Every time I come to the states to visit my parents, the culture shock is fresh and new again.
This trip, I'm getting annoyed with Starbucks. I have a name that is nit difficult to pronounce, but is whatever reason, difficult to hear and hard for a lot of people to spell. Every visit to Starbucks or any other chain is the same routine. A chatty barista asks my name, and I have to repeat it 3 times, and spell it. Then they have to use it. Why? I'm not your friend. I'm paying too much already for a cup of coffee to feel friendly towards you and want to be buddies. I like being called "sir" and I like not having people know my name and every little thing about me.
Now I understand this is a cultural thing. Czechs find it rude to address a stranger by his first name, and so it isn't done. and even when it is done, first names are always generic differentiators, and last names are often used to distinguish individuals. I like that. I feel like walking into Starbucks and saying, "you can call me Mr so-and-so".
In this age of layoffs and political tension, I think a little formality would be nice, even in California. Pekoe aren't feeling they get any respect, and I think this might help. Just a thought. I don't personally want to be on a first name basis with my barrista.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
Why not make up a name?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
So tell them your name is "Mr. Lastname"
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
Maybe they're buddying up to you so they can have a Czech mate.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
I'm sorry.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:So tell them your name is "Mr. Lastname"
Yeah, but then it seems like HE'S being rude by being difficult.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I don't think most baristas would think someone who said "just call me Mr. foo" with a smile was rude, just old fashioned.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I've tried the fake name before. Not even kidding, the girl didn't believe me. She said I didn't look like a John. And then if you don't have any cash, they can see your name on your debit card.
As for "call me Mr." I don't even want to have to go there. The name shtick is not necessary and I find it to be phony. Having to distinguish myself as "traditional" and explain myself for refusing to give a name is too much bother. I just don't like the trend.
I think the next time, I'll try just saying: "you don't need my name for that coffee," with a kurt smile and see how that goes.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Who is Kurt, and how does he smile?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
The names really do help when there's high throughput.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Huh. I don't think I've ever had that happen to me at Starbucks, even what the barista is making special effort to be friendly. (I have experience in NY and Florida, dunno about California).
Posted by LargeTuna (Member # 10512) on :
I think the best response is something like "I go by J-Dawg"
Or insert any other ridiculous nickname that could very well be accurate, so the barista isn't prone to question.
Plus, for an added bonus, people might start calling you J-Dawg!
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
My name is fairly common, but there are several accepted spellings and mine's pretty rare. In situations like you describe, I'm often asked how to spell it. Of course it doesn't matter, if all you're gonna do is call me when my drink is ready, and usually just say "however you want". I finally just started using my daughter's name, which is easy to hear and spell.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I help out in my bookstore's coffee shop and the name-thing is partly for friendly reasons, but mostly to make sure that everyone gets their medium lattes in the right order.
Most of my coffee orders come back with the name "Shannon" on them. But most people will hear the slight difference and usually ask for a spelling. That's why I usually just give a fake name like "Suzie." I do the same thing when I put my name down for a table at a restaurant.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I have an Irish buddy in Prague who makes restaurant reservations every few days because his wife is a restaurant reviewer. His name is Rory. Try and get a Czech to say that name or understand it. He tells them his name is Steve.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:Getting the Lattes in the right order
Oh, yeah, the few times I've been asked for my name it's obviously for that reason. Are you (Orincoro) sure that's not their motivation?
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
I go by a nickname and no one has ever questioned me when I pay with a card (almost always) and it has a different name on it then what I gave.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
quote:Getting the Lattes in the right order
Oh, yeah, the few times I've been asked for my name it's obviously for that reason. Are you (Orincoro) sure that's not their motivation?
Today I was the only person in the line. I would understand it in a busy place. That wasn't the case here- and since they ask often in this area, I assume it's the pet peeve of some regional manager. It is annoying.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
Depending on my general frustration level for the day, there are times when I answer "How do you pronounce your last name?" with a flat "You don't." Because they never, ever get it right, and it doesn't actually make me feel like I'm getting better service when I have to listen to someone mispronounce it ten times in a row.
Just call me by my first name. It's okay. Everyone does. I introduce myself without a last name for a reason.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
quote:Originally posted by ambyr: Depending on my general frustration level for the day, there are times when I answer "How do you pronounce your last name?" with a flat "You don't." Because they never, ever get it right, and it doesn't actually make me feel like I'm getting better service when I have to listen to someone mispronounce it ten times in a row.
That's a little rude IMO. They're probably just asking out of personal curiosity, not to provide better service. Does it really take that much effort to say it a couple times? And if they don't get it after that just say "nevermind."
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
quote: I have an Irish buddy in Prague who makes restaurant reservations every few days because his wife is a restaurant reviewer. His name is Rory. Try and get a Czech to say that name or understand it. He tells them his name is Steve.
I have a name that's really common in Spain (in fact, they think they invented it) but the way I pronounce it is slightly different - and no matter what I do, or how hard I try to say it the Spanish way, in every Starbucks I've even been to they just repeat 'Alba, right?' until I give up and give them a nickname.
So now the nickname comes first.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
quote:Getting the Lattes in the right order
Oh, yeah, the few times I've been asked for my name it's obviously for that reason. Are you (Orincoro) sure that's not their motivation?
Today I was the only person in the line. I would understand it in a busy place. That wasn't the case here- and since they ask often in this area, I assume it's the pet peeve of some regional manager. It is annoying.
You never know when a group of 6 people will walk in at once. Then if they don't have your name, one of the later group takes your latte by accident, then you're pissed off, and the employee learns to always get a name, because then the problem doesn't come up.
And also at Starbucks in particular, they really harp on having employees follow procedure every time for everything because uniformity of experience is at the heart of their business model.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I understand. The experience is universally phony. I would go to other establishments (and do when I can) if they were convenient or of the same quality (usually, they are not in my immediate area).
Ultimately it just grates on me that a stranger is taking liberties with my first name, when I have not given permission. That also means I've lived too much of my life out of California at this point to feel like a native.
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
I get annoyed by being called "honey" at the drive-through at McDonald's. I consider honey a pet name, or a love name, not something that I would call a random stranger if I were working drive-through (and I have in the past). It's too personal.
I process obits at work and now one of the funeral directors has called me "dear." Also not appropriate. Maybe I'm too sensitive, but I have to agree with a co-worker who thought it was rather condescending.
But I don't know how to deal with it other than write up a blog post. I can't afford to offend the funeral director, whose company spends a bunch of money on obits at the newspaper where I work (yes, I realize they recoup that from the families). And it's pointless to try to educate the drive-through people because they really just want you to move on and not chat and they would just go back to calling everyone honey anyway.
So, my blog is my rant forum for times like this.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Amen CaySedai!! You are NOT too sensitive. This is just plain rude.
I was recently on an airplane where the stewardess (pardon me "flight attendant") kept calling me "sweetie". I want to say, "I'm not your sweetie, show a little respect". I should have. Next time I will.
I think Orin is being ridiculous. In American culture, People of equal status, call each other by their first names. Using someones first name in America does not suggest you are best friends. I know it isn't the same in many other cultures, but culture isn't right or wrong it just is. Get over it.
But calling someone by pet names, like "honey", "dear" or "sweetie", is just not something you do to people who are neither your lover nor a child. Its insulting.
[ October 11, 2011, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
No Rabbit, MY pet peeves are normal, YOURS are ridiculous.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
yeah, it can be annoying, but at the same time people really do like it. It makes them feel secure, which will make them return to your restaraunt. Some choose to welcome you when you enter their establishment by saying something like "Welcome to XXX!!" while others use the name thing. Personally, I think it's all retarded, but people like attention, and anyone who talks to them and gives them the attention they secretly desire is going to be the place they return to.
This kind of behavior has been shown to work, which is why they do it. People are statistically more likely to return to a place that they enjoyed or that made them feel safe and personal over a place that doesn't. Now, for some people, the minority in this situation, this will not be the case, and they will be drawn away from the establishment, but that's the minority. Studies have shown that using an individual's first name evokes a sense of friendship, personal belonging, and happiness, which is why more and more restaraunts and shops are starting to use them. It's the same reason the employees' nametags say things like "Hello, my name is Jane" or simply "Jane". We feel closer to people whose names we know, and vise versa.
And yes, I think it's definitely a cultural thing, but I'd expect it to carry over to other nations in the coming decades, too. These restaraunts are corporations, not limited by oceans or borders, and those rules they have are universal for their company. You might not like the first name thing that Starbucks does, but given a few dozen years, you might find them doing it in other parts of the world.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:Originally posted by jebus202: No Rabbit, MY pet peeves are normal, YOURS are ridiculous.
Lol. This, kinda. I know people who call everyone honey. I DO think it's kinda weird, but I know that it's not meant to signify closeness or anything - they just call everyone honey.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by jebus202: No Rabbit, MY pet peeves are normal, YOURS are ridiculous.
Orin's complaint is ridiculous because he is applying Czech cultural norms in California. It's ridiculous to do that, just like it would be ridiculous to get put off when people in Berlin or Prague introduce themselves as "Lastname".
Maybe calling complete strangers "sweetie" is considered polite and respectful somewhere. But I wasn't in that "somewhere". I was on a plane traveling between Chicago and Seattle.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
You are the American (I believe), so I will take for granted your opinion on what are and what are not the cultural norms in your country, but the US is the only place where I have experienced being called "sweetie" or "honey" by strangers, so I have to think it's a least more common place than you're allowing.
I'm with Orincoro on the first names things at Starbucks and similar large franchises. Not because I want to be called by my last name - I don't - but because the friendliness is clearly a false nicety and just a corporate conception of what the consumer "wants". They don't know me, and the only reason they're smiling is because they will be fired if they don't.
Just give me my order number on my receipt and we can all move along much faster.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Isn't the first name thing an American thing too? I never have people use my name at Tim Hortons and I can't remember the last time someone used my first name in general.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:I never have people use my name at Tim Hortons and I can't remember the last time someone used my first name in general
I think you should, like, make some friends.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Isn't the first name thing an American thing too? I never have people use my name at Tim Hortons and I can't remember the last time someone used my first name in general.
Don't you mean Mr. Hortons?
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I dislike the first name thing but not for any of the stated reasons. My name is Micheal, I go by Mike. The next time you are in a large crowd, shout out loudly "Hey Mike!" and see how many people turn around. Likely more then three. Whenever possible (when she is with me) we use my wife's name for reservations, etc. In high school I was known exclusively by my last name as there were already three Mike/Micheals in my class (of fifty).
When it comes to Starbucks, I just see it as an opportunity to have some fun. Who shall I be today? Thropmortin? Or Boris (with thick fake Russian accent) or Colin (with heavy Irish) or Nigel Gorden Hornbody the 3rd (with lots of throat clearing and "oh yes").
Bottom line, if you don't wanna give your name, then don't. They just need something to call out so you know your coffee is ready. Try "Megatron" or "Darth Vader" or "Bond, James Bond".
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I don't mind being called "hon" by a stranger. "Sweeetie" would be a little harder to swallow, unless the speaker was grandma-age and had the appropriate sassy personality. Some college kid working behind the counter of a chain restaurant doesn't have the seasoning to assume instant familiarity like that. We notice the difference.
I have little love for corporate-inspired friendly traditions. At the haircutting place I go to, they cater specifically to men and the stylists have to greet me by introducing themselves and shaking my hand, as if we were walking into some good-old-boys boardroom meeting. Very fake. I have to restrain myself from rolling my eyes. They do have TVs all over the place with sports going, and in that sense they nailed it.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by jebus202: I think you should, like, make some friends.
Edit to add:
quote:Canadians are somewhat more formal than Americans with regard to names and titles. Use last names and appropriate titles until invited by your Canadian hosts or colleagues to use their first names. First names are normally used only by close friends and family. Western Canadians may use first names more frequently than other Canadians.
[ October 11, 2011, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Mucus ]
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I've never been to a Starbucks, but most places that need a name for a pick-up just say: "can I have a name for this order?" at which point I give them my last name. Sometimes I get some funny looks (since my last name is pronounced 'war') but I've never had anyone try to force a first name out of me. Does this actually happen at Starbucks?
I'll admit to being annoyed by any pet names ('dear', 'hon', 'sweetie', 'son', etc...) as well people who read my name off my credit card. Part of it is certainly an implied level of intimacy with someone I've never met before in my life and will probably never see again. I think it's in the same vein with my dislike of people who hear my name ('Andrew') and immediately nickname me ("Good to meet you Andy"). I find it rude and overly forward beside which I don't go by a nickname anyway. I blame it on an over-developed desire to be chummy upon first greeting. A desire I don't share, I consider it a strength, not a flaw, that it takes me a while to make friends.
Hobbes Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
We should all start using our Hatrack names when we place orders.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by jebus202: No Rabbit, MY pet peeves are normal, YOURS are ridiculous.
Much as it pains me to say this, I agree with jebus.
Personally, I hardly notice the first name thing -- but I've lived most of my adult life in California. And I hate the hon/honey/sweetie/sweetheart/sugar thing from people I have just met.
But really, each is just as valid or invalid a pet peeve as the other.
quote:Originally posted by Jeff C.: We should all start using our Hatrack names when we place orders.
I never have figured out how to verbally differentiate between my RL first name and my Hatrack SN. I'm guessing you may have a similar difficulty.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by jebus202: No Rabbit, MY pet peeves are normal, YOURS are ridiculous.
Much as it pains me to say this, I agree with jebus.
Personally, I hardly notice the first name thing -- but I've lived most of my adult life in California. And I hate the hon/honey/sweetie/sweetheart/sugar thing from people I have just met.
But really, each is just as valid or invalid a pet peeve as the other.
quote:Originally posted by Jeff C.: We should all start using our Hatrack names when we place orders.
I never have figured out how to verbally differentiate between my RL first name and my Hatrack SN. I'm guessing you may have a similar difficulty.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
As far as my local Starbucks is concerned, my name is "Hawk". They sometimes spell it "Hawke".
Every time I gave the name "Night", they asked me to spell it as if it was European or something. I mean, they never ask M. Night Shamalamaman to spell *his* name, do they?!?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I think Orin is being ridiculous. In American culture, People of equal status, call each other by their first names. Using someones first name in America does not suggest you are best friends. I know it isn't the same in many other cultures, but culture isn't right or wrong it just is. Get over it. .
I don't feel that I am of equal status to the person that is making me my coffee, in the limited context of that transaction. That's why they call you "sir," and use formalized language, and why you as the customer are not required to formalize your own speech to the same degree.
I'm being me, but I'm not being "ridiculous." Cut me so some slack and think about it from my perspective.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
So do they keep asking explicitly for your first name? What happens when you just give them your last name?
Hobbes Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
As I said, I'll try that. But I don't find the exchange to be strictly necessary anyway.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk: I mean, they never ask M. Night Shamalamaman to spell *his* name, do they?!?
He has people to go to Starbucks for him, silly.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by jebus202: [qb] No Rabbit, MY pet peeves are normal, YOURS are ridiculous.
Much as it pains me to say this, I agree with jebus.
Personally, I hardly notice the first name thing -- but I've lived most of my adult life in California. And I hate the hon/honey/sweetie/sweetheart/sugar thing from people I have just met.
My problem with being called hon/honey/sweetie by anyone other than my lover isn't the implied intimacy, its the condescension. When you address a stranger as "sweetie" you aren't implying you love them, you are implying that they are a child.
To me, the distinction is that terms of endearments, like honey/dear/sweetie, (when they are not being used to address a lover) are very frequently either condescending or passive-aggressive/sarcastic. "Honey" or "Sweetie" may be an appropriate the way you address a child whose name you don't know, never an adult.
What's more, using terms of endearment to address strangers is very commonly accompanied by a serious gender imbalance in the respect we afford other people. In my airplane story, the flight attendant called my husband "sir" and me "sweetie" on several occasions during the flight. The implied message was that He deserved respect but I deserved to be treated like a child.
By using your first name, a barriste may be acting like they are your equal. When they call you "sweetie", they are acting like their your superior.
I recognize that in parts of the south, its really common for people to call strange women, and sometimes even men, "honey". I suppose if I lived in one of those areas, I'd learn to live with it. But in the areas where I live, "honey" and "dear" are so frequently used in a condescending way that its very hard not to hear them that way even if that was not the intent.
quote:I'm being me, but I'm not being "ridiculous." Cut me so some slack and think about it from my perspective.
It's ridiculous to apply Czech cultural norms in California. Would you not find it ridiculous if an American complained about how rude and snobbish it was of Czech's to call people by their lastnames?
I actually do understand where you a coming from. I go through cultural shock every time I return to the US as well (although not about this particular issue). The things is, I've found I experience a lot more culture shock returning to the US than I have any where else in the world. When I travel to foreign countries, I'm a lot more open minded about cultural differences. When I return to the US, I'm expecting to feel at home and it's a shock to recognize that I am no longer comfortably part of my native culture. I've always been critical of those Americans who travel abroad and complain about how things aren't done like they are at home and I've recognized its rather hypocritical of me to do the same thing when I'm in America.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:yeah, it can be annoying, but at the same time people really do like it. It makes them feel secure, which will make them return to your restaraunt. Some choose to welcome you when you enter their establishment by saying something like "Welcome to XXX!!" while others use the name thing. Personally, I think it's all retarded, but people like attention, and anyone who talks to them and gives them the attention they secretly desire is going to be the place they return to.
This kind of behavior has been shown to work, which is why they do it. People are statistically more likely to return to a place that they enjoyed or that made them feel safe and personal over a place that doesn't.
This phenomenon is highly culturally specific. I can pretty much guarantee you that calling customers by their first names would not make Germans feel safe and welcome.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I don't think people usually mean to be condescending or false when they say "honey" or "sweetie" to strangers. I think they think they are being warm and folksy. I still hate it, though. I've fantasized about replying with "Thanks, sugarlips" or some equally silly escalation. I lack confidence that it would send the message, though.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: I don't think people usually mean to be condescending or false when they say "honey" or "sweetie" to strangers. I think they think they are being warm and folksy. I still hate it, though. I've fantasized about replying with "Thanks, sugarlips" or some equally silly escalation. I lack confidence that it would send the message, though.
They probably aren't being consciously condescending but that doesn't mean they aren't being condescending. If you are enculturated to see some people as lower status, you speak to them differently without ever considering why.
If you pay attention you will notice that people are most likely to use these terms when addressing someone they consider their inferior: (children, people who are younger them, women, subordinates, minorities, people who are poorly groomed etc.) Watch and see. Look at CaySedai's story about the Funeral director who called her "dear". Do you suppose he would have used a similar term if a man had been processing the Obit?
[ October 11, 2011, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
Seriously, I know someone that use to give the name "Zebulon" to places like Starbucks or at restaurants that have a waiting list. It kinda made sense; every time I give my name at a restaurant I have to wonder and go up and ask if the "David" they're shouting out is actually me or not... Just this last weekend there were five Davids at the restaurant I was at.
If they call for "Zebulon", you can be pretty sure you're it.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Maybe you should be even more specific and give your title as well, just in case there are multiple Zebulons. "Zebulon, Destroyer of Worlds" should do the trick.
Posted by J-Put (Member # 11752) on :
I lived my whole life in California, and this sounds like a strange thing to even get upset about. If somebody asked me my name for any reason other than some kind of paperwork I would automatically give my first name. That's just the norm there. It's not rude. Rude would be going in there and telling them off because our culture is somehow wrong and yours is obviously right.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
I'm a regular visitor to the Starbucks near my school/place of employment. Regular enough that the baristas know my name and my typical drink order and just ask if I'm having the usual. I find it wonderfully convenient, and have actually formed a friendship with of the the morning employees.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
We all spend too much on fancy coffee.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: We all spend too much on fancy coffee.
Not all of us. I've never spent a penny on fancy coffee and my closest friend drinks bargain brand instant.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: We all spend too much on fancy coffee.
Speak for yourself. In the average year, the number of times I go to a coffee shop can usually be counted on the fingers of one hand. And they're generally getting-together-with-a-friend or similar social things.
I make my daily fancy coffee at home.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: We all spend too much on fancy coffee.
Not all of us. I've never spent a penny on fancy coffee and my closest friend drinks bargain brand instant.
And are you proud of this?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Oh, I know not all of us at hatrack, or all of us on this thread, or all of us coffee drinkers. I meant all of us who visit Starbucks often enough to be included in the "we". Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Circular much?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Only when I am.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: We all spend too much on fancy coffee.
Not all of us. I've never spent a penny on fancy coffee and my closest friend drinks bargain brand instant.
And are you proud of this?
Proud of not drinking coffee myself. Not exactly "proud" but certainly happy with it. The disadvantages of being addicted to caffeine seem to far out weight the advantages in my opinion.
Proud of having a friend who drinks cheap instant coffee? Yes, I'm very proud to have this person as my closest friend. Only really shallow people choose their friends based on their coffee preferences and I'm proud not to be one of them.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Only when I am.
But that's always, except when you're not.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
You'd think so, evidently.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: Maybe you should be even more specific and give your title as well, just in case there are multiple Zebulons. "Zebulon, Destroyer of Worlds" should do the trick.
It doesn't fit on the sheet, and I'd much rather have them omit it than try to abbreviate.
Abbreviations are demeaning.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Proud of having a friend who drinks cheap instant coffee? Yes, I'm very proud to have this person as my closest friend. Only really shallow people choose their friends based on their coffee preferences and I'm proud not to be one of them.
Don't be petulant, I was asking whether you were proud of your friend for being cheap when it comes to coffee. I didn't take you for one of those "proud to be cheap" types.
And, incidentally, it makes sense to me that you don't appreciate the advantages of coffee drinking when you have friends who buy instant. That's like: "My friend drinks Rotgut Brand Malt Liquor, but I don't really see the advantages of alcohol consumption compared to the costs."
You're allowed to not like coffee and not buy it. Just don't dig at people who do buy it like it's a waste of money. You obviously have no idea.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
[ October 11, 2011, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Dobbie ]
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Proud of having a friend who drinks cheap instant coffee? Yes, I'm very proud to have this person as my closest friend. Only really shallow people choose their friends based on their coffee preferences and I'm proud not to be one of them.
Don't be petulant, I was asking whether you were proud of your friend for being cheap when it comes to coffee. I didn't take you for one of those "proud to be cheap" types.
And, incidentally, it makes sense to me that you don't appreciate the advantages of coffee drinking when you have friends who buy instant. That's like: "My friend drinks Rotgut Brand Malt Liquor, but I don't really see the advantages of alcohol consumption compared to the costs."
You're allowed to not like coffee and not buy it. Just don't dig at people who do buy it like it's a waste of money. You obviously have no idea.
Actually, it was scifibum who made the dig, not Rabbit. And for non-coffee drinkers, expensive coffee IS a waste of money, just like non-soda drinkers think Dr. Pepper is a waste of money or non-smokers think tobacco is a waste of money.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Circular much?
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Only when I am.
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: Maybe you should be even more specific and give your title as well, just in case there are multiple Zebulons. "Zebulon, Destroyer of Worlds" should do the trick.
I like "Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All" only I'm female and "Dark Lady of All" doesn't have quite the same ring.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:And, incidentally, it makes sense to me that you don't appreciate the advantages of coffee drinking when you have friends who buy instant.
I also have a friend whose many hobby is coffee. He blends, roasts, and grinds his own. He owns a dozen high tech coffee making machines. Visits the best coffee shops when he travels and can spend hours chatting with the staff on how to make better coffee. I also have friends who fall just about everywhere in between those two extremes.
I never criticized anyone for spending money on fancy coffee. I only objected to the assertion that we all do it. It doesn't bother me if people want to spend their money on expensive coffee, unless they are trying to borrow money from me for life essentials (which has happened on occasion).
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Can I have 5 dollars?
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: I make my daily fancy coffee at home.
What do you do at home that makes it fancy?
I'm not a big fan of what I think of as fancy coffee, but I'm a huge fan of coffee made from high quality, relatively lightly roasted beans. Does coffee brewed from such beans=fancy? I also make coffee concentrate regularly, and make iced coffee from it daily. Is that fancy?
:\ I'm thinking maybe it is.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jake:
quote:Originally posted by rivka: I make my daily fancy coffee at home.
What do you do at home that makes it fancy?
I nuke the milk and then froth it in my personal blender (Bullet knockoff). I also use flavored coffee pods in an almost-espresso-type machine.
Gives me a latte that tastes just as good as the mid-priced ones at a coffee shop (not quite as spiffy as the HOW-many-calories-are-in-that-thing extra-special ones, but I'm using skim milk), and for a fraction of the price.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
do they ask for the first name, specifically? As in, hi, I'm ____, what's your first name? Any time people in restarants ask me my name, I just give them my surname.
Except for that one time in Canada when it was loud, the girl was speaking quietly, and I misunderstood what she asked, so I said "no". She seemed somewhat surprised but then only said, "table for 2, no name" Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:A chatty barista asks my name, and I have to repeat it 3 times, and spell it. Then they have to use it. Why? I'm not your friend.
Fair warning, this is GRUMPY OLD MAN talk, if this attitude is left unmanaged it will metastasize you with incurable GRUMPY OLD MANness, it is better to just learn how to be friendly with people whose continued employment often depends on the expressly demonstrated ability to be chatty with customers! I would personally make light of the whole situation and be all like 'lol, we Czechs often don't do this whole call-by-name thing, and it actually sort of makes sense considering we have first names like borivjrovjzchcklasckjkjjjjj *pound keyboard for extra special characters*'
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
So are there actually no Starbucks in the Czech Republic, or do they just have a different name giving policy from Starbucks in the rest of Europe?
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
FAQ for Starbucks in the Czech Republic
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaySedai: I like "Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All" only I'm female and "Dark Lady of All" doesn't have quite the same ring.
Dark Mistress of All.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bella Bee: So are there actually no Starbucks in the Czech Republic, or do they just have a different name giving policy from Starbucks in the rest of Europe?
There are some locations in Prague (a handful) and I even have a friend working at one. In my limited experience with them, the name thing is not done. That follows Czech social customs, where a customer is refered to by 'sir' or 'lady'. Which produces hilarious reactions when Czechs use 'lady' (slečna) in English as a term of address, not knowing it's considered mildly rude.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
You know, sometimes random women at these sorts of places call me hen or something like it. I always notice it, as though the words are spoken with all-caps.
I don't really like it, and I'm not sure why.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: I would personally make light of the whole situation and be all like 'lol, we Czechs often don't do this whole call-by-name thing, and it actually sort of makes sense considering we have first names like borivjrovjzchcklasckjkjjjjj *pound keyboard for extra special characters*'
Heh. Well my first name is Welsh Gaelic, not Czech. But anyway, Czech first names are not complicated, just very generic. There are only a limited number of first names (under 200) for each sex.
I would say the weirdest traditional Czech name is Vojtěch, often rendered "Vojta" in the familiar.
Czechs until 1989 could not choose a name not listed on the calendar under a name day, limited the choices to several hundred. Today, Czechs may choose a name from a longer list of acceptable names, or they must petition for a name to be allowed if it is a foreign name (and they must prove that the name exists in use somewhere in the world).
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: I would personally make light of the whole situation and be all like 'lol, we Czechs often don't do this whole call-by-name thing, and it actually sort of makes sense considering we have first names like borivjrovjzchcklasckjkjjjjj *pound keyboard for extra special characters*'
Heh. Well my first name is Welsh Gaelic, not Czech. But anyway, Czech first names are not complicated, just very generic. There are only a limited number of first names (under 200) for each sex.
I would say the weirdest traditional Czech name is Vojtěch, often rendered "Vojta" in the familiar.
Czechs until 1989 could not choose a name not listed on the calendar under a name day, limited the choices to several hundred. Today, Czechs may choose a name from a longer list of acceptable names, or they must petition for a name to be allowed if it is a foreign name (and they must prove that the name exists in use somewhere in the world).
It is deeply sad to me that there are laws there about what you can name your kid. Because it's a massive affront to my sense of individual liberty, of course, but more importantly because this routine would be a lot less funny there.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
So, in theory, Moon Unit has a chance.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:What do you do at home that makes it fancy?
Psh. Being a fancy lady, it obviously follows that the coffee she makes (and drinks, if she holds it in her hand long enough) will also be fancy.
Duh! Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I actually think it's good when parents aren't allowed to name their kids "Crap Bucket" or whatever. The kid shouldn't have to deal with the parents' poor judgment or malice on something so central to identity.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
Well, I actually tend to think that people should be able to name themselves, kids included. But my concept of individual liberty extends to kids in most cases, so all agree it's pretty wacky and extreme.
Regardless, they should be allowed to have whatever name they choose, and I don't think governments should dictate rules about that to them.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Well my first name is Welsh Gaelic, not Czech.
I know a Welsh girl who has 36DDs. It's a ridiculously long name.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: So, in theory, Moon Unit has a chance.
Not a good chance. Generally speaking, only "respectable" and "appropriate" names will be registered. Names that constitute a possible insult are not allowed.
So there of obviously no "crap buckets," allowed, and accounting for the above requirements, "Adolf" is ruled out, as is Ghengis, or Sadaam.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:What do you do at home that makes it fancy?
Psh. Being a fancy lady, it obviously follows that the coffee she makes (and drinks, if she holds it in her hand long enough) will also be fancy.
Duh!
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:So tell them your name is "Mr. Lastname"
Yeah, but then it seems like HE'S being rude by being difficult.
He kind of is. In the modern US such informality is pretty standard. So getting mad at local custom is a bit rude. When in Rome and all of that.
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Amen CaySedai!! You are NOT too sensitive. This is just plain rude.
I was recently on an airplane where the stewardess (pardon me "flight attendant") kept calling me "sweetie". I want to say, "I'm not your sweetie, show a little respect". I should have. Next time I will.
I think Orin is being ridiculous. In American culture, People of equal status, call each other by their first names. Using someones first name in America does not suggest you are best friends. I know it isn't the same in many other cultures, but culture isn't right or wrong it just is. Get over it.
But calling someone by pet names, like "honey", "dear" or "sweetie", is just not something you do to people who are neither your lover nor a child. Its insulting.
Im the South and parts of the Southwest and Mid West it's normal for waitresses and the like to call men sweetie and in the South West male waiters and the like call men Boss. The situation is not much different than using the first name vs a more formal Mr/Miss So you are getting mad about the same thing you are telling Ornico not to get mad about.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
quote:Originally posted by aeolusdallas: So you are getting mad about the same thing you are telling Ornico not to get mad about.
Sorry. Ornico is good, but nothing beats Samprany of Orincolo.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dobbie:
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Well my first name is Welsh Gaelic, not Czech.
I know a Welsh girl who has 36DDs. It's a ridiculously long name.
I read this and I'm like: Why does having a large cup size make your name long? Ohhh...36 "Ds", not "36DDs".
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Heh. Well my first name is Welsh Gaelic, not Czech.
Nitpick: Welsh is not Gaelic. Gaelic refers to Irish or Scottish.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jake:
quote:Originally posted by aeolusdallas: So you are getting mad about the same thing you are telling Ornico not to get mad about.
Sorry. Ornico is good, but nothing beats Samprany of Orincolo.
I have a giant hat
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I live in a Giant Bucket.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
quote:Originally posted by Dobbie:
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Well my first name is Welsh Gaelic, not Czech.
I know a Welsh girl who has 36DDs. It's a ridiculously long name.
I read this and I'm like: Why does having a large cup size make your name long? Ohhh...36 "Ds", not "36DDs".
Welsh names are somewhat notorious for having a lot of extra letters, and paired Ds are very common.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by Jake:
quote:Originally posted by aeolusdallas: So you are getting mad about the same thing you are telling Ornico not to get mad about.
Sorry. Ornico is good, but nothing beats Samprany of Orincolo.
I have a giant hat
As befits the Samprany of Orincolo.
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
quote: Welsh names are somewhat notorious for having a lot of extra letters, and paired Ds are very common.
But you pronounce them like the 'th' in 'the'.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jake:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by Jake:
quote:Originally posted by aeolusdallas: So you are getting mad about the same thing you are telling Ornico not to get mad about.
Sorry. Ornico is good, but nothing beats Samprany of Orincolo.
I have a giant hat
As befits the Samprany of Orincolo.
In the Welsh alphabet DD is considered a separate letter.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
You quoted the wrong person, but your point is well taken. Didn't know that!
Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
The name thing is done in Starbucks in Prague, but not all the time. Pretty much as a coffee identifier when there's a big crowd, as is done elsewhere. I have been known to use my daughter's name too, or make up a random name, because I also don't enjoy repeating my unusual (for here) name a couple of times only to have it misspelled.
Of course, you could always do as I do and get a distinctive tumbler that never needs distinguishing from the others.
Also, if any Czechs say "lady" in English, they probably mean "paní" - just like in Polish, it means Mrs., ma'am and Lady (as a noble title). Just like pan means Mr., sir and Lord.
Just as a point of interest Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Lissande, I'm curious. At the Starbucks in Prague, when they ask for a name do Czechs normally give their first name or their last name? In Germany, I would expect most people to give their last name in that situation. Of course, its possible that most of the customers at the Starbucks in Prague are ex-pats not Czechs.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I'd expect they'd give first names actually. First names are so generic, there will never be a problem understanding them. surnames number in the tens of thousands- including many of foreign extraction, so there will be Czech surnames that a Czech has never heard before.
It would only be more common for a Czech to ask after another with their surname- say at an office or a school, especially since in any given office, it's quite likely that a common first name will be shared among several people.
Though I do think there is a special place in hell for the people who name their kids Jan Novak and Eva Novakova. Do you know Jan Novak? Why yes I do! Everyone knows several.
And Lissande- I was thinking of "Slecna/Slecno" as a false friend, rather than "Pani," but it's as good or better a guess than mine. In my experience people get the whole pani=miss thing because they have to learn to write formal letters in school: Dear Miss x, etc. But when they want to get a little more formal, they mix in "lady" where it doesn't belong as a replacement for slecno, thinking that it must translate to lady, since pani is so commonly translated to miss. "Ma'am" is avoided because it is phonemically too close to "mom," in English and "mam" in Czech- so the teachers don't like it, and the students never learn it.
It is an ongoing shock to me actually how much of a country's literacy and proficiency in a foreign language has to do with which aspects of the language teachers and linguists actually like.
For instance, Czechs like to ask questions in the negative, so learning question tags (ie: You're tired, aren't you?) is easy for them. But they hate conditional tenses because they don't really exist in Czech, and so rather than saying: "If you would buy me a coffee, I could pay you back tomorrow," they make it a request or something else: "please buy me a coffee. I will pay you back tomorrow."
Lack of conditionals is one of the number one reasons Czechs have communication issues at later stages of English learning- it's one of the last things they will grasp, and it makes them (and a lot of slavs) seem very rude, even though they aren't trying to be.
(sorry I don't have diacritics on my laptop keyboard).
[ October 13, 2011, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Orincoro ]
Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
Rabbit - the few times I was there, I only heard people giving first names. I'm not saying people wouldn't find it a little strange to be asked for their name, but it does / did happen at least sometimes. Whether people introduce themselves by first or last name really depends on the social situation. Business meeting, last name. Social or casual meeting (friend of friend, etc.), first name. Also depends on age and other factors, of course.
Orincoro - it really isn't at all accurate to say Czech doesn't have conditionals. It has them and uses them frequently, and if you don't do so correctly you sound rude. I think what you're observing is that not all Czechs learn ENGLISH conditionals correctly and thus often butcher them and sound, as you say, rude. In fact, I have a friend who said his American conversational English teacher told him, "Don't bother learning these conditionals. We never use them in English anyway!" Which of course is pure nonsense. The Czech conditional simply works differently than in English, and since it's one of the later grammatical concepts taught - and apparently not always taught, as above - a lot of intermediate speakers don't master it.
As for slecna / pani, you may know this, but slecna actually means Miss or young lady - an unmarried female. I still get called slecna sometimes by people assuming my girlish face means I'm not married and my preschool daughter is also called slecna (for example, "you're such a grown up young lady (velka slecna)"). Generally I've noticed a lot of people use slecna across the board for anyone looking youngish (assuming young = unmarried) and pani for anyone looking adultish (say, over 30). Pani technically implies you're married but for mature women it can be used for single or married. And then the origin of the words pan and pani is lord and lady if you go back a couple of centuries. These days, of course, they're more equivalent to sir and ma'am as we use them back where I'm from.
Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is there isn't always a straight correlation between what Czechs say when they don't speak good English and what actually exists in Czech. Or rather, there is a correlation, but it may be more complicated than it appears at first sight. My commendations on making the attempt to learn, anyway - not everyone bothers, and it gets you major brownie points when you do!
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote: Orincoro - it really isn't at all accurate to say Czech doesn't have conditionals. It has them and uses them frequently, and if you don't do so correctly you sound rude. I think what you're observing is that not all Czechs learn ENGLISH conditionals correctly and thus often butcher them and sound, as you say, rude.
No conditional *tenses* I said- as in the English 0-4 conditional tenses. Of course there are conditionals in Czech- I do speak Czech, though I'm not a native.
quote: Or rather, there is a correlation, but it may be more complicated than it appears at first sight. My commendations on making the attempt to learn, anyway - not everyone bothers, and it gets you major brownie points when you do!
Oh I know. I spend a lot of time thinking about how one logically arrives upon one or another English word or construction of a particular sentence, and how that correlates to Czech. Actually that helps me learn Czech as well. I'm starting a masters prep program at Charles University in three months- so I'll be studying Czech full time for a year. Looking forward to it.
Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
Although to get back to the point of the thread, I don't get worked up about giving my (or a...) name out at a coffeeshop, but I'm not very impressed by it either.
What drove me right up the wall, though, was the staff at the Starbucks we went to this summer when visiting my family. My husband came home complaining he'd had to repeat his order three times before the girl ringing him up understood what he wanted. He was depressed and wondering if his English is that bad (it is top notch). We went in a few more times, I ordered each time, and had the SAME PROBLEM. I theorized it was the lack of a strong regional accent, but then I had to explain to one employee what one of the drinks we ordered actually was...so I concluded it was them, not us.
Seriously, never had that problem in Prague. Employees understand us both straight away and actually know their own products...it does make you ponder the concept of language barriers, though. It's not as simple as foreign = barrier, native = no barrier, it seems Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I find ordering something in Czech establishment generally easier than in an American one. It's probably me (and the fact that I make a special effort to speak very clearly in Czech), but Czechs always seem like better listeners. And because I have an accent, they don't pepper me with a lot of extraneous dialogue.
Although I do get the "there is a third eye growing out of your forehead" look from people sometimes while speaking Czech- although less often in a restaurant than somewhere else.
This can be funny or depressing. For instance, Czech tourists ask me for directions occasionally in Prague because I look local- then when I give the directions, they give me this embarrassed look and just sort of nod look around for someone else to talk to- even when I know I've given the right information.
Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
I used to get the third eye looks too It's funny how shocking people find it to hear Czech spoken with a foreign accent, since it's so uncommon for foreigners to learn it to a high level. These days I slip under the radar except when out with my family: we speak Slovak, English and Czech, and while between the two of us we usually stick to one or the other (that is, both English, or him Slovak and me Czech), with our daughter we each speak our own language, so you have a lot of family conversations where one parent speaks one language with the child, then the other parent jumps in with a comment in the other language, and maybe a side comment in the third language. People have NO IDEA what to make of that. It does sound funny if you only understand one side of the conversation, I can imagine. And yet, to us it is completely normal-sounding!
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Czech tourists ask me for directions occasionally in Prague because I look local- then when I give the directions, they give me this embarrassed look and just sort of nod look around for someone else to talk to- even when I know I've given the right information.
That happens to me here in Spain. If the explanation is more than a couple of sentences they hear the accent and people will come right out and say 'Oh, but you're not even Spanish!' To which I reply more or less 'No, but where you're looking for is still exactly where I just said it was.'
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lissande: I used to get the third eye looks too It's funny how shocking people find it to hear Czech spoken with a foreign accent, since it's so uncommon for foreigners to learn it to a high level. These days I slip under the radar except when out with my family: we speak Slovak, English and Czech, and while between the two of us we usually stick to one or the other (that is, both English, or him Slovak and me Czech), with our daughter we each speak our own language, so you have a lot of family conversations where one parent speaks one language with the child, then the other parent jumps in with a comment in the other language, and maybe a side comment in the third language. People have NO IDEA what to make of that. It does sound funny if you only understand one side of the conversation, I can imagine. And yet, to us it is completely normal-sounding!
Yeah. I feel as if my skin has turned blue or something when I get out of the capital or worse, when I'm in Bratislava- because I can only *sort of* understand what's going on in Slovak, enough to get directions for a tram or order a meal or buy something- but the looks I get are priceless. Though I'll say, unlike in Prague, speaking pigeony Czech in a village or a regional capital often goes over really well. Local girls adore it, and they'll want to talk to you for an hour about nothing because they've never had a real conversation with a foreigner before.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bella Bee:
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Czech tourists ask me for directions occasionally in Prague because I look local- then when I give the directions, they give me this embarrassed look and just sort of nod look around for someone else to talk to- even when I know I've given the right information.
That happens to me here in Spain. If the explanation is more than a couple of sentences they hear the accent and people will come right out and say 'Oh, but you're not even Spanish!' To which I reply more or less 'No, but where you're looking for is still exactly where I just said it was.'
I've had that experience with Spanish tourists in Prague as well. They are casting about for landmarks, and I stop to offer some help in my pretty good Spanish (studied privately in Prague for several years), and sometimes they just don't know what to make of it.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
I love Luxembourg. The fact that most people speak at least 3 languages and there are plenty of mixed families is just awesome and means that noone is surprised/annoyed at your poor French. I think it makes people here more able to understand foreigners than elsewhere.
My friend's young children who grew up here were very surprised once when they had a visit from some Polish friends who only spoke Polish. They couldn't understand how that's even possible Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I wonder myself, these days. I'm working on my third language- but what would make me highly exceptional in California is mundane in Europe. I also wonder what it will do to my sense of self-identity when my Czech becomes better than my Spanish- a day which is fast approaching.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I'm late to the party, but I am an American who gets annoyed with places asking for my name on orders. For some reason, in my town there seem to be a lot of places that will do it.
My name is hard to pronounce and spell, and so I never give it, I give the name Annie as a "close enough" sort of nickname. Or Anita, sometimes, if I'm feeling sassy. But that's not what bugs me.
The reason it bugs me is because they're assuming that we all should have names that they know how to say and spell. Why should we assume that? There are plenty of people in the United States named Maneesh and Ming Zhi and Thobeka. Why are we basing our business model on the idea that we're going to have a room full of Melissas and Scotts?
One more funny anecdote: my roommate and I went to a new little place in town that sells crêpes and Belgian style waffles and placed our orders. We were the only people there. They asked for our names. I blatantly looked around me and then turned back and said "You need our names?"
"Yes, please. What are your names?"
"I'm Anneke and she's Clémence."
"Um, how do you spell that?"
"Just like it sounds," I said, a little snotty.
We then sat down and waited, again, the only ones there. In a few minutes our order was ready and the girl tried to pronounce our names. "Ah-NEEK and .. um... Clay... I don't know how to say this one."
Good thing she asked!
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Another thought: as a person with a difficult-to-pronounce name, I would rather have someone not use it than make a big deal over the fact that they don't know how to pronounce it.
I am aware that most Americans don't know how to pronounce my first name. Actually, to make things even more difficult, there are a few who speak Dutch and do know how to pronounce my name, except my mom thought she was Anglicizing it and gave it its own pronunciation so even the people who are saying it right are saying it wrong. I know all of this. I am not going to be offended if you don't know how to say my name. I am not going to be offended if you pronounce it incorrectly. I don't know why it's so common for people to get all worked up about it and "apologize for slaughtering it" or insist that I correct them.
Wouldn't life be a lot easier if you just called me Miss when you couldn't pronounce my name?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie: We then sat down and waited, again, the only ones there. In a few minutes our order was ready and the girl tried to pronounce our names. "Ah-NEEK and .. um... Clay... I don't know how to say this one."
Good thing she asked!
The "lemme get your name" thing does seem to hinge on everybody being a Scott, Joe, John, or an Alex; a Betty, Sandra, or a Megan. It's grating (at least for me) to have to deal with people constantly asking for the spelling of your name, commenting on your name, and naming the other people that also have your name (which is *not* interesting conversation for me).
I bet people with more common names don't get hassled nearly as much as I do- I wonder if that affects the way they feel about this custom.
As for people not being able to *hear* my name- I'm no closer to a solution to this problem. I don't feel comfortable making up a name, and I don't have any nicknames. "Lloyd" is just not a name people are prepared to hear- and you wouldn't know this unless you *were* a Lloyd, because it is a known name. But I'd say 90% of the time, people ask me to repeat my name at least once- often more than once. It has no sharp consonant sounds at all, and the d is aspirated. I've found the problem to be that people are rarely actively listening when you say your name- instead they parrot your name back to you automatically, and only then register it. On the rare occasion when I give my name and the person doesn't *immediately* repeat it back to me, I know instinctively that I will have to give them my name again, because they will instantly forget it. It's just an instinct you develop via repetition.
I think part of it is lack of familiarity with the name in use. When you hear a name- you have various associations that are subconscious or subliminal: You see the name as it appears in writing- the face of a person with that name, or a location with that name, a painting, a work of art associated with it. But "Lloyd," has a small store of associated images- very few of them faces. There are some recent pop-culture associations, but people think of Jim Carrey, not of Lloyd Christmas- so the name association doesn't stick that way. Christopher Lloyd is commonly sited- Frank Lloyd Wright is the other reference I'll get. Very occasionally, Lloyd's Bank or The barbecue sauce brand Lloyd's.
My last name is even worse for this, so please, the next time you meet someone with an unusual name, remember, THEY KNOW!!!
You'd think that'd be common sense... but it is not.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Both my first name and my last name fall in a middle ground where they are neither common nor unusual in the English speaking world. I like that since I don't have to deal with people always finding it strange or having a dozen people who share my name.
There is, however, a modestly popular rock singer who uses my name and its not uncommon for people to remark on that. Since she assumed the name, I think she should pay me royalties for its use.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by Annie: We then sat down and waited, again, the only ones there. In a few minutes our order was ready and the girl tried to pronounce our names. "Ah-NEEK and .. um... Clay... I don't know how to say this one."
Good thing she asked!
The "lemme get your name" thing does seem to hinge on everybody being a Scott, Joe, John, or an Alex; a Betty, Sandra, or a Megan. It's grating (at least for me) to have to deal with people constantly asking for the spelling of your name, commenting on your name, and naming the other people that also have your name (which is *not* interesting conversation for me).
I bet people with more common names don't get hassled nearly as much as I do- I wonder if that affects the way they feel about this custom.
As for people not being able to *hear* my name- I'm no closer to a solution to this problem. I don't feel comfortable making up a name, and I don't have any nicknames. "Lloyd" is just not a name people are prepared to hear- and you wouldn't know this unless you *were* a Lloyd, because it is a known name. But I'd say 90% of the time, people ask me to repeat my name at least once- often more than once. It has no sharp consonant sounds at all, and the d is aspirated. I've found the problem to be that people are rarely actively listening when you say your name- instead they parrot your name back to you automatically, and only then register it. On the rare occasion when I give my name and the person doesn't *immediately* repeat it back to me, I know instinctively that I will have to give them my name again, because they will instantly forget it. It's just an instinct you develop via repetition.
I think part of it is lack of familiarity with the name in use. When you hear a name- you have various associations that are subconscious or subliminal: You see the name as it appears in writing- the face of a person with that name, or a location with that name, a painting, a work of art associated with it. But "Lloyd," has a small store of associated images- very few of them faces. There are some recent pop-culture associations, but people think of Jim Carrey, not of Lloyd Christmas- so the name association doesn't stick that way. Christopher Lloyd is commonly sited- Frank Lloyd Wright is the other reference I'll get. Very occasionally, Lloyd's Bank or The barbecue sauce brand Lloyd's.
My last name is even worse for this, so please, the next time you meet someone with an unusual name, remember, THEY KNOW!!!
You'd think that'd be common sense... but it is not.
Make it easy for them: use the Welsh pronunciation.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: There is, however, a modestly popular rock singer who uses my name and its not uncommon for people to remark on that. Since she assumed the name, I think she should pay me royalties for its use.
Ah, the Michael Bolton problem.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I can't believe I told the Bobs I like that ***muncher's music.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
How do you pronounce Anneke?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
It rhymes with panicky.
The Dutch pronunciation rhymes with Hanukkah.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I've known people with that name. If forced to spell it the well I've heard it, rhymed with Hanukkah, I would write Anicka.
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
The further down the thread I read, the more I think this must be a regional thing, or at least differ from town to town. When I lived in Maryland, they'd ask my name. If I went to Panera Bread, they didn't.
Now I live in New Jersey and they never ask for my name at Starbucks, but they always do at Panera.
Go figure.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I'm a supply teacher so I regularly have to pronounce names that are either familiar or pronounced in an unfamiliar fashion.
For example, I would pronounce Anneke as rhyming with Hanukkah and I would be wrong with this individual Anneke simply because she pronounces her name in a way that is different from my "original and standard" Anneke. Of course, some Annekes are actually spelt Annicka, or pronounced An-ekah.
The name Aliya, for example, is sometimes A!-liya and sometimes Aah-liya. I actually have begun to question my own ability to read words at all because I never know how a vowel or a combination are going to be pronounced.
Doesn't help that a significant number of Mohammeds (but not all Mohammeds) have another name for everyday use that does not appear anywhere on the register (attendance).
Even names I think I know really well I sometimes get burned on, so I have begun to question even the most basic name like Jane or William. "Are you sure you're not Jan-ay?"
As the world gets more diverse and more names enter the name bank, names will become more and more unpronounceable simply because there will be know way of knowing, from paper, how to pronounce each name-- even with a familiarity with the name itself.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
The last time I was at a Starbucks where they asked me my name (it's been over a year now since I was last in the continental U.S.), I got this response:
"How do you spell it?"
*taken aback for a second* "with an h"
A few minutes later, I saw my cup, with "Jhon" inscribed on the sleeve. Yeah, it happens even to those of us with ridiculously common names.
Likewise, I have a short, normally spelled, easy to pronounce, fairly uncommon English last name that almost no American (outside of Boston) can pronounce. And yet, in the Philippines, everyone I met knew exactly how to pronounce it. Just reading it from my name tapes, too, with no primer.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Dogbreath: Yep. I don't correct people when they call me Tyler, unless they ask me if that's actually my name. Taylor isn't a weird name on a boy, but it's not extremely common.
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It's funny how shocking people find it to hear Czech spoken with a foreign accent, since it's so uncommon for foreigners to learn it to a high level. These days I slip under the radar except when out with my family: we speak Slovak, English and Czech, and while between the two of us we usually stick to one or the other (that is, both English, or him Slovak and me Czech), with our daughter we each speak our own language, so you have a lot of family conversations where one parent speaks one language with the child, then the other parent jumps in with a comment in the other language, and maybe a side comment in the third language. People have NO IDEA what to make of that. It does sound funny if you only understand one side of the conversation, I can imagine. And yet, to us it is completely normal-sounding!