After this premiere, I am confident in thinking this is a series that is worth paying attention to, with the realization that it is good and has an excellent chance at staying good and staying on television.
Here's the basics:
1. Oh my god, zombies! 2. Wait this show is actually really good. People were expecting meh-range SCC-level. But this is actually good. 3. They show right at the beginning that they aren't farting around or watering stuff down for tv palatability. Brains will be eaten or blown out. Om nom. 4. AMC is reporting that the premiere got 5.3 million viewers. 5. For comparison, the season finale of Mad Men got 2.44 million. 6. Being based on a well-vetted comic series means that there's less than average worry of the story becoming diluted or deluged with soapy drama over time.
Posted by FoolishTook (Member # 5358) on :
I like what I see so far. It's a show I'm going to recommend to my zombie-phile friends.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I watched a leaked copy of the episode a week ago, but I DVRed the premiere last night and I'm looking forward to watching it again.
I loved it. I feel like Darabont and his team really understand the comic and what its trying to accomplish. The episode was a great mix of gore, suspense, and character. I also appreciate that while its staying very true to the comic, its also making some extra turns in order to keep it fresh for fans of the source material. And so far, what has been added is very in-step with the vibe of the comic.
I excited to meet more of the main cast next week. Rick is very much the core of the series, but the supporting cast has to be strong to make this work.
I think the only sad part is the short first season (only six episodes). And while it great that they aren't rushing the story along, its scary to think it may be awhile before we get to some of my favorite story arcs.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Shanna, everything you said was nice, but the first sentence was the key one.
"I watched it a week ago, but I DVRed the premiere and I'm looking forward to watching it again." That is better than every other compliment put together, for a tv show. Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Say hypothetically that you are NOT normally a zombiephile, would you like this show? For reference, I liked "Shawn of the Dead" and "I am Legend" but that's about it. (haven't seen Zombieland yet).
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I think you'd enjoy it.
Its really not a show about zombies, its a show about people living in a world full of zombies. The comic is about taking these people from a modern life of convenience, breaking them down, watching to see if they can create anything out of the chaos, and wondering if morality and sanity are the price of survival. The source material is very character-driven. Yeah, there's going to be alot of gore and some great scenes of people killing zombies and vice versa, but that's not what "The Walking Dead" is about. Its as much about zombies as Buffy is about vampires.
Be warned! You will fall in love with characters who will probably die in very horrible and tragic ways. There were so many times while reading the comic that I would just stop and stare at a page in disbelief. I know atleast two trade paperbacks were thrown across the room. And of course, I got so hooked that I'd read late into the night even though the zombie parts of the storyline would give me horrible nightmares.
If you like Shaun and Legend, then I'd say this show is right up your alley.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm not a zombiephile by any stretch of the imagination, but I like this show quite a bit. For one thing, it seems to understand pacing.
The lead character's long walk out of the hospital, for example, was nearly perfect. Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Yeah. Unlike the zombie movies, they actually have time to let those quiet scenes breathe.
Take the opening to 28 Days Later. A fine opening in its own right, but they didn't have enough time to linger quite long enough, in my opinion.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: Say hypothetically that you are NOT normally a zombiephile, would you like this show?
I was prepared to reject this show out of hand as something attempting to cash in on the latest tv nerdery (like the vampire shows before them, sci-fi and superhero before them, etc) that ultimately would not be able to sustain itself just as a 'thing for zombie lovers' but erm. Nope, it stands on its own two shuffling feet.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I found it excellent - I really enjoyed it, but it's too intense for my kids. I know nothing of the comic, but I'm enjoying the series so far.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I liked the show a lot, though I had to pause it to go look up whether the comic came out before or after 28 days later. The "waking up from a coma in hospital to find a Zombie apocalypse" was kind of already done.
Not that the show (comic?) is a rip off or anything, but I'm surprised to not have it acknowledged just how close those two openings were.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
The comic and 28 Days Later were released within a year of each other, and of course were written independently around the same time though I think Kirkman had written the first issue years before.
I don't know what the show could have done to acknowledge the similarities and to change the opening would have been difficult. For the Atlanta storyline to work, Rick's family had to believe they were leaving him in safe hands. It reminds me of hurricane Katrina and people who evacuated thinking their families would be taken care of by the hospital staff. Sadly, they weren't.
Besides, a dramatically different opening would have upset fans. The show/comic and the movie deal with similar themes so I'm okay with the hospital opening. That's how the comic opened and it's just one of life's little coincidences. No way around it. However, it is funny watching the people at imdb flip out over this "issue."
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I have to say, I found that opening extremely well done. When he awoke to hold the conversation with his friend about the flowers only to find them dried and dead on the nightstand - very effective way of showing the time passage.
My question for comic readers - will we see the man and his son who helped Rick again? I am curious as to what happens to them.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
If the series lasts long enough, yes.
Yes you will.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Please, sir, may I have some more?
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Oh man, what an episode. SPOILER ALERT When they were walking through the streets trying to pose as zombies, I don't think I've ever been so on the edge of my seat.
What a great show, I can't wait until the next episode already.
Posted by FoolishTook (Member # 5358) on :
SPOILER ALERT II
Leaving that guy handcuffed on the roof was horrible. He was a creep, and they should have left him behind. But that's a terrible situation. I was hoping the guy who dropped the key was going to leave him a hacksaw at least.
Otherwise, great show!
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
This sounds interesting. I'll have to check it out!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I was hoping the guy who dropped the key was going to leave him a hacksaw at least.
He knocked over the saws. No doubt the guy on the roof will saw himself free and become an enemy.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
I just watched the first episode on Hulu, and I was really impressed. The feel of the whole thing is right on target, and the cinematography and pacing were awesome. The scene where Morgan is trying to force himself to shoot his wife was really powerful.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Loved the second episode! I'm so happy with what we've seen so far of Glenn and Andrea. All around, the characterizations are incredible.
I was particularly impressed by the scene between Rick and Andrea when she was admiring the necklace and talking about her sister. It hit all the right notes for me. And the humor is also a nice touch. "He was an organ donor" or "There's only white meat and dark meat now."
I will say that these zombies are much more dangerous than their comic book counterparts. Turning door knobs, breaking windows with bricks, climbing fences, some of these traits may end up altering some later story lines but hopefully not too much. But bonus points to the cinematography crew. For some reason I can't put my finger on, the zombies were much scarier in this episode than they were in the first. Its especially cool for the makeup to play so well in daylight when most zombie movies rely on night shots and shadows.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:I was hoping the guy who dropped the key was going to leave him a hacksaw at least.
He knocked over the saws. No doubt the guy on the roof will saw himself free and become an enemy.
I hope not, that would be pretty cliched. He should be dead. I also felt terrible watching him be left like that, especially handcuffed and helpless, but that should be the end of that character, IMO.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: I will say that these zombies are much more dangerous than their comic book counterparts. Turning door knobs, breaking windows with bricks, climbing fences...
Ugh. The one thing I didn't like about the premier was that the zombies seemed to exhibit the intelligence of a smart dog now and then. I was hoping that they'd tone that down in subsequent episodes.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I tried watching the premier, but I didn't like it at all. I don't like swearing, mysogyny, shooting, gore, adultery, or lazy stereotypes of the South. What was left - some nice staging and excellent acting - wasn't enough to tip it over into enjoyable.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
If you don't want to watch gore, you're generally going to want to give zombie shows a wide berth.
When you're talking about mysogyny, are you thinking of the dialog between the main character and his partner near the beginning? I thought that the mysogyny on the partner's part was illustrative of his character (which will come into play later, assuming that the show follows the same trajectory as the graphic novel). The main character's statements about the difference between men and women bothered me as well, but I took it to be more him complaining about his specific relationship than truly generalizing about how he thinks that women are. That may be wishful thinking on my part, though.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jake:
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: I will say that these zombies are much more dangerous than their comic book counterparts. Turning door knobs, breaking windows with bricks, climbing fences...
Ugh. The one thing I didn't like about the premier was that the zombies seemed to exhibit the intelligence of a smart dog now and then. I was hoping that they'd tone that down in subsequent episodes.
Actually, maybe I should reserve that "ugh" until we see what's behind the bursts of zombie intelligence. Do zombies possess intelligence in proportion to the intelligence that they possessed when they were living? That could be interesting. Or if there are different types of zombies, a la The Zombie Hunters, that could be interesting.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It's my general feeling that there is a fine line between mysogyny that reveals a scummy character and mysogyny in television in general.
There are other ways to reveal a scummy character, and that...it was the only major dialogue exchange I saw so far. The talk about women was so far from okay it made me sick to my stomach. It seemed like the conversation was there as much to indicate that there are testeroney, full-on macho guys as much as that these are not great kind of guys. If that's supposed to be our hero, why is he such good friends with such an enormous *$%#@*&.
So, there is mysogyny in service of a characterization, and then there is what felt like gratuitous mysogyny that's the only extended voice of the author we get to hear. From what I've read, there is some gratuitious racial slurs as well. And the major female character turns out to be as terrible a person as advertised. There are other ways to catch attention without resorting to being pedestrian offensive.
I think it is either lazy writing, or, well, regular old mysogyny. Either way, it puts the show in a hole that means the rest of it has to be beyond spectacular (clever, witty, unexpected) to overcome, and that didn't happen.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Personally, I don't want zombies who are intelligent or behave in ways the recall their previous lives. If the show lasts long enough, we're going to see example of characters trying to hold onto their loved ones after death and I like how, in the comic book, there was nothing to justify this sort of choice. Once someone is a zombie, their old self disappears.
Kirkman did write about zombies with different hunting and movement behaviors, though I don't think the reason has been addressed yet.
Katharina, I feel like you're trying to read too much into the very little material you've seen. Lori is a big character but she's not the LEAD female character. The shows centers around a group of survivors and key characters will die and new characters will be added later. If you want to look at admirable female characters, Andrea is probably your best bet for now though everyone is going to act in questionable ways as the series progresses. As for Rick, he is THE lead but if anyone expects for him to be the knight in shining armor for the rest of the series, they're going to be very disappointed. He has a strong sense of leadership but that's going to lead him down some very dark and questionable paths.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It isn't just one moment. The sum of the rascist and mysogynistic parts put the show into a hole that nothing I've seen or read yet has redeemed it from.
You can disagree with me without attacking me, my character, or my methods.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:It seemed like the conversation was there as much to indicate that there are testeroney, full-on macho guys as much as that these are not great kind of guys.
You are absolutely supposed to hate his "best friend," who is his patrol partner.
quote:I think it is either lazy writing, or, well, regular old mysogyny.
It is, IMO, neither. That said, you're certainly allowed to dislike things that offend you, even -- perhaps especially -- if they're meant to offend.
------------
For my part, I actually hope they end the series before Rick goes too dark. The comic loses its way -- its through-line, if you will -- when it loses Rick, and is all but unreadable nowadays.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Art that catches attention by being offensive is ultimately empty.
Anyone can do that. It takes a good writer to create a character without employing the shock factor.
At this point, the person we are supposed to at least care about, if not admire, was one willing half of a conversation that should get you exiled from polite company. If it is just horrible things happening to unlikable people, there are no stakes.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
You are completely welcome to not watch the show. You don't like gore and violence so a show with zombies will probably be a waste of your time. I find depictions of realistic drug abuse very uncomfortable so I'm not going to sit down and watch "Intervention."
But its unfortunate for you to suggest that because the show chooses to depict racism and misogyny (two very real and terrible human traits that exist in the world), that the show's writers and directors are racists and misogynists. Worse things are going to happen on this show so you should absolutely stop watching now if you haven't already.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I won't watch it - I don't have TV, so I use Netflix and watch new releases by buying them one at a time off Amazon - but I might continue to read the recaps and comment.
I know nothing and am saying nothing personal about the shows' writers. But there was mysogyny in the show that wasn't completely ironic, and that's a problem in the show. I hope it does get better - Mad Men dances along the line of ironic and garden variety (Betty is almost a cartoon) mysogyny as well, and I'd hate for that to become AMC's MO.
quote:For my part, I actually hope they end the series before Rick goes too dark. The comic loses its way -- its through-line, if you will -- when it loses Rick, and is all but unreadable nowadays.
Maybe this is the issue for me. Rick was lost in that conversation, so there wasn't a compelling reason to endure the rest.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: It's my general feeling that there is a fine line between mysogyny that reveals a scummy character and mysogyny in television in general.
I agree with you that that's the case. And there are certainly plenty of examples of causal mysogyny on TV.
quote:...it was the only major dialogue exchange I saw so far. The talk about women was so far from okay it made me sick to my stomach.
I felt like the lead was uncomfortable with what his partner was saying as well, though. The partner himself even recognized it, making the comment about how his routine had failed to entertain. It seemed to me like the main character wasn't actually objecting to what the guy was saying because they were partners who had to work closely together. Whether that's the right choice or not is questionable, of course.
quote:From what I've read, there is some gratuitious racial slurs as well.
Really? I don't recall any. I've only seen the first episode, though.
quote:And the major female character turns out to be as terrible a person as advertised.
In the first episode (again, I haven't seen the second, so I can't speak to it)? How so?
In any case, it's perfectly fine that you don't care for the show. As I said, even apart from the question of mysogyny, there is swearing, which you don't care for, and there certainly isn't a lack of gore.
Tom, I wonder if they'll continue to hew closely to the comic's storyline once the show finds its legs. As Shanna said, just the fact that zombies in this version possess some intelligence and a decent measure of dexterity means that some things as written in the comic won't work in the show. I suspect that this show will go the way of True Blood, moving further and further from the source material as the seasons go by.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I felt like the lead was uncomfortable with what his partner was saying as well, though. The partner himself even recognized it, making the comment about how his routine had failed to entertain. It seemed to me like the main character wasn't actually objecting to what the guy was saying because they were partners who had to work closely together. Whether that's the right choice or not is questionable, of course.
This.
His response was not to agree with his partner, but to mention that in his relationship it was him who was more likely to exhibit the behavior the partner was complaining of (whatever it was, I don't even remember).
That's a really tactful way of handling the situation, IMO. I sometimes get trapped in conversations where the other person is being something of a bigot, and I use a similar technique if that person is someone I have to interact with on a regular basis.
To use this conversation as an example that the lead is a misogynist just seems odd to me. Especially when the rest of the episode seems to hammer home that he loves his wife.
Edit: I'm thinking that part of the episode didn't have the emotional weight for me as it did for Kat, so I am open to the possibility that I am misremembering it.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
That isn't what I said.
The friend certainly seems to be, the lead is best friends with someone who is, and the show seems to be.
I didn't say the lead is a mysogynist. I said that he seems to be best friends with someone who seems to be, which could mean several things, but the most straightforward explanation is that he is best friends with someone who is and seemingly has been for a long time.
Maybe it is just a REALLY small town and there aren't a lot of choices, but whatever the reason, while the friend noted that the story wasn't a hit, but he sure wasn't afraid that his friend would recoil, either.
-----
You can disagree with my conclusions without impugning me.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
To be fair, I can understand katharina's point:
That conversation, which wasn't anywhere in the original comic, seemed... off to me. I was willing to let it go, and allow it to serve its purpose of showing Shane be the dick Shane is always going to be, but it was definitely a part that bugged me. I was hoping Rick would say something different in response. I didn't expect his response, though then again when a (former) friend of mine spoke of college being only for black basketball players (words spoken with outraged invective, as though they were curse words) I did not stop to confront him about it at the time... so I can understand where Rick might not, if he and Shane were close.
The second episode had an obviously villainous racist, of the outrageously stereotypical variety. I am not sure why they needed that. The women given screen time in the second episode, Andrea and the black lady, whose name I have no clue of, seemed fine. Andrea was clearly annoyed, and stressed at the beginning, but she was portrayed as competent, (though her characterization was more in line with her personality later in the comic, than at the beginning, Which I found interesting) and the other woman pulled her weight with ideas and knowledge of the area.
Luckily, Lori isn't the "female lead" of the story at all.
However, considering the swearing and gore (since it is a zombie story) I'd recommend you skip it, katharina. It's only going to get gorier, and the situations are only going to get less pleasant. Any feeling of optimism won't last. And if the comic is any indication, Rick will be forced to become much more compromised morally, though he will never fully lose his way, as opposed to what Tom said about it.
In my opinion, the show's been quite good... but they added a few of those negative moments, and even I was put off by them, so I understand katharina's feelings.
---
Tom, I dunno if you're right about the through-line.
The next statements are going to be vague spoilers:
Certainly Rick has had to do some terrible things, and has gone a long way from the police officer he used to be. From saying to his son that "killing people should never be easy", he's found it becoming all too easy, and all too casual. In fact, the fact that this continues to bother him, and his struggle with this, is one of the largest things his story arc has focused on.
But even at his very worst (which is pretty darned bad by any standards) there's still a kernel of decency inside of him, that perhaps even his son lacks.
Take the most recent issue. The speech he gives about both who he is, and what he's had to do, seems a sort of, if not conclusion, than a new shift in his personal story. He obviously feels remorse for the many bad things he's had to do (especially how excessively he's done some of them) and makes clear to everyone an interesting point, and perhaps one of the points of the series: In such chaos, people have to do terrible things, and sometimes they change. Much of the time, for the worse. Is that their true nature coming out, or does the stress and the terrible things done to survive break them somewhat? Rick does a bit of deflecting, ("I never would have done those things if the situation were normal") but he uses it to help people come to terms with the murderous spree of another, trusted person, and say that perhaps it wasn't fully his fault. There's a convenience in his logic that "maybe he's changed as much from what he was as the dead have", but it's used in a compassionate way. Even if the logic doesn't work, and it might very well not, it's being used for what seems decent, and that decency is still at Rick's core.
But then, he's finally had time to clear his head, too. Part of the point of the current story arc is to juxtapose what Rick and the others had become, with people who were closer to normal. And perhaps to remind Rick a little of who he really is.
Live like a savage long enough, and you may become savage yourself. But this is the first time, really, since the truly horrible event of issue 48, that Rick's had time to do anything but simply survive. After a really rocky transitional period, it seems to be doing him some good. Which means, of course, that things are going to go bad quickly.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I didn't say the lead is a mysogynist. I said that he seems to be best friends with someone who seems to be, which could mean several things, but the most straightforward explanation is that he is best friends with someone who is and seemingly has been for a long time.
Eh, I've had good friends with all sorts of views and behaviors I disapproved of. I guess I don't really judge people much by their friends.
Added:
quote: You can disagree with my conclusions without impugning me.
If this was to me, I don't think I did any such thing.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
katharina: Where are people impugning you? I'm having trouble seeing it. You said in response to someone that they can stop questioning your character or your motives, but I'm looking hard and I'm not seeing that either.
This is definitely not a criticism, but confusion. What is the insult to your character? I'm trying to see it but I'm clearly missing it.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'd rather not get into it, because I'd rather the talk about show, rather than discuss the discussion or discussers.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Okie dokey then.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Thanks.
----
To elaborate on why his tolerance of the friend's rant made me question Rick himself, it's because this seems to be his best friend. Not just his partner, but the person he opens up to emotionally, even when he's shut down to his wife. From the friend's rant, I gathered that he has a pattern and a history of talking and thinking about women pejoratively, as a whole.
I have friends who do and say all sorts of things I don't agree with, but I have hard time imagining becoming really tight with someone who regularly treated the people close them so badly. Either they way they treat and discuss their partners would have to be okay with me, or else we couldn't discuss our personal lives at all. The second didn't seem to be true, so it has to be the first.
Maybe there's a severe shortage of friend possibilities in the town. We know very little about Rick, though, and one of the most effective ways to create a character IS to show how they relate to other people. In this case, listening tolerantly to that drivel, which was obviously not the first time he heard it.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
I agree. It didn't quite give the right frame of mind for Rick in any event.
I don't feel about it nearly as strongly as you, and kind of ignored it, but that's probably at least in part because I've read the comic, where no such thing happens, and since otherwise the characterization went fairly well, I was able to ignore it.
However, really, all we know is what's on the screen. We can't make excuses for Rick, as much as I'd like to, since that's what they chose to show, and chose to have him say.
However, I have had a close friend who was a womanizer. For years, though, I didn't let it interfere with my friendship... I mostly smiled and nodded, and tried to change the conversation when that part came up. So there's also that: You and I hold friends to slightly different standards. It makes sense those standards would affect how we judge what's shown. What for me was mildly uncomfortable was for you bad enough to sour the show.
Fair enough. It was the worst scene in the episode, honestly. To tell the truth, I wish they played Shane as a little more subtle in that episode. In the second, he's shown to be a more general dick, but we already knew that. Trust me when I say that this little scenario is not going to turn out happily.
But that digression is besides the point. The point being completed, I think. Go figure.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
That makes sense. Everyone has different things that are dealbreakers. --
Moving on from that, how long is Rick supposed to have been in a coma? People can only go without water for about four days at the most, but maybe this was extended because he wasn't in the sun, he was hooked up to something, and he wasn't moving. Still, what - a week? Or is this a question we are not supposed to be asking?
Judging from the beard...okay, no idea. Beards grow at all different rates, so that beard could have taken anywhere from two days (my brother) to two months (my best friend in college).
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
I'm honestly not sure. I doubt we'll ever get an answer. I presume all the fighting happened fairly recently at that point. I'd imagine he was only alone for a week, tops. Probably less. At least, that's all that makes sense to me. But there's nothing hard and fast.
I think it's as you said, we're not supposed to be asking that question! Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It has been suggested to me that instead of trying to watch any zombie movie or show (Shaun of the Dead was barely tolerable, and I had to turn off Supernatural because of the omnipresent gore), I read World War Z instead.
Anyone read that? It does fit in with my summer of apocolyptic fiction.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I liked it.
It's kind of forced, but I like it.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
World War Z is a different kind of story (at least based on the first two episodes of TWD vs. World War Z novel). More global in scope, more like a series of short stories or an anthology, with less focus on individual characters.
I liked it.
However, if you're looking to avoid stereotypes, I'm not sure if that will work out since there's not much room (or effort) in each short story to really transcend beyond a simple characterization of each place. But who knows, since the focus is different.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I have friends who do and say all sorts of things I don't agree with, but I have hard time imagining becoming really tight with someone who regularly treated the people close them so badly.
What makes you think he regularly treats the people close to him badly? I don't recall exactly what was said, I wasn't paying such close attention, but it seemed like he was just complaining about his wife not turning off the lights and made some misogynist comments about it, but IIRC he didn't say he beats his wife over it or anything like that.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
It does have a sort of an I - it relationship vibe.
And that sex scene? How stupid do you actually have to be.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: In fact, the fact that this continues to bother him, and his struggle with this, is one of the largest things his story arc has focused on.
Yeah, but we've had that storyline in the comic at least three times now. It should have ended years ago, if they were just going to keep spiralling.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I actually loved World War Z kat - you may love it too. I read many reviews of it both positive and negative, and I strangely I agreed with much of what I read, and still liked the book. It has its strong points and its weak points but overall, I really, really enjoyed it.
As to the 2nd episode of the TV show - probably the last one I will watch. I wanted an optimistic, hopeful story about people banding together and using their wits and their strengths to overcome an impossible situation and that does not appear to be the story I will get.
The adultery in the forest made me very uncomfortable - as we said, Rick can't have been in a coma more than a week or so from the outbreak, and even given that it may have taken a week to make the trip to Atlanta - she has been away from her husband for two weeks, and has no idea if he's alive or dead. Not to mention, that was very poor decision making. She was obviously afraid enough to be startled when she heard twigs snapping so she had reason to believe there might have been zombies in the area. So, let's just take a romp on the forest floor!! Is she not thinking of her son at all - how is he going to react to her shacking up with a new man less than a month since he last saw his dad?
She is not a sympathetic character at all, and Rick is also becoming less of one. Right now the only one I really like is the teenager. He's smart, capable, and still cares about others.
I think I'm done.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
What did Rick do that decreased your sympathy in the second episode?
Honestly, I'm somewhat afraid that the changes this show is making tend towards negative. The adultery in the forest never happened, at least it didn't happen in such a stupid way; that problematic conversation in the first episode didn't happen... the whole situation with handcuffing the guy never happened.
The way they handled Morgan was wonderful. But I'm less certain about the way they have handled the other characters. Glenn is great. He's still Glen. Andrea is nice, but I don't quite understand why they had her that way. It's not really how she was at the beginning. She was still much more innocent and optimistic then. She only became tough after a lot of trauma, and even then it was combined with closeness with Dale, and later a strong trust of Rick. With those seemingly absent, she seems a less positive character.
After all, the "point guns at people first" thing of hers only started in earnest after issue 48. Then again, issue 48 changed pretty much everyone who survived.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick:
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I have friends who do and say all sorts of things I don't agree with, but I have hard time imagining becoming really tight with someone who regularly treated the people close them so badly.
What makes you think he regularly treats the people close to him badly? I don't recall exactly what was said, I wasn't paying such close attention, but it seemed like he was just complaining about his wife not turning off the lights and made some misogynist comments about it, but IIRC he didn't say he beats his wife over it or anything like that.
Treating someone badly is not confined to physical violence. Objectification, naked contempt, disrespect, and cursing at and about her all qualify.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
The handcuffing and leaving the guy - he could have handcuffed the guys hands behind his back and still kept the guy with the group. When the group made plans to escape and did not take the guy off the roof with them...I knew he would be left. And despite the jerk that he was (and there was no doubt he was a jerk) he didn't deserve that.
Also, if you handcuff a guy to a roof in a city full of zombies, you should go un-handcuff the guy. Leaving it to someone else who has reason not to do it....not cool.
I also don't like smart zombies - one of the things that makes zombies so terrifying is their lack of human intelligence - that they are a mindless horde and still manage to be threaten us, it is a commentary on the fact that our human intelligence cannot always save us. When you pit that human intelligence against another intelligence it becomes a different type of story. It can still be scary, still intense and suspenseful - but it's different.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
So, what did everyone think of episode 3?
Overall, I feel like the show lost some steam for me. Which isn't to say that it didn't have some great moments. The opening with Merle was intense. I was absolutely riveted.
The other key high point was the reunion between Rick and Carl. I'm so glad it wasn't over dramatized. I feel like any other show would have thrown in some excessive slow motion or something really over the top. Instead we got this lovely moment and the look on Rick's face when he saw his family...just perfect.
I also really enjoyed the moment with the ladies by the river. I like shows that make time for the quiet or mundane moments.
My biggest issue with this episode was Carol. I kinda shrugged off the small character changes for Shane and Lori but Carol is almost a completely different character. She looks very different from her comic counterpart and while the series makes mention of an abusive husband, he never made an appearance and its possible she may have been lying. Still, she seems to maintain her generally likable demeanor among the other campers so depending how things play out for her husband, we may or may not see a truly different incarnation of Carol.
And why do so many of the new characters come off as over-the-top stereotypes? I can tolerate one redneck because in a post-Zombie South you know its the rednecks that are going to survive (and besides, Merle's brother Daryl is much more realistic.) But now we also have not at all subtle abusive husband. And his storyline seems very similar to recent issues of the graphic novel, though with very different characters and purpose.
So basically this episode was a mixed bag for me. Still excited for next week though!
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Me too. I, also, am wondering what's up with the over-the-top stereotypes. Why do we need them? Why not just stick with characters who are actually that- characters?
I feel like these episodes were written by a different person than the first episode. That one was too real. It had much more true emotion.
Or... episode two was also written by Daramont. (checked imdb) Episode three, however, was written by him and several other people, too.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:The handcuffing and leaving the guy - he could have handcuffed the guys hands behind his back and still kept the guy with the group. When the group made plans to escape and did not take the guy off the roof with them...I knew he would be left. And despite the jerk that he was (and there was no doubt he was a jerk) he didn't deserve that.
That's interesting, because the impression I got from the guy was that he actually planned to do some murdering once he won the little fight on the roof, before he got cuffed. I certainly didn't think he didn't deserve to be cuffed and immobilized, because a big, strong, aggressive guy like that could stand up, kick, knock people over.
I don't know how I feel about not (initially) planning to take him with them. It's the zombie apocalypse, and this idiot is a) starting an injuring fight and b) it's about race? And giving off 'gonna kill you' vibes and 'make me leader' vibes?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
It's an extremely stressful situation - people's worst traits come out in such situations. Not excusing him - he was despicable and if it were me, I would have seriously considered leaving him. But Rick is a cop - he knows how to subdue a suspect and keep him under control one would presume. And, if he is so committed to preserving human life, he should have shown that by making sure the guy was not left on the roof. Making sure means not leaving the key with someone else - it means going to release the guy himself. Not to mention, you don't send the guy who has been beaten up by the idiot to release him - too much of a chance for another fight to break out. Rick had the best chance of releasing the guy and keeping him under control because he has training and experience the others do not.
I would have explained to him, calmly that he was coming with them, handcuffed, and if he gave them any grief he would be shot in the head immediately so he could no longer be threat, nor could he rise again.
Leaving him handcuffed on the roof was beyond the pale.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: ... But Rick is a cop - he knows how to subdue a suspect and keep him under control one would presume.
Not for the rest of his life, normally a cop just has to deliver a criminal, often with backup, to a well-secured prison. Keeping the guy around means risking the guy taking revenge or trying to beat everyone into acknowledging his leadership or worse.
Besides, it's Michael Rooker. When it comes to his track record in the genre, he must die. He can't be trusted.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:But Rick is a cop - he knows how to subdue a suspect and keep him under control one would presume.
He's also a cop who was pretty substantially injured, not just by the gunshot wound (which still pained him), but by the violent attack he'd just suffered at the guy's hands. Should he know how to do that? Well, sure. But...we don't know w good of a cop Rick is, or more appropriately was, since how much there really are cops anymore is up for debate in that world. So does he know? I'm not so sure. And again, he's got the rest of the group to think of too, whom the guy has already violently threatened and knowingly endangered over racism.
quote:Leaving him handcuffed on the roof was beyond the pale.
Fortunately, that's not quite what he did. And I don't really buy that 'the worst comes out' defense for the guy either, because as we saw in his dream, he was pretty much a scumbag before the zombie uprising, too. And that thoughtful defense of racism? That wasn't something he came up with on the rooftop, that's something he believed before. Nor was his proposition.
Did he deserve to be handcuffed to that roof? Well, no, I certainly agree with that. I'm also not at all sure the rest of the group deserves to have him with them seriously endangering all of their lives either by his constant stupidity or by his deliberate malice, whichever happens first, because both were shown repeatedly.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I read World War Z. It is absolutely fantastic. Terrifying, too. I was supposed to go running last night and couldn't because I was afraid of the zombies.
It showed people in all sorts of different situations react to the crisis - it's the very best kind of apocalyptic novel.
Drop the show! Read World War Z instead!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It's possible to enjoy both. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It's possible to eat 5-year-old tootsie rolls as well as chocolate ganache, but why would you want to?
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
We get that you don't like the show, Kat, but your opinion flies in the face of nearly everyone else who has seen it.
"Universal Acclaim" for both user and critic scores.
That's not to say that they are right and you are wrong, that's an opinion of course. Just something for you to consider in your attempts to dismiss it.
Edit: (Oh and I've already read WWZ. I suspect that those who would enjoy that book and those who would enjoy this show overlap at least 90%.)
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Or its more like blue cheese: tasty, but not for everyone.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
I loved World War Z. Loved it. I even enjoyed tormenting my family with talk about preparing for such an event.
Why is it that I can read about Zombies and be highly entertained, but I cannot actually watch them? I can read about Zombie gore and deal with it, but I can't watch this show without turning away from each and every zombie.
So, that's what I do. I fast forward the zombie parts and watch the others trying to survive.
I'm sensitive to visuals.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:It's possible to eat 5-year-old tootsie rolls as well as chocolate ganache, but why would you want to?
Because in this case, there's only a finite amount of both?
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: It's possible to eat 5-year-old tootsie rolls as well as chocolate ganache, but why would you want to?
We got it. you don't like this show. You can leave it alone now, especially if you aren't even going to watch it.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Yo that won't work.
BUT UNSURPRISINGLY I AGREE WITH MY SOCK PUPPET ALT.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
If you want to never hear any dissent, get a blog and disable comments.
The things I dislike about The Walking Dead are precisely what World War Z does so well - the human element, under immense presure, and how it responds. There isn't a stereotype in the entire book (unless the otaku kid counts - not in my cultural stable of stereotypes). On the other hand, the show seems to be nothing but.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Okay. Obviously the show is not for you. To the extent that you won't even watch it but you'll make it a persistent point to the extent of derailing this thread with how much you want others to stop watching it. So, you can stop that now, but feel free to take it somewhere else!
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
You don't like it? Ignore it. Paying attention just pays attention.
List all the stuff that is going well that makes you like it so much.
Go ahead.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: You don't like it? Ignore it. Paying attention just pays attention.
Great! Take your own advice! You can start by taking it elsewhere.
Thanks in advance for not derailing my thread further!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I do think, Katie, that you're officially on the record as disliking cartoonish hillbillies. You can probably stop now, that dislike having been logged for posterity.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I just want to register the fantastic irony of "You don't like it? Ignore it. Paying attention just pays attention."
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: You don't like it? Ignore it. Paying attention just pays attention.
More "do as I say, not as I do"? Ok, do it yourself.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Rick is a bit redeemed in my eyes, but only some. I guess I'm fickle, but after the third episode (which I finally watched last night, though it had been on my DVR since Sunday - my interest has definitely waned), we see some heroic character traits - he said he could not leave the guy to die on the roof from thirst and exposure, because he was a human being. Yeah, I agree. At the same time, endangering his wife and child by leaving when they had evidence of zombies in the area....I kinda agree with scumbag Shane.
His wife is more redeemed for me because scumbag Shane told her that her husband was dead. That eliminates my argument that she shouldn't be sleeping around when she doesn't know if her husband is alive or dead. It still feels a little quick for me, but whatever.
quote:The other key high point was the reunion between Rick and Carl. I'm so glad it wasn't over dramatized. I feel like any other show would have thrown in some excessive slow motion or something really over the top. Instead we got this lovely moment and the look on Rick's face when he saw his family...just perfect.
Agreed. It was a great scene.
I agree also with the over-the-top abusive stereotype of the abusive husband. The whole division of labor thing and jumping back in time to a day when women did "women's work" - I don't know....I can see that under great duress the worst of people's personalities might come out but I can't see things going that far, that fast.
As a southerner, I can tell you I know a lot of people who hunt, fish, and fit the "redneck" stereotype pretty well and none of them would treat women that way. I'm not saying they don't exist - every cultural group has its jerks, but I think it's just a bit much.
kat, glad you liked World War Z. It is amazing! I think it's one of the most riveting books I've ever read, regardless of genre. It definitely holds your attention.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: ... There isn't a stereotype in the entire book (unless the otaku kid counts - not in my cultural stable of stereotypes). On the other hand, the show seems to be nothing but.
I'd have to disagree here.
As I pointed out before, while I love the book, pretty much every non-American portrayal is a broad well-worn stereotype. From the British man with a stiff upper lip to the "blind swordsman" (updated to shovel-wielding) in Japan.
What it perhaps doesn't have is American stereotypes.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I was trying to figure out what katherina didn't like, then went and reread the previous page (I skimmed it the first time) and then realize I totally skipped over that long conversation in the beginning of the first episode. Not because it was sexist, just because it was boring. (I tried listening at first, my eyes kept glazing over, until I finally just fast forwarded until something actually happened. I got that they were trying to establish the characters before the apocalypse, but it was such a boring conversation. Gah).
So my perception of the show's been based on that section being edited out. There are definitely stereotypes ahoy in the show, but they seem like the sort of basic stereotypes you give a television character as an initial hook, which are later expounded on. Not the greatest of writing techniques, but not the worst IMO.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Rick is a bit redeemed in my eyes, but only some. I guess I'm fickle, but after the third episode (which I finally watched last night, though it had been on my DVR since Sunday - my interest has definitely waned), we see some heroic character traits - he said he could not leave the guy to die on the roof from thirst and exposure, because he was a human being.
I'm in the odd position of hoping that these decisions which redeem people are appropriately rare for the subject of zombie apocalypse fiction, which ultimately boils down to the real enemy being us / zombies as mirrors of our own tendencies, etc.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:The whole division of labor thing and jumping back in time to a day when women did "women's work" - I don't know....I can see that under great duress the worst of people's personalities might come out but I can't see things going that far, that fast.
Actually, I think this part is pretty credible. I don't think society would have to collapse for too long before women were suddenly doing all the manual housekeeping crap again, except in those rare cases where they were able to successfully make a point of not doing it.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I seem to be the only one who doesn't agree with you, Tom - in discussions with my husband he assured me that I was incorrect. Oh well, wishful thinking on my part, perhaps.
So I watched tonight's episode. Spoilers, naturally.
* * * * * I like the part about the gangbangers protecting the elderly in the city. Even though, as Darryl asutely pointed out, they are not going to survive much longer - that's still a human thing to do. That's what I came for - the glimpses of humanity in the midst of chaos and terror.
What I did not come for is the overly graphic depictions of zombies tearing flesh from bodies. Yes, I know that's what they do - yes, I know it's a zombie show. It has gone a bit too far for me. I know it's cable, but geez AMC. I said that last week would likely be my last week....I gave it another chance (mainly because my 17 year old wanted to watch it and we decided to watch it together tonight), but I'm just not sure.
Those of you who have read the comics - how faithful is it? Should I just read the comics? Or should I just go back and re-read World War Z and call it a day with "The Walking Dead?"
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Well, to be fair, the comic is, if anything, gorier. So if you don't like the graphic depictions, then you won't like it very much.
The part with the gangbangers was definitely great. They showed their humanity, and I loved how the situation just... diffused when the old lady came in. It was a lovely way to end that. I love the look on Rick's face especially, and how he does, finally, give them some of the guns.
So, this episode kind of reaffirmed what I like about this series. The humanity that was present in the first episode.
Kirkman was interviewed about the third episode lately, and had some interesting things to say about it.
quote: A lot of the actors in the press have been saying things like, “It really takes three episodes for you to see what this show is about.” And I think that’s true. The first three episodes are very different. The first one is slow and methodical and focuses entirely on Rick. The second one adds a few characters and is very action-packed, and has a very quick pace. And then the third episode is much more character-driven than the other two episodes. I think from those three episodes you can see the three different things that this show is planning on doing — sometimes in the same episode. I think there is a mixture of these elements in the fourth episode. I think that these three styles can exist in one show is pretty awesome and people are really going to dig it.
---
Anyway, a lot of the stuff from the comics is here. Still, they're expanding things. The gangbangers weren't there originally. There were a lot fewer survivors, even at this point. Still, I kind of like how there are still more pockets of survivors out there. The world just felt a little too empty in the comics, even though it seems obvious that with the straight lines the characters go, they're probably missing, like, 90% if not more of the survivors they would have crossed, by luck and spending most of their time in one spot.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
The series kind of announced rather blatantly at the beginning 'yo, we're blowing out some brains here, we're not going to play it mild on this one'
So, continue to count on the stuff that turns off the squeamish.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
The higher the zombie kill count is, the better the show will be.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
It's not zombie kills that squick me out, it's human characters I've gotten to know, even a little bit, being eaten alive and screaming. And shots of zombies pulling chunks of flesh off with their teeth...maybe I'm just a bit too squeamish for it.
That's okay - I mean, the show is not for everyone. Maybe I'll continue to watch it from the DVR and just fast forward through the gorier bits. We'll see.
Posted by FoolishTook (Member # 5358) on :
SPOILERS!!!
SPOILERS!!!
Am I way off here, or did the zombies attack the camp because the one-handed, formerly handcuffed guy led them there?
Gah! I was so upset when the show ended. I thought this episode was much stronger than last week's.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
I agree. It was definitely stronger. But no, there's no evidence the guy led the zombies to them. Still, I expected him to reappear already!
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Belle, I would HIGHLY suggest you AVOID the comic. I was raised on horror movies and even I was shocked by how quickly and violently the author would kill off beloved characters. The books are full of murder, beheadings, torture, cannibalism, and a dozen horrible ways that human beings can kill each other. Women and very young characters are not spared gruesome ends.
SPOILERS...
I know Rick and the search party were worried that he would be returning with a vengeance, but I don't remember seeing Merle at any point during the zombie attack. I did watch the episode around midnight so I was pretty tired and might have missed him.
I just assumed that a random swarm had stumbled onto the survivors' camp.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Thank you Shanna. You told me all I needed to know.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I love killing zombies. I do it all the time.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: Belle, I would HIGHLY suggest you AVOID the comic. I was raised on horror movies and even I was shocked by how quickly and violently the author would kill off beloved characters. The books are full of murder, beheadings, torture, cannibalism, and a dozen horrible ways that human beings can kill each other. Women and very young characters are not spared gruesome ends.
Well, I certainly need to avoid that comic, forever. *shutters* Posted by LargeTuna (Member # 10512) on :
I may be going against the majority here, but I want faster Zombies and more attacks.
Sometimes I get bored watching the show and and some of the less interesting characters.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
More attacks, yes. Faster zombies, no.
Slow zombies lure people into a false sense of safety. "Oh look, I can out-walk this zombie." But sometimes one zombie has five more behind it and then five more behind them and pretty soon the living are overwhelmed. The temptation for complacency is what usually results in more attacks and higher body counts.
As for the most recent episode...wow...talk about a departure from the graphic novel. I was at a friend's house watching Dexter so I had to record Walking Dead. I was fast-forwarding during the commercials and almost skipped the whole scene with the CDC guy. It was just so out of right field.
I like that the show is adding extra twists and turns, but I'd also like it to check in more with the graphic novel's plot points. Fewer detours, please!
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Well, to be honest, how else are they gonna keep to the content from chapter one in this first season, if they don't?
It seems obvious to me that that's what they're doing. Heck, they've already started their Zombie Trek, and I won't be surprised if the next episode ends the way the comic did. After all, they're already building up to it a LOT. This CDC thing is clearly a needed detour for that. Also... seeing the preview for the next episode, I think it'll be interesting in its own right, and that's okay for me!
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
The temptation for complacency is nice, but I have to admit that the fast zombies (Dawn remake) gives a case for fast zombies = we're all dead Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Ohh, DVR, why did you not record?! Hopefully it'll pick up the 4:30 am Wednesday showing...
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I was extremely disappointed with this episode. If you only get six episodes, for love of god, those six episodes need to actually be coherent and you do not introduce some random new plot thread in your final episode and then resolve it immediately.
The climax of your half-season should involve... I dunno. Zombies. Not some random building that apparently wasn't even in the comic.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I enjoyed the first episode a lot, but the cliches kept on piling up episode after episode, and the final episode was pretty disappointing.
I'm going to stick with it for at least the start of the next season, but I'm not awaiting it eagerly anytmore.
It's also interesting how different people came to this show for different reasons. I've seen a few people post in this thread that they like the moments of hope and goodness in the show. I actually find that the show is just not as relentlessly bleak as I'd hoped it would be. With the change in writing staff, I'm not sure what direction it will go from here.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The CDC thing really bothered me, but not because of the tone. It was because, again, scriptwriters proved completely unable to understand technology.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
You know, they could have spent that same time on finishing a major emotional story arc. I won't say which one, but there's a perfect one that's obviously right around the corner.
I would have bet money they would have ended on it. However... they did the CDC thing instead, and they didn't really do much with it. Why would you end the season that way? They wrote this before they knew they'd get renewed, after all! End with a punch.
End with what we know is going to happen. End with the confrontation between Shane and Rick that was so much better done in the comic. The final panel is the perfect way to end this season. The perfect way to make us want more. The perfect way to set the tone permanently.
And instead they dallied in the CDC. Some episodes I love this show, like episode 4, that seemed to have real conflict. Other episodes... man, why waste time with this?
I mean... if this was a regular episode of the series, not a finale, I wouldn't have much to complain about. It's not bad. This is going to be a Zombie Road Trip series, after all, and why not have some interesting stops?
But as a finale? There's a much better one, right on the page.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
My feelings on the final episode are that it wasn't bad. It would probably be more enjoyable if I wasn't aware of what SHOULD have been happening. And I agree that its weird to have a climatic moments in a zombie show that doesn't involve zombies.
Alot is being made of what the doctor whispered in Rick's ear. My guess is that he explained to Rick what really causes zombification because according to the comic, you don't have to be bitten to turn into a zombie. But if Rick learns that information NOW, then that may alter a later event that is connected to the whole Rick/Shane confrontation. Its a minor event but one that is atleast important emotionally.
I'm starting to fall out of love with this whole "new fresh story detours" idea. I mean, there's already A TON of material available in the comic and Kirkman isn't going to stop writing anytime soon. Stretch it out with new, inferior material is really screwing with the pacing for me. The comic is slow to begin with, "Zombie Road Trip" is a great description, so why not amp up the pacing and get us to the various good story arcs. Knowing where Season 2 ends and having seen the amount of added material already, I worry that next season isn't going to have enough good moments to keep an audience around. It did well this season and of course it did, its a tv show about zombies! But once the shine is off the walking corpses, will there be enough good emotional storytelling to keep this running for more than two or three seasons?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I actually quite like the Merle subplot, and I think the CDC thing would have been interesting if the show had done anything with it. A little hope would in fact be kind of nice, IMO.
I'm willing to bet that the doctor has told Rick that his wife is pregnant.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Not a fan of the Merle subplot, but I do like his brother. He can hang around for awhile.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Yeah, I agree with Tom on what the doctor told Rick.
I didn't like how they handled the CDC. Day 164 and he doesn't even know if it's a virus or not? Spilling acid on his samples? And all with the knowledge that in less than 24 hours, the entire building is going up in flames?
...never mind the fact that if it was actually 5,000 degrees F inside the CDC, our entire troop of friends outside it would have been melted by 1,000+ F temperatures. They were way too close.
One thing I liked about the show to that point was that it seemed like a reasonably realistic portrayal of what life in the zombie apocalypse might actually be like. They lost that angle with the CDC stuff, all for a bunch of "mad scientist" type cliches. Bleh.
Edit: Well, they'd already lost me a bit with the gang thing in the previous episode. It felt like a very artificial twist and reminded me that I was watching a TV show.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
Watched the whole 6 episodes over the past few days. Can't wait to see the next 13. I'm so glad this kind of series can finally be made. Fantastic writing (front-page opinions aside).
Biggest disconnect for me: The older blonde sister who was unable to let go of her little blonde sister, and in fact risk everyone's and her own life by sitting with her for a night. Almost everyone at the camp had family members die already. I would have thought the "shock" she underwent should have already happened with the initial fallout, and everyone should have come to terms with what happens when you lose a friend. What seems more realistic to me could be likened to a soldier's tendency to stave off the hard-hitting emotions while losing a comrade in the line of fire.
There's no grey area with infection. The arguments about "what keeps us human" or whatever make no sense to me after someone is infected. Like "burying our own" vs burning the "others". They were ALL human before, with families and hopes. Why treat them any different than your friend who gets infected? The logical approach is to recognize that as soon as they're infected, it's over, and treat all infected the same.
In my camp, a newly infected but still conscious human would be allowed to live out their life, but bound and quarantined. What's humane is not risking other survivor's lives for the sake of an infected. I'd make a painless suicide available to the victim followed by a knife to the back of the neck, severing the brain stem. I would think that after 6 months of surviving the zombie apocalypse, these folks would have already gone through this process multiple times.
I don't want to seem completely harsh, I'm just arguing for true realism as opposed to what seems more "dramatic" for television. I obviously can't complain too much because this is definitely the most realistic portrayal I've seet yet.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I can understand Andrea's grief after losing her sister. I can understand that desire to freeze time and just hold a loved one. Amy was all she had left in the world. Besides, one zombie can be easily put down by any of the armed members of the party. Its when they swarm and overwhelm that they become particularly dangerous.
As for burial, after an attack like that which isn't the last, its impossible to bury every body. But why not atleast bury former companions? Sure, they were all human once but they're still essentially strangers. On the field of battle, I imagine many soldiers would burn the enemy for practical reasons but sacrifice the energy to give their comrades a more respectful sendoff.
Infection plays a decent-sized role in the comics and if the show commits to showing that on some scale, we'll see that there's a payoff for those willing to take the risk and find a way to fight the infection.
I think your arguments make alot of logical sense, but I know I'd be far from logical in the face of an apocalypse. That emotional element is a big part of Rick's character. We're going to see him do plenty of stupid and risky things for the sake of his ideals and his desire to protect the group.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I guess I'd like to make the argument that my logical realism is somehow MORE humane and sympathetic than the "gotta do my duty" emotional risk-taking of Rick.
Also, don't get me wrong, I definitely can understand Andrea's grief after losing her sister. I just find it hopelessly stupid that she hadn't already dealt with the possibility of it happening. Even irresponsible! And the rest of the camp allowing it was also irresponsible.
"One zombie can be easily put down" could also be said "It only takes a drop of zombie blood to kill you". Cavalier attitudes get people killed.
As for how we treat our dead, is burying more respectful than burning? I'm getting my cultures mixed up. Either way, the actual point of taking care of the dead is to improve hygiene for the living. Rotting flesh stinks.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
While cremation has its place in western culture, burying a friend just seems more respectful than throwing them on a burning pile of half-rotted, recently walking corpses.
I think what makes the material interesting is that we have these characters will different reactions to the situation around them. Daryl, already over the "loss" of his brother, was ready to put Amy down and took issue with Andrea's course of grieving. I think Andrea and Amy's talk on the water mentioned that they didn't know what had happened to their parents so Amy is Andrea's closest family. The doctor also mentioned that reanimation times vary and can take hours. If she lost friends during previous attacks or while fleeing her home, she may not have been with them when they reanimated (if there was anything left to reanimate.) It could very well be the first time she's seen it happen. Having now been there and knowing how she reacted, it'll be interesting to see how she'll council someone else when it happens again.
And yeah, I'm with you on the humane bit. I sympathize with alot of Rick's choices even while cursing his stupidity for others. And sometimes his decisions, while seeming like a horrible idea, do have a good payoff. You're not meant to love every character and the decisions they make. They're going to make mistakes and do stupid things. You'll probably relate and sympathize with Daryl more than the other characters while I've always been a fan of Glenn and Andrea.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
(Of course, in the comics, Andrea's reaction to Amy's infection is quite different.)
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
If I'm in your camp and I'm infected, I'll be asking you to shoot me. Make sure it's a fatal wound please.
I would like to be cremated regardless of my zombie status. So, burn away.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm actually interested in seeing whether "infection" is actually necessary in the TV show. There's a pretty major plot twist in the comic that revolves around this point.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Tom, do you mind sharing? what was her reaction in the comics? I'm curious.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
In the comic, Andrea is a younger but harder character (and a surprisingly good shot), who reacts to her sister's infection and fatal wound by shooting her in the head almost immediately. She then cries about it at some length later.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
Now THAT is what I wanted to see, Tom. *grumbles about tv producers "improving" upon source material*
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I'll have to go back and re-read Amy's death. Personally, I'm okay with letting her later bad-ass personality emerge with time.
I do love how Andrea literally "becomes" her sister in the comic. Once Amy dies, the artist started using her character design for Andrea. I imagine it was partly a mistake and partly because Amy's look was more distinctive than Andrea's original design.
Tom, what didn't make sense about the technology in the CDC thing?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
1) The CDC has a giant wall-mounted counter that, in at least one mode, does nothing but count down to the second that the building's computers will initiate an automated "decontamination" of the building.
2) Because all decontamination is done by ridiculously destructive, uncontrolled fires (see the previous episode), the CDC has chosen to accomplish that by putting a fuel-air bomb in the basement that is triggered by computers.
3) The CDC has backup power and underground wiring. Presumably so do other federal installations. And yet not a single router permitting dedicated Internet traffic between installations remains online?
4) The giant countdown to "the moment we're out of power" does not speed up when the researcher turns on the giant overhead plasma screen to demonstrate trivial points, or when he uses his computer to do work, or when he leaves the server's audio interface running to monitor the commands of an empty room, or when everyone takes hot showers despite his warning to not exercise the hot water heater too much. This might mean that the generator draws a consistent amount of fuel at all times and supplies more than enough capacity to power everything in the building (and apparently cannot store any unused power in batteries), and that the countdown is to the moment that the fuel is gone -- but if that's the case, why walk around in the dark? Why not jerry-rig a battery for the excess?
5) An installation designed for long-term research that doesn't even have some solar on the roof? Heck, couldn't they steal solar panels from one of the many places in Atlanta that have them? And wouldn't that completely solve their problem, since the only problem is that they don't have enough power to keep things frozen and the air circulating?
6) Really? The only way to decontaminate the facility is to blow it up, hurling whatever doesn't die in the fire into the air? And destroying the facility in the process? You can't just walk around pointing a blowtorch at the samples you want to kill? I get that he didn't want to do a manual override of the countdown because he was suicidal, but surely someone could have pointed out that if he didn't blow up the building, they could probably find solutions to his fuel problems.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
Thanks for taking the time to post that, Tom. It makes me feel smarter.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Of all of those inaccuracies, #3 is the one that confused me the most - surely someone, somewhere, maintained hardline Internet connections between CDCs. I mean, I like things blowing up, so I was fine with explosive decontamination, and I wasn't paying attention to the counter anyway, so that didn't really register.
But the Internet, man. That grated. Especially in the face of global catastrophe.
It's not like the zombies could have turned off the routers.
But hey, I still liked the show.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Didn't he admit in the end that he did know what the other researchers were up to when he said the French were the last ones to hold up? That implies he was in contact with them.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Yes. That part, at least, I was okay with.
The rest of Tom's points, though, were bang on. I'm actually thinking of getting the #1-48 compendium of the comic and reading it.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Check out this music video I made from Days Gone By
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
The pacing is good. The only criticism I have is that it basically just follows the episode from beginning to end without really telling a unique story on its own. My favorite videos of this type focus on one particular element of a show to particularly match a song, rather than just matching the pacing a given story arc to a song's tempo.
That's more of a reason for it to be "good" rather than "great" though, so overall kudos!
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
That seems fair. For the first video editing I've ever done, I'll take it. Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
This is the only thread on the topic I could find. I just noticed something and felt the need to share. Morgan Jones (the father from season 1) is in Woodbury. I was just watching a rerun of last week's episode and he's shown extremely briefly. I've seen the actor in other shows and am confident it's him. Apparently it's already been announced that he'd return this season, but they haven't said when. Nobody seems to have noticed, judging from a quick Google search (the shot is very short).
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
That stands to jeopardize the show's firm "one black man with a name per episode" rule.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Do you remember what scene you saw him in?
Having him anywhere near Woodbury kind of destroys any adherence to his comic book storyline. Not that I'm surprised. I getting to the point with the show where I'm trying to decide if I get enough enjoyment out of yelling at my tv to make it worth the displeasure of yelling at my tv.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
I think it was during Andrea's motivational speech, but I'm not positive. It was definitely outdoors in Woodbury in the second half of the episode.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: That stands to jeopardize the show's firm "one black man with a name per episode" rule.
I've tried to watch this show but I just can't get into it. I've watched three eps of the first season and it just seems meh. Does it get better?
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by brojack17: I've tried to watch this show but I just can't get into it. I've watched three eps of the first season and it just seems meh. Does it get better?
In my opinion the third season is the best so far, with the first being the worst. So by that logic, it gets better. I think the writing staff changes a couple of times.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The first season is incredibly brief, it's almost hard to really call it a season. But I do think it gets stronger as it goes on.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I liked all the seasons.
My only major gripe about the show is that it would be so easy to kill zombies, just hop in a car, run them over twenty or thirty times, wha la. Preform que de gras as needed with a shovel. No muss, no fuss.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Coup de grace.
I only watched the first season. I heard the second season wasn't great, so I've prioritized other things.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Wha la" = voila, as well.
It's also worth noting that running over a human-sized object twenty or thirty times can do a number on your car.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I liked all the seasons.
My only major gripe about the show is that it would be so easy to kill zombies, just hop in a car, run them over twenty or thirty times, wha la. Preform que de gras as needed with a shovel. No muss, no fuss.
Yeah I guess, if they come at you one or two at a time, and you're always in your car, and you always have gas, and there's always a road.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
Heh. Zombies mucking up the wheel well.
My biggest problem is the super computer from the end of season one. It simply should not have been there, not to mention how hinky that whole setting and story was aside from the random AI.
I wouldn't mind seeing more of these "herds" that we saw at the end of season two, THAT is the true threat of the zombie apocalypse. And I am curious about how ransacked the world is one year later. How quickly did how much percent of the world/country/area become walkers? What percentage of people have to survive for how long before the average American town all plush extra food and supplies is left barren for the eventual survivors of the survivors?
SPOILERS Is it me or should that fence/gate have been much stronger considering its real world intended use? SPOILERS
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Twisted Metal.
Doing that though, may have bought them more time when they were being invaded on the farm. It would actually be pretty cool if you were able to attach a front that sort of splits them out and spares the front of the car. But they also could have crashed into each other if they were all just gouging the center of the herd.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
If they waded into the herd they would be likely to be killed. Somehow the Walkers have displayed an amazing amount of strength in the past when it comes to obstacles. In season one they just kinda forced their way past the doors of the department store. It stands to reason that they would break into the cars as they drove past and injure and or kill the drivers.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Wasn't that them collectively pushing on the door for a matter of minutes? And they're slow. As long as you don't get completely draped on a pile walkers, the cars would cut from one end of the herd to another in four seconds. Most of them that make major contact would be run over or bounce off the car.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
It's really as easy as a bulldozer and welding on some protective driver cage. Kill every single zombie you are near, and with those tank treads no worries about roads. Simply be careful not to run out of gas mid herd and you are all set.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
quote:Originally posted by brojack17: I've tried to watch this show but I just can't get into it. I've watched three eps of the first season and it just seems meh. Does it get better?
That's interesting. For me, the first couple of episodes were the only good ones. Then the beginning to season 3 was pretty great, but that's petered out into mediocrity as well.
Not nearly as good as the comics, or the game.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
This season has been very enjoyable & well done.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Agreed. It'll be interesting to see how they handle Alexandria. Especially given that every time the team stays in one place for too long, fans complain.
But really, you can only take the show so dark and have them be so far gone befor you have to try to inject some humanity back into them. I think its at that point.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I've never read the comics...but as a viewer I have no problem with a bit of safe & settling down. I think having to build a community (where anyone dies for ANY reason) is interesting enough! I sure hope it is as it seems and not another misdirect.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I've read the comics up to a point a little past this.
It gets interesting, and it's pretty unlike anything you've seen thus far.
I haven't ready anything from the last couple years yet. They're following the general plot, but a lot of the cast of characters is very different.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
As it should be...these things grow organically or die quickly.
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