Does there come a point when your parents no longer think your religious or political views are 'just a phase' that you're going to grow out of?
I'm 28. I've been an atheist for about 8 years. I've been politically liberal for as long as I can remember thinking about politics. In October I'll be marrying my agnostic, politically liberal fiance. We have had long conversations about how best to raise children one day without religion.
My mother, a moderately conservative Roman Catholic, thinks it's a phase. She hasn't said this, but I'm convinced she thinks that when I have kids I'll miraculously become more conservative and embrace Jesus as my lord and savior.
While that is technically possible, I don't see it happening.
Will there ever be a point where she doesn't think it's just a phase? Or should I expect that from now on?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I think my mother has accepted my atheism. She's gone from joking that my father turned me into a heathen to asking me questions about my beliefs to mostly leaving the topic alone. Based on our discussions about other areas of my life, if it mattered to her, I'm pretty sure I'd know.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm 36 years old. So my answer is, "maybe, but not necessarily within 30-40 years."
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Her believing it is a phase is probably easier on her spiritually speaking. "My son will eventually come back" is more comfortable than "My son isn't ever coming back no matter what."
Unless she is given a vision of the future, she will probably always feel that way. Unless she becomes persuaded one day that you are in fact right.
My mom thought for several years I was on the road to atheism, and fairly recently that I was a closeted homosexual. She didn't respond too well to my registering Democrat either. We have very open communication though, so I've talked her through all those things. I think she's gotten the message. She doesn't think less of me for diverging so much from her in many things, and sometimes she's a tad condescending when she tries to arm chair psychoanalyze why I have certain beliefs, but by and large if I handle it as well as her with my own children, I'll be pleased.
edit: Oh, and no offense, but I believe your atheism *is* a phase that will end at death, if not sooner. I'm sure you feel the same way about my theism. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
For quite a long time it was common for young people to go inactive in their religions around college age and then return when they had kids. Studies show that that has become much less frequent in the last generation or so, but it's still "common wisdom" in a lot of church circles.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
My dad came around to my atheism probably when I was in college. I don't think there was a big "I accept this about my daughter" moment but I remember one day he was defending me against his family and said something along the lines of "she doesn't make decisions lightly and if you have issues with her choices, she'll probably be very happy to explain her reasons to you." He's a very privately religious person but we use to go to church together every Sunday when I was a kid (my mom and brothers stayed home) and so it was a bit of a shock when I decided to stop going in junior high and told him I didn't believe in God anymore.
My dad's brother, and one of the most vocal conservatives in our family, still says I'm going to grow out of my liberal ways when I'm an adult with a family. He also manages to say this in the most condescending manner possible, like he is talking to a 6 year old child rather than 26 year old woman. *cue my dad defending me in family fights on facebook* Thankfully, they took me off the family email list after the fifth time I went through and fact corrected some stupid chain letter. They're extended family and we never see them so its easy for them to ignore me. I don't know how I'd handle it if this were coming from a member of my immediate family.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
The truth, of course, is that it depends on your mom and your relationship to her, Javert. Some parents accept this sort of thing quickly, some never do.
My parents accept that I'm an atheist and a libertarian (or whatever the hell I am), in the sense that they don't say "it's a phase" anymore. For us, getting over that hump just took a few years, and atheist was by far the easier thing for them to accept because they'd already gone through it with my oldest sister.
But many years later, they still argue with me and express lots of confusion at how I can think what I think (and sometimes say that they think someone must have tricked me into thinking this way). I don't think that's ever going to change, no matter how many more decades we argue about it.
It's just become part of our relationship, now. It doesn't make us love each other any less, and honestly we've always argued about stuff in my family, so it's just the topics that have changed.
I think DKW has a good point, but honestly, Javert, it really just comes down to your mom. I know that's basically a cop-out answer, but it's also true.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
Apparently if you ask Mitt Romney, atheists are mature enough to accept jesus about one year after they die.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
His atheist father in law was posthumously baptized as a mormon more than one year after his death.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Ah.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
If it makes you feel better, "It's just a phase" isn't the harshest way a Catholic has ever dealt with unbelief.
Anyway, there's nothing much you can do about it--discounting childrens' beliefs is just a phase that parents go through sometimes. I'm sure they'll grow out of it. Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I was raised Christian, but loosely so and never with one branch in particular (my family -is- fond of Episcopalians, still is to this day). I only really ever got pressure to be religious when we lived in Minnesota and then there was a lot of pressure to fit in in a small town in the middle of no where which was bass ackwards to start off with anyway.
After our return to California, then my parents divorce and the collapse of my father's company all the pressure to live up to some external religious standard was gone. Both my parents live(d) with their significant other for years without marrying them.
They both kind of still subscribe to Christianity, but not even remotely whole cloth. And both fully support my lack of belief in JC.
I think BB has it right about your mom's attitude. I mean, it's really hard for someone who is steeped in the church to accept that according to their beliefs that their child is going to hell. So it likely will not change, not because she doesn't respect or accept your adult choices, but because she needs the comfort of the thought that on judgement day she will be walking streets lined with gold with her son. Or however that works.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I was a theist (most of the time) between the ages of 16-19. Thankfully it was just a phase I grew out of .
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
Whatever your convictions are, there will be days and weeks and "phases" during which you are more convinced than others about them.
Eventually there may or may not be a cataclysmic day upon which your current convictions cease to be convincing for you, and a whole new idea comes to take its place. Or maybe a new idea won't and you'll be left seeking for a while.
I think deep down you already know all of that.
The important thing is to understand that YOUR job is to raise your kids in a happy secure home, and teach them kindness. Whether you teach them "God," "no God," or "decide for yourself;" as long as you raise them to be decent, good people, then you have done what you have been charged with as a parent.
Because another thing we probably already know as well is that no matter what politco-religious milieu you decide to nurture inside your home, your children ARE going to decide for themselves, once they are no longer children.
You are just as likely to raise a staunch Republican devoutly religious person as you are to raise someone who follows your political views to the T.
So in direct answer to your question:
Mother may or may not accept that it's not just a PASSING phase.
But can you eventually accept that it IS just a phase?
YES. It is a phase. It just happens to be a phase that might very well last your entire life. Just realize and make peace with the fact that it doesn't necessarily have to.
I sincerely believe that if YOU someday decide that atheism no longer holds for you what you once felt, and no longer provides for you what you need, then you should not try to force yourself to fit into THAT mold; any more than you should try to force yourself into the mold of a devoted Catholic or Buddhist.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:You are just as likely to raise a staunch Republican devoutly religious person as you are to raise someone who follows your political views to the T.
eh?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Yeah, Sam, didn't you know that religious and political views occur randomly between generations? That's why the world is composed of an evenly distributed population of... Oh wait no that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Never mind.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
I'm 28. I've been an atheist for about 8 years. I've been politically liberal for as long as I can remember thinking about politics. In October I'll be marrying my agnostic, politically liberal fiance. We have had long conversations about how best to raise children one day without religion.
To be fair to your mother, it's always been shocking to me that people actually arrive at atheism as a worldview at ages above, say, 7-10. One of my sisters did, and I don't get it. I stopped believing in god at the same time I stopped believing in Santa Claus. By the time I was 12, I had absolutely no compunction about stating such out loud. My mother must have been disappointed, but we haven't discussed it since I can remember.
To me, becoming an atheist when your 20 is sort of like discovering you're gay at 40. I just think, how is it even possible that this was not resolved earlier?
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
I can't speak for Javert, but I'm only twenty-three and it was only about two years ago that I finally came to the absolute recognition that its all hogwash. I was raised without religion almost entirely, being left to my own devices saved me from being indoctrinated into mysticism, but that didn't make me an atheist. When I was a teenager I started going to a born again church with some friends because I was a teenager and people in Arizona are christian, so I did what appeared to be normal. First hand experience helped me realize that people like to use magic to excuse themselves for anything they feel like no matter how petty or cruel. So for a while after that I was basically agnostic because I simply did not care about my lack of belief on the unprovable or anyone else following whatever old book, it held no importance to me.
My atheism is the result of seeing too much wrong done in the name of ethereal rules and masters, I know I can't right the wrongs or even stop them from happening but the difference now is that I care. Also the willingness to designate yourself as a member of an untrusted minority in America can be something of a hurdle depending on what part of the country you grew up and live in.
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Yeah, Sam, didn't you know that religious and political views occur randomly between generations? That's why the world is composed of an evenly distributed population of... Oh wait no that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Never mind.
So, the OP should, by all rights, be a Catholic to the exact degree as his mother? I mean, for the OP to actually be an atheist would be completely random, which is the stupidest thing you've ever heard of.
So which is it? is the OP obligated to hold steadfast to the beliefs of his parents? Or are the OP's future children free to choose for themselves, just as the OP is free to choose?
You can't have it both ways Orincoro. I know that no one lets you know that around here, but it's true. You really can't just throw vitriol in both directions and hope people cower instead of answer.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
*shrug* While as usual his reaction was (in my opinion) too hostile, your original point as expressed was pretty silly: that one's children are equally likely to be of any belief system at all as to share many similarities with their parents. I mean, look around-not just at your friends and peers, but everyone you know. How many of them are closely in line with their parents religion and politics versus doing a 180 degree shift?
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
And while I'm at it, that type of caustic attitude is precisely why I rarely take this dump seriously anymore. On the rare occasion that I pop in to see the inevitable rehashing of the same threads that have been whimpered about for a decade, I just toss in a few flippant silly posts for fun. Because lo and behold, any time ANYONE bothers to take something seriously and try to give an actual opinion, they forget that it is immediately open to a response that amounts to little more than the repulsive and consistently present game of "I'm smarter than you" that takes place here. Almost everyone ignores the majority of the substance of any post, and seeks instead to display their own mediocre grasp of rote argumentative logic.
Repugnant.
So, let me rephrase MY initial post:
To the OP: Your mom may or may not accept you. Learn from that fact, remember how you feel, and use that as a way to accept your future children; whatever they choose to believe (because they very well MAY choose to believe something different than their parents, just as you have).
To everyone else: Blah blah blah I'm a idiot blah blah blah straw man ad hominem blah blah blah obligatory use of the phrase "thinly veiled" (which by the way was used by OSC in one of his introductions. Yes we all know that. No, none of you are clever for using it) blah blah blah gay marriage blah blah blah conservative blah blah blah.
There you go. Flame away.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
By all means, odouls, heap scorn on the forum because it's so self-involved with how superior and smart is, but when you do, make sure you make it clear just how superior and smart you are, how above it all you are, how little it matters and how stupid anyone who criticizes your style is for caring.
I mean, hey, that sort of thing isn't a steaming pile of cow puckey or anything!
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: *shrug* While as usual his reaction was (in my opinion) too hostile, your original point as expressed was pretty silly: that one's children are equally likely to be of any belief system at all as to share many similarities with their parents. I mean, look around-not just at your friends and peers, but everyone you know. How many of them are closely in line with their parents religion and politics versus doing a 180 degree shift?
I'm probably a bad example. My family personally is pretty muddled. Mom raised us mostly catholic-ish, dad raised us entirely mormon, and of the three children, each of the three have VASTLY different political and religious views. Different from our parents and different from each other.
As for everyone I know, I can only speak for the cases in which i know both the parents' and children's views. And in those cases (and I answer this honestly) most of the time there are pretty big differences. Especially on the Catholic side. There are a few of the Mormon families I know which stick together through generations, but by and large the younger generation seeks and finds on its own. This might be a function of changing times, as it is far more socially acceptable to differ from your parent's beliefs now than it has ever been in history (in the United States, that is. Obviously some parts of the world this is still not the case).
The point is that the OP is concerned about whether or not his mother will ever accept his choice. I hope the answer is yes, but it might be no. And I wanted to illuminate for that person that someday he may find himself in his mother's exact position. And I hope that he'll treat his children the way he wishes he was being treated right now. And I don't think you would contend that THAT is silly.
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: By all means, odouls, heap scorn on the forum because it's so self-involved with how superior and smart is, but when you do, make sure you make it clear just how superior and smart you are, how above it all you are, how little it matters and how stupid anyone who criticizes your style is for caring.
I mean, hey, that sort of thing isn't a steaming pile of cow puckey or anything!
This forum has devolved into a pathetic pool of not just muckraking, but muck-hurling.
It definitely does NOT matter, as most of the opinions I've seen put forth here lately (certainly in the last year or so) aren't opinons at all, but caustic criticisms adorned with a display case of the biggest words Roget's can provide.
If you like it, participate. Most of the time, I don't like it, and choose not to participate. But this OP had a good question I felt like answering.
And bear in mind that I never said anyone was stupid for caring. The only person who used that word was Orincoro.
Even Sam's post of "eh?" was infinitely more well thought out and in spite of being monosyllabic, it ACTUALLY made me re-read and rethink MY post to make sure it conveyed what I thought. As opposed to Orincoro's reply of "stupidest thing I've ever heard" which had a decidedly different effect.
But regardless, I owe you a nickel because cow puckey is a good phrase. I intend to steal it shamelessly and use it as my own.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Hey, I'm right there with you on Orincoro's tendency to overreact and overapply condescension. I've said as much to him directly. He seems to be fine with it, so *shrug*.
Anyway, as to your not having said something...c'mon. You don't expect to be taken seriously when you say you didn't *say* anyone or anythin was stupid when it was positively dripping from your post, do you? For example: I didn't *say* you were being hypocritical in your irritation with HR, did I? Of course not. But clearly I think so, and intended to communicate that.
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Hey, I'm right there with you on Orincoro's tendency to overreact and overapply condescension. I've said as much to him directly. He seems to be fine with it, so *shrug*.
Anyway, as to your not having said something...c'mon. You don't expect to be taken seriously when you say you didn't *say* anyone or anythin was stupid when it was positively dripping from your post, do you? For example: I didn't *say* you were being hypocritical in your irritation with HR, did I? Of course not. But clearly I think so, and intended to communicate that.
Point taken. I did not, and I do not mean to give the impression that I think anyone is "stupid" for the way they choose to treat each other here.
Thinking someone is acting like a jerk, is not the same as thinking someone is unintelligent. If i communicated the latter in conjunction with the former, then I apologize. Because I DO NOT feel like anyone here is particularly stupid. I DO think that most people here go out of their way to be overly critical, unnecessarily harsh, and needlessly esoteric in their posting.
i.e. acting like jerks.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
I'm 28. I've been an atheist for about 8 years. I've been politically liberal for as long as I can remember thinking about politics. In October I'll be marrying my agnostic, politically liberal fiance. We have had long conversations about how best to raise children one day without religion.
To be fair to your mother, it's always been shocking to me that people actually arrive at atheism as a worldview at ages above, say, 7-10. One of my sisters did, and I don't get it. I stopped believing in god at the same time I stopped believing in Santa Claus. By the time I was 12, I had absolutely no compunction about stating such out loud. My mother must have been disappointed, but we haven't discussed it since I can remember.
To me, becoming an atheist when your 20 is sort of like discovering you're gay at 40. I just think, how is it even possible that this was not resolved earlier?
Not all of us have been blessed with your superior brain. We have to muddle through with the tools at our disposal, as sub par as they may be.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
When I was 10 I was far more concerned about getting new action figures and playing hide and go seek than I was about whether any particular religion was true.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Instead, I'm somewhat shocked enough people arrived at atheism in the past to get the ball rolling. Not that I think atheism is an absurd proposition-far from it-but rather that it's not very often individuals go so completely against the widespread (overwhelming, really) cultural grain and say, "This is nonsense," well enough to persuade others to do the same. Usually that sort of thing requires violence, whereas this has gradually picked up steam even in the face of violence.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by odouls268:
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Yeah, Sam, didn't you know that religious and political views occur randomly between generations? That's why the world is composed of an evenly distributed population of... Oh wait no that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Never mind.
So, the OP should, by all rights, be a Catholic to the exact degree as his mother? I mean, for the OP to actually be an atheist would be completely random, which is the stupidest thing you've ever heard of.
So which is it? is the OP obligated to hold steadfast to the beliefs of his parents? Or are the OP's future children free to choose for themselves, just as the OP is free to choose?
You can't have it both ways Orincoro. I know that no one lets you know that around here, but it's true. You really can't just throw vitriol in both directions and hope people cower instead of answer.
I don't need it both ways. Statistically, the chances of him being a Catholic to a degree similar to his own mother are significant. That's why populations continue on in the same religious traditions they have maintained over time. They change slowly, generation to generation. The idea, that you put forth, that the chances are the same of him being a Catholic or an atheist, that it is totally random, is beyond stupid. It is not totally random. It is of course entirely *possible* that he become an athiest, particularly in our egalitarian and relatively enlightened society. But it is not random, and the chances are not equal. Your contention is laughable.
As for your other comments about me personally- are you bothered that no one challenges me (which isn't true, in actual fact), or that I am not particularly insecure about being challenged? Because this reads like jealousy to me. Don't be jealous of me. There's no point.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: When I was 10 I was far more concerned about getting new action figures and playing hide and go seek than I was about whether any particular religion was true.
Well, it's not far from my point. I never arrived at atheism as a declaration or a decision of any kind that I can remember. I remember the time coming when I was self-sufficient enough to announce it without being brow-beaten. But, in the way that children stop believing in Santa Claus, by the time I realized I was an atheist, it was more about the fact that I had realized that there was a way of expressing (and that it was possible to announce) something I had known for a long time. So becoming an atheist, for me, was just putting a label on what I had felt was true. I do not readily recall feeling differently.
quote:Originally posted by Strider: Not all of us have been blessed with your superior brain. We have to muddle through with the tools at our disposal, as sub par as they may be.
While my mind may in fact be superior, I concede, I think it's more likely that my environment was particularly nurturing of independent thinking. Now of course, my superior mind allowed me to get through these formative years without latching onto some comforting belief system that would later cripple my ability to self-actualize, so perhaps you're right after all. We may never know.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Apparently if you ask Mitt Romney, atheists are mature enough to accept jesus about one year after they die.
Do you want to have a discussion about real doctrine of posthumous proxy baptisms performed by Mormons (from a Mormon perspective)? There's been a lot of misunderstanding about the practice, and I'm happy to clear it up from a doctrinal perspective.
According to Ann Romney's wikipedia page, her father was against organized religion-- it does not say "atheist." Do you have other information, AH?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Does there come a point when your parents no longer think your religious or political views are 'just a phase' that you're going to grow out of?
I'm not sure you recognize the inherent irony in this question.
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Don't be jealous of me. There's no point.
I couldn't agree with you more.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:Apparently if you ask Mitt Romney, atheists are mature enough to accept jesus about one year after they die.
Do you want to have a discussion about real doctrine of posthumous proxy baptisms performed by Mormons (from a Mormon perspective)? There's been a lot of misunderstanding about the practice, and I'm happy to clear it up from a doctrinal perspective.
According to Ann Romney's wikipedia page, her father was against organized religion-- it does not say "atheist." Do you have other information, AH?
Every piece of news refers to him as an atheist, and no one has refuted it. Also I pulled this from Daily Mail.
quote: Ann's brother Roderick is quoted as saying that their father 'considered people who were religious to be weak in the knees'.
Doesn't really sound like a spiritual person either.
Posted by Marie (Member # 12686) on :
To answer the original question, I personally think that for parents, it's all about how orthodox they are or how much they associate their identity with their religion.
My mom was raised Catholic. Although we weren't raised to be very religious, she doesn't seem to want to accept that my brother and me really don't believe in God anymore.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I imagine, Javert, that your mom is probably pretty disappointed that you didn't stay Catholic. I assume she hoped you would if she raised you that way. Her religious beliefs are dear enough to her that she would see them as having value for her kids as well.
But if you know her well enough to be pretty sure she thinks it's still a phase you're going through, why are you asking Hatrack what we think she'll do?
I hope my kids will carry on the religious beliefs my wife and I have tried to teach them in our home. I consider those beliefs to be some of the most valuable things I can give my kids and I definitely think they are worth carrying on. If one or more of our children chooses not to, well, it's important to remember that that's their choice. Which isn't to say I wouldn't be disappointed. I would be, and I'd have to come to terms with the path they've chosen for themselves. Certainly I'd hope they would eventually return to what I've taught them and I would keep that conversation open. I might think differently if I weren't a parent, but as a parent I can see how hard it will be for me to accept when my kids inevitably reject one thing or another of the things I feel are valuable to them. The kids seem to do it so cavalierly sometimes, and wonder why their parents aren't so quick to be OK with it. Answer: parents love their kids immensely, and dote on them, and see themselves in them, and that's a very big weakness of theirs. When a kid seems to reject something the parents have been trying to give them, it hurts, and it's hard for it not to hurt quite a bit.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
afr is spot on, although I wonder if I will feel that way with my children when it comes to religion, as I don't have one. I imagine if they grew up to be staunch religious people it would hurt me deeply as I will be encouraging them to seek their own answers, find their own truths and not to accept any one belief as the only truth.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I imagine if they grew up to be staunch religious people it would hurt me deeply as I will be encouraging them to seek their own answers, find their own truths and not to accept any one belief as the only truth.
As a staunchly religious person, I'll point out that from my point of view, I have "sought my own answers". I'm not really sure what 'find their own truths' means, so I can't speak to that...
Posted by I Used to Be a Drummer (Member # 12787) on :
quote:Originally posted by odouls268: My family personally is pretty muddled. Mom raised us mostly catholic-ish, dad raised us entirely mormon, and of the three children...
Hush Ender.
Did anyone else catch that?
Posted by I Used to Be a Drummer (Member # 12787) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Statistically, the chances of him being a Catholic to a degree similar to his own mother are significant. That's why populations continue on in the same religious traditions they have maintained over time....It is of course entirely *possible* that he become an athiest, particularly in our egalitarian and relatively enlightened society. But it is not random....
I might say that the environment that the child is raised in, and not just home environment either, makes a big difference. Someone raised atheist in Westboro, Kansas is more likely to become Christian than if they were raised by the same parents in Palo Alto, CA.
And Orin, do you really talk to people IRL this way? Saying your brain is superior? Regularly? You know, I went through a phase like that. I grew out of it, though. At age 15.
You'd do well to start focusing more on virtues like compassion, humility, and simplicity. Not because they are godly, or whatever. Just because you'll be more content.
And I'm not saying that because we disagree on anything, religion-wise. I think religion is a big waste of money/time/energy, to the exact degree that it holds on to beliefs that it can't prove. Extremists are much bigger wasters of time/money/energy than moderates. That includes extremist atheists, too. Some of the more extremist skeptics seem to waste an inordinate amount of time trying to attack people personally.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
Well, this post took an interesting turn in my absence.
Rabbit:
quote:I'm not sure you recognize the inherent irony in this question.
I'm certain that I don't. Please explain.
Orincoro:
quote:To me, becoming an atheist when your 20 is sort of like discovering you're gay at 40. I just think, how is it even possible that this was not resolved earlier?
I imagine it's a bit different, as your sexuality is something that is going to impact you more often than your religious beliefs. At least in my case, anyway.
I just never gave it much thought. I compartmentalized. When I finally decided to stop compartmentalizing and analyze my religious beliefs like I analyze all my other beliefs, I became (over a period of time) an atheist. And that didn't happen until around twenty.
Cheers that it happened sooner for you, though.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Drummer: Did you go through a phase when you understood irony?
quote: irony 2 |ˈīərnē| adjective of or like iron : an irony gray color.
also:
quote: irony 1 |ˈīrənē; ˈiərnē| noun ( pl. -nies) the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect : “Don't go overboard with the gratitude,” he rejoined with heavy irony. See note at wit .
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
quote:Originally posted by I Used to Be a Drummer:
quote:Originally posted by odouls268: My family personally is pretty muddled. Mom raised us mostly catholic-ish, dad raised us entirely mormon, and of the three children...
Hush Ender.
Did anyone else catch that?
Don't know you, but I think I like ya already Posted by I Used to Be a Drummer (Member # 12787) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Drummer: Did you go through a phase when you understood irony?
quote: irony 2 |ˈīərnē| adjective of or like iron : an irony gray color.
also:
quote: irony 1 |ˈīrənē; ˈiərnē| noun ( pl. -nies) the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect : “Don't go overboard with the gratitude,” he rejoined with heavy irony. See note at wit .
OK. I admit I don't have enough psychic ability to see the wry grin on your face as you typed that post. I apologize.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I am currently dealing with something similar to what you describe, from your parent's perspective, where a loved one has decided that they no longer believe. In my situation, I don't think it's "just a phase", but I have hope that this change of heart and mind is not permanent. It's hard to imagine them changing their mind on that, but they already made one seemingly impossible one 180-degree turnabout, so it happening again is certainly within the realm of possibility.
Because I love them, (and assuming that my beliefs don't significantly change), I'll never stop hoping that someday they'll change their mind and have a desire to come back to the fold.
I think that it's important that that love not be contingent upon that hope. I hope because I love them. I'd better not love them only because I still have hope.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by I Used to Be a Drummer: OK. I admit I don't have enough psychic ability to see the wry grin on your face as you typed that post. I apologize.
No, it was my fault. See, normally when I respond to someone's sarcastic comment about how much of a mental heavyweight I am by acknowledging that I am, in fact, prone to forgetting that others are not as brilliant as me, and that this may be the underlying cause of the problem, I end the post with :The above is an example of IRONY:
I'm sorry that this time I forgot to do that, and that's why you got confused. Because normal people can't tell when someone is being serious about their having superior brains. And I forgot that normal people, like you, can't do that.
:The above has been an example of further IRONY:
Posted by I Used to Be a Drummer (Member # 12787) on :
Don't misunderstand, I GET the frustration of not being able to use facial expressions, body language, and tone of voice to get my point across. For that matter, I think we should start taping ourselves reading our posts aloud, post them to youtube, and then link to them. It certainly would clear up a lot of misunderstandings.
But, for the record, I think I'm probably not the only person who misunderstood your tone. Your posts contain very little of the funny most of the time. About the most you achieve is bitter, biting sarcasm. But hey, I haven't read every post you've ever made here. Maybe you have a previous history of a lighter, more ironic tone that I just haven't run across.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Oh dear God. Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
Hahaha.
I actually paused my podcast expecting that to be, in fact, a video of you responding.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
I think this guy knows how you feel.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: afr is spot on, although I wonder if I will feel that way with my children when it comes to religion, as I don't have one. I imagine if they grew up to be staunch religious people it would hurt me deeply as I will be encouraging them to seek their own answers, find their own truths and not to accept any one belief as the only truth.
I would think that any parent who has invested time and care in the upbringing of their kids would be hurt and disappointed if their kids chose a path that seemed to leave behind what they had been taught. That's certainly not limited to staunchly religious homes or religious teaching period. Like it or not, we are practically all of us busy directing how we hope our kids will conduct their lives.
I wanted to echo Porter, though: by no means is my love for my kids dependent on such choices--and that explains the hopes I will always have for them.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:I'm certain that I don't. Please explain.
You asked,
quote:Does there come a point when your parents no longer think your religious or political views are 'just a phase' that you're going to grow out of?
What's the difference between this and you expecting/hoping that your mother will eventually get over wanting you to accept Jesus?
Look at the situation from her point. She believes that if you don't eventually accept Jesus, you will suffer eternal torment. She's your Mom so I presume that if she believes that you will suffer eternal torment it would cause her a great deal of despair. Her options are either despair, continue believing/hoping you will ultimately accept Jesus, stop believing that you must accept Jesus to avoid eternal condemnation, or cease to care about whether you suffer.
Unless you are hoping your Mom will eventually stop caring about you or that she will sink into a state of permanent dispair, you question is no different from asking whether your Mother's belief in the necessity of accepting Jesus is just a phase she will eventually out grow.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: What's the difference between this and you expecting/hoping that your mother will eventually get over wanting you to accept Jesus?
I think the difference is the 'just a phase' mentality.
I'm not objecting, necessarily, to her desire to have me re-convert to Catholicism. I'm objecting to the mindset that I'm still a child following a fad, and that I haven't given my position much thought, and will 'go back to normal' once I do.
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