This is topic Infinite Ryvius: A better Battlestar Galactica than Battlestar Galactica! in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.
Set in the year AD 2225, mankind has spread from Earth to inhabit nearly all the planets or nearby moons in colonies and settlements. Space travel has grown and improved to the point of being commonplace. For the inhabitants of the solar system, an astronaut career isn't out of the question, and one of the schools set up to train future space voyagers is the Liebe Delta, a space station positioned somewhere in Earth's orbit. This growth is despite the mysterious phenomenon known as the Geduld, a sea of plasma that suddenly erupted from the sun along the Earth's orbital plane in AD 2137. Stretching from the sun to the edge of the solar system, this area of high temperatures and gravity pressures has never been explained.
Kouji Aiba is a sixteen-year-old boy who packed his bags and left his home on Earth for the Liebe Delta and the training to obtain his Level 2 piloting license. He journeys to the space station accompanied by his childhood friend, Aoi Housen, whom Kouji discovers to his chagrin has enrolled in the Liebe Delta's flight attendant program. En route to the spaceport Aoi gives Kouji the unwelcome news that his younger brother, Yuki, is also to attend the Liebe Delta and in fact the brothers will be in the same flight class together. Aoi ends with quipping that the boys' mother Mrs. Aiba had asked Aoi to look after the brothers while at school. Kouji's unhappy moodiness does not improve.
Once aboard the space station, the students and teaching staff on the Liebe Delta were like any other school, normal and concerned with their own affairs and classes. They even had a vacation period, known as the Dive Break, when the ship ventured near the Geduld for system maintenance. Out of about 1000+ students, about 500 stayed for the break. Unknowingly to all, the space station, in the middle of the routine dive considered so regular that it was entrusted to the elite Zwei cadet class, was sabotaged and the majority of the staff gassed and rendered unconscious. Free falling into the depths of the Geduld Sea, where the resulting gravity pressures would crush the station and kill all aboard. The remaining adults, all instructors, sacrificed their lives to save the majority of students on board. When their heroic actions proved unsuccessful and the Liebe Delta hung on the verge of collapsing, a mysterious ship named RYVIUS, hidden within the Liebe Delta activated itself and surfaced from the Geduld Sea. There were a total of 515 personnel on board the Liebe Delta at the beginning of the dive. Of which a total of 486 were successfully evacuated. Meaning that a total of 29 people were killed in the sabotaged dive. 8 were instructors, 12 were the gassed staff that were later executed by the 2 saboteurs, and 9 students. The average age of the Ryvius crew is 16, so the story, despite its space-age setting, is more of a coming-of-age tale than anything else.
Stranded in space, with humanity's governments forsaking them, and within the ship anger, agitation and fear setting in, Kouji tries his best to maintain a semblance of order and peace in a time of crisis. But with fighting his own brother Yuki, dealing with his feelings for the beautiful Uranian aristocrat Fina S. Shinozaki, trying to avoid Aoi, and seeing the strange apparition of a girl in pink wandering the halls, will Kouji be able to help until the Ryvius reaches safety, or will he lose all that's dear to him in the process?
In the aftermath, 486 children of varying ages find themselves aboard the Ryvius, a mysterious spaceship which was concealed within the core of Liebe Delta. With limited supplies, no adult supervision, and hostile forces still after them, they struggle to escape their pursuers and form a stable society. All they want is to be rescued - but a Government Conspiracy has convinced the media that the Ryvius has actually been commandeered by the same terrorists who destroyed Liebe Delta, so finding safe harbor will be no easy task.
The show has been described as a cross between Lost In Space and Lord Of The Flies, by way of The Hunt For Red October. It won the 2000 award for Best TV Animation at the fifth animation Kobe.
I'ld more accurately describe it like Ender's Game meets Hunt of the Red October meets Battlestar Galactica, very mature anime, I very much suggest it if you like Scifi or Battlestar.
Why is it that for every major good scifi or fantasy show that airs in the west there is almost always a much better anime or manga that has the same premise but did it 10 times better?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Infinite Ryvius: A better Battlestar Galactica than Battlestar Galactica!
Blayne said it in a thread title, so you know it must be true. Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Yes but it is an anime, have I ever led someone astray before (regarding an anime)?
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
I imagine the acting isn't quite on the level of BSG.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
It's actually much better than BSG's acting, although I haven't watched the english dub, just the Japanese.
Anime has a huge range of emotion and Ryvius is definatly I must consider in my top ten of mature anime's, the voice actors do an excellent job at bringing across realistically what children in such a situation would act like in such a position.
So yes, I believe the acting in this anime to be at worst as good as BSG's to at best far superior to BSG's.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I think that is the Japanese promotional clip.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
Good trailer.
Whether the acting is equal to BSG or not, I'm afraid it probably won't make an equally good impression on me. Voice-acting in animation, especially foreign-language voice acting, never quite moves me the way humans in front of a camera are able to.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
If you like this anime Blayne, you should pick up Crest of the Stars and Banner of the Stars.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
It does actually look cool, but BSG still makes it look like Pokemon.
Anime doesn't nearly have the ability to express some of the complex emotions the actors are portraying in just that trailer, and if you deny that you're just fanboying.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Basically the gist is message board discussions have become driven by trolls to the point that any positive thinking about anything must automatically make you a 'fanboy' is a poisonous internet reenactment (or pervsion) of the fairness doctrine phenomenon that everyone has basically internalized to an extreme degree and it must end.
No discussion about anything really automatically have to be accompanied by backpeddling or reassurances that there's two equally valid points of view OR ELSE YOU ARE A FANBOY RAWR.
As such I can believe both fully and completely that anime does in fact convey the same complex emotions as the actors in any live action trailer, I've seen enough anime to state that this is fact without this needing to automatically make me a 'fanboy' and blind to the alternative.
For example, I also enjoyed battlestar galactica, but I also very much like Infinite Ryvius, possibly more as I finished watching it just now after 2 days and BSG was like 2 years ago.
I'll concede that it varies between studio to studio, show to show, seiyu to seiyu and some can seem fairly flat like Starship Operators (although I'ld still state that it is the most scientifically accurate scifi show in existances and is worth watching that 13 episode series for that reason alone) however anime can show astounding amounts of complex emotions, I'ld put Infinite Ryvius and notably the final episode of Katanagatari as exceptional examples of the actors giving it their all and succeeding.
At the very least though I can state that if you are at least able to enjoy some animeandlike battlestar galactica for all the reasons that made it goodthan [u]you would most assuredly at least enjoy Infinite Ryvius[/u].
@Geraine I have them bookmarked, they're downloading but I space out my anime watching so its Serious!Anime followed by Cute/Silly!Anime etc so I don't burn out.
Watched the first episode of Legend of the Galactica Heroes, not a fan of the art but it looks promising; Also finished recently The Irresponsible Captain Tylor which was enjoyable.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
That video was so f*cking annoying. It's dealing with an interpretation that I think is only used by pretty juvenile people so I think it's pointless.
Fanboying to me means someone is attached to something to a point where they can no longer recognise its faults. This seems to happen to you a lot, Blayne, though I admit you're getting a lot better at approaching the things you obsess about in a more reasoned and objective way.
Cartoon drawings will likely always lack the subtlety and range of emotions that the human face is able to portray. This to me just seems logical, and to claim a cartoon could possibly be better than high quality acting, which is what you suggested, seems ridiculous.
If you've seen The Pursuit of Happyness, then watch this clip from about 1:50. (If you haven't seen the movie then don't watch the clip, it's one of the last bits)
I don't know how you could possibly get a cartoon to capture the subtle shifts in Smith's face, so much emotion is translated with very little movement.
That's not to say that anime and cartoon don't have their own advantages. Probably the best possible way the Infinite Ryvius story could be told through visual means would be as an anime, because then it doesn't have to use child actors.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote: Cartoon drawings will likely always lack the subtlety and range of emotions that the human face is able to portray. This to me just seems logical, and to claim a cartoon could possibly be better than high quality acting, which is what you suggested, seems ridiculous.
Anime works via abstractions, the image presents a picture that your brain fills in the remaining details this brings more interaction from the viewer, concededly this would depend upon the effort put in by the studio, but every subtle shift in expression on Smith's face I have seen done in good, well animated animes with high budgets just fine.
And you pretty much prove my point even if you missed the forest for the trees yourself, infinite ryvius, as an anime completely outdoes any western live action film equivalent by being able to employ animated children played by older actors and thus tell the story much better and more maturely than any western live action film could possibly do.
Which is probably why Ender's Game will either never be made as a film or will probably suck as a film because they would have to deal with all the restraints employing real life children of varying acting quality would create.
What I must ask though is what Animes have you watched? Have you seen any and if so which ones? You aren't sounding like you've been exposed to very many.
I feel that sure, maybe some people may not get or feel as much from an animated show or movie as well as they could from live action; but to see that objectively an animated film can never match (as you imply) or be superior to an equivalent film in live action in terms of visual acting I feel isn't true.
So to summarize;
1. Yes anime can match the subtle expressions Smith showed, I've seen quite a few that were able to do so just fine, Infinite Ryvius and Bakemonogatari, Clannad as well probably from the few scenes I've seen.
2. Thus this counters the assumption 'cartoons' will 'always lack', I've never to my knowledge been 'restricted' in what visual emotions an anime could get across when the budget and quality were put behind it, and is thus not ridiculous.
3. An anime with the advantages of you noted would precisely be able to provide better emotion and acting then a live action movie precisely because of how they can animate the actors and not have to narrow down the field of finding actors of the right age/race/etc, just need someone who can vocally act supremely well.
Preciously a situation where an anime can outdo live action, and if it can do it for that situation it is logical then to assume it can do it for others as well.
As such an well funded, well produced, well animated anime with good voice actors can at least be comparable or equal a live action show in acting quality and what kinds of emotion they can display.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
People who think they can say its well acted when its in a language they dont speak are freaking stupid.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
This show looks slick though.
Also everyone watch Baccano. It's basically watch the anime Quentin Tarantino would've made.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
This show looks slick though.
Also everyone watch Baccano
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: People who think they can say its well acted when its in a language they dont speak are freaking stupid.
It's possible in live-action films. For instance, it's obvious from this scene in Hero that Tony Leung is an amazing actor:
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: People who think they can say its well acted when its in a language they dont speak are freaking stupid.
What makes you think needing to be fluent is a requirement to be able to appreciate good acting? Or suppose that their acting is just so good that it transcends the language barrier?
Tone really amounts for just about everything really, you have the visual cues, and you have usually decent woolseyism translations as subtitles, what truly makes it so that you have to speak a foreign language to enjoy the acting?
I mean, when Aya Hirano speaks, as either Kaoru or Haruhi Suzumiya, she does so with a great deal of spirit and energy that is easily seen.
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
I've seen neither BSG nor Infinite Ryvius, but I would agree that it's possible for animation to convey just as strong of emotion and be as subtle as live-action performances. Animation is a medium, not a genre and like with all mediums it has its great works and its abominations. Yeah, there are plenty of animations (and anime) that are pretty bland and fail to capture the subtlety of a performance like Will Smith's in the Pursuit of Happyness. Then again, you also have live action actors like Schwarzenegger who are about as subtle as an anvil.
But to say its impossible (Or "will likely [never be possible]") for the medium to capture that subtlety is a bit much.
*Also, having listened to both dubs and subs of a couple anime, I can certainly vouch that it's possible to tell when foreign language actors are doing a good job. At least, relative to their dubbing counterparts. I think it'll be impossible for me to purge my memory of the second dub to Rurouni Kenshin. Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I think it's legitimate to say that the acting in a Pixar movie is better than the average saturday morning cartoon, and you can tell this without understanding what's being said. But in this case, the facial expressions are pretty generic, so I don't see how you're supposed to be able to judge.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
How are they generic and compared to what? I think your confusing or conflating art style as being somehow the same as animated to show emotion, you don't have to have completely anatomically realistic art style to get across more emotion or expressions.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Basically the gist is message board discussions have become driven by trolls to the point that any positive thinking about anything must automatically make you a 'fanboy' is a poisonous internet reenactment (or pervsion) of the fairness doctrine phenomenon that everyone has basically internalized to an extreme degree and it must end.
You often get told that you're going fanboy, but it really is because you get fanatical about stuff and champion it far beyond the point of reasonably being able to interpret its weaknesses or general appeal.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: How are they generic and compared to what? I think your confusing or conflating art style as being somehow the same as animated to show emotion, you don't have to have completely anatomically realistic art style to get across more emotion or expressions.
Pixar and Disney aren't anatomically realistic. But their faces are highly expressive, with lots of subtleties that convey a wide range of emotions. The facial expressions in the videos you linked aren't bad, but they aren't nearly at a point where their acting can be remotely compared to Battlestar Galactica.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Basically the gist is message board discussions have become driven by trolls to the point that any positive thinking about anything must automatically make you a 'fanboy' is a poisonous internet reenactment (or pervsion) of the fairness doctrine phenomenon that everyone has basically internalized to an extreme degree and it must end.
You often get told that you're going fanboy, but it really is because you get fanatical about stuff and champion it far beyond the point of reasonably being able to interpret its weaknesses or general appeal.
And those people and especially you are often wrong.
How about actually formulate a relevant opinion to any of the relevant topics at hand or go troll somewhere else.
quote: Pixar and Disney aren't anatomically realistic. But their faces are highly expressive, with lots of subtleties that convey a wide range of emotions. The facial expressions in the videos you linked aren't bad, but they aren't nearly at a point where their acting can be remotely compared to Battlestar Galactica
Which is only a few minutes out of hours of footage, you can't make an accurate judgement from just that; also we're not judging acting ability from solely facial expressions, but also voice acting, characterization, how well you feel the "umpth" of the performance; Do the characters feel real to you? Do their reactions seem like someone in their position would react and are they faithfully bringing that across?
To say that an animated medium cannot do the above as well as real life is wrong; you can get just as good acting from all of the relevant senses from anime as you can from live action.
Trying to pin it all on one single facet, a somewhat subjective YMMV facet at that I feel is fairly dishonest or at best an indication of bias.
Also, you never addressed the point of what you meant was 'generic' what are you comparing it to, to what; once more I am certain you are conflating art style with something very much different. What emotion in anime can be displayed is not attached to what art style it uses and I would also object that Pixar movies are generally very realistic and anatomically correct aside from a few 'suspension of disbelief' exceptions like giving faces to fish or cars.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Lets go over this again:
quote:I think it's legitimate to say that the acting in a Pixar movie is better than the average saturday morning cartoon
Firstly this statement is misleading, on one hand a Pixar movie is a big budget affair involving millions of dollars, the average saturday morning cartoon is not, and very rarely 'alot' of money.
Secondly Anime in Japan are *not* our equivalent of saturday morning cartoons; 'anime' is an umbrella term that applies to ALL animated mediums including CGI and ALL demographics; demographic based terminology is termed by: Shonen, Shojo, Seinen, josei, Kodomomuke, and mina.
Thus only Shonen and Shojo are "saturday morning cartoon" category and even sometimes they get big budget such as Gurren Lagann.
It's thus a false comparison, I could saw the average Star Wars movie is more entertaining than the average Star Trek episode and it would be just as unfair to make.
quote:and you can tell this without understanding what's being said. But in this case, the facial expressions are pretty generic, so I don't see how you're supposed to be able to judge.
Now lets me more detailed here, there are *lots* of variation in facial expressions in anime, and because they are visual rather than verbal its easy once you've gotten a passing experience watching anime to properly tell the anime exclusive ones apart to not only tell them apart but easily make the connection the emotional state of the character and determine if they should correctly have that expression.
Thus good acting in anime is a combination of good animation, good ambiant sound or a good BGM, lighting, and good voice acting.
Just like it is for live action.
So now we're left with the only difference between live action and animation is that in animation characters show their visual expressions via a animated/drawn format while real people do it through real expressions--However!
What this only means is that how the expressions are made are different but when there's no actual difference in quality between big budget animes and any decently acted live action movie or show this means that yes in fact logically speaking any quality anime is JUST as well acted as any quality show.
With the language barrier and the fact that it is animated having no bearing on this.
The key sentence here is "how you could be able to tell" I can tell, I love Infinite Ryvius precisely because I could tell and so can anyone else who regularly watches anime.
A factor i already contemplated and addressed earlier, some people do not get the same emotional effect from anime as they would a live action production; but this doesn't change the fact that many people do get this just fine.
So objectively speaking at the very least an anime can be just as well acted as a live action show with the caveat of course that not everyone can get the same impact from an anime as a film or tv show due to having to internalize a wholly different way of watching tv (watching subtitles and having to deal with massive cultural differences and standards of humor etc).
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
If I didnt speak English I might be tricked into thinking that Sam Jackson is the best actor ever and that Daniel Craig sucks.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
That's completely 100% supposition with no basis in reality. You are presuming it with nothing to support it other than your own bias.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
What?
Whatever dude, so are you if you think you can precisely compare the quality of acting to anything. Honestly, it probably is good; I can give it the benefit of the doubt because Japan takes a lot anime relatively seriously (but some of it actually are pretty much saturday cartoons). But honestly, I dont care. But comparing it to BSG and thinking you understand well enough to say it's much better is pretty dumb.
(And Daniel Craig rules. Not an opinion.)
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Basically the gist is message board discussions have become driven by trolls to the point that any positive thinking about anything must automatically make you a 'fanboy' is a poisonous internet reenactment (or pervsion) of the fairness doctrine phenomenon that everyone has basically internalized to an extreme degree and it must end.
You often get told that you're going fanboy, but it really is because you get fanatical about stuff and champion it far beyond the point of reasonably being able to interpret its weaknesses or general appeal.
And those people and especially you are often wrong.
How about actually formulate a relevant opinion to any of the relevant topics at hand or go troll somewhere else.
1. This is a relevant opinion. It has to do with the way you do legitimately act fervent and even honestly ridiculous on subjects like this, and why that ends up being called 'going fanboy.' What's even more important is that even when people respectfully disagree (as they most often do on hatrack!) you drive the issue harder and more flippantly and get surprisingly rude and dismissive of opinions which are even really just 'I don't think that <X> is as wholly awesome as you think it is.'
2. I'm not trolling, and pretty much the last ten times you've waved me off as a troll, it's not been true. So, you can drop that one.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Destineer:
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: People who think they can say its well acted when its in a language they dont speak are freaking stupid.
It's possible in live-action films. For instance, it's obvious from this scene in Hero that Tony Leung is an amazing actor:
He definitely is, in general as well. (I would additionally say that Maggie Cheung is every bit his equal, if not moreso, although it is not obvious from Hero).
The two actors are significant for two other reasons in this thread. First, thats not Tony Leung you're hearing. He was dubbed for the Mandarin track because his Mandarin wasn't standard enough for the mainland government. Second, the business reality of filming for Hong Kong actors (such as those two) are that many films are filmed in multiple unintelligible languages on set, which makes the assertion that one can't determine good acting in a different language rather dubious.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Mainly talking about anime.
I liked the acting in Thirst.
And the second point doesnt assert anything.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Its part of the job of a director to get and identify good acting from their actors. But many directors have still done very well with little fluency in the languages of their actors. It just works.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Anime works via abstractions, the image presents a picture that your brain fills in the remaining details this brings more interaction from the viewer, concededly this would depend upon the effort put in by the studio, but every subtle shift in expression on Smith's face I have seen done in good, well animated animes with high budgets just fine.
Disagree.
quote:And you pretty much prove my point even if you missed the forest for the trees yourself, infinite ryvius, as an anime completely outdoes any western live action film equivalent by being able to employ animated children played by older actors and thus tell the story much better and more maturely than any western live action film could possibly do.
Huh? That's exactly what I said. That doesn't make the combination of voice acting and animation better than what live-action acting can do, it just means it was probably the best choice for that particular story.
quote:Which is probably why Ender's Game will either never be made as a film or will probably suck as a film because they would have to deal with all the restraints employing real life children of varying acting quality would create.
I've always thought EG should have been planned as a dark anime movie, to be honest.
quote:What I must ask though is what Animes have you watched? Have you seen any and if so which ones? You aren't sounding like you've been exposed to very many.
No, I guess I haven't really, apart from a few Miyazaki films which I liked, an episode here or there of shows like Cowboy Bebop, and some children's anime like DBZ when I was a kid.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Whatever just everyone watch baccano in whatever language, okay?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: What?
Whatever dude, so are you if you think you can precisely compare the quality of acting to anything. Honestly, it probably is good; I can give it the benefit of the doubt because Japan takes a lot anime relatively seriously (but some of it actually are pretty much saturday cartoons). But honestly, I dont care. But comparing it to BSG and thinking you understand well enough to say it's much better is pretty dumb.
(And Daniel Craig rules. Not an opinion.)
Your displaying astounding ignorance which compels me to ask if you really don't care about the subject then why are you arguing it?
First of all I can accurately compare the acting because I've seen enough movies, tv shows, and anime to make the comparisons between the two, and been among the community of people with significant overlap between film geeks and anime geeks to know that theres significant consensus that one can indeed determine good acting from a foreign film or series even if you can't understand the language.
Second of all I can say it is in some ways better than Battlestar Galactica because the story for what it does for the elements it shares with Battlestar I believe are arguably better but you can't disprove this until you actually watch the show, arguing "nah uh" isn't going to go anywhere.
quote: I can give it the benefit of the doubt because Japan takes a lot anime relatively seriously (but some of it actually are pretty much saturday cartoons).
And some movies in the West is porn or aimed at kids doesn't detract from movie making in the west as a serious medium, so thus how is it that some Japanese animes being their equivilent of our saturday morning cartoons somehow magically detract from the medium as a whole as being a serious entertainment and story telling medium that can mploy great actors?
quote: 1. This is a relevant opinion. It has to do with the way you do legitimately act fervent and even honestly ridiculous on subjects like this, and why that ends up being called 'going fanboy.' What's even more important is that even when people respectfully disagree (as they most often do on hatrack!) you drive the issue harder and more flippantly and get surprisingly rude and dismissive of opinions which are even really just 'I don't think that <X> is as wholly awesome as you think it is.'
"If you believe X than you MUST be a fanboy" is precisely the garbage that has to stop, it doesn't matter of what your knee jerk impression of me is if you can't actually argue the facts that you have to resort to "going fanboy" as the only possible solution to attack the man instead of the argument it is GARBAGE and has no place in this discussion and you should know better.
quote: 2. I'm not trolling, and pretty much the last ten times you've waved me off as a troll, it's not been true. So, you can drop that one.
You are trolling, this is the definition of trolling, rather then enter the thread for constructive debate on either the merits of Infinite Ryvius or the argument of can anime employ acting as good as a western show you choose instead to nitpick over key words of "Blayne" and "fanboy" and pretty much ignore the main topic of conversation.
So retreat gracefully as you are almost certainly in the wrong.
Also I'm pretty sure you were contacted by the Moderator to knock it off which would in fact classify what you do at the very least as counter productive and not constructive, which is fairly close to the definition of trolling.
quote: Disagree.
Can you disprove this though? I can think of at least three anime's off the top of my head with as subtle character interactions as the clip you provided.
Which puts this squarely in the "for some people it is just as good, some people not as good, YMMV" category.
quote: Huh? That's exactly what I said. That doesn't make the combination of voice acting and animation better than what live-action acting can do, it just means it was probably the best choice for that particular story.
Nope, it means that because there is precisely at least one situation where animation clearly trumps live action in acting quality there is logically certainly others and also logically compelling to state that there is certainly many where the acting is on par and in parity with each other.
quote: No, I guess I haven't really, apart from a few Miyazaki films which I liked, an episode here or there of shows like Cowboy Bebop, and some children's anime like DBZ when I was a kid.
And this is where your argument falls flat, while certainly our experiences don't have to be equal for an objective discussion watching only so few makes it difficult to take your argument seriously that you've either 'never seen or do not believe that anime can meet the best live action acting talent' seriously.
I mean can you truly objectively say or state you can never see an anime as ever being able to meet the same quality of acting as some of the best live action? Or have it carry across the same emotion?
The answer is no.
quote: Mainly talking about anime.
Changing goal posts are we, you stated that "you are stupid if you think you could determine good acting by watching something in a foreign language" -paraphrasing; we clearly have an example of good foreign acting in HK films, sometimes in multiple languages, thus your only means of understanding or comprehension comes from subtitles like in Anime and yet many people can truly see good acting in such films.
If so then how does Anime not be able to get across the same point? That the voice actors playing their characters can't get across a good performance?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: Whatever just everyone watch baccano in whatever language, okay?
After I finished Durara.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Also while were on the topic of anime reccomendations everyone should watch "Wondering Son" or otherwise known as Hourou Musuko, pretty much the only serious mature look at LBGT issues I've ever seen in anime.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Nope, it means that because there is precisely at least one situation where animation clearly trumps live action in acting quality there is logically certainly others and also logically compelling to state that there is certainly many where the acting is on par and in parity with each other.
I'm not saying animation and voice acting can't be very good, and easily superior to live-action acting done by children, I'm saying the best of anime can't compete with the best of real acting.
quote:And this is where your argument falls flat, while certainly our experiences don't have to be equal for an objective discussion watching only so few makes it difficult to take your argument seriously that you've either 'never seen or do not believe that anime can meet the best live action acting talent' seriously.
I mean can you truly objectively say or state you can never see an anime as ever being able to meet the same quality of acting as some of the best live action? Or have it carry across the same emotion?
The answer is no.
Yea, I think it will always fall slightly short of what a real actor is capable of doing.
But, I'd loved to be proved wrong with a clip of some excellent anime acting if you want to share.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote: I'm saying the best of anime can't compete with the best of real acting.
But it can, and if you've only seen a few and not nessasarily the best how can you make this statement?
It's like when Ebert said Video Games can never be considered art when he's never touched a video game before.
I don't keep clips, I keep full episodes which would be difficult to share online, instead you should watch a few highly reccomended serieses.
Infinite Ryvius Housou Musuko (Wandering Son, its on crunchy roll) Angel Beats! Katanagatari (especially episode 12) Bakemonogatari Haruhi Suzumiya
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Just as a piece of constructive criticism for persuasiveness: 'watch a few whole series of anime shows' is not likely to prove very effective.
Anyway, Blayne, I think you might want to consider that some of your biases are substantially coloring your ability to be objective here. Youtube link to the first episode.
I'm not going to watch the entire series. That's just an unreasonable request to make before participating in a discussion, but what I can say is that it seems like a very different kind of show than Battlestar Galactica, for one thing, so I don't understand the comparison.
Two, while it is possible for anime to reach really high levels of expression when the voice acting, music, and animation are all individually outstanding and blended together very well, to my mind, this isn't a sample of either individual or blended really outstanding quality. Just ain't, that's all. No shame in that. Please parse that statement carefully, because what it says is that I don't think it's an example of outstanding-level quality on those four important areas. Not that it's a bad show, just that your evaluation seems suspect, biased, premature, and based on flawed comparisons. Where in BSG, for example, are the 'coming of age' stories?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Maybe the whole bit that you have a motly ad hoc crew of desperate people on the run from people who are out to destroy them, who refuse to communicate with you, while you have limited supplies and a dysfunctional political and social enviroment?
Just because one series focuses more on coming of age stories doesn't mean it somehow automatically lacks significant points of comparison and similarities with BSG.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Maybe the whole bit that you have a motly ad hoc crew of desperate people on the run from people who are out to destroy them, who refuse to communicate with you, while you have limited supplies and a dysfunctional political and social enviroment?
Except that was only a part of the show, particularly as time went on. Very early in the series, the Cylon aspects started to play a more prominent role in the entire thing.
quote:Just because one series focuses more on coming of age stories doesn't mean it somehow automatically lacks significant points of comparison and similarities with BSG.
...yes, Blayne, I know. Please, tell me where I suggested otherwise. What I did was reject the suggestion that Infinite Ryvius is a 'better BSG' because, by the description you included in the OP yourself, it seems to be a radically different story with some similar elements and themes. I see nothing about religion, myth, or aliens in your description for example. Some of the larger elements in BSG, and the description says '486 children of various ages' when you can count on literally one hand the number of children in BSG.
I also note you don't address the other parts of my post.
This is - constructive criticism again here - part of why many of your threads get derailed, Blayne. You're clearly very taken with the show. Good for you. That, in and of itself, doesn't mean it's 'better' than BSG-that's a matter of opinion, of course. It certainly doesn't mean it's a better BSG than BSG, which is less a matter of opinion, because for that to be true it would need to be telling a story that's pretty close to the BSG story, perhaps not one that radically diverges in some major areas.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by Destineer:
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: People who think they can say its well acted when its in a language they dont speak are freaking stupid.
It's possible in live-action films. For instance, it's obvious from this scene in Hero that Tony Leung is an amazing actor:
He definitely is, in general as well. (I would additionally say that Maggie Cheung is every bit his equal, if not moreso, although it is not obvious from Hero).
Oh, she has some great moments in Hero. Like when he's dying and she cries.
But yeah, those two are unbelievable in general. In The Mood For Love, man. There's no topping that.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote: I'm saying the best of anime can't compete with the best of real acting.
But it can, and if you've only seen a few and not nessasarily the best how can you make this statement?
It's like when Ebert said Video Games can never be considered art when he's never touched a video game before.
I don't keep clips, I keep full episodes which would be difficult to share online, instead you should watch a few highly reccomended serieses.
Infinite Ryvius Housou Musuko (Wandering Son, its on crunchy roll) Angel Beats! Katanagatari (especially episode 12) Bakemonogatari Haruhi Suzumiya
Blayne, there's a lot of good work that's been done in anime. But you can't seriously be saying that there are animes with acting that matches the best acting in the best live-action films.
Think of the acting in Five Easy Pieces, The Godfather, Taxi Driver, There Will Be Blood.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: Whatever just everyone watch baccano in whatever language, okay?
After I finished Durara.
Baccano! is better.
And I said I didnt care because I dont watch subs generally so I dont care if they're good.
I cared about what you said because of what it was based off of. Whatever. Who cares. Just watch Baccano!
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
This thread is now about Baccano! It's a better Pulp Fiction than Pulp Fiction! Whatever.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Okay, I just read Blayne's whole post. And by read, I mean, I read a little more than scrolled down and saw how long it was.
Oh my god.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I will say that there are anime films that I find to be as good as live-action films, classics on the level you've mentioned, Destineer. To my tastes, at least. But I arrive at that not least by personal peculiarities of taste, and by carefully considering the entire package. Also because the kinds of stories told in an animated film format are often different than live-action.
But based strictly on acting? No, I will agree that there are very, very, very few if examples of the best animated acting that can measure up to the best live action acting. And how could they? They're different experiences, very different. It would be like insisting that a painting is just as good, or better, than a photograph.
You can't get the degree of real human nuance out of animation that you can out of live action. You simply can't. What you can get, though, is something different, evoking those same emotions.
ETA: Actually, umberhulk, you're evoking what might be called around these parts some classic Blayne posting styles right now.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
If anyone wants to see an anime which will REALLY get you feeling some emotion, watch Wolf's Rain. Even my wife, who in general hates animation, cried at the end of that series.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
And I'm gonna say what Blayne's line about BSG is pretty reasonable. Especially, since it was basically just an attention getter.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: Especially, since it was basically just an attention getter.
Yeah, but look at the attention that it always earns.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I mean, the show sounds similar enough to BSG to warrant saying "If you like BSG, chances are that you'll like this." The thread title doesnt make me infer that it's a clone/variant or anything. They're just similar.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote: What I did was reject the suggestion that Infinite Ryvius is a 'better BSG' because, by the description you included in the OP yourself, it seems to be a radically different story with some similar elements and themes. I see nothing about religion, myth, or aliens in your description for example. Some of the larger elements in BSG, and the description says '486 children of various ages' when you can count on literally one hand the number of children in BSG.
Because those elements of BSG is where it essentially jumped the Shark and dilluted the show and locked into a weirdness cycle of where it could only maintain ratings by just jumping over more sharks in an even more outlandish way than the last into you were left wonder when did the sharks start driving motorcycles jumping over microcosms.
Not that BSG even then was 'bad' but it just got more disappointing and kept trying to tackle more and more themes and just ending up average overall and finally ending with a whimper of where nothing was truly solved or resolved, the only saving grace that thank god it didn't decide to repeat Battlestar 1980.
Infinite Ryvius sticks to basically the core elements that I liked in BSG and worked on fleshing and elaborating on those never straying from that path and thus giving a far more satisfactory experience when it did finally resolve.
Looking for example for an analogy from the latest Extra Credits regarding story structure here's my take:
Ryvius has your basic three act structure, Act 1, when you show the characters and their normal lives, where you introduce them and their characterizations and the basic setting; then it all gets destroyed and the basic underlying question is raised, the call to action.
Act 2 is spent with nothing trying to get the tools to answer that question, where multiple events can happen within quick succession with great action and pacing.
Finally Act 3, the Question is resolved, the action finally ended, the quest that was begun is finally over and all the loose ends tidied up.
Infinite Ryvius excellent story telling keeps these clearly in its vision resulting in a cleanly told consistent story that goes through each act changing acts subtly but unquestionably in the eyes of a keen viewer and ends wonderfully.
Battlestar just ping pongs, like you have the 3 act structure interspaced randomly with separate structures from entirely other structures! Madness. The situation just gets more and more complex with the writers making up more and more stuff to add onto it, every question answered just gets a dozen more questions contrively written into it.
BSG would have been a considerably more consistent show had they kept focus on the military-survival aspects and had a clear ending planned from the start based on resolving that, my suggestion would have been finding the actual Earth but in our near-future and they allying up to defeat and push back the Cylons in a final properly done myth arc.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I mean, the show sounds similar enough to BSG to warrant saying "If you like BSG, chances are that you'll like this." The thread title doesnt make me infer that it's a clone/variant or anything. They're just similar.
Which wasn't really the premise of the OP.
------------
quote:Because those elements of BSG is where it essentially jumped the Shark and dilluted the show and locked into a weirdness cycle of where it could only maintain ratings by just jumping over more sharks in an even more outlandish way than the last into you were left wonder when did the sharks start driving motorcycles jumping over microcosms.
I wasn't aware we were going to be treating your opinion as fact, Blayne. Many of the fans felt that some of the Cylon, myth, and religion elements were really quite well done, though.
quote: Not that BSG even then was 'bad' but it just got more disappointing and kept trying to tackle more and more themes and just ending up average overall and finally ending with a whimper of where nothing was truly solved or resolved, the only saving grace that thank god it didn't decide to repeat Battlestar 1980.
This is just factually inaccurate. You may not have liked how things were resolved, but they were resolved.
quote: Infinite Ryvius sticks to basically the core elements that I liked in BSG and worked on fleshing and elaborating on those never straying from that path and thus giving a far more satisfactory experience when it did finally resolve.
Now we're (finally) getting somewhere. You're saying that Infinite Ryvius tells the kind of story BSG should have told?
quote:Infinite Ryvius excellent story telling keeps these clearly in its vision resulting in a cleanly told consistent story that goes through each act changing acts subtly but unquestionably in the eyes of a keen viewer and ends wonderfully.
Battlestar just ping pongs, like you have the 3 act structure interspaced randomly with separate structures from entirely other structures! Madness. The situation just gets more and more complex with the writers making up more and more stuff to add onto it, every question answered just gets a dozen more questions contrively written into it.
BSG would have been a considerably more consistent show had they kept focus on the military-survival aspects and had a clear ending planned from the start based on resolving that, my suggestion would have been finding the actual Earth but in our near-future and they allying up to defeat and push back the Cylons in a final properly done myth arc.
Blayne, none of this has anything to do with the acting of live-action vs. animation, one of the central questions at hand, remember?
As for your suggested ending, well, I have to say that from this fan's perspective, that suggestion seems really bad. It's self-insertion, smacking of fanfiction (Hey, it's us, Earth!), and it wraps up everything in a neat and tidy bow, which for complicated human storytelling just isn't very realistic.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
It's a thread title on the internet, man.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I actually agree with Blayne about BSG's plot. So if there's a series that tells a similar story without those issues, and is already complete, I'm interested. But yeah, it's a completely different point than the acting.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I will agree that the show went off the reservation more than once in proportion to its explorations of those plots, but I disagree to the extent that he discusses it, and I frankly wonder if he would be as adamant about it if there weren't an animated series being held up next to it.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Well I've never had the desire to rewatch BSG while I've did have the desire to rewatch babylon 5 or some of the Trek movies.
quote: As for your suggested ending, well, I have to say that from this fan's perspective, that suggestion seems really bad. It's self-insertion, smacking of fanfiction (Hey, it's us, Earth!), and it wraps up everything in a neat and tidy bow, which for complicated human storytelling just isn't very realistic.
A proper writing staff could make it work, and while I would say that what they did do in BSG was "well written" on its own but in comparison to the plot as a whole it just went as it is medically known as snoopy-loopy or as its known elsewhere underwent "Indigo Prophecy Syndrome"
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I rewatch the first two seasons of BSG and the beginning and end of 3.
Most of the other stuff was just worth watching once.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
A proper writing staff simply wouldn't do it, Blayne, or at least I have difficulty imagining them doing it. Injecting a near-future real-world Earth into the BSG universe would fly directly in the face of much of the entire series. It'd be silly.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
And yet they did just that with Caprica.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
...which is a) a different series, b) not taking place in the spot in the story you suggested earlier, and c) I haven't started the second season yet but unless I'm very mistaken, it's not a near-future real-world Earth at all in Caprica.
Blayne, exactly how often in storytelling do you see, right near the end, the good guys who are on the verge of being wiped out, encounter a previously completely unexpected bunch of allies that help them handily overwhelm their enemies letting them live happily ever after? How often in good storytelling that's not to be encountered in fanfiction or 'wouldn't it be cool if...' style storytelling?
Not very often.
Posted by manji (Member # 11600) on :
I don't see how an animation can possibly compare to live action.
Watch a closeup shot of a human being. There is movement. Constant movement. You can see something happening, thoughts being formed, words coming to the tip of tongue, eyes glancing, shining, noses quirking, throats clearing, et cetera. A lot of these are involuntary actions on the part of the actor. A good actor makes it all come together to make it work.
For computer animation, all those movements are planned and mimicked and artificial. It's close, but it's not the real thing.
For traditional animation, capturing that "life" is not even an option, except for really big budget productions, and even then, on an extremely minuscule scale.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by manji: I don't see how an animation can possibly compare to live action.
It can, but this won't. This particular form of animation is used for the sake of economy, making significant use of one-frame pans and cycle-stuttering basic visual sequence tropes (envision watching an anime where you see a person who is being animated in two frames, to make him 'grimace' with sweat beads — think of how common this is) as well as long stretches of animated time where little or nothing is actually being animated besides mouths.
But, this anime aside, well-done works that are really spending the care and budget necessary (see: pixar) can easily be said to 'compare' to live action. Even surpass a lot of it, if not all of it.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
This is dumb. It works both ways. You cant animate something as well as Pitt's performance in Jesse James.
But you cant do ed from Cowboy Bebop in live action either.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
And you need to tell stories about advanced canines in spaceships how often, exactly? Not exactly a very good comparison for your case.
Samprimary's point, and mine, and the point others are making, is that while animated acting can* equal live action, as it's actually done it usually doesn't. He goes into more detail as to why, and people who are actually recommending series to watch with fervency know those technical details are pretty accurate.
*I'm not personally sold that the acting on its own in an animated feature can be just as high quality as live-action, but I am sold that it can be so good that it comes to the point where it's too close to tell the difference clearly between two different stories.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
That was sort of lazy, but it's not just that. You can exagerate certain expressions in anime because of emphasized feature so it just has a charm, so between anime and live action character, I dont really care.
And there's also guys like that fat insane with guy with the cane, the chick from FLCL, Rail Tracer, whatever.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)