Starts tomorrow night. The beginning of the end. All hail the King.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
My wife and I are excited to see it! Bummed, though, that they are apparently dividing the last season into two parts, so we won't see the last half until next year.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Yeah, it'll be a bit longer than the other seasons though. You know what I think would be intersting? Lets have a time jump midseason, and in the second half, Walt's daughter is older. Like at least talking age.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Good start. Really threw a wrench into it with the mystery beginning. So far things are going about how I wanted.
The scene with Ted was interesting because she seemed to be apologizing even as he was begging for his life. Quite the twisted scene.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Did they get Ted to pay back the IRS before the accident, or is that still unresolved?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I like this show. It's so good.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: Did they get Ted to pay back the IRS before the accident, or is that still unresolved?
Unresolved. He got hurt while they were trying to figure it out. Unless we are to assume Huel dropped it on the mail.
Posted by Logan Cale (Member # 12841) on :
I thought that the show could have ended at the end of last season. It felt (to me) so final during the last episode... except for Mike of course.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
I won't feel like it's final until Hank finds out about who Heisenberg really is. That is the largest plot thread, which has been there since the beginning, that has yet to be resolved.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Walt ends up dead or in jail, I don't think we're done before that.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by Logan Cale: I thought that the show could have ended at the end of last season. It felt (to me) so final during the last episode... except for Mike of course.
Walt and Skylar are broke. Ted was still a giant loose end, even moreso if he wasn't alive. Mike. It would have been a good finale, and wouldn't have complained if they ended it that way, but there's enough intrigue to keep the show going.
Actually, you can make the case the end of Season 1 would have been a good ending, with Walt and Jesse just kind of looking at eachother in perplexed look of both accomplishment and disgust at Tuco. But they got the money. The end. Would have been great.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Okay, so here is the end I'd like to see:
Hank Sherlocks his way to Walt's door, and Walt starts monologing about all the stuff he has done, because now that Hank finally knows, he can't help himself, he has to brag. Only thing is, Jessie, Skyler and Walt Jr. are in the house, and can hear Walt spill all the dirty secrets, all the murders and evil crap and all the pride he has in it. We cut to the family, their faces drawn and disbelieving, and then we hear a shot, everyone flinches, and freezes! And Walt walks around the corner with a gun in his hand, and is surprised to see everyone there. They look at him and know once and for all who he really is. Cut to black. End of the show.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
That doesn't seem too unlikely. Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Skyler was so stupid for giving that dumb man money. I would never have given him a cent. Plus her husband went through a lot of trouble to get it. Selling or making meth is a stupid idea. Don't do it.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I will take that under advisement.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Thank goodness, she got to you -just- in time, hulk!
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Skinny Pete playing the piano was amusing.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
My wife had a dream two nights ago where Hank found out who Walter was, and they got into a fight that injured Hank, and he ended up in the hospital.
Then, Walter later showed up in the hospital while Hank was being wheeled down the hallway on a stretcher, and Walter was looking menacingly at Hank and the hospital staff, with a gun in his hand, ready to use.
Then the dream ended. Sounds like a pretty legitimate cliffhanger for this season, lol.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
On another note, I'm continually saddened by the fact that the show refuses to let Jesse have any sort of sustained happiness.
Walt pulled two super douche moves this week. I'd say it's a new record, but it probably isn't. Anyone who still thinks he's the hero of this show is seriously deluded.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
I'm convinced that Breaking Bad is the story of a regular guy who incrementally descends into badness and becomes totally depraved. I expect no happy ending...only tragic.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
That's, um.... Yeah, that's the point of the show. Seriously. The creators have said that's the point of the show.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I think the main point was his prediction about the end, which is still relatively in question, but yeah, the show will likely end with Walt dead or in complete unconsolable misery, the ending episode being titled "All Good Things"
I keep rewatching the scene where he spends that dollar.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
quote:Originally posted by Marlozhan: I'm convinced that Breaking Bad is the story of a regular guy who incrementally descends into badness and becomes totally depraved. I expect no happy ending...only tragic.
Fascinating insight. You might say the main character, a regular guy, is... breaking bad. Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Be fair, guys. Not all of us go and read whatever the show's creators have said. And "Breaking Bad" doesn't tell us how bad.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: I think the main point was his prediction about the end, which is still relatively in question, but yeah, the show will likely end with Walt dead or in complete unconsolable misery, the ending episode being titled "All Good Things"
Walt is going to be caught in a temporal paradox where he has to deal with himself from the first season, the present, and the future?
I hope John de Lancie is free that week.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
I realize that the name of the show states that he is breaking the limits of bad behavior. I am not that dense.
But we don't know how bad things will get and we don't know if there will be redemption in the end. There has always been the possibility of some kind of redemption. My point is that I am having serious doubts that any such thing will, or even could, happen.
Early on, there were expectations that, as he descended into bad behavior, maybe he would start to ascend again. Maybe he would learn lessons and finally get real. But no...it is becoming a crap storm and I think it is going to just keep heading that way, with Walter taking a lot of people with him.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
And no, I haven't read anything the creators have said, either.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Be fair, guys. Not all of us go and read whatever the show's creators have said. And "Breaking Bad" doesn't tell us how bad.
You're so, well, nice. And that's nice.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
My predictions for the ending (mind you, I haven't started watching season 5 yet):
Walt will get so deep into trouble that it will threaten the lives of his family. His wife, son, and daughter will find themselves in some sort of situation that seems inescapable. Walt will do everything he can, but he'll end up having to sacrifice himself so that they can all survive (maybe he even finds out he's got cancer again, so he figures he's going to die anyway...might as well have a purpose). His wife and kids run off, but magically discover that Walt has left them all a bunch of money with which to survive.
Jessie would probably survive, too. I'd imagine that he's probably going get saved by Walt, who has essentially taken over the role of protector/surrogate father.
I'm sure they'd throw in Hank, too, to make things even more complicated.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
He's already dead, in so many ways.
At this point, he's just going to do what he can for his family,financially, that is. He's so far gone that he's definitely not trying to salvage any emotions, at least where Skyler is concerned.
I don't see him rebounding and living happily ever after.
Jessie, now he still has a chance.
Obviously.
So, in the end, Jessie will probably be killed off in the most agonizing way and Walt will continue to be of the living dead.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Walt needs to die.
I think Jesse has a chance.
I think I want Hank to be the one to kill him.
That whole speech about how someone has to take the fall for letting someone like Gus live under their nose for so long, Hank is already screwed if Walt's identity becomes public. I think Hank needs to find out privately and end it privately. Besides...Walt has it coming, and Hank suffered personally for his crimes.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I think Jesse is going to kill Walt after Walt kills Hank and Skyler.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I think Jesse is going to kill Walt after Walt kills Hank and Skyler.
Now THAT would be disturbing.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Even worse: projecting, I believe Walt will kill Skyler because she intends to turn Walt over to Hank after Walt does something that indirectly results in the deaths of one or more of their children. I say "indirectly" because I think Walt will be mostly innocent of the wrong that finally pushes Skyler over the edge into hating him more than she fears him, just for the sheer irony of it.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Oh god I hope not...*wince*
Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
Walt Jr. overdoses on the blue meth that Walt has been making. That is what pushes Skyler over the edge.
I have seen seasons 1 and 2 and only a few months have gone by. Do the other three seasons move the time line along further? If not, Walt's cancer coming back is unlikely. He was in remission and the tumor shrunk by 80%.
That is one of the problems with stories that take many years to tell but only cover many months, or a year of the characters lives. We think of Walt having battled cancer for 5 years now and in his time it has been months, not years.
msquared
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I was actually hoping that Skyler's own "Breaking Bad" (setting up and running the drug front, threatening Ted) would continue and that she'd become something of a partner for Walt. Maybe even end up in charge of the operation in some ways.
I think scared and bitchy Skyler is painfully boring, personally. AMC is getting a reputation for having shrill and annoying wives in their flagship shows (Betty Draper, Lori Grimes, Skyler White). I am starting to think the reputation is an earned one.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Scared, yeah, she's scared. Bitchy? I don't think we've seen any real "bitchy" yet.
I would like to see "scared and bitchy Skyler" busting out and schooling Walt! Show him where "breaking bad" can really go when a woman's children are threatened.
Marie will lose her whacked out innocence and be the Louise to Skyler's Thelma. Blood, you know, thick bonds.
Pleaseohplease, just leave Jessie and his "instant family" alone, sitting on the couch, eating tacos and pizza, playing video games. Just leave them alone.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I don't think we've seen any real "bitchy" yet.
Maybe not this season, but certainly in past ones. Her going back to being scared of Walt just seems like a regression of all of her "growth" to me.
I may be alone in this. But the subplot of Skyler joining in on the criminal activity was one of my favorites, and seems to have been abandoned.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
To be fair to Skyler, even his partners should be terrified of Walt right now.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think the only one who isn't at least a little afraid of Walt is Mike. Well, I'll take that back, I bet Mike is afraid of what might happen as a result of being associated with him, but I don't think he's afraid of Walt directly killing him.
Skyler needs to change. This catatonic fright thing makes sense maybe, after Walt's "I am the danger!" speech and what happened to Ted, but for the sake of good storytelling she needs to shake it off. It's boring.
I really don't see Walt Jr overdosing on blue meth. I mean it'd work, though I think it'd be incredibly obvious. He seems like basically a pretty good kid, and I think he's even still smarting from that episode where Walt got him drunk.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote: Skyler needs to change. This catatonic fright thing makes sense maybe, after Walt's "I am the danger!" speech and what happened to Ted, but for the sake of good storytelling she needs to shake it off. It's boring.
Exactly.
Double Edit: Nevermind, it was both.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Fun fact. Walt's blue meth makes a cameo in The Walking Dead.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
When? I can't believe I missed it!
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:Blue Sky makes a split-second cameo appearance in the AMC series The Walking Dead, in the episode titled "Bloodletting". It can briefly be seen in Merle Dixon's drug stash which contains crystal meth among other drugs.
Totally caught that when I was watching, didn't you? Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
You know I've never done any recreational drugs or drink. But I might get drunk for the eventual season/series finale. #BBADDICT
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
It's about time they had it out.
If I was Walt, I'd make my own breakfast and coffee for the foreseeable future.
Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
Lyrhawn
You see that is why it is so tragic, it is an accident or something. Walt Jr. does not do it on purpose and it is not his Dad's product.
I don't know enough about how you take meth, but is there a way for someone to sneak it to a person? Like dumping a pill in someones drink? I am assuming you can die from an overdose of the stuff? How much would be needed?
Is Walt Jr. on meds for his condition? Could there be some interaction between the meth and his meds?
If Walt Jr. dies from a meth overdose, even if it is not Walt Sr. meth, I can see Skyler going off the deep end and maybe even Walt Sr. accepting it.
msquared
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
There's a theory that the Ratatouille plug is forshadowing that Mike has a mole in the DEA. Somewhat plausible. Mike calling her when he did also makes you curious, but he could of just had someone watching that building.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by msquared: Lyrhawn
You see that is why it is so tragic, it is an accident or something. Walt Jr. does not do it on purpose and it is not his Dad's product.
I don't know enough about how you take meth, but is there a way for someone to sneak it to a person? Like dumping a pill in someones drink? I am assuming you can die from an overdose of the stuff? How much would be needed?
Is Walt Jr. on meds for his condition? Could there be some interaction between the meth and his meds?
If Walt Jr. dies from a meth overdose, even if it is not Walt Sr. meth, I can see Skyler going off the deep end and maybe even Walt Sr. accepting it.
msquared
It just doesn't make sense. Walt Jr. has never shown even the smallest problem in that area. His parents never even caught him smoking, and after Walt more or less dared him into getting drunk I think he'd be gunshy.
To suggest that he'll die of a meth overdose would come ridiculously out of left field. I wouldn't buy it.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: There's a theory that the Ratatouille plug is forshadowing that Mike has a mole in the DEA. Somewhat plausible. Mike calling her when he did also makes you curious, but he could of just had someone watching that building.
The phone call was suspicious. But if he knew ahead of time, wouldn't he have given her more than 30 seconds of notice?
Hard to say, but I like the theory.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
Well, I don't imagine it's a coincidence that Hank is being offered a job that will pull him off the investigation. There are definitely rotten elements high in the DEA.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
The phone call 30 sec before was -so- Matrix...and stupid, what is the point of warning someone if all you give them is time to take a deep breath?
I did find it hilarious that the German on speaking phone was still talking when she got back.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jake: Well, I don't imagine it's a coincidence that Hank is being offered a job that will pull him off the investigation. There are definitely rotten elements high in the DEA.
Well, I'm not so sure that's a means to take him off the case (when he can just as easily assign someone or several someone's to take his place and report to him).
I think it's a storytelling element to put Hank in his boss' position, whereby when Walt is finally discovered, or the threat of Walt coming out is revealed, it'll mean Hank's career is over.
I also find it impossible to believe that Hank will let it go. If he held on as long as he did under the circumstances he did, there's no way he'll let go now that he actually has his hands on some power.
Who could possibly have a high level DEA official in their pocket at this point? The cartels involved with this are all dead and gone, and the DEA sapped all of Mike's financial resources, else he wouldn't be with Walt, unless the first thing he did was run out with his first payment to buy off the DEA guy again. I dunno.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
It'll be interesting what does happen to Hank, if Walt gets caught. It would be weird. Hank's career is saved and completely-turned around, and then destroyed because of solving the same case.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
So... I have not actually been following this show. But read this article about the show's implications about race, and curious what people who *had* watched it thought:
I wouldn't bite the apple and agree with him, but he makes an intelligent-curious case.
But if I were playing the devil's advocate with him, almost every character that he talks about is somehow connected to the drug cartel--or a person he or she has hired, and it would make sense for them favor people from their countrie(s). Secondly, Breaking Bad is like watching a slow motion car crash. Nothing in is "supposed to happen", and the show's best quality is that it's a show about concequences and the lives Walt effects, and many of them are connected to the cartel because it's a show about making drugs in New Mexico.
If Gomez dies I think that guy is going to throw a tv at the wall.
[ August 07, 2012, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: umberhulk ]
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
That article is a little silly. Would he be arguing the same points if Walt was hispanic and everyone else was white? Would he instead be saying something like "Oh, psh, they're basically saying that hispanics are naturally evil and prone to be criminals!"
What was it that Morgan Freeman said when he was asked how to stop racism?
I believe it was: "Stop talking about it."
Listen to Morgan. He knows.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think he's tapping into something interesting, but he's going about it all wrong.
It's easy to come up with his conclusion if you set out to prove a point, rather than analyzing a show to see what makes the most sense. I would only agree if I thought the showrunners specifically sought out to create a structure that supports his racist theory. I don't agree. Therefore everything he says is loosely circumstantial.
And the thing about it is, what if the situation had been reversed and Gus was white and Walter was Hispanic? Should the whole cast be Hispanic? Mixed up in the drug culture world, I'm pretty sure there's no escaping something that someone could pin on the show for being racist.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I would agree with that. I suppose the show is in danger of effecting people's perceptions of race, but unless that was the goal, you can't blame the artist for his audience not having the ability to critically think.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Also, he talks about Skyler and I agree with him. She always annoyed me in the early seasons because she felt like a plot device, and not a character. And her dialogue. But in recent seasons I don't begrudge her.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
"This show is racist" comments are not about the *intent* of the author. That's not the point at all. It's not about intent, and it's not about that show in isolation.
Normally I'd be up for arguing about how people are affected by media no matter how critically they think and artists have a responsibility to understand that. But in this case that's really a side point.
What's interesting about this review was that it wasn't so much saying "this show is racist." It was more "this show, intentionally or not, deals with a lot of issues with race, and can be viewed through this lens. Walter gets away with things because of his privilege, the show can seen essentially him trying to hold onto that privilege.
The consensus in the comments that follow seems to be that the show *probably* knows what its doing, and is in fact making pretty important points, but that viewers often miss them because they're latched onto Walt as a protagonist they're still trying to identify with.
I like this particular comment:
quote:The problem for me is less the writers and more the viewers, though I agree with many of these points. We were supposed to lose sympathy for Walter White a long, long time ago, yet viewers (at least from what I’ve seen on comment boards) continue to defend and justify Walt at every turn, scapegoating Skyler and making excuses for all of Walt’s bad behavior.
Whenever I discuss BB with acquaintances it always comes back to ‘when did you know Walt was irredeemable?’ and it’s interesting how the answers vary. For me it was Hugo. The scene in which Walt use the ladies at the laundry echoes that point in the first season when Hugo, the Latino custodian, is fired after Walt steals lab equipment from the school.
That event effectively illustrates how Walt’s race and class privilege shields him from suspicion and how he is able to pass off the consequences of his own actions onto people of color. Weeds is the story of a wacky white lady adventuring into the world of POC and having a zany laugh; BB is the story of how a white middle class person uses and abuses his privilege, sacrificing the lives of POC and poorer people at every turn.
Edit: Also, the majority of people I post with hate the shit out of Walt now. We can root for him to survive long enough to realize what a shitbag he's become, or part of us root for him because it's fun to root for a criminal protagonist as he tries to destroy a laptop with a magnet. But right now he's unmistakably a wanker.
(And there's actually a brief arch in Season 4 where I, and most viewers, were actually rooting for the bigggest antagonist in the show). But then we all went back to hating him.
[ August 07, 2012, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: umberhulk ]
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
SPOILERS for stuff seasons 1-4 (but I don't think that's necessary for this thread, really)
I stopped empathizing with Walt as a man of even a personal claim of decency that was itself another piece of denial, back when he murdered Jesse's girlfriend Jane. He didn't choke her out or anything, but he did watch her die for his own (and Jesse's, or so he likely told himself) benefit when all it would've taken was a move of his arm. That's cold blooded premeditated murder in my book. There may be other events I'm forgetting, but to me he crossed a thick straight black line in white paint right there.
Of course the truth is, his personal honor had taken a LOT of dings ever since he decided to sell an incredibly poisonous destructive narcotic tied up in extreme violence and death rather than swallow his pride and take money from old friends who may or may not have screwed him.
I was willing to empathize with him as a fundamentally good guy until then, someone whose terrible urgent desperation drove them to an awful set of decisions. After that, well, he was the villainous protagonist who loved his family but would do most anything or use most any kind of violence or depravity for either their sake...or his own pride. Still thumped the couch in satisfaction when he killed Gus and Victus, though;)
But the apparent preference and liking for Jesse in this thread is surprising to me, since Jesse has done some despicable things himself. Much of it was when he was mired in addiction which mitigates some responsibility, but much of it was also done stone-cold sober out of either fatalism or greed or I don't know what.
He, too, peddled meth to people with even less of an attempt at justification than Walt. He went to meetings to sell meth to desperate addicts attempting recovery. He can be partially blamed for getting Jane back on drugs, which (along with Walt) eventually killed her. He couldn't keep the peace for even half a day because 'they had to go' (the car riding kid-using dealers), knowing full well that he was near the very top of a pyramid of drugs that utterly destroyed or ended hundreds and thousands of lives of children across the Southwest-he even saw a thorough example before the junkie's head got smashed by an ATM.
It seems to me that the only real, untainted virtue either of them can claim is loyalty to one another. I was really impressed and sadly proud the many times, even when Gus was wrapping Jesse around his finger, that he refused to kill Walt, and Walt refused it too, or even refused to allow it. That's why I suspect the end of the show will involve one of them betraying and or killing the other: it would be the thing that killed the last shred of decency and humanity between the pair of them: that loyalty and mutual, even when totally dysfunctional, protection.
I vote for Walt making it out of this alive and unimprisoned, because I think that would fit with the themes of the show. His formerly mediocre, professionally disappointed life will be an utter ruin behind him, but at numerous points we've seen his ruthlessness twist towards self-preservation, money, or pride, and when he actually takes the time to think he has proven to he a successful, skilled criminal sometimes.
Jesse I think will end either dead, a meth-ruined junkie, or a hardened criminal and killer. I don't think he'll keep his lovely found family-it certainly wouldn't be his pattern. He discarded his first one, his habits and lifestyle helped kill Jane, and how long will his third one last once they start to get a handle on who he really is? That's been Walt's pattern: the more his wife learns about him, the more repelled she has become-but having such history and entanglements, it's been a slow process even though she was quick to note something was wrong.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Don't think Jesse discarding his parents has any bearing on what his fate will be: If you go all the way back to the very first season, his parent were awful people. Would ABSOLUTELY discard them if I were in his shoes: his grudge originates from before he ever got hooked on Meth, or got kicked out of his house. He also genuinely feels entitled to the house because of the service he gave to his grandmother. Don't have to approve of him, but his relationship with his parents is so complicated and repressed, that drawing any conclusions about him and his new family seems overzealous.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Jessie said he broke up with Andrea in the last episode...if memory serves.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
He did, but it might not stay that way.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Amazing scene.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
If his recounting of events with his aunt was accurate-and his mother didn't deny it-then their decision to boot him and sell the place themselves wasn't clean cut. But 'awful people'? They seemed very vanilla to me, having gone through many bouts trying to help their son who variously lied to or stole from them, until the point they'd had it. I would've had more respect for them if they'd taken the money for the proceeds and spent it on some sort of rehab for him or something-actually something like what Walter tried, for selfish reasons too, to do: hold his money until he was clean.
I think what I said stands: Jesse has had exactly one, perhaps two, families: his biological one, and Jane. One he apparently alienated until they washed their hands completely of him, and did so repeatedly. The other he knowingly used in front of and then shared drugs with her despite knowing how long she'd been clean...and incidentally, Jesse and Walter own a big piece of those hundreds of aircraft deaths, and between them their actions helped totally destroy Jane's actual family.
Anyway, as for drawing conclusions about Andrea and Brock-for all he railed against Walt for bringing devastation into his own life, he has done exactly the same to Andrea's family. From the nastiness he deliberately involved himself in, Andrea's younger brother was murdered (after having been a killer himself), and her son was nearly fatally poisoned, was terribly injured. All of this comes after, you'll remember, Jesse's utterly selfish intention of selling meth to addicts attempting recovery. Even freakin' Badger and Skinny Pete had the moral fortitude to call that sleazy.
And Jesse has known them, what, a few months? How many family members does Andrea have? The thing is, you cannot safely have a family and do the work either of them do-another of the points of the show, I think.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
There's a scene with his parents and his little brother in Season 1. They just seem like dumb, overbearing, and somewhat oblivious parents, and generally annoying people. There's subtext that they way he was raised led to his life in drugs, when we see that its begun to happen to his younger brother (Jesse gets kicked because they find some weed that they thought belonged to him, but really happened to his brother, who was pretty young to be smoking weed)
And you're right. We have no great to expect it to last, given the circumstance of his profession and for things in this show to go wrong. Or given that there are secrets he will always have to keep from them.
But I don't think that Jesse's parents are a good reason to think that Jesse isn't altruistically capable of sustaining it. His alienation of his parents is something that he thinks they deserve; he doesn't feel that way about Andrea.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I think if you asked around, your perspective on Jesse's parents would seem remarkably harsh and overly critical. Do they have the tools to deal with their son's problems? Well, clearly the answer is no. But it's equally clear they've been around and around multiple times with drugs in the house, low level criminality, and the numerous necessary lies that go along with all of that. Even after many of those, when he staggers into their home in the back yard at night, clearly high, they did still let him stay. There was never any subtext shown that the 'way he was raised' led him to meth cooking and dealing, either. I have no idea where you got that from. Jesse did get kicker for his brother's weed...but of course, he was still using and dealing and cooking meth, so he hardly had any moral authority to complain-aside from being a grown adult.
As for things going wrong-Jesse and Walter are still alive, despite how quickly they jumped into the frothing carnivorous end of the drug dealing food chain, and Jesse at least has managed as of early S5 to keep his money. I actually count the pair's ongoing survival as a big win, considering.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Regarding Jesse's number of families:
You don't think Walt is a surrogate father?
He still calls him Mr. White for God's sake.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
I liked Jane. The beautiful tattoo artist with no tattoos. Ironic? Not at all! (Keith Browning )
Walt's downward spiral makes me only wish him away from anyone else, so that he can't hurt another person, ever.
Jessie's struggle to do the "right" thing, is hazily obvious. So, I wish him happiness and some type of future redemption.
These feelings could change with one episode. We could see Walt completely jump the "hell on wheels" track and wake up, becoming emotionally vulnerable and available. We could see Jessie permanently give up and die emotionally as Walt's done. At that point, I'd be cheering for Walt and wishing for Jessie's downfall. I'm so fickle that way. I'm so easily played.
Gilligan is good at his job. Can't wait to see the drama he's prepared for us.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I think there was subtext that a variable, atleast to Jesse, was that his parents made him miserable when he was kid.
And yah I'm deliberately being harsh, but again, the main point of contention is Andrea.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Regarding Jesse's number of families:
You don't think Walt is a surrogate father?
He still calls him Mr. White for God's sake.
I agree with you here. Walt even calls Jessie his 'nephew' when he's talking about him to Jane's father at the bar. It was one of those moments where you really start to understand Walt's treatment of Jessie. He calls him an idiot sometimes, but also takes pride when Jessie does something right. There was also that scene back in season 2 where they're cooking up a huge batch in the RV out in the middle of nowhere (right after the RV dies and they're making a battery) and Walt starts teaching him how the battery works. You can tell the joy he takes from watching Jessie learn in that scene, so I think there's definitely some fathering/mentoring going on.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
Talking about the paths each of the characters are going down, I have come to view them like this:
Walt is obviously breaking bad. He's going to destroy everything in his life until he is so completely devoid of human decency that he will no longer be recognizable from the man we saw in episode 1.
Jessie is the complete opposite. We saw him start out a degenerate. We knew he was a criminal and we didn't expect anything from him. Over the course of the show, however, while we have seen Walt gradually descend into madness, Jessie has had almost as many moments of clarity and civility towards his fellow man.
A case could be argued that the two of them are ships passing in the night, each heading from one side to the other. In the latest season, Jessie seems to lack the criminal ambition of past seasons, while Walt's greed and lust for power have only grown. They're essentially turning into the other's former self, something that will eventually force them to brake apart, potentially ending with one of their deaths.
I personally think there's a strong possibility that Jessie is going to end up killing Walt, possibly to save Walt's family (wouldn't that be ironic?). In the end, Walt would have become the worst threat to his family's well being, while Jessie would be the one to save them. It would be perfect symmetry.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:You can tell the joy he takes from watching Jessie learn in that scene, so I think there's definitely some fathering/mentoring going on.
In hindsight, it's easier for me to integrate this scene into Walt's character by assuming that it's not a love of watching Jessie learn, but a love of being the authority, of placing himself above another. But then, maybe I need to watch that scene again to be sure. I think it's probably fair to say Walt had his good side in the beginning.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Well, we see Walt's enthusiasm for personal instruction in those first season flashbacks. I miss those. But yeah, to me there was duality to everything Walt did in the early seasons.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Whew, just started 5-04, and Walt looks to be seriously coming off the rails. That's like three seriously irrational, money-is-no-object flagrant decisions he's made in less than a day (the sale of the Aztek for $50, and then the leasing of the two big ticket cars).
Also, I think Skyler's cringing anxiety stems at least in part due to it being her who lost the $600K. It's not a bad decision on terms with meth cooking, but in terms of saving the remains of her family, that was an enormous and hugely costly mistake.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: ...
QFT.
But you had to guess that something like that was going to happen after the first 45 seconds or so. It was painfully obvious. What I didn't see coming was who actually pulled the trigger. That was a surprise. They set the previews up to make the killer the victim.
Also, poor Jesse
He's finally having a run of really great, creative, outlandishly successful ideas, and most of them manage to find a way to horribly backfire.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
That made me feel decidedly ill.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I was actually wondering if that was flashback with Jesse. Wasn't think about it that way. But maybe I should have.
Wow. Just freaking wow.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I still wouldn't say 'poor Jesse' (but that's because I decides early on that, given the trade they're in and the knowledge they have of it, none of them are anything better than conflicted evil), but as someone who can't help but root for the protagonists...yeah.
I wonder if Walt would've found a way, right in front of Jesse, not to kill the kid? We already know he's willing to committ cold-blooded murder of children, but I wonder if he would've tried it.
I wonder how they'll go about concealing this corpse. If it's their usual method, man, Jesse thinks he's distraught now.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
I don't think Walt will ever openly do something that Jessie can blame him for. He was willing to poison that one kid and watch Jessie's girlfriend die, but only because Jessie would never find out about it. He wouldn't kill some kid, knowing that Jessie doesn't want it to happen. Walt really likes Jessie and has even gotten to the point where he respects him, so I think he'd try to avoid hurting Jessie opinion of him.
Still, I think eventually Walt will do something that Jessie simply cannot forgive and it will shatter their relationship. When that happens, we'll probably see everything go completely off the rails.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
S05EP2 Spoilers. In extremely bad taste (and if I say that I mean it), but funny as hell.
I think you might be on to something, Jeff. Jesse is one of only two people, actually, who really have any image in their mind of Walter White as both criminal on the one hand and decent human being on the other. Skyler is I would say the other, and she has recoiled in horror and disgust. Jesse is the only other person who actually has any inkling of both sides of him. It wouldn't be surprising to me if Jesse seeing him as Skyler does would be something that would sting much more than expected for those reasons, but also because of all the conflicted dysfunctional teacher-student/father figure thing they've got going on sometimes.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Also, Walter has lost a lot with Skyler seeing him as a danger to his children, and as a bad father. Having Jessie look up and respect him is even more important as so few people do now.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I looked up "Awkward" in the dictionary and it was a picture of Walt, Skyler and Jessie sitting around a dinner table.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Wonder if there's a believable way Sky can tell Jesse about Lily of the Valley.
[ August 28, 2012, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: umberhulk ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
SPOILER FOR MOST RECENT EPISODE. . . . . . . . If Walt doesn't end up dead by the end of this season, there's no justice left in the world. I KNEW it. I mean, gyah, I knew it. I knew at the beginning of this episode, the beginning of LAST episode, that it was heading for this, but I still hoped somewhere deep down that Mike would be able to drive off into the sunset and could just be RID of Walt.
Does his grand daughter at least get to keep the money? I mean come on, that's what he cared about most, it's probably the only reason he stayed in as long as he did, to provide for her. Did they take that too? Or is it still safely stored away in the lockbox?
I desperately, desperately want Jesse to find out about all the horrible things Walt has done. I just know when he gets back he'll tell Jesse that Mike made it away safely to some tropical island. Jesse will be none the wiser. I want Jesse to go to Hank and spill everything. He'll be so anger, so guilty, he won't even care about asking for immunity, he'll just spill it all to bring Walt down.
Mike was my favorite character. With him gone, all I have left is Jesse, and though his loyalty to Walt is finally starting to break, I just can't help but feel like he's going to be sucked back in, AGAIN. And Walt trusts Todd? Todd?.
You know how I really want this to end now? Walt finishes teaching Todd (aka, Ricky Hitler) how to make blue meth, and Todd, not needing Walt but having totally seduced him with the prospect of a willing protege who will genuflect in deference, will off Walt with the same casualness he offed that kid.
Walt doesn't have cancer, Walt is cancer!
/rant
Edit to add: And how the hell are people still on Walt's side? I read reviews talking about Walt's defenders, and without being slightly sociopathic yourself, I don't see how anyone can actually defend him or at this point claim he has a single redeemable quality.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I agree. Though, the air I get out of that flash forward in episode one, is that Walt seems sobered and diminished, so something may happen that stabilizes him. Can't wait for the next episode.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Yeah, but he was also buying a .50 cal machine gun, from the looks of things, and I think I remember him having the Heisenberg hat with him (correct me if I'm wrong).
Plus he left like a $100 tip on a breakfast he never ate. Didn't strike me as a guy who was humbled, just as one who had mo' money mo' problems.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Well his cancer was back, so he doesn't really need it to live on. And you could also read it as wanting to do something generous before possible going to his death. Gilligan also hinted at why he's buying the gun.
Jim Beaver was pretty funny in the scene where he's selling the gun to him.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
I hated that scene where Mike looked at his granddaughter just as the cops were pulling up and he had tears in his eyes. I know he's a hit man, but I still feel sorry for him and it broke my heart.
Walt is pissing me off and I want Jesse to find out everything and bring Walt down in flames.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Just a nit pick...the gun is an M60, .308 (7.62×51mm NATO) -not- a 50 cal.
[ August 29, 2012, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: Stone_Wolf_ ]
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
See you guys next July.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
What a great twist...
Walt gets out, does the right thing by Jessie, makes peace with Skyler and...Hank figures it out on the can.
Awesome show!
Edited to correct incorrect auto-correct correction.
[ September 03, 2012, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Stone_Wolf_ ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Hank's discovery is a little dubious. They even played the scene a few years ago where they both laughed off him being a drug lord. What that's happened lately has changed his point of view that would make him think it's Walt?
I guess maybe it all just clicked in his head. A hundred tiny things he laughed off over the years all reached critical mass. That's possible.
We're in for an interesting season next year.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Correction:
Duh! Nevermind, I forgot that the GB in the inscription was Gale.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Yeah, same words, same handwriting. Different book.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, it made sense to me that such a semi-intuitive leap would be possible. He has seen Walt do some pretty strange things over the years, things that were dismissed almost or even entirely because he was family.
I'm thinking of 'by chance' blundering into that stakeout of...was it Badger? Of abruptly swerving into a car just as Hank was being driven to one of Freen's locations, which if I'm not mistaken later turned out to be the big one. Or Walt's connection, explained away at the time, to the found chemistry lab supplies. Especially the surprisingly large sums of money Walt obviously has at his disposal, whereas before they were on the brink of ruinous poverty. Also, does Hank know of Walt's connection to Jesse from Skyler, for 'buying pot'?
Then there's the other stuff, less likely to raise a cop's suspicions of crime, but still the sort of thing that would send his mind looking askance at Walt: the constant, barely and very poorly explained very bad tension between Walt and Skyler, the strange arrangement with their kids. I mean, I think this has been coming-Walt has been stringing along plans that work thanks to luck and audacity, but that's not a recipe for long-term success.
Posted by dansigal (Member # 12661) on :
Yeah, I think even without the G.B., I think that inscription brings it all together. Cause here's the thing, if Walt was just some guy Hank casually knew and not some his geeky chemist brother in law, Hank would have suspected him as the W.W. referred to in Gale's book immediately. He fits perfectly, same initials, genius chemist, recently came into a ton of money, and sporadic suspicious behavior. But Hank has always had a mental block there because of their relationship and history.
Seeing Walt referred to as W.W. there (and especially with the G.B.) finally busted through the mental block and allowed Hank to piece together the obvious.
What I don't completely buy is that super careful and paranoid Walt would leave any ties to Gale just lying around his house, which he knows Hank is always at.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Maybe Skyler is more of a schemer than we realize.
Maybe SHE put the book in the bathroom, knowing the link between the book and Walt's activities, for Hank to find.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You have to remember how many times Walt has been lucky over the past year. There were numerous times when he made mistakes that only worked out through the ineptitude of the other side, or sheer luck.
Plus, that's his titanic ego.
It's believable.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well Walt isn't infallible, is he? I mean it's quite possible he forgot, since in his mind the book was a loose end tied up neatly. He has forgotten important things before, such as not removing an ID from the lab equipment, the mask, that was later found and also storing his burner in the classroom in a place where it could be heard-and really, that was a DUMB place.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Why did Hank use Walt & Skyler's bathroom? Why didn't he go in the guest bathroom?
Did I miss something?
Posted by dansigal (Member # 12661) on :
Sure, anything is possible. My point is, he's made plenty of mistakes in the heat of the moment, but they've made a point of showing the book early in the season in bedroom, and now it's in a bathroom that we know he uses. This is something that's been around for months and months now, not something was simply overlooked. It just doesn't ring true at all to Walt's character that he would leave something just lying around for so long with both his and gale's initials on it, when he knows that Gale has referred to him using those initials in something that Hank has seen.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I think if you polled both cops and criminals, you would find that world absolutely stuffed to the brim with stories about how the one small, seemingly inconsequential at the time overlooked detail brought down a given criminal-that is, the longer running criminals. Eventually they forget things, or get careless or prideful or simply unlucky. Your vision of Walt as this totally rigidly disciplined criminal mastermind doesn't quite mesh with the reality. He keeps a plant used in an attempted murder of a child in his backyard. He kept his burner phone in the ceiling panels of his classroom, without turning it off, where he might be seen getting it. He didn't burn off serial numbers and names for his chem lab equipment. He kept Jesse on as a partner for months and months back in the day when Jesse was seriously committed to being an idiot. So on and so forth.
Now, Walt gets this much: he tries, he really does, to be as thorough and disciplined as you describe. But he's not (well, wasn't always) a career criminal, and doesn't always have the best of advice to follow. Hell, if he didn't as a chemist have an understanding of the ideal way to dispose of corpses and other unwanted stuff, who knows how much he would've forgotten?
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Then there's the other stuff, less likely to raise a cop's suspicions of crime, but still the sort of thing that would send his mind looking askance at Walt: the constant, barely and very poorly explained very bad tension between Walt and Skyler, the strange arrangement with their kids. I mean, I think this has been coming-Walt has been stringing along plans that work thanks to luck and audacity, but that's not a recipe for long-term success.
Did Hank drive to Tuco's house looking for Walt? I don't remember.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Hank never even knew Walt was there. They slunk off into the desert after Hank shot Tuco.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Tammy, wanted to say that's a really sneaky idea of yours. I like it, but I'm not sure Skyler even has the necessary information to put such a plan together. But then who knows? We learned a whole season break later just who was responsible for poisoning the child!
As for Tuco, if memory serves Hank was following what he thought was an unlikely lead (alone, he was semi-rogue pursuing that investigation) on Tuco himself, not making any sort of connection to Walt or even Jesse.
Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
Just having watched the first few sesason on DVD from the library, Hank was trying to track down Jesse. I think Jesse's car had a lowjack on it, so he was able to track it by GPS. He was looking for Jessie to talk to him about Walt, since Skyler had told Hank that Walt was buying dope from Jessie for his cancer.
msquared
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Rakeesh, I'd just like to see some action on Skyler's part at this point. I can't imagine that she just accepts that Walt's done. That's it? Okay, Walt, you're done with your Meth cooking, everything is happy at home now. Who acts like that after all that's happened? I know she only gave him a brief smile, but that was a big thing coming from her. I hope that it was a calm, devious, "your going down" kind of smile, as innocent as it looked.
I have to admit that Walt Jr. strolling the baby around the pool was making me nervous. I was thinking something was going to happen there, at some point. I kept waiting for a gun to go off or the baby to somehow end up in the pool.
Please let something fun/bad happen to Saul Goodman at the end. Oh, please!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
There are rumors that Saul is going to get his own spinoff show.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: There are rumors that Saul is going to get his own spinoff show.
It will be amusing, to say the least.
I miss Gale. I've got a crush on David Costabile.
<--- He sings!
[ September 05, 2012, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Tammy ]
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Hank never even knew Walt was there. They slunk off into the desert after Hank shot Tuco.
I know, but I think he was trying to find Jesse's car, because he thought Jesse would know where Walt was. It would be another way Hank would connect the dots.
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