Rather than state my own slant on the story, I'm simply providing a link to Anderson Cooper reporting about Dr. George Rekers and how his experiments on a five year old boy have both shaped the argument in favor of treating homosexuality and destroyed a little boy. This is the same George Rekers who has been considered an expert on curing homosexuality and last year was found to have taken a trip to Europe with a young man who has admitted to providing naked massages to Rekers.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Well there is the opposite swing of the pendulum from the goofy parents. Hey. At least he grew up normal and learned those valuable social expectations that allowed him to form deep bonds with other boys.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
Did you watch the video? he was violently punished at the age of five for anything they decided was feminine, his sister says that he never had a meaningful relationship with anyone in his thirt-eight years before he killed himself. They beat a little boy into self repression until he was cold inside, how is that "valuable social expectations?"
quote: At least he grew up normal
For atleast three years of high-school he ate his lunch alone in the boys bathroom, how is this normal?
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I'm sorry, AchillesHeel. I was being sarcastic. See the thread on the goofy parents who are trying to raise their child without telling people the gender of the baby.
ETA: I sort of figured that anyone who had read any of my posts would have gotten the sarcasm. It wasn't subtle in my head.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
*adjusts AH's sarcasm detector*
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I watched parts one and two...couldn't find three.
Just goes to show you, you can get a square peg in a round hole...if you use a hammer and enough force, just don't count on the square peg surviving intact.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
Sorry, Im rather inflamed about this and thats why I just stated the facts in my original post. The story gets even darker when you find out that Rekers had many many more patients in that study, and he did the same to all those kids as well.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
That's a really tragic story.
And Kate, I sincerely hope you realize that isn't remotely what I was suggesting in the other thread. I'm a bit disappointed to see you twist my words that way.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
I would let my kid do any goofy stupid thing short of hurting themself or others if it kept them happy inside, just to be as far from this example as possible. How could a mother and father do that to a happy five year old.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Rabbit, it would never occur to me to think that you would beat your children or advocate beating children under any circumstances. I do think that through the years a lot of parents have done a less extreme and less formal version of this "training" because they were afraid that their child wouldn't be able to fit in.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
AH...not to pick nits, but I think you have to curtail goofiness to a sane degree to allow them to be happy inside as an adult...that is to say...raise them.
Not that I disagree with your assessment of the parents in this case.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Rabbit, it would never occur to me to think that you would beat your children or advocate beating children under any circumstances. I do think that through the years a lot of parents have done a less extreme and less formal version of this "training" because they were afraid that their child wouldn't be able to fit in.
And even that isn't remotely what I was suggesting in the the other thread.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Rabbit, it would never occur to me to think that you would beat your children or advocate beating children under any circumstances. I do think that through the years a lot of parents have done a less extreme and less formal version of this "training" because they were afraid that their child wouldn't be able to fit in.
And even that isn't remotely what I was suggesting in the the other thread.
Did she suggest that you were advocating something like it in the other thread? I don't see where she did that.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
quote: I watched parts one and two...couldn't find three.
That would be tonights episode of Anderson Cooper.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Then I misunderstood what you were trying to convey about the value of learning to do stereotypically "girly" things in order to be able to bond with other women.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Then I misunderstood what you were trying to convey about the value of learning to do stereotypically "girly" things in order to be able to bond with other women.
Yes, you very much did because even that isn't what I said. I said there is value in learning to understand how other people are most likely to see and interpret your actions because that understanding allows you to make an informed choice.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Rabbit, it would never occur to me to think that you would beat your children or advocate beating children under any circumstances. I do think that through the years a lot of parents have done a less extreme and less formal version of this "training" because they were afraid that their child wouldn't be able to fit in.
And even that isn't remotely what I was suggesting in the the other thread.
Did she suggest that you were advocating something like it in the other thread? I don't see where she did that.
This is between me and Kate. Butt out.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
There is a cost and benefit to nonconformity, and a cost and benefit to conformity...I think all Rabbit was saying is that as adults, we get to pick our own balance.
ETA...now I wish I had hit the refresh button before posting.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
Really Rabbit?
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Ah...my mistake. Rather than understanding that you were advocating teaching children that gender stereotypes exist, I understood you to be saying that there was value in teaching children to adhere to those stereotypes.
I think that children under a certain age are more apt to learn the stereotypical behavior than the more complicated concept that gender stereotypes exist and that some people will expect them to be followed.
ETA: Regardless of what Rabbit may have written, there are plenty of parents who formally or intentionally or accidentally stamp gender stereotypes onto their children.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:This is between me and Kate. Butt out.
This is a public forum. If you want a private conversation, there are alternatives such as instant messaging, email, etc.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:This is between me and Kate. Butt out.
It is not uncommon for you to comment on what one poster has said to another.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: Really Rabbit?
Sorry AH, the "Butt Out" comment was intended only for Scott. Its a long story. The short version is that Scott feels it necessary to continue a fight we had on Sake nearly two weeks ago. I have no patients for it. I've asked him both public and privately to stop it. He won't.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:This is between me and Kate. Butt out.
It is not uncommon for you to comment on what one poster has said to another.
That's not the issue.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: There is a cost and benefit to nonconformity, and a cost and benefit to conformity...I think all Rabbit was saying is that as adults, we get to pick our own balance.
ETA...now I wish I had hit the refresh button before posting.
That's a really good summary Stone_Wolf_.
The only thing that I would add is that because there is both a cost and a benefit to conforming to social norms, there is a benefit to learning what those social norms are. If you understand what the social norms are and the price of flauting them, then you can be free to choose.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
How do you convey that cost and benefit to a toddler? To a preschooler?
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
You don't. You just let them be themselves and love them and try and teach them English. At least that's what I'm doing.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Right. But how far do we go in letting them "be themselves"? That is kind of the question here. Do we let boys "be themselves" if they want to play with dolls? Decide that they want a pink bike? Wear dresses?
I think that it is almost impossible for parents to foist at least some of their expectations onto their kids and a lot of that is good. We expect them to learn to share and to not hit and so forth. But where might we be harming kids who don't happily fit our expectations of gender?
While there is the occasional goofy set of parents (who I think are foisting off plenty expectations of their own) or blogger who writes about her son wearing drag for Halloween there are likely thousands of little boys and girls who are quietly trimming off bits of their personality to fit into the gender roles that people consider "normal".
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
My son can play with dolls if he likes...and if he wants to wear a dress (in the future, he is 20 months and isn't old enough to be a part of picking his cloths yet) I'll get him a kilt...we are partially Scottish. The kilt is because it is a nice middle ground...more acceptable to society then a dress but still fulfills his wants to play dress up.
The main answer is still Rabbit's...balance.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
That balance has been skewed for just about all of history. That is the problem for those whose "center" is not the same as it is for other people.
Which is why I get less outraged about the goofy parents who give their kids gender neutral names and use idiotic pronouns and let their sons wear braids. They are out there but the damage they might do is enormously outweighed by the damage done by "normal" parents.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:They are out there but the damage they might do is enormously outweighed by the damage done by "normal" parents.
I'm not sure-- what evidence do you have for this point of view, and what measuring stick are you using to gauge "damage" and "normal?"
quote:Its a long story. The short version is that Scott feels it necessary to continue a fight we had on Sake nearly two weeks ago.
Rabbit is incorrect about my motives.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Rabbit is incorrect about my motives.
I didn't said anything about your motives, just your behavior. You are continuing a line of personal criticism that started two weeks ago on Sake despite my having asked you repeatedly to stop. That's a fact that does not require me to speculate about your intent.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Scott feels it necessary
??
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I don't know. Boys who play with dolls learn how to care for babies. As anyone can see if you saw me I don't much care for traditional gender roles and such. Men can have long lovely hair, women can have short hair, folks can just be themselves and NOT be tormented with weapons over it!
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I'm not sure there is such a thing as normal parents. Everybody presents their own skewed view of the world to their kids.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Well, yes. "Skewed" is hard to pin down, though. Boys should play with trucks and girls should play with dolls would not be considered skewed by most people but it is skewed from the perspective of some kids.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I think "most people" think...boys like to play with trucks and girls like to play with dolls...not should.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Well, yes. "Skewed" is hard to pin down, though. Boys should play with trucks and girls should play with dolls would not be considered skewed by most people but it is skewed from the perspective of some kids.
I dunno. The word "should" is giving me problems.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I used "should" deliberately. I don't have a problem with "most boys like...". In fact, I think it is probably true. I have a problem with "should" and I think that up until recently, "should" was the default.
Sort of like right and left-handedness in earlier generations. I have no problem with people believing that fact that most people write with their right hand. What was problematic was people believing that people should write with their right hand and insisting that their children do so. The family in the OP clearly thought that their son should be more stereotypically masculine.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
But that was a long time ago, the way we do things has changed a lot from the 50s(?).
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Right and left handedness, sure.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Not really. When I was pregnant with our second child (now 3) our first son, 1 1/2 at the time, got very interested in babies. The people who worked in the church nursery felt the need to check with us to see if it was okay that he was playing with the baby dolls. We said of course it's okay, he's practicing to be a good big brother. They told us that lots of parents prefer that they discourage their sons from playing with the dolls.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Parents could have fairly conservative "shoulds" for their kids but by and large tell them "it's okay to be different." Or have progressive "shoulds" and tell their kids "here's how we want you to be different." You can keep the shoulds in the background or you can keep them in the foreground.
No parents are neutral about how they want their kids to think or what they want them to become (unless they completely ignore and neglect their kids). Their desires for their kids can certainly change over time. But the difference is how they enforce those desires. Wouldn't that be where the damage ultimately comes from, if the parents do it wrong?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Rabbit is incorrect about my motives.
I didn't said anything about your motives, just your behavior. You are continuing a line of personal criticism that started two weeks ago on Sake despite my having asked you repeatedly to stop. That's a fact that does not require me to speculate about your intent.
Can we be done with this now? This place is already whimsical enough without importing drama from other forums.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: How do you convey that cost and benefit to a toddler? To a preschooler?
It isn't certainly isn't easy, but it isn't easy to teach kids anything. It can be a constant effort just to teach share and don't hit.
When it comes to play, I think there is very little any adult can do to influence how children play when left to their own devices.
My comments in the other thread were about grooming and dress which I think is a different issue. I think kids need to be taught societal norms of grooming and dress and encouraged to follow them. I think there is enough diversity within our current societies grooming and fashion norms to allow people plenty of latitude for self expression.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
I figured if this was publicly funded then it would be on PubMed, so I did a search for GA Rekers. And sure enough...
--j_k
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:When it comes to play, I think there is very little any adult can do to influence how children play when left to their own devices.
If there are no dolls in the home, the kid won't be playing with dolls very much, unless they spend a significant amount of time outside the home.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Just as kids can make guns from just about anything, kids can make "dolls" of a remarkable number of non-doll-like objects.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
That makes sense.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Oh, when I was a kid I wanted a Tonka dump truck so badly! There were other things I said I wanted that was given (puzzles, a sixteen inch fashion doll like my sister's) but all my "boy" toys were hand-me-downs from my brother (matchbox cars, marbles). When my brother's girlfriend gave me a "natural baby" doll with a box of clothes she had knitted herself, I tied it to my back for games of "the floor is lava" and otherwise ignored the ugly thing.
I danced ballet because I wanted to, and was good at it, but also had a reputation for aggressive play on the soccer field. As a teen I beat my brother's National Guard buddies at paintball. They nicknamed me "Killer."
I had sons only, but you'd better believe that if they wanted a Polly Pocket, they got a freakin' Polly Pocket. My youngest would often snatch the Polly Pockets from the reward chest in first grade, and then hide them so teh other kids wouldn't see that he'd chosen a "girl" toy. His teacher and I both encouraged him to get what he wanted. (And those Polly Pocket things were cool. A pet carrier that opens up and has a tiny vet's office inside? Seriously, how cool is that?)
The worst thing you can do is over-examine things like that, I think. If you let a child be him/herself and determine to love whoever that ends up being, you'll manage.
(I suspect it might have been harder for me if I'd had a daughter who was very passive and "girly" than boys disinterested in sports, but I'll never know.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Just as kids can make guns from just about anything, kids can make "dolls" of a remarkable number of non-doll-like objects.
My brothers and I would sharpen sticks on the curb, we werent even allowed water guns and my oldest brother had a cabbage patch doll so beloved that we still have it after his passing.