I thought it would be cool to write down what we predict and then check it out later. The winner takes all!
Obvious spoilers.
My predictions for things to come:
Jon Snow didn't die. That's because I had predicted different things for Jon Snow. Somehow I thought that his mother is important and maybe she was a Targaryen. It is even possible that Ned Stark wasn't his father after all and his father is even more important. That would make him a good candidate for Azor Ahai. No, he can't be dead.
I think Azor Ahai candidates can be narrowed down to: Daenerys, Aegon VI, Jon Snow and Stannis. But, except for Jon Snow, that would be extremely predictable so I'm not that certain... That's why if I had to bet, that would be Jon the Bastard.
I think Robb Stark conceived a child, probably Eddard Stark II.
I think Arya Stark will kill someone important, I think it might be King Tommen Lannister/Baratheon.
Stannis will win the battle of Winterfell.
That rider on a moose that helped Bran is Benjen Stark.
Bran will control a Dragon.
The wall will go down, releasing Jon Snow from his vows and allowing him to become a king or something.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
My thoughts on the whole Jon Snow thing are that he is actually Lyanna's son, conceived with Rhaegar Targaryen. In the first book whenever he thought of Lyanna he would hear her say, "Promise me, Ned..." but we never find out what that promise is. I'm betting he promised that he would take care of her son as his own. That way Ned's honor never actually was impeached. No one could ever believe he actually fathered a bastard, so I'm betting
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
I like the idea of Jon becoming the king. I always thought it would be a nice ending. I'd also like to see Tyrion become his hand, which would be a nice circle because in the first book they meet and have that discussion on the balcony, which sets the tone for Jon's entire story.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
I find it a little odd that you two seem to be claiming credit for Jon Snow Rhaegar/Lyanna theories that have been floating around for years.
Anyways, there's a popular idea that Jon will warg his way out of that situation. Into one of the frozen corpses, or Ghost, etc. I think that's right.
I bet there won't be an Azor Ahai. I think the whole Red God thing is just a mix of newly potent magic and religious fanaticism. All the specific doctrines are just BS.
Arya will be sent after a sympathetic character, like Tyrion or Dany. Maybe the new little Targaryen, I forget his name. The one from the boat.
Stannis lost at Winterfell. It's hard to make sense of Ramsey's letter otherwise.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I find it a little odd that you two seem to be claiming credit for Jon Snow Rhaegar/Lyanna theories that have been floating around for years.
I find it very strange that you interpret what they said as claiming credit for anything.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
So I just saw that most of my post disappeared somehow. That's frustrating. I had written about twice as much more than that. Funny thing is that it actually makes sense where it cut off. Weird.
Anyways, yeah, to my credit I theorized that about Jon Snow quite a while ago without knowing that it was a popular idea. But I'll try to refrain from "taking credit", for your sake Foust.
Other thoughts I had in my previous post: I wonder if Bran could hop into one the dragons? Also, what is up with the Frankenstein thing that the guy (I forget his name) built in the basement with what seems to be Gregor's body? It just seemed a bit out of left field...
As for there not being an Azor Ahai, I think that someone will get that title (maybe Jon, maybe not), whether or not there is any real substance to it. But to be honest, while I'm fine with questioning if Melisandre's stuff bears any weight, I'm more skeptical of doubting Rhaegar and The Prince that was Promised. Not that Rhaegar necessarily knew everything or knew what he was doing, but I just don't buy that George R. R. Martin would set up this enigmatic character who seems so prescient and then say "Oh, well, he was actually completely wrong and ultimately unimportant."
Edit: Of course that makes the assumption that Azor Ahai reborn and the Prince that was Promised are the same person, but I have a hard time seeing otherwise.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:I find it a little odd that you two seem to be claiming credit for Jon Snow Rhaegar/Lyanna theories that have been floating around for years.
I find it very strange that you interpret what they said as claiming credit for anything.
I got that impression from this:
quote: I thought it would be cool to write down what we predict and then check it out later. The winner takes all!
The "winner" bit seems to make some claim.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
quote:Originally posted by Foust: Stannis lost at Winterfell. It's hard to make sense of Ramsey's letter otherwise.
My God, I completely forgot about that letter! I just thought that it 's high time for him to win something. He is like a pain in the ass for the major players since the naval battle, nothing more. I thought he should be given more, he is not half bad... Still, maybe there's more to this letter.
This Lyanna's theory seems really interesting, I completely forgot about her. I guess I wasn't paying that much attention to the first books.
I don't know if this Ahai prophecy is just the Red God's thing. Just before the old blind man from the Wall died, he was saying sth about being wrong all the way, that he assumed the prophecy refers to a male and that Daenerys is the one. So that's what I mean.
Strangelove, don't take my dragon thing! By "control" I meant "hop in" exactly.
I wonder if Tommen dies in the next book. His rule is so very shaky, new pretenders landing in Westeros and all. And he is supposed to die before Cersei.
By the way, I completely stopped liking Tyrion. He is not a good guy in any way now, I just couldn't justify his patricide, especially that his father promised to help him out of the jail. It seemed a little too much. He is obviously not at ease with it, cause he keeps speaking about being good with a crossbow, but still- what's there to like? I definitely wouldn't like to see him succeed in anything. I want him dead.
Many people like the Arya part, but I really think it's one of the worst. I have a feeling that her hatred towards all of her "prayer" people wasn't justified enough. Why would a normal person want to kill so much for so long and dedicate one's life to do it? I mean, maybe she is just evil, that's all. So I would like her to be sent to kill someone important and then get killed in the process- I like your idea about Daenerys- she seemed to be quite good in dispelling illusions and stuff. But maybe only in the series, 'cause I forgot how it went in the books.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:He is not a good guy in any way now, I just couldn't justify his patricide...
Wow, his patricide wasn't even his biggest crime in that same chapter. Are you forgetting him strangling the young girl to death?
The patricide I think was completely justified. His father arranged a gang rape of his wife and convinced him that she was a whore. That's damn near the worst thing I can imagine a father doing.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier:
quote:He is not a good guy in any way now, I just couldn't justify his patricide...
The patricide I think was completely justified. His father arranged a gang rape of his wife and convinced him that she was a whore.
+1
He not only convinced him of it, but made him watch as the castle guard quasi raped her, then made him have sex with her, and pay her for it, basically having her husband make her into a whore. I shed no tears for Tywin.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Ramsay lied in the letter. I think Stannis won. I will say that the joy of Martin screwing with us so much is that you really can't assume it's going to work out. You can't assume Jon survived, and you can't assume that Stannis won. Shit could just as easily fall apart.
But I think it'd be a bridge too far.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
Just out of curiosity, does anyone happen to remember all of the evil things Tyrion did? I haven't read all the way through the books yet so I'm only going off the first few as well as the show. Killing his father doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me, especially given his father's evil history, but I'd like to hear what else Tyrion did.
Posted by Parsimony (Member # 8140) on :
Tyrion's patricide is one of the more triumphant moments in the series.
Posted by Parsimony (Member # 8140) on :
Also, I don't know how they will handle Jon's lineage on the show, seeing as Rhaegar and Lyanna, for all intents and purposes, don't even exist.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Through Danny.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
Patricide was just the first thing that came to my mind. He killed that girl, too. I give you that- ok, that wasn't the worst thing. I just remember that I started to not like him around this chapter.
Parsimony- yeah, it felt triumphant that the most evil man died, but at the same time I felt sorry for him and for Jaimie. This gang rape somehow didn't seem so sad to me, maybe there's something wrong with me, but I wasn't convinced about it's (obvious!) monstrosity. Maybe it was the way GRRM put it, I dunno. Don't get me wrong, I think that rape should be punishable by death, nowadays.
I don't know why, but I always hoped that they would get along. There was something straightforward about Tywin, like evil was just a necessary tool for him.
I think that we already met Tywin's ex-wife, and it's one of the ladies in this brothel in Braavos. "Wherever whores go", it must be it, because Braavos is the only town mentioned that is famous for whores. It would be disappointing if we hadn't met her yet. Maybe she'll kill Tyrion.
However, Tyrion in supposed to strangle his sister (according to the prophecy Maegi gave her), so maybe he will need another reason, and that could be Cersei having something to do we his wife. She didn't the first time... Tyrion doesn't seem to commit crimes cold-blooded.
Lyrhawn, my thoughts exactly. Ramsey tried too hard to convince Jon (us) that he really won. But I think we all learned already that until you "see" the evidence (even that can be not enough, though) you can't be sure. Like the "deaths" of Catelyn, Theon, Rick, Bran... And Benjen and Jon, I guess.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by Szymon: However, Tyrion in supposed to strangle his sister (according to the prophecy Maegi gave her), so maybe he will need another reason, and that could be Cersei having something to do we his wife. She didn't the first time... Tyrion doesn't seem to commit crimes cold-blooded.
Tyrion isn't going to do this. Jaime is.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
Also,
quote:Originally posted by Szymon: This gang rape somehow didn't seem so sad to me, maybe there's something wrong with me, but I wasn't convinced about it's (obvious!) monstrosity. Maybe it was the way GRRM put it, I dunno. Don't get me wrong, I think that rape should be punishable by death, nowadays.
It's not just the fact of the rape; it's that Tywin deceitfully drove away the only woman who ever loved or who ever will love Tyrion, as a person, for who he is.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sean Monahan:
quote:Originally posted by Szymon: However, Tyrion in supposed to strangle his sister (according to the prophecy Maegi gave her), so maybe he will need another reason, and that could be Cersei having something to do we his wife. She didn't the first time... Tyrion doesn't seem to commit crimes cold-blooded.
Tyrion isn't going to do this. Jaime is.
He's certainly headed in that direction. Cersei deserves it at this point for all she's done. I think I'd like to see Jaime removed to Casterly Rock with Tommen and Myrcella to live out a quiet life raising his kids to not be vicious, avaricious douchebags. He's the only Lannister capable of that at this point, I think.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
even if he throws kids out windows....
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
But that's why he's one of the better characters of the series. He started the series as a douchey casual murderer who had no moral qualms about casually tossing a kid out the window, and a nobleman's son mind you, in addition to all the other terrible things he'd done.
But by Dance, he's transformed into an anti-hero. He feels genuinely bad for the things he's done, and he's been humbled by his new position in life. The contrast is all the more striking in Cersei's changed feelings for him when you consider they used to be the same person, and now they're like night and day.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Knight and dame. Har har.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Yep, he is one of the more intriguing characters to be sure.
Posted by dansigal (Member # 12661) on :
quote:Originally posted by Parsimony: Also, I don't know how they will handle Jon's lineage on the show, seeing as Rhaegar and Lyanna, for all intents and purposes, don't even exist.
Well, assuming its true, and that Lyanna gave birth at the Tower of Joy before she died, there is one person still alive from that battle...Howland Reed. I'm just waiting to meet him, because once we do, then I think we learn the truth of Jon's lineage.
Posted by dansigal (Member # 12661) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: But that's why he's one of the better characters of the series. He started the series as a douchey casual murderer who had no moral qualms about casually tossing a kid out the window, and a nobleman's son mind you, in addition to all the other terrible things he'd done.
But by Dance, he's transformed into an anti-hero. He feels genuinely bad for the things he's done, and he's been humbled by his new position in life. The contrast is all the more striking in Cersei's changed feelings for him when you consider they used to be the same person, and now they're like night and day.
See I never saw Jamie as a transformed character, I only think our perception of him has been transformed. Such as his actions with Bran...he did what he did not because he was cruel or took any joy in it (as so many characters in this world would) but because he saw it as an unavoidable necessity. I imagine he always regretted having to do it, we were just never in his head early on. The thing is, faced with a similar type of situation now, I think he'd do the same exact thing. Just like his taking of Riverrun, he really did not want to break his promise to Catelyn, but he was prepared to do it if he had to. Also learning his motivation behind the king killing further greatly transformed our perception of Jamie, but didn't change the character he always was.
Of course, he has done things like grown to respect Brienne and reject Cersei, which are two of the biggest reasons fans have grown to like him. But I don't think this is character evolution as much as its just a change of opinion based on life experience
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sean Monahan:
quote:Originally posted by Szymon: However, Tyrion in supposed to strangle his sister (according to the prophecy Maegi gave her), so maybe he will need another reason, and that could be Cersei having something to do we his wife. She didn't the first time... Tyrion doesn't seem to commit crimes cold-blooded.
Tyrion isn't going to do this. Jaime is.
It is going to be hard to strangle someone with just one hand...
About the whole Jon thing, I too think he is Lyanna's son. I think she had Ned promise not to tell anyone out of fear. Robert Baratheon had gone to war because he though Lyanna was raped. In book 4 or 5 some lady says that Lyanna and Rhaegar were actually in love. If Lyanna had a baby and Robert had convinced himself that Lyanna was raped, what do you think he would have done to the child?
Robert had all of the Targaeryn children killed. Lyanna probably had Ned promise her that he would take care of the child as his own.
Lyanna was described as having black hair, which Jon also has. None of the other Stark children have black hair. Granted we have no description of Wylla's appearance. We do know that Ned lied to Robert about Wylla though. Robert thought Wylla was a whore, and Ned never corrected Robert. We know from Edric Dane that Wylla was a wet nurse.
I think the evidence is there, but you never know with Martin. Until someone actually confirms it, I don't think we will.
Personally I think we will find out about Jon through one of Bran's tree whispering sessions.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geraine:
quote:Originally posted by Sean Monahan:
quote:Originally posted by Szymon: However, Tyrion in supposed to strangle his sister (according to the prophecy Maegi gave her), so maybe he will need another reason, and that could be Cersei having something to do we his wife. She didn't the first time... Tyrion doesn't seem to commit crimes cold-blooded.
Tyrion isn't going to do this. Jaime is.
It is going to be hard to strangle someone with just one hand...
Jaime has two hands. A flesh one and a gold one. Granted he can't squeeze with the gold one, but he merely needs to squeeze with one and crush with the other. It's wouldn't be hard.
I also believe Jaime won't long outlive Cersei.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by dansigal:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: But that's why he's one of the better characters of the series. He started the series as a douchey casual murderer who had no moral qualms about casually tossing a kid out the window, and a nobleman's son mind you, in addition to all the other terrible things he'd done.
But by Dance, he's transformed into an anti-hero. He feels genuinely bad for the things he's done, and he's been humbled by his new position in life. The contrast is all the more striking in Cersei's changed feelings for him when you consider they used to be the same person, and now they're like night and day.
See I never saw Jamie as a transformed character, I only think our perception of him has been transformed. Such as his actions with Bran...he did what he did not because he was cruel or took any joy in it (as so many characters in this world would) but because he saw it as an unavoidable necessity. I imagine he always regretted having to do it, we were just never in his head early on. The thing is, faced with a similar type of situation now, I think he'd do the same exact thing. Just like his taking of Riverrun, he really did not want to break his promise to Catelyn, but he was prepared to do it if he had to. Also learning his motivation behind the king killing further greatly transformed our perception of Jamie, but didn't change the character he always was.
Of course, he has done things like grown to respect Brienne and reject Cersei, which are two of the biggest reasons fans have grown to like him. But I don't think this is character evolution as much as its just a change of opinion based on life experience
I think he's changed. Granted it's different when we can see in his head, but I thought I remember him saying that he regretted tossing Bran out the window, not so much, "I regret that it had to be done" but more "I shouldn't have done it." I don't think he'd do it again. He's clearly different than he was before, and I don't think it's just perception. Maybe the change isn't as great as a lot of people think, but he's certainly different.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Originally posted by dansigal:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: But that's why he's one of the better characters of the series. He started the series as a douchey casual murderer who had no moral qualms about casually tossing a kid out the window, and a nobleman's son mind you, in addition to all the other terrible things he'd done.
But by Dance, he's transformed into an anti-hero. He feels genuinely bad for the things he's done, and he's been humbled by his new position in life. The contrast is all the more striking in Cersei's changed feelings for him when you consider they used to be the same person, and now they're like night and day.
See I never saw Jamie as a transformed character, I only think our perception of him has been transformed. Such as his actions with Bran...he did what he did not because he was cruel or took any joy in it (as so many characters in this world would) but because he saw it as an unavoidable necessity. I imagine he always regretted having to do it, we were just never in his head early on. The thing is, faced with a similar type of situation now, I think he'd do the same exact thing. Just like his taking of Riverrun, he really did not want to break his promise to Catelyn, but he was prepared to do it if he had to. Also learning his motivation behind the king killing further greatly transformed our perception of Jamie, but didn't change the character he always was.
Of course, he has done things like grown to respect Brienne and reject Cersei, which are two of the biggest reasons fans have grown to like him. But I don't think this is character evolution as much as its just a change of opinion based on life experience
I think dansigal makes some good points about Jaime. Much of our changing view of him came from learning more information about his past, not watching his personality change in the present. For those who thought they were watching the latter, I'd argue that they were just interpreting his actions in a new light.
Which isn't to say that Jaime hasn't changed at all, I think he has, just not quite to the level that it might seem he has.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
Yeah.
I think losing his hand has made Jaime less impulsive and a bit more cautious. He thinks as much himself sometimes, recalling some of his more headstrong impulses back when he knew himself to be the greatest knight in the Seven Kingdoms.
But morally, I don't think he's changed substantially, I think we've just gained more insight into his motivation.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: Yeah.
I think losing his hand has made Jaime less impulsive and a bit more cautious. He thinks as much himself sometimes, recalling some of his more headstrong impulses back when he knew himself to be the greatest knight in the Seven Kingdoms.
But morally, I don't think he's changed substantially, I think we've just gained more insight into his motivation.
I still disagree. Giving Oathbreaker to Brienne, helping Tyrion escape and for that matter, basically helping him kill their father, and his interactions with Cersei, and his remorse at what he did to Bran are all actions in the present, not redefinitions of past actions, that to me present something different.
He's basically expressed a willingness in the past to give up just about everything in his life and act without any morality to protect his relationship with Cersei.
In the last two books, he basically rejected her and committed a ton of random crimes and betrayals for the sake of doing the right thing and acting out of loyalty to other family and friends. That's a totally different Jaime. We understand the contrast better knowing more of his backstory, but he's much different.
[ June 29, 2012, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I'd say it is a combination of both of those. I know for a fact that my perception of him changed when I learned his point of view, particularly his disgust at the old king and his elevation to the Kingsguard.
But I also feel that he has evolved, and that he has changed in some major ways. I wouldn't care a bit if he had not changed, but now he is possibly my favorite character.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:But I also feel that he has evolved, and that he has changed in some major ways. I wouldn't care a bit if he had not changed, but now he is possibly my favorite character.
I feel the same way.
Frankly I'm shocked that Martin was able to pull that off. I hated him so much in the first two books.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
Yeah, Martin is pretty skilled in this. At all kinds of things, actually- killing Ned was astonishing for every one. Not all writers would have the guts to do that.
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
Does the prophecy about Cersei state that it will be her OWN younger brother who strangles her, or just A younger brother?
Because the teenager Aegon is a younger brother.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
That's another good theory that's been going around, Yozhik. The prophecy says "the valonqar", not "your valonqar".
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: Yeah.
I think losing his hand has made Jaime less impulsive and a bit more cautious. He thinks as much himself sometimes, recalling some of his more headstrong impulses back when he knew himself to be the greatest knight in the Seven Kingdoms.
But morally, I don't think he's changed substantially, I think we've just gained more insight into his motivation.
I still disagree. Giving Oathbreaker to Brienne, helping Tyrion escape and for that matter, basically helping him kill their father, and his interactions with Cersei, and his remorse at what he did to Bran are all actions in the present, not redefinitions of past actions, that to me present something different.
He's basically expressed a willingness in the past to give up just about everything in his life and act without any morality to protect his relationship with Cersei.
In the last two books, he basically rejected her and committed a ton of random crimes and betrayals for the sake of doing the right thing and acting out of loyalty to other family and friends. That's a totally different Jaime. We understand the contrast better knowing more of his backstory, but he's much different.
So, I think you're definitely part right.
I think that losing his hand made him more cautious and less impulsive, and that he fell out of love with Cersei (which may be related to the first thing).
But pretty much all of your examples of ways he changed are accounted for in those two things, aren't they? I guess falling out of love with Cersei is a change in his morality, though, so you're right that he has changed morally too.
I do think you underestimate what Jaime would have done for Tyrion even before he changed, though. There's strong indication he's always loved Tyrion, to say nothing of feeling that he owes him for what Tywin made him do.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
It SOUNDS like you think I'm totally right.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
Heh, yeah.
... It's a question of how you view his falling out of love with Cersei, I think. I hadn't thought of it as a change in morals initially, but maybe it is. It certainly changed the way he values things.
In fairness so does his gaining more caution. In a certain light, that's a moral change as well. For example: He wouldn't push Bran out a window anymore. Not because he thinks it's wrong... he's always thought it was wrong. But because he's grown less impulsive.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
I think his change may also have to do with introspection into who he is, since his self-identity may have been so tied up in his sword-hand. Not just less headstrong due to the fact that he can't win a fight now, but also, "Who am I without that?"
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
Oh, absolutely!
He's an amazing character. Top... hm, I don't know, 5 at least. I think. I love a lot of characters, though, so don't quote me on that.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
Maybe Jaime ends up with Brienne?
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by Szymon: Maybe Jaime ends up with Brienne?
Only as long as we don't hear about it from inside her head. Brienne's chapters bore me the most of anything in the books.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
quote:Originally posted by Carrie:
quote:Originally posted by Szymon: Maybe Jaime ends up with Brienne?
Only as long as we don't hear about it from inside her head. Brienne's chapters bore me the most of anything in the books.
They bore me as well, but I will say that I find something sweet in the interaction between Brienne and Jaime.
I think these two characters have experienced more character development than most of the other characters in the books. Some characters such as Cersei have been pretty static, but Brienne and (especially) Jaime have changed quite a bit.
Theon has had quite a bit as well, but most of that was forced on him.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Carrie:
quote:Originally posted by Szymon: Maybe Jaime ends up with Brienne?
Only as long as we don't hear about it from inside her head. Brienne's chapters bore me the most of anything in the books.
If I have to read one more chapter of her looking for a maid of three and ten, I'm going to burn every ASOIAF book I own.
She's a great character but man I wanted to gouge my eyes out during her chapters. She made Sansa look interesting. I shudder to think.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
Nothing came make Sansa look interesting. Nothing.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
quote:Originally posted by Szymon: Nothing came make Sansa look interesting. Nothing.
In general I think Martin completely fails at writing women. Catelyn was miserable as well. Cersei is possibly an exception, but she's only interesting in the same way watching a train wreck is interesting.
Sansa though does have one saving grace - Littlefinger. He is one of the most interesting characters to me, and one that I think is poised to make a big jump in power.
Or get eaten by a dragon. You never know with Martin.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
I liked Brienne's chapters quite a bit.
But then, there really haven't been any chapters I didn't like.
I generally think the whole "fails at writing X gender" thing is malarky. If specific characters feel off to you, okay, say so, and say why. But women are just people, and Martin writes those pretty well.
A legitimate complaint is that he doesn't write very many women that aren't terrible, but they don't seem particularly unbelievable to me. Just, not great people.
Brienne is not one of those in my opinion, though. I'm sad she didn't find her maid of three and ten, with a fair face and auburn hair.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I agree. I hear the "Martin can't write women" thing constantly, mostly from women, and I think that's way off.
Most of their complaints center around the fact that ASOIAF doesn't have any PERFECT women, but rather women who are largely victims in some way. My response is usually to ask for someone to point out the perfect man who is also victimless in the story. There aren't any.
Everyone in this story is both imperfect and victimized to a degree. Some people simply can't get past the setting; it's a gender unequal world from the start. I've met very few women who have read the series that didn't hate the women. I'll admit things get a lot more interesting once you get a few books in, so there might not be a lot going if you only read the first one, but the women are fascinating.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
Oh, one more prediction: the Hound will not fight FrankenMountain.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Foust: Oh, one more prediction: the Hound will not fight FrankenMountain.
Knowing Martin, you're probably right.
But oh boy do I still want it to happen.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I agree. I hear the "Martin can't write women" thing constantly, mostly from women, and I think that's way off.
See, again, here's an example of a claim about ASoIaF that evidently is common place but I knew nothing about other than my own opinion. I guess I'm a pretty sheltered fan.
Though I'm also going to contradict that as evidence of my point: Whenever I have heard people complain, it is always about women chapters, usually Sansa or Brienne, sometimes Catelyn and Cersei. No real complaints about Jamie, or Jon, or even Samwell for crying out loud. I'm not sure how that's not indicative of a problem. And yes, obviously there are people who don't complain or don't agree, but the trend undeniably exists.
And that's only on an external level. Internally, I personally find their chapters flat out boring, with very few exceptions. They are not dynamic characters and their internal dialogue is monotonous. I'm not really much of a literary critic so I have a hard time pointing out exactly what frustrates me so much about the writing style, but it just feels off. For me it's not that they are victims or anything like that. I completely agree that is a bogus claim. It's simply that they are not compelling characters. They don't more or change, or if they do it takes for freaking ever.
Examples: Sansa is the easiest one. She might be on the cusp of actually growing up, but compare her to nearly every other character in the book and she is frustratingly static. Her whole "What is a knight?" schtick is only interesting because of her interaction with the Hound, not because of her. She's just a foil for his much more compelling story and dialogue. They both are victims and in miserable situations, but one is interesting and one is... not. Maybe Sansa would be interesting from the Hound's perspective and not from inside her own head.
Catelyn as well is only interesting because of her interactions with Tyrion, Robb (who I'm quite sad never got any chapters), and the Tully group. She started out with her whole protective mother thing, did some crazy stuff, but also remained almost completely static. She never bonded with Tyrion, never really stopped treating Robb like her little boy king who needed his mother, etc etc. Now that she's a zombie maybe we'll see some change in character .
Brienne started out interesting... because of her interactions with Jamie. Once she went off on her search and Martin actually tried to develop her into an independent character, she became uninteresting and again, static and monotonous. Noticing a trend?
Cersei continues it, especially in terms of being static. Considering what Martin did for Jamie, I was hoping something similar would happen with Cersei. Nope. We saw from an outside perspective that she was bat crap crazy, and waddya know - when we look inside, nothing has changed. She gets put in rought situations and what happens? Nothing really. Her character remains the same. It's not the situations or settings that Martin puts them in, it is how he manages those situations from the perspective of a woman. It just doesn't work.
By contrast, Tyrion is not interesting only because of Bronn, or Tywin, or the Griffs. Jon is not interesting only because of the Night's Watch, Mance, or Yrgritte. Martin writes these interesting (male) characters in such a way that whatever their position may be, they remain dynamic and important pieces in the overall story, their internal dialogue is considerably less monotonous (goes with being dynamic and not static), and gosh darn it, they are just better written.
The exceptions would be Arya and Dany of course, but Arya is a tomboy, so maybe that has something to do with it. Though I don't know that she is much of an exception. I find her interesting, but she also has remained remarkably static in terms of character and our perception of her. Her setting has changed drastically and the world that she inhabits is now one that is very interesting, but thinking about it, I'm not sure Martin really even succeeds with her, just her setting. She does have quite a bit of agency though, so that's nice. Dany is, however, an interesting character in my opinion. She takes her situations, whatever they may be, and changes and adapts to them. Sometimes she's on top, sometimes she is a victim and is having a rough time of it, but she actually has movement as a character.
And just to say, I don't think my perspective here is colored by some sort of latent misogyny. I just don't think Martin knows what to do with women in his world. It's not the women themselves I dislike, it's the way Martin writes them. Though, and this is my last thought, I promise, maybe he is writing them exactly as he wants to, given the quasi-feudalistic setting, and his perspective is that women don't (or didn't) have agency in real life, so that's how to depict them in his world. In which case, I disagree with him, but respect his right to write frustratingly boring characters.
Sorry for the dissertation...
tldr: Martin has a hard time making the chapters of women interesting. It's not their setting that's the problem, it's not their status as victims, it's that when we get inside a woman's head from Martin's perspective, she becomes a static, monotonous character. In my opinion.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
Concerning writing about women: Sapkowski, the best known Polish fantasy writer, is pretty good about women characters. I really liked him, I liked his style and all that. Then I read an interview with him. When asked: Many people praise you for your insight in women's nature. Why do you think you're good at it? He answered: "Talent, I guess". Then I kept reading about him and his general socio-political opinions and stopped liking him as a person, while still loving his writing. I guess this can be compared to OSC's gay discourse.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
Strangelove, I completely agree with your Dany and Arya conclusion. Arya is a tomboy and even though I sincerely hate her, I have to admitt that she is interesting, at least more interesting that her lovely stupid sister. And Dany... well. Dany is Dany. I guess Martin gave a hell lot of thought to her, and plenty of time, she's kind of an axis of the whole plot. And she's got dragons, obviously.
By the way, it is so cool that she has problems controlling them. Compare it to Paolini's Inheritance. On a second thought, don't. There can be no comparison.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You're leaving out a few women. Even if you only count viewpoint characters you're leaving out Arianne, Asha and Melisandre. If you count characters who aren't viewpoint, you're still leaving out a few who spent significant time on center stage, like Margery Tyrell.
Catelyn is a bit boring because she's an archetype. She's the mothering figure, or rather, a rather traditional mothering figure that clearly juxtaposes against Cersei's mothering figure, which is no less devoted to her children, but pursues that devotion in an entirely different manner. Sansa is boring because she's quite literally the helpless maiden trapped in a tower waiting for a knight to rescue her. It's almost a joke how lost that fanciful notion is in Westeros, but it also serves as a great balancing act against a lot of other characters. But if you read beneath the surface, she actually learns quite a bit as the story goes on and doesn't leave King's Landing nearly as naive as when she entered. She's also the female character with the most growth potential. Under Littlefinger's guidance, anything could happen with her.
Cersei is fascinating to me. She's almost a man trapped in a woman's body. She goes so far as to have sex with another woman just because she wants to feel the sexual dominance that a man feels. She's also cunning, ruthless, and surprisingly devoted to her children.
Brienne was great for two whole books. I liked her in Clash and Storm, it's only when she went off in search of Sansa that she got boring, so it's not really fair to write her whole character off.
Frankly, Dany was the one I breezed through the most in the first book. I didn't find her particularly interesting until into the second book. But now I think she has a lot going for her, though her chapters in Dance got a little tedious every now and then.
I think too many people give the women short shrift because they want them all to be like Dany, riding on horseback into battle waving a sword, but the women of Westeros have to play a deeper game that's no less interesting because they aren't on the battlefield. On the contrary, there's a hell of a lot more variety in the women than in the men.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Arianne is a minor POV character (two or three chapters I think? Unless I'm fogetting some), while Asha is minor and quite manlike. Melisandre has only just gotten chapters and she also is kind of a witch. But I'll concede her - I enjoyed her chapters well enough.
Again, my issue is not with the women themselves. I think Melisandre is a fascinating character, as well as Margery (Queen of Thorns as well). I even think the characters I bashed in my post have very interesting aspects, and I agree that Brienne especially started out strong. And I certainly agree that Sansa has incredible potential, courtesy of Littlefinger. There is a lot of variety and complexity in all of their situations. I certainly don't want them to all be Dany!
My complaint is that when we get inside a woman's head, via Martin, a lot of the complexity and nuance seems to descend into either crazyness or mundanity (yeah, that's a word now). It's not the women I complain about, it's how Martin writes from their perspective. It's almost like he's constructed them as good characters, but just can't seem to pull it off from their perspective.
I actually think Sansa is a great example of this, because she had the potential to be an incredibly interesting character from early on, with her notions of chivalry coming up against reality and her being forced to grow up and see the world in a new way. But it just has not happened (for me). Martin set it up, but he didn't deliver.
Edit: To be clear, I certainly don't have enough of a problem with the way he writes women to not read the books multiple times. But I do think the criticisms are valid, at least on some level.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Some of that might be lost on me because 80% of his writing is rather dry and ponderous regardless of gender. I tend not to mind that style of writing if the characters and the plot are interesting, but I recognize that a lot of people have a problem with it (not saying you do). But I'm not sure I see that as a gender gap issue.
It's been two years since I've read them, I think I'd have to go back and specifically pay attention to the gender-specific chapters to see if that holds water, but it's not what stuck with me when I remember the novels and describe them to others.
The way you've described it, however, sounds a lot more legitimate than any complaints I've heard. I get that you can not like the writing, per se, but still appreciate the characters. Everyone I've ever heard attack the women though hasn't been nearly that nuanced. It's universal hatred.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
It didn't really stick out to me until I listened to the first book on audiotape with my wife (as an aside, it currently holds the world record for most characters voiced in a single audiobook). I'd generally thought Catelyn's and Sansa's chapters were boring, but hadn't given it much though. Perhaps it was the combination of a mans voice with Martin's writing that, but when I reread the subsequent books after, the women's chapters really started to bug me. Again, not enough to cause a serious problem, but enough for me to give it some thought.
In a somewhat related vein in an attempt to retrack the thread, what are the general thoughts about zombie Catelyn? Evidently she got Beric's gig, which is kind of a weird thing to begin with. Unless I'm again not in the loop, it doesn't seem like there's a ton to go on concerning what is actually going on there, but I'm interested in being proven wrong, or just general thoughts. Also, do we know what Brienne says to presumably prevent being strung up? "Arya" perhaps? "Sansa"?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I was a little disappointed when she rose from the dead.
I'm not even sure what they really need her for anymore. So many of the storylines are so out of whack and so many pieces are moving I can't even guess at what he plans to do with her.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
Just a few little comments...
quote:Originally posted by Dr Strangelove: Also, do we know what Brienne says to presumably prevent being strung up? "Arya" perhaps? "Sansa"?
She says "Sword."
She was told to choose "sword, or noose," and she refused to choose, so they strung her up. She shouted "sword" and they spared her. Now she's supposed to kill Jaime. We'll see how that goes.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Some of that might be lost on me because 80% of his writing is rather dry and ponderous regardless of gender. I tend not to mind that style of writing if the characters and the plot are interesting, but I recognize that a lot of people have a problem with it (not saying you do).
Wow, I don't find his writing dry or ponderous at all. What do you mean?
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I think too many people give the women short shrift because they want them all to be like Dany, riding on horseback into battle waving a sword, but the women of Westeros have to play a deeper game that's no less interesting because they aren't on the battlefield. On the contrary, there's a hell of a lot more variety in the women than in the men.
It's interesting to me that your mind went there, Lyr, because Dany never does that.
In fact, I'm pretty certain Dany has no idea how to use a sword. It's actually kind of awesome, because she's absolutely a warrior queen, but to all evidence she has no martial skill whatsoever. She's not Asha. She just has the intelligence and charisma to successfully command men into battle.
Also I agree with you that the women in Martin's books are varied and interesting. I love Brienne, even when she's POV. On my first reading I hated Sansa and was fine with Catelyn, but on subsequent readings I can't stand Catelyn and actually have a lot of sympathy for Sansa. I also found Dany sort of boring my first read through of Game, but I loved her in the subsequent books and in my subsequent readings of Game.
While I'm at it, we were talking about Jaime earlier, and how our perspectives of him have changed.
Lyr: Have you reread any of the books? I ask because like you I hated Jaime till I got into his head in Storm, but then when I reread Clash and read the scene where Catelyn interviews him, it was astonishing to see that scene through fresh eyes.
The first time I read it, I empathized with Catelyn and hated Jaime. Second time, the opposite. And I snickered at all of Jaime's quips, whereas they just made me want to strangle him the first time through.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I think too many people give the women short shrift because they want them all to be like Dany, riding on horseback into battle waving a sword, but the women of Westeros have to play a deeper game that's no less interesting because they aren't on the battlefield. On the contrary, there's a hell of a lot more variety in the women than in the men.
It's interesting to me that your mind went there, Lyr, because Dany never does that.
In fact, I'm pretty certain Dany has no idea how to use a sword. It's actually kind of awesome, because she's absolutely a warrior queen, but to all evidence she has no martial skill whatsoever. She's not Asha. She just has the intelligence and charisma to successfully command men into battle.
I don't know. She is great for a number of reasons, but she makes a lot of mistakes. She was cunning and smart when buying/stealing the army and afterwards all she did was wrong. To me she looks like a typical young ruler who wants to do too much and dies in the process. She's too amiable, too wiling to submerge herself to somebody else's will <ekhm>. She relies too much on her advisers...
She is not a good ruler.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
I didn't say she was a good ruler.
So far, she's definitely made a lot of mistakes on that front.
What she is, clearly, is a good conqueror. As I said, a warrior queen.
All while possessing zero martial skills. That's neat. I like it.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
So I found this while browsing the blog of Patrick Rothfuss (and yes, I phrased it that way because I couldn't remember how to make "Rothfuss" posessive. Three S's just doesn't feel right...).
Any bets on whether or not Martin actually finishes the series?
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
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