where I jumped off the Heisenberg train was during Full Measure, when Jesse says Walt could just go to the police, testify against Fring, and get witness protection. Absolutely the best course of action, but Walt turned it down because he didn't want to...what? Be looked down upon in the community? Look bad in Hank's eyes? Whatever the reason, I couldn't agree with it.
And yet, in these last few episodes, I've started to feel real sympathy for Walt again. He may just be reaping what he's sown, but despite all of the proclamations of the fanbase that Walt was dead and only the soulless killer Heisenberg was left, he's been shown to still be a loving husband and father who cares deeply for his family. (Even his in-laws; I've got a couple of those, and I certainly feel loyalty to them, but I don't love them on the same level as I do my blood family. Which Walt, apparently, does.)
He just wants to talk Jesse down and enjoy retirement, but you have Skyler and Saul telling him he needs to murder again. You have Jesse ultimately forcing his hand.
The episode Ozymandias was a tragedy for everyone in it, and that includes Walter White. I felt really, really bad for him when you see him realize that he's truly lost his family, and all he's left with is a barrel of cash.
What's happening to Jesse is horrific, but he's never been a favorite of mine. He's become an icon of destructive justice; the idea that even if more people are hurt when punishing someone for their crimes, that that's okay, because justice is paramount above all. That's why Walt says and does what he does to Jesse; in his mind, all Jesse had to do was get into the van, and everything would have been okay. But because he felt the need to punish Walt, Walt's family member took a round to the head and got a shallow burial out in the desert. If not for Jesse, Hank was bound into a corner with no way to break out and take Walt down. There's that, and there's also the fact that ultimately Walt is even more responsible, but in that moment he's not open to that; he just sees that if not for Jesse, Hank would be alive and everything would be okay. And so he allows the Aryans to take Jesse away.
The ending that would satisfy me most would be Jesse and Walt both dead, going out doing something that could be considered at least vaguely heroic. I just can't bring myself around to the idea that Jesse "deserves" a happy ending. Marie, Walt Jr, and Holly ride off into the sunset. Whether they take a large amount of cash with them, I could go either way.
One thing I thought about today, was that on a rewatch this show is bound to be even more tragic. Knowing now what path Walt is walking down at the beginning, and knowing the consequences, watching the first and second seasons are going to be full of sad moments where you curse Walt for not quitting when he had the chance.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I don't think Walt is going to fire the big gun at all. I suspect he's thought of something cleverer.
Posted by Vasslia Cora (Member # 7981) on :
I have never liked, Walter Jr and his abrupt turn on WW seemed very out of character. I can get behind him trying to defend his mother but to whip out the phone, call 911, and lying about his father. Just felt forced to me but again, I never liked WJ.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Jesse's hands aren't clean...but he's also suffered the most.
quote:And yet, in these last few episodes, I've started to feel real sympathy for Walt again. He may just be reaping what he's sown, but despite all of the proclamations of the fanbase that Walt was dead and only the soulless killer Heisenberg was left, he's been shown to still be a loving husband and father who cares deeply for his family. (Even his in-laws; I've got a couple of those, and I certainly feel loyalty to them, but I don't love them on the same level as I do my blood family. Which Walt, apparently, does.)
I had this discussion with my friend while watching it. Our consensus was that Heisenberg died, and all that's left is Walt.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
quote:Originally posted by Heisenberg: The point where I jumped off the Heisenberg train was during Full Measure, when Jesse says Walt could just go to the police, testify against Fring, and get witness protection. Absolutely the best course of action, but Walt turned it down because he didn't want to...what? Be looked down upon in the community? Look bad in Hank's eyes? Whatever the reason, I couldn't agree with it.
It's a pride thing. He has always been like that. If you look at the history, there have been a ton of instances where Walt has let his pride override his logic. It's his biggest character flaw, and the show does a great job of showcasing it. If you look back on it, none of this would have happened if Walt had just taken the offer from his ex girlfriend/busines partner to pay for his cancer treatments. Instead, he told her to @#$% off. He refused help, even though it could have saved him from doing all of this illegal stuff. The further you go in the show, the more Walt's pride gets the better of him. I mean, there are at least half a dozen instances where you could say, "None of this would have happened if Walt would have just ----", and they mostly all involve him taking the deal and letting it go.
Now, I honestly do feel bad for Jesse. Despite his crimes, he has always valued life, especially kids. Except in self defense, I don't think he's ever actually killed anyone. He's tried to protect children whom he had no relations to. He's mourned people, whereas Walt immediately moved on (I mean seriously, look at how Walt broke down when Hank died, but then quickly picked himself up. Compare that to when Jesse mourned that kid on the bike or Jane, which lasted much longer). Jesse was willing to give up all his money, all because he understands the cost of it. What's more, he accepts that he's done these horrible things. Unlike Walt, he can't just move on. I think that's the real difference between them.
Like Jesse said before, Walt is the devil. No matter what happens in these next two episodes, Walt deserves to die. He has to. Jesse will probably live. Walt's family will live (their stories are probably done at this point). Saul will live. There's only one way I see this going, but I honestly hope I'm wrong and the show does something unbelievable and brilliant. If not, that's okay, because this sure has been one hellava ride.
Posted by Heisenberg (Member # 13004) on :
Last two episodes are 75 minutes. If any of you DVR it to watch later, set your timers accordingly.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Thanks for the warning!
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
It's getting ridiculous what they're doing to Jesse. It's too over the top already.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Really? It's terrible, but he's fallen into the clutches of a psychotic, murderous band of neo-Nazi-esque racists. And this outcome was completely in keeping with what has been shown before. Todd made the threat very clear, and he's shown himself willing to kill anyone without remorse and without looking for other options.
I hate seeing it but as storytelling? Through luck, skill, an connections Jesse managed to find himself with no power but enormously valuable skills in an environment that would e hard pressed to be more ruthless.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think the only truly psychotic one is Todd. The others are just regular evil.
That was pretty rough to watch.
But I think that was really one of the only parts of that episode worth watching. Most of the penultimate episode fell pretty flat to me. It was a contrived time waster.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I don't know, they all seem comfortable around Todd and he around them. None of them flinched for a second to threaten an infant, murder a completely innocent woman, torture a man, or help kill dozens.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Most of the penultimate episode fell pretty flat to me. It was a contrived time waster.
It was certainly less gripping than previous episodes have been this season, but I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that it was a contrived time waster. I think that it will be clear in retrospect whether it was necessary to show all of that or not.
I've been thinking about unsatisfying ways the show could end, and the best/worst I've been able to come up with is the whole thing turning out to be a TV show idea that Badger has been enthusiastically relating to a stoned-but-appreciative audience of Jesse and Skinny Pete, with the germ of the story being the news that a local chemistry teacher that Jesse used to have has died of cancer.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
That would be truly awful/awesome.
I'm wondering if he's going to try to do something bad to the Gray Matter executives. There's some wiggle room with how he departed the company - he's described what went down, but he could have been hiding something he was ashamed of or protecting Gretchen, and that could be something that could still hurt them (and could relate to his level of outrage when they downplayed his contributions).
Posted by narrativium (Member # 3230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jake: I've been thinking about unsatisfying ways the show could end, and the best/worst I've been able to come up with is the whole thing turning out to be a TV show idea that Badger has been enthusiastically relating to a stoned-but-appreciative audience of Jesse and Skinny Pete, with the germ of the story being the news that a local chemistry teacher that Jesse used to have has died of cancer.
Ah, yes, the "It Was All A Dream" route. Hallmark of lazy writers who can't think of a good ending.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: That would be truly awful/awesome.
I'm wondering if he's going to try to do something bad to the Gray Matter executives. There's some wiggle room with how he departed the company - he's described what went down, but he could have been hiding something he was ashamed of or protecting Gretchen, and that could be something that could still hurt them (and could relate to his level of outrage when they downplayed his contributions).
I doubt it. Walt wants to be remembered. But high school teacher and nice guy Walt is as dead as Heisenberg. He needs to be remembered for something else. He can't just go quietly into the night. I don't know exactly what he will do, but he'll do something to make a name for himself. But I don't think it will involve grey matter.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Maybe he'll decide to be a lumberjack. He's already moved to the right neighborhood.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I think Walt might certainly LIKE to do something to Grey Matter, but I also think he's triaging his efforts a bit now-it simply served as a spur.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Maybe he'll decide to be a lumberjack. He's already moved to the right neighborhood.
Hank was the one who wanted to be a lumberjack.
Sad face.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
Man, I wish there was another season of this show! They could easily put together a whole other season if they really wanted to, or at LEAST a few more episodes. I mean how are they going to wrap up everything in one episode? I just don't know how it's possible to do while still keeping it enjoyable.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
If there's one thing Breaking Bad has always excelled at, it's doing a lot with a little. They've turned the show in wildly different directions in the space of a couple of minutes, or seconds, at various times.
60 minutes is enough time to finish it up if they don't waste it.
But I think Breaking Bad is probably in the Top 10 Most Anticipated Finales of the last decade. Expectations are through the roof.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Unlike Dexter, which started out bad in the final season and got steadily worse, this show has remained good throughout the final season. Thus, I wasn't even disappointed by the stinker ending for Dexter, but I could be pretty let down by this show if they do it wrong. I think it'll be good, though.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I could have taped a xerox of my butt in front of a studio camera, filmed it for 25 minutes solid, and provided that unedited footage to be aired as the finale to dexter, and it would have been a marginal improvement over what got aired
breaking bad stands extremely little chance of being anywhere in the galaxypark of that kind of a letdown
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Solid ending but nothing outstanding.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
I thought it was perfect conclusion.
Posted by Heisenberg (Member # 13004) on :
quote:Originally posted by Obama: Mad Scientist Walt will attach the machine gun to a moving platform and use it as an armed drone.
Close enough! A shame I didn't come even close on anything else.
Damn good ending.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: Solid ending but nothing outstanding.
Yes. That's how I felt. They hit all the spots, they tied up all the loose ends.
It wasn't mind blowing. It was actually incredibly guessable, which isn't a big knock against it, but on a show that prided itself on major twists and turns, it was a yeomans no hum sort of effort.
I don't think we will look back on it as disppointing, but I also don't think we will look back at it as being knocked out of the park. It was just solidly done.
Posted by Heisenberg (Member # 13004) on :
Gilligan was right when he said Ozymandias was the best episode of the season, if not the series. They could have ended it there, and these last two episodes were more like an epilogue.
But they were still really good.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jake: I thought it was perfect conclusion.
Agreed. Couldn't ask for more.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: Solid ending but nothing outstanding.
Yes. That's how I felt. They hit all the spots, they tied up all the loose ends.
It wasn't mind blowing. It was actually incredibly guessable, which isn't a big knock against it, but on a show that prided itself on major twists and turns, it was a yeomans no hum sort of effort.
I don't think we will look back on it as disppointing, but I also don't think we will look back at it as being knocked out of the park. It was just solidly done.
Incredibly guessable sounds a little off to me. It was true to the series - and even the incredibly effective gadget thing was done relatively fairly (not exceeding the degree to which we've been asked to accept other plans working out over the show's run). But it was still clever. I thought maybe it stretched just a bit too hard to give us the idea that Skyler and Jesse were ready to accept what Walt had done, but at least they didn't go for forgiveness.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
It was incredibly guessable in that everything that happened was pretty much exactly what most of us thought would happen. Every prediction I read included a "ho-hum this is the most obvious thing we think will happen, but we don't think it will happen for that reason," and that's what happened!
So yeah, it was incredibly guessable, but that's only an insult if you want it to be. It's his attention to detail I appreciated. He tied everything up without really leaving loose ends. We may not know specifically what happened to everyone, but we know roughly what direction they were headed in.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
They didn't tie up everything. Is Huel still sitting in that room?
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: They didn't tie up everything. Is Huel still sitting in that room?
They totally should have had a scene, after a few moments of end credits, just showing Huell still sitting there in silence, staring at the door in anticipation.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
The poor guy is going to be stuck for television eternity waiting for Hank to return.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I loved this finale...no there where no major twists, just having Walt admit to Skyler that he did it because he liked it was unexpected enough for me.
I truly feel honored by Gillian for telling a true story, a tale that was true to itself. He respected us and his characters enough to kill them and let them be broken.
He respected the chemistry.
And while I will miss this show, I wouldn't change any of it.
I hear there's going to be a "Better Call Saul" spin off.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I'm not sure how guessable it really was-it's difficult to tell for me since they layered so much foreshadowing in previous episodes, many episodes ahead in fact. I agreed with Jake,
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I particularly liked that there were no 'I love yous' between Skyler and Walt, or Walt and Flynn. They didn't try to pivot back to some sort of emotional happily ever after-of any degree. Walt killed those relationships stone cold dead, with the only positive left as lingering hugely bittersweet regret for a relationship *long* past.
I'm embarrassed that I didn't see the ricin for Lydia coming sooner-truthfully I didn't twig to it until they zoomed into the tea, when everyone was supposed to get it.
Liked how Walt was able to tie in his vengeance against the Schwartzes and his need to try and get some money to his family.
Todd's ending was excellent, and I loved how Lydia was tapped out, looking stricken on her high thread count sheets with her humidifier.
I also liked how they highlighted how much luck has played a role-in the beginning when only a thin layer of snow on windows saves him from the cops.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I'm not sure how guessable it really was-it's difficult to tell for me since they layered so much foreshadowing in previous episodes, many episodes ahead in fact. I agreed with Jake,
What happened is almost exactly what I and a lot of my friends thought would happen. I read a guess on The Atlantic that was also remarkably close, and it was rejected by the author as being too guessable, too obvious, but it's exactly what happened.
It was almost an M. Knight Shyamalan type switcharoo. Get people so convinced that you can't guess what will happen that when you give them exactly what they expect, you get lauded for being tricky.
Meh.
I think it will go down as one of the more serviceable endings in the history of major TV shows. But I think a lot of people are just happy they didn't totally blow it, which is a pretty low standard. The New Yorker had a critic who wrote that she likes to think of the episode having actually ended in the car in New Hampshire, with Walt freezing to death in the car, and everything that followed was a fantasy. When you frame it like that, it's easy to see just how self-serving and fantastical the ending really was for Walt. It pretty much played out exactly as he planned and wanted it to from the moment he put the keys in the ignition. It would have been a bold choice, but I think it would have been far more in keeping with the show's nature to do something that extreme and out-of-left-field.
Posted by Vasslia Cora (Member # 7981) on :
I think this is the best ending that could have been done. We can bemoan about not having any big twists but we would have been pissed if Walt had dream the last episode.
I enjoyed the episode, I think it was near perfect.
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The show hasn't been all that realistic, ever, it's just very clever and well acted.
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