Due to how well a debate(?) about this was going in another topic I decide to drag that tangent over to its own topic so it can be discussed through and through.
As I stand, I believe brutal honesty is just as effective (and may not be considered as nice) as sugar coating the truth.
I also believe both of these methods of persuasion do not always have the desired effect that a person assumes.
( I would also like to point out my brutal honesty isn't just saying what the problem is at hand, I also use metaphors and sarcasm as my medium to make the truth easier to understand(and I also do it, because I can't control it /: ))
- I need some examples /: I'm too lazy to type some and I am pressed for time, my breaks are only 10 minutes every hour... from 45 to 55 on de-clock.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Everybody lies. Even House.
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
Yes on occasion I do to save my own behind, but I mean lying to other people to make them feel better or to get them to do something, which I don't lie about XD
[ November 10, 2010, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Rawrain ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I think rudeness is morally neutral. Depending on the situation, it may be more or less effective.
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
Rude is to be interpretted by the individual, for me it's rude to sugar coat opinions about me, rather than just saying flat out, what is meant.
It's simpler to understand, and simpler to say, so it's actually easier to be brutal.
Posted by shadowland (Member # 12366) on :
What do you think is gained from being 'brutally' honest rather than merely being honest?
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
Preventing confusion between what is said and what is meant and it is easier on the speaker and interpreter.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
Truth and "honesty" are subjective. Sure, there are absolute truths (the sky is blue, clouds are comprised of water vapor), but it is usually only beneficial to lie about subjective truths (unless you're talking about full-on deceipt).
There are many perspectives with which you can look on "honesty". Most subjective lies are true within a certain point of view. The key is to be honest to a perspective that is advantageous to the situation and to ensure that you can explain any discrepencies that arise.
Social engineering aside, "brutal honesty" is just an arrogant way of saying that your opinion of a situation is superior to any other interpretations.
Posted by shadowland (Member # 12366) on :
Do you think the brutal part, whatever that means, is necessary in order to communicate clearly and effectively?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: ... I mean lying to other people to make them feel better or to get them to do something ...
I doubt this. You're never lied about a gift you've received? You've never lied about having "read and understand all the rights and restrictions described in the license terms" before installing software?
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
quote:Originally posted by shadowland: Do you think the brutal part, whatever that means, is necessary in order to communicate clearly and effectively?
Saying what you mean, not what the person(s) you're speaking to want to hear.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
If by sugar-coating we are talking about telling the truth but in a very positive light, then I think sugar-coating is often more honest than being brutally frank. That's because you also have to take into account the emotional implications of what you are saying - meaning the inferences made by the person you are talking to in response to what you say (and in response to their natural emotional reaction to what you say.)
For instance, let's say we are talking to an author and we say "Your latest book was absolutely terrible." The author's reaction to this might be think you are also implying you think he is a terrible author, or even a terrible person. It may be taken as an insult even if no insult is really implied. If all you are saying is that you don't like that one particular book, then you'd be better off sugar-coating the answer a bit - "Your latest book wasn't your best." The author knows that this implies you didn't like his book, but also knows you are suggesting he has good books too.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
I think that you can be honest and sensitive to the other person's state of mind simultaneously. If you're too lazy to be sensitive, then you're just shooting yourself in the foot by being honest, because human nature is to put up all defense mechanisms, even when the other person is "just being honest."
Sensitivity to the other person's state of mind, if looked at from a cold and rational eye, is simply a strategic Trojan horse, to sneak past the other person's defense mechanisms to a place where your truths will actually be heard.
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
My cousin cares about her appearance more than she needs to, this I told her and she gets it but she still persists to ask me how she looks I tell her like I see it and she accepts it as it is, an opinion.
Another instance is when my friend have things stuck in their teeth, I tell them flat out something is stuck in there, of course you either tell them or not, but I would much rather have them pick it out then than have it sit in their teeth all day having them embarrass themselves unknowingly.
True as it is I don't much care about other peoples feelings, this is why I am hated so ):
Posted by Ryoko (Member # 4947) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: Another instance is when my friend have things stuck in their teeth, I tell them flat out something is stuck in there, of course you either tell them or not, but I would much rather have them pick it out then than have it sit in their teeth all day having them embarrass themselves unknowingly.
True as it is I don't much care about other peoples feelings, this is why I am hated so ):
You seem to care about your friend's feelings. Otherwise, you wouldn't have told him about something being stuck in his teeth.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:True as it is I don't much care about other peoples feelings, this is why I am hated so ):
Not caring about feelings will make it hard to communicate, though, because the other person's feelings will alter the message they are getting from you if you don't account for those feelings.
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
Treat others the way you wanted to be treated ne'?
Things stuck in teeth is gross; I don't mind others telling me I have something in my teeth, usually I am the only person that will say something so I do.
I don't "much" care about their feelings, for instance I won't hold back saying somethings in their teeth no matter who's around for any reason.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: True as it is I don't much care about other peoples feelings, this is why I am hated so ):
If you don't care about others' feelings, why should they -- or we -- care about yours?
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
You shouldn't!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Then why tell us you are hated? Why the sad face? Are not both requests for sympathy?
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
I'm hated because my intentions seem unclear to them because people usually assume I mean something else, so it always seems like I have an alterier motive or something .-.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
That was not my question.
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
I'm hated because I'm misunderstood, and peoples feelings don't stop me from saying most things when it is not appropriete(which is sometimes funny and sometimes the exact opposite). The sad face is to express emotion toward the statement. It's not I that decides if you care, that's all on you.
Posted by shadowland (Member # 12366) on :
So it would seem that not caring about the feelings of the people you consider to be friends has not in fact helped you to be able to communicate clearly and effectively, even to the people that would be in the best position to be able to understand you.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I must admit to having been tempted by the lure of the brutal honesty path. I generally find people who are honest in this manner, without ego or agenda, to be very comfortable and relaxing to be around. Maybe this is why I'm so comfortable with Aspies.
That said, I find it easier to get things done with 80% of the human population if I proceed with more care and attention than really comes naturally to me. If it didn't work, I wouldn't bother. But it does work, and I will not reject tact as a tool when it is unquestionably more useful to me than 'brutal honesty.' Pragmatism trumps minor annoyances, in my book. Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: True as it is I don't much care about other peoples feelings, this is why I am hated so ):
I'm really not surprised.
Human beings are by our very nature social animals. It is extremely difficulty for humans to be happy or even content without genuine friendships. I can not speak for everyone, but for me meaningful, loving relationships with other people are the most rewarding thing in life. To have a loving relationship with someone, you have to care about them. You have to care whether they are hurt, or pleased, or embarrassed or angry. You have to care about how they feel. By refusing to care about how other people feel, you are depriving yourself of one of the most important aspects of being human.
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
For people who understand me and get to know me, I am very nice and generous, but also very talkative and rude. Talkative confuses me, because I don't talk often but when I do it's hard to silence me- feel my wrath >;D
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
In my experience, you can safely replace "when you get to know me..." with "I'm too lazy or selfish to actually..." in most sentences.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
You said that brutal honesty is the most effective solution.
That depends on what effect you are looking to achieve.
Yes, it the effect is to stop from having to look at that gross thing hanging between someone's teeth, then being honest with them is the most effective.
Being brutally honest, however, implies that you tell this person that they have something stuck in their teeth, very loudly, in front of a lot of people, not in order to get it removed, but in order to look superior to others and to make that person look foolish. That is where the brutality comes from.
On the other hand, say Joe Shmoe is over weight. Brutal Honest Person would say, Joe--Your Fat! Lose weight or you will die.
Joe Shmoe will see that as an insult. He'll get defensive. He'll deny your advice and probably take an extra large bite of what ever he is eating.
Honest Man will say, "Joe, you've bulked up since we last met." He won't say that Joe looks good, but he won't antagonize him either. The result, Joe is more likely to follow Honest Man's advice for losing weight.
Before you can say what is the most effective solution you have to decide what effect you want. Telling the girl you want to date that "Man those pants make your backside look huge" is not going to be effective in getting you that date. Telling her that they don't flatter her gorgeous figure just might.
Some people use honesty as insults.
Some people fear honesty and react badly to it.
If you don't want to be mistaken for the former, and actually be effective with the latter, than some sugar coating is required.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:On the other hand, say Joe Shmoe is over weight. Brutal Honest Person would say, Joe--Your Fat! Lose weight or you will die.
I want to briefly point out that there is even a distinction to be made between saying "lose weight or you will die" and "if you are dangerously overweight and aren't willing to let the government control your food supply, you should kill yourself for our net benefit."
Posted by capaxinfiniti (Member # 12181) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: for instance I won't hold back saying somethings in their teeth no matter who's around for any reason.
this isnt brutal honesty in my opinion, its simple politeness. and i feel this example is trivial when considering the level of honesty one uses when expressing thoughts and opinions. brutal honesty: you have something in your teeth and you look like a complete moron. fact - stuff in teeth. this is objective. subjective - you look like a moron. it wouldnt be considered sugar coated if you didnt state your opinion.
another thing, discretion and honesty arent mutually exclusive. where you says something, the level of you voice and tone all communicate a lot to the person for which the words are intended.
ETA: what darth_mauve said. he said it first.
[ November 10, 2010, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: capaxinfiniti ]
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I think rudeness is morally neutral. Depending on the situation, it may be more or less effective.
How to you come to this, given that rudeness isn't an absolute, but differs on a case by case basis?
Isn't the assumption that being rude will hurt someone's feelings? And wouldn't intentionally hurting someone's feelings be bad?
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
Nah I would more along the lines of "Joe if you don't lose the weight you're going to end up in the hospital" all depends on how large Joe is aswell for people just slightly bigger than the average I encourage exercise and better eating... like coughing loudly when they grab for many unhealthy snacks... but even if Joe was grossly overweight exercise might actually cause him a heart attack or worse, better to start by eating better and exercising little bit before you start hopping into the heavy exercising.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
I think Rivka's comments to you, Rawrain, were the most interesting in this thread. You DO care how people feel about you, and while you probably are misunderstood, I would bet that you often misunderstand others.
You desire to be understood and loved, same as everyone else.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: It's not I that decides if you care, that's all on you.
I don't believe you. If you really didn't care, you wouldn't be posting. You want sympathy but are not willing to extend it to others.
Hopefully Tom is right and you will grow out of this.
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
It's not sympathy it's an intelligent arguement I want, which some are providing and you're trolling >_>
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Rivka, that troll.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Rivka, Rawrain doesn't appreciate your honest opinion of him, he would have preferred it if you could have said things a little nicer and taken account of his feelings.
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
Nah, I just prefer more on-topic-ness instead of trying to debunk what I mean from what I say.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by jebus202: Rivka, Rawrain doesn't appreciate your honest opinion of him, he would have preferred it if you could have said things a little nicer and taken account of his feelings.
Bingo!
(What does it mean when I agree with jebus? Is that a sign of the apocalypse?)
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: Nah, I just prefer more on-topic-ness instead of trying to debunk what I mean from what I say.
I'm pretty sure everyone who posted on this thread (aside from you) agrees with what Rivka said.
So now that you're faced with honesty, will you confront the REAL issue instead of using your own defense mechanisms of pretending feelings don't exist and operating purely on intellectual arguments? Because I think it's more intellectually honest to operate with a true read on the lay of the land and to admit to yourself that feelings and ego are an important part of dialogue and should be recognized as an element to be considered in conversation. Brutal honesty, under that assumption = incomplete communication.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by advice for robots: Rivka, that troll.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: My cousin cares about her appearance more than she needs to, this I told her and she gets it but she still persists to ask me how she looks I tell her like I see it and she accepts it as it is, an opinion.
Rivka is serving the same purpose here. Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
I'm more upset about wasted time, I have a girlfriend who gives me* all the attention I need .-.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: I'm more upset about wasted time, I have a girlfriend who gives me* all the attention I need .-.
Then why are you posting on a forum. Are you talking to us? Or to yourself?
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: My cousin cares about her appearance more than she needs to, this I told her and she gets it but she still persists to ask me how she looks I tell her like I see it and she accepts it as it is, an opinion.
Another instance is when my friend have things stuck in their teeth, I tell them flat out something is stuck in there, of course you either tell them or not, but I would much rather have them pick it out then than have it sit in their teeth all day having them embarrass themselves unknowingly.
True as it is I don't much care about other peoples feelings, this is why I am hated so ):
The real issue isn't that your "cousin cares about her appearance more than she needs to". This is your opinion. For you to tell her that in a "brutally honest" fashion is just you exhibiting judgemental behavior. The fact is that you are judging her according to the standards that YOU devise. From a certain perspective, you're acting superior and lording that superiority over her.
If you're going to make a judgement call on someone's behavior, you need to be sensitive. "In my opinion. . .", etc. Behavior is relative, after all.
Then again, if she was getting fat (like others are referencing), she would probably know it already. It would be both rude and pointless to point it out.
Posted by capaxinfiniti (Member # 12181) on :
rawrain, there are a number of people in this thread who are trying to impress upon you the importance of communication and civil dialogue and help you understand the nuances of social interaction. we realize this lesson was unsolicited but you would do well to at least consider what is being said. regardless of your aspirations in life communication is essential. if youre unpleasant to talk to you will find few people will want to talk to you. if youre ok with that, thats fine. but you did come here and are actively posting.. i think some on this forum have already dismissed you as quickly as you arrived. which is unfortunate but only if you understand why.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Isn't the assumption that being rude will hurt someone's feelings? And wouldn't intentionally hurting someone's feelings be bad?
Not necessarily. Or, rather, that might be the assumption, but it might be wrong -- and even if it's right, intentionally hurting someone might still be the least of a number of possible harms.
That said, choosing to potentially inflict harm when there is no possible gain to anyone by doing so is pretty difficult to justify.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Rawrain, You gave this thread the title "Morals behind Lies/Sugar Coating". I pretty sure every post in this thread is addressing that in some way.
Caring about other peoples feelings IS a moral imperative. A person who truly doesn't care about others feelings is, by definition, a sociopath.
Of course caring about others feelings isn't the only moral imperative and there are circumstances where you may need to hurt someones feelings to be ethical. But that isn't the same as not caring.
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
The big question is whether lying to make someone to make them feel better, a better choice then telling the truth and making them feel bad.
Posted by shadowland (Member # 12366) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: The big question is whether lying to make someone to make them feel better, a better choice then telling the truth and making them feel bad.
Why limit yourself to just those two options?
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
Because typing out all of the options would take forever, that at least casts a general idea.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: The big question is whether lying to make someone to make them feel better, a better choice then telling the truth and making them feel bad.
In this case, it's only better to tell the truth (and make them feel bad) if there's a good reason to.
Do you think it will change their behavior, or will it just make them feel bad? Will it harm your relationship? What do you gain by hurting them? What would you gain by lying or keeping quiet? Is it your place to be addressing or redressing their behavior / self-image / past choices? Are you doing it for you or for them?
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
For my girlfriend and family I would rather give them the real truth, I could tell them what they want to here, but that's not always what they need to hear...
Example: Trying to get tubby to exercise.
You can tell them that it's unhealthy and they need exercise.
You could ask them to go for walks without explaining to them what you're doing so tubby is becoming more active without knowing it.
You could tell tubby he looks fine the way he does and that he's healthier than a horse.
There are many ways to go about this, but I prefer the simple one, TUBBY GET YOUR ASS ON THAT TREADMILL AND EAT HEALTHY.
Of course if I was scary and intimidating this might work, I am not so me saying it is useless, but I still try. Tubby can be upset about what I said and do nothing, do nothing and not be upset, or at least give it an effort.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
Would it be your place to judge or tell them what to do?
Repeated behavior in that manner might constitute abuse.
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
It depends who they are to me, I don't just jump at strangers and tell them what they need to do, only people I am concerned for. (but this means I do care about people, yes in a small way I care about any nice person)
AS for anyone who wonders why I joined this forum, it was to talk about Ender and Shadow saga's, but that part of the forum is close to dead.
[ November 10, 2010, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Rawrain ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I prefer the simple one, TUBBY GET YOUR ASS ON THAT TREADMILL AND EAT HEALTHY.
Let me know if that ever works.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote:The big question is whether lying to make someone to make them feel better, a better choice then telling the truth and making them feel bad.
I thought the point was being brutally honest was "simpler to understand, and simpler to say, so it's actually easier to be brutal."
Out of all the reasons to be brutal I would think "clarity" would be pretty far down the list, making your communication style more confusing and less effective. If you are only concerned with how easy it is for YOU to communicate what's on your mind instead of how the message will be received, then I would chalk that up as another indicator of a young immature person or someone with sociopathic tendencies.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
In completely unrelated news, I can't get this song out of my head:
Dang it Dora! My kids don't even watch this stupid show anymore.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:There are many ways to go about this, but I prefer the simple one, TUBBY GET YOUR ASS ON THAT TREADMILL AND EAT HEALTHY.
Out of all the options you provided, this one seems the least likely to result in the desired outcome (getting them to exercise). Yes, I'm including the option where you tell them they don't need to exercise.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
Rawrain, the best way to get tubby to exercise is to imagine that YOU are tubby. Why the heck aren't you exercising?
Are you a complete MORON that you didn't realize that you were so fat?
Or are you engaged in self-deception that makes you feel better about who you are so that you can be fat and lazy and not feel bad about it?
Or is it genetic? Insurmountable?
It's usually not that you're a moron, and so your alerting them to the fact usually wont help things. Lying to them wont help things either - you're just helping them lie to themselves as well.
And one last thing: Even if you are uber-sensitive in communicating, people's struggles are ultimately up to themselves. You can't change anyone, they have to do all the changing on their own. You can sensitively alert them to problems, help them along, but if they don't want to change, they ain't gonna.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
quote:The big question is whether lying to make someone to make them feel better, a better choice then telling the truth and making them feel bad.
That would be an interesting conversation. See the first few episodes of Lie To Me season 1.
But the conversation you are having is a bit different. You seem to be saying that you can't be bothered to lie, that you don't care if your message has is acted upon, and that the only way you count your conversation as effective is if it gets your opinion across.
Well yes, if they only thing important to you is to get your point of view out to others--even if it is ignored, then brutal shocking truth will work.
However, if you want your opinion acted upon it is totally ineffective.
The first time you call someone "Tubby" they will quit listening to you. You say that your sister spends too much time worrying about her appearance. That is your opinion and when you start telling her your opinion, she stops listening. She will only listen again if you actually stop trolling and get back on the subject of her present appearance.
This relates to one of my pet theories--about Blame. Laying Blame has only one use...it frees you from having to help solve the problem.
You tell your sister she worries too much about her looks--your done. You don't have to help her be any less shallow. You tell Tubby to diet or die, your done. If he dies at your feet, well its his fault for not listening to you.
Its a great way to free yourself from having to help your fellow man.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: In my experience, you can safely replace "when you get to know me..." with "I'm too lazy or selfish to actually..." in most sentences.
Pay no attention to TomDavidson, Rawrain- he's a nice guy once you get to know him... :ducks:
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: Of course if I was scary and intimidating this might work, I am not so me saying it is useless, but I still try. Tubby can be upset about what I said and do nothing, do nothing and not be upset, or at least give it an effort.
On a more serious note, I may have been wrong about you. It may not be that you are just immature and selfish. It may be that you are seriously lacking in basic empathy, and have a regard for yourself so deeply distorted that you are not even aware that you are incapable of making the false impression of mature comportment and even-handedness on this forum that you believe you are making.
I suggest you stop. I suggest you listen.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: Due to how well a debate(?) about this was going in another topic I decide to drag that tangent over to its own topic so it can be discussed through and through.
As I stand, I believe brutal honesty is just as effective (and may not be considered as nice) as sugar coating the truth.
I also believe both of these methods of persuasion do not always have the desired effect that a person assumes.
( I would also like to point out my brutal honesty isn't just saying what the problem is at hand, I also use metaphors and sarcasm as my medium to make the truth easier to understand(and I also do it, because I can't control it /: ))
- I need some examples /: I'm too lazy to type some and I am pressed for time, my breaks are only 10 minutes every hour... from 45 to 55 on de-clock.
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: I'm more upset about wasted time, I have a girlfriend who gives me* all the attention I need .-.
...
I'm going to guess you're ... 19 years old.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:Isn't the assumption that being rude will hurt someone's feelings? And wouldn't intentionally hurting someone's feelings be bad?
Not necessarily. Or, rather, that might be the assumption, but it might be wrong -- and even if it's right, intentionally hurting someone might still be the least of a number of possible harms.
That said, choosing to potentially inflict harm when there is no possible gain to anyone by doing so is pretty difficult to justify.
Right. Being rude might be the smallest of harms, and even if it does hurt someone's feelings that could be morally neutral or even positive if it accomplishes a bigger goal. But I can't see how you can guarantee that to the point that rudeness, in and of itself, is morally neutral.
I would think it's a bit to situational for that to really apply.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
I say 16.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
Definitely <19.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Much like the selfish "blunt honesty" described, I think it highly unlikely that this purposely insulting speculation on the poster's age will accomplish anything positive.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Imagine that we're right, and he's a teen. In which case he can benefit from wondering what it is about his mannerisms or Crusade for Blunterer Truth which are such a giveaway for his relative immaturity.
There's a more substantive criticism of his whole idea, but that's largely been covered.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Yes, I can imagine situations where it could help. I can also imagine situations where the "blunt honesty" could help.
But in both situations, I think the odds are vanishingly small.
Posted by Drifter (Member # 11958) on :
I think he'd like to be thought of as nineteen.
The difference between 'blunt honesty' and 'insult' is whether the opinion of the giver of the blunt honesty was sought.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I think its highly unfortunate that so many of us arguing against the morality of being "brutally honest", are treating Rawrain so brutally.
I have a few questions for Rawrain.
First, In your mind, what is morality? Beyond this particular issue, how do you judge whether or not any act is "moral" or "immoral".
Second, What do you mean by being "brutally honest"? There is certainly a very wide spectrum between saying "You're disgustingly obese, get off your fat butt you lazy pig and get some exercise" and saying "No you aren't fat, you're just naturally big boned."
Third, Accurately communicating how we feel about people and things is at least as important to honesty as accurately communicating what we think about people and events. Let me give an example. I like my husband to give me presents, any kind of presents. If he gives me something I don't particularly like, it doesn't really matter. I like that he gave it to me. If I tell him, "Thank you so much but I really don't like the color", all he will hear is that I didn't like the gift. I know him well enough to know he won't hear how much I enjoyed being given the gift, which is true and is to me much more important than whether the gift was the right color. So I'm not going to ever tell him I didn't like the color, because though its factually correct -- what it communicates would not be true.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
I suggest you stop. I suggest you listen.
You forgot "collaborate."
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:There are many ways to go about this, but I prefer the simple one, TUBBY GET YOUR ASS ON THAT TREADMILL AND EAT HEALTHY.
Out of all the options you provided, this one seems the least likely to result in the desired outcome (getting them to exercise). Yes, I'm including the option where you tell them they don't need to exercise.
This. It all depends on what your goal is. Do you actually want them to listen to you and take steps to correct the problem (as you see it)? Or is your bottom line something else?
If your highest value is being true to yourself, I can see picking brutal honesty. If your highest value is harmony, accomplishing a particular end or, basically, anything other than absolute personal authenticity, then that option has significantly less appeal.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote: If your highest value is being true to yourself, I can see picking brutal honesty. If your highest value is harmony, accomplishing a particular end or, basically, anything other than absolute personal authenticity, then that option has significantly less appeal.
This is basically it for me, with an addition: look at the people in the world who really accomplish things, especially when it comes to getting others to do what they want them to do, particularly by simple persuasion. How many of them adopt the methods you're espousing, Rawrain?
Answer that question using the exact methods you're espousing, please, and the discussion should take an interesting turn, because if you do answer honestly instead of beating around the bush, we'll get to what Olivet was saying: what your true motives are.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
On a different track, I have trouble with honesty because my point of view tends to be so different from other people's.
I've decided there's an imaginary box around people that their reality fits in. And everyone likes honesty that fits into their box of reality. I'm not sure if most people's realities tend to align or if others have a sixth sense of where the lines are that I absolutely did not get. But either way, I try to be tactfully honest and still end up pissing people off by presenting them with information they really don't want to process.
It's fairly frustrating to try to do right and frequently have it still be wrong. Mostly I've decided that "honest opinion" is just some kind of oxymoron. Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I agree with the several others who have said the original question was more interesting as a discussion topic, so I think I'll talk about that. But not before repeating what has already been said by multiple people.
Though I'm big on honesty I rarely (i.e. no one I remember ever) like people who describe themselves as being 'brutally honest'. I've liked some people others describe that way, which is good because some people describe me that way. However, whenever I hear anyone talk about themselves that way it's always been followed by a clear demonstration that what they really mean is that they are constantly insulting people and using that as their get-out-of-jail-free card when confronted. I've also noticed these people tend to get along very poorly with others like them.
As with everyone else I agree there's multiple ways to tell the truth some being more effective than others (of course depending on your goals as said above). However, I wonder what circumstances we're thinking of here. The examples all seem to be unsolicited advice, which I find interesting.
So moving into the question I'd rather talk about (the morality of 'white lies') I'm pretty up in the air. Which is why I'd like to hear more discussion about it. For me it comes up a heck of a lot more with response to questions than initial statements. When I see someone overweight my first thought has never been 'how do I tell them their overweight and need help?', ever. I do get asked by people if they're fat though, which I find a much more tricky situation.
My strategy most of the time is active avoidance. Answer the question so they think you've answered it but you really haven't. Most people aren't trying to press for specific answers in these situations anyways so they can feel good about my positive reinforcement and I can feel good that I didn't lie to them. Maybe this is an ethically questionable practice for others: misleading those deliberately being as bad as lying all that, but I don't have a problem with it. However, if I'm ever pressed for a direct answer, my policy is always, always tell the truth. I feel good about that too: so that people can have confidence in what I say to know I'll never lie to them. It means when I do say something positive (e.g. "no, you really do look good in that skirt") they can trust I mean it.
I'm comfortable with this position and I'm not likely to change it, but it's a for me only policy and I haven't made up my mind on others. The truth is I do enjoy having friends who I know will provide positive reinforcement to the point of white lies to me. Sometimes it's very encouraging when I'm down and really just want to feel better rather than address the fact that I should take at least 15 pounds off. But the flip side is I never quite trust their praise either, so when I do do something I think is great my enjoyment of their compliments is always tempered. It leaves me unsure.
Hobbes Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:When I see someone overweight my first thought has never been 'how do I tell them their overweight and need help?', ever. I do get asked by people if they're fat though, which I find a much more tricky situation.
You know, I don't think anyone has ever asked me if I thought they were over weight.
On second thought, my husband does occasionally ask me if he's getting fat but since he has a BMI of about 20, the answer's always "don't be ridiculous". (Bike racers )
But with that exception, no one has ever asked me if I think they are over weight.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Well, thinking about it I guess technically the question I'm asked is almost always "do I look fat?", rather than "am I fat?" (or "am I overweight?"). Just as often though, the question is posed in the form of a statement they clearly want me to rebut and is then normally an "am" rather than "look". For instance: "Ughh! I'm so fat!" or "I've put on so much weight since I stopped jogging and now I'm overweight!"
Hobbes Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Just as often though, the question is posed in the form of a statement they clearly want me to rebut and is then normally an "am" rather than "look". For instance: "Ughh! I'm so fat!" or "I've put on so much weight since I stopped jogging and now I'm overweight!"
As a general rule, I refuse to answer such non-questions.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
I've asked if I've gotten too heavy for a particular piece of clothing before. And I really do want an honest answer there because there's a fine line between sexy snug and oops snug.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Just as often though, the question is posed in the form of a statement they clearly want me to rebut and is then normally an "am" rather than "look". For instance: "Ughh! I'm so fat!" or "I've put on so much weight since I stopped jogging and now I'm overweight!"
As a general rule, I refuse to answer such non-questions.
I have the same approach, MPH.
I would like to hear opinions on the actual thread's title though. The morality of white lies versus telling the truth (in as polite and circumspect way as possible).
Hobbes Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
I think that it's a very utilitarian game - trying to figure out what would produce the best result.
I thing it's good to go with lying as generally bad - mostly because we're just not good enough at it that it doesn't have some sort of negative effect on others or on ourselves.
There are times when the white lie is good. Like for the sake of family peace and harmony, sometimes a white lie is good. Excessive lying is probably a bad idea. If you always tell your wife that her cooking is great, it kind of loses the power to be complimentary. But saying that you don't like something can be done in a way in which you don't hurt the other person's feelings and you gain credibility at the same time.
All in all, I'd say sugar-coating is more effective than white lies. White lies should be used very very sparingly.
As for morality? I don't think sugar coating is lying - I think it is simply being sensitive to another person's emotional state.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: There are times when the white lie is good. Like for the sake of family peace and harmony, sometimes a white lie is good. Excessive lying is probably a bad idea. If you always tell your wife that her cooking is great, it kind of loses the power to be complimentary. But saying that you don't like something can be done in a way in which you don't hurt the other person's feelings and you gain credibility at the same time.
The things is, there is generally middle ground in many situations and, of course, the option of just keeping our mouths shut.
For instance, you don't always have to tell your wife that her cooking is great. If dinner wasn't all that good, but you still want her to feel good about cooking it, a simple, "Thanks for dinner Love" can accomplish that. It expresses your gratitude without inflating your "dinner goodness currency".
Even if she specifically had asked you what you thought of dinner, there are ways around it. There are things like, "It was nice for variety, but you know my favorite will always be your meatloaf."
I guess that's the whole thing about being brutally honest in most situations. Sometimes it HAS to happen, sometimes the shock value is necessary. If someone is doing something reckless and dangerous and all the *less direct* options have failed in the past, it's sometimes worth trying the "brutally honest" approach. It won't always work, but sometimes it can crack a shell of self deception that wasn't with gentler methods. Most of the time, however, there isn't any need for it. You don't need to go around shocking people and creating rough edges.
As for other "little white lies", that's a totally different ball game. I'm certainly guilty of them from time to time. It is a little bit of a slippery slope, because the justification of them is generally to make life easier and/or more pleasant without creating any real harm. That's not a very objective qualification though, since I'm sure some of the Enron execs were trying to hide behind those same excuses in their own consciences when they pulled their schemes. How do you keep the lies to being truly "little and white"?
Several little white lies that I've told include:
Lying about how much a gift cost. My parents frequently ask me this question because they're scared of me spending too much money on them. The thing is, it isn't REALLY ok to get them nothing, and I don't want to always get them crap, so... sometimes the gift gets deflated by about 20%.
Lying about why/which doctor I went to. Our coworkers are all pretty close, so when people miss work, it's only out of concern that people ask why. They just want to know if they can help, and I know I've asked coworkers too. However, there are some problems I'd rather keep to myself, so I'll fib a little, or just say "nothing serious" (even in a few times when it was actually pretty serious). I could, of course, say something more "honest" like "Mind your own business" or even "I'm not comfortable talking about it", but even the kinder of the two can feel like a rebuke of the person who asked the question, and I don't want to do that. I APPRECIATE the fact that my co-workers care about me, and I don't want to make them feel bad about being concerned.
And, of course, I regularly lie to my son! We're still doing Santa Clause, St Nick, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy!
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
"For instance, you don't always have to tell your wife that her cooking is great. If dinner wasn't all that good, but you still want her to feel good about cooking it, a simple, "Thanks for dinner Love" can accomplish that. It expresses your gratitude without inflating your "dinner goodness currency"."
I dunno, my Dad's been inflating that currency for years, but the benefit of owning the mint is that he just gets to keep printing more, and my Mom is satisfied. Whatever works, I say.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
)