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Originally posted by theCrowsWife:
I'll most likely be happy as long as they address the motivations and history of the big players in a reasonably believable fashion.

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And they won't explain them all, you know. They've said as much. The weird island is a backdrop for the story; not a plot element itself. Just like they don't explain how phasers work in Star Trek, they aren't going to explain why the Island moves in time and stuff like that.

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Originally posted by Uprooted:

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Originally posted by theCrowsWife:
I'll most likely be happy as long as they address the motivations and history of the big players in a reasonably believable fashion.

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Agreed--mostly. Some things will annoy me if they're not explained at least a little.

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Yeah, at the end of the last season I started on a list of questions I thought they needed to answer (at least a little), but I've largely forgotten what they were.

I think it would be interesting to try, as a group, to compile and prioritize such a list before the season starts.

So here's my first contribution.

1. Richard. Where did he come from? Why doesn't he age and what's his relationship to the others and the island?
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
OK, I posted that while Bella Bee was posting her list and I agree with everything on it.

I'm also really curious to find out whether/how the explosion at the the last season changed the course of events.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Also, what's up with the children? Why do pregnant women die on the island? Why is it that the lost children, Aaron, Walt, Sun's baby (I forgot her name), don't need to return with the adults.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
I know I'm the odd one out on this but I think the less they explain the happier I'll be. I really doubt I'll like any explenation of anything, and I think much of the appeal is the mystery. I'd be much more content seeing a future set-up that continues adventure and mystery. I'm not talking continue the show, but allow for the fictional characters to continue a life that I would find just as interesting.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 

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I want to know why Richard is immortal.

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I want to know what the numbers are all about and why they're cursed.

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I'd like to know what would have happened to everyone if they had never crashed at all.

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well, you'll never know that since we should all know by now that "whatever happened, happened". And seriously, do you really want the last 16 episode of the entire series dealing with an alternate plot line where these characters have never met, have never built these relationships with each other, and don't end up on the Island? What a terrible season that would be.

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1. Richard. Where did he come from? Why doesn't he age and what's his relationship to the others and the island?

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Why do pregnant women die on the island?

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I want to know what the numbers are all about and why they're cursed.

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Since they already addressed the numbers in the lost experience online stuff, I don't think they'll ever address it on the show. I'd check out the lostpedia numbers page if you want to know more. particularly read about the valenzetti equation.

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I'd like to know what would have happened to everyone if they had never crashed at all.

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well, you'll never know that since we should all know by now that "whatever happened, happened". And seriously, do you really want the last 16 episode of the entire series dealing with an alternate plot line where these characters have never met, have never built these relationships with each other, and don't end up on the Island? What a terrible season that would be.

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Why do pregnant women die on the island?

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I've always maintained this has something to do with Ben. Ben's mother died during her 6th or 7th month of pregnancy, and now no one on the island makes it past their 6th or 7th month of pregnancy. And we know this wasn't the case before Ben took over. Somehow he is either exerting an influence on the Island(whether consciously or not), or people on the Island are being punished for his leadership

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Originally posted by Strider:
One of the things I was disappointed with last season(for the most part i loved all of it) was finding out that Richard wasn't that "special". He's only immortal cause Jacob made him that way, and most of his knowledge comes from longetivity or time travelling Losties that tell him things.

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Originally posted by Strider:
The introduction of Jacob and Essau(are we still calling him that?) went a long way towards making me forget about that though.

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I'm calling him Esau still. Though at this point, I might as well call him Locke.
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
I don't plan to watch this season until the season is over, like I've done the last 3 years, but I'll chat until the season starts and the thread fills with spoilers.

I do expect to have some explanation for the island. There's a difference between knowing exactly how the TARDIS works, complete with engineering schematics, and knowing that it is a ship that travels in time and space, designed and built by Time Lords.

I expect to learn at least that much about this island or I fear I will be disappointed. The entire show has rested on the question: "What the he** is going on?" And that is precisely what I want to know.

When I read an interview about the show, they said the big questions would be answered. Minor questions might still be hanging, but the big ones would be resolved. So that's what I want.

IMO, the island is not a backdrop, it is the crux of the story.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 

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I always feel like, from a good storytelling point of view, if something's not on screen, it didn't happen.
Maybe it's explained online, somewhere that most people will never think to look, but it needs to be in the show or it doesn't exist for the average viewer.
One of my many, many issues with Heroes is that they keep setting up storylines and characters which are never resolved onscreen, only to put them in their comics instead, where most people will never know about them. It's a cheat.

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Yes, that would be horrible. But dual timeline storytelling or one episode addressing other possiblities would be interesting. After all, that's what they were suggesting when they dropped the nuke

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And Daniel, for all his doom-mongering, must have believed that changing things was at least a possibility, otherwise why try to drop the bomb at all?

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Hey, maybe the fact that the island is now radioactive will have something to do with it.

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Originally posted by Lisa:

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Originally posted by Strider:
One of the things I was disappointed with last season(for the most part i loved all of it) was finding out that Richard wasn't that "special". He's only immortal cause Jacob made him that way, and most of his knowledge comes from longetivity or time travelling Losties that tell him things.

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Funny, that was one of my favorite things.

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I'm calling him Esau still. Though at this point, I might as well call him Locke.

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The INCIDENT that was such a huge deal is in actually the Losties dropping the Nuke,

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The Incident, first mentioned by "Dr. Marvin Candle" in the Swan Orientation film ("Orientation"), was an electromagnetic anomaly that caused a catastrophic event at The Swan construction site. The Incident occurred on the fourth day following the Oceanic Six's return to the Island in July of 1977, when a drilling accident at the site of the Swan station unleashed a pocket of electromagnetic energy. While the Swan Station was originally being built to harness this energy, the DHARMA Initiative was forced to construct The Swan to contain the energy with large amounts of concrete, using the protocol to regulate the anomaly.

However, doubt has been cast on an electromagnetic anomaly being the cause of The Incident. It was briefly suggested by Miles that the survivors' plan to detonate the core of a hydrogen bomb (itself a fission bomb) at The Swan construction site might actually be the cause of The Incident, not the anomaly.

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Due to his discovery in Ann Arbor of a photo of the new recruits in 1977 including Jack, Kate, and Hurley, Daniel Faraday returned to the Island, and warned the survivors of a catastrophic event he believed was imminent. He convinced Pierre Chang that he was from the future and had knowledge of the accident, and he revealed to Jack that he believed it could be avoided by detonating a bomb, taken from Jughead's core, at the Swan construction site.

Upon his arrival at the Swan construction site on the fourth day after the survivors arrived in 1977, Chang tried to convince Radzinsky that drilling into the pocket of energy could unleash a catastrophic anomaly, but Radzinsky refused to cooperate. A violent struggle erupted, but Jack, Miles, Juliet, Sawyer and Kate gained the upper hand over Radzinsky's team, allowing Jack to drop the the plutonium core taken from Jughead into the drilling pit at the same time the construction team's drill hit the energy source

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Originally posted by Strider:
When did they do that Rabbit? Can you point me to something? What incident are you referring to? Why would they call the season finale "The Incident" if that's the case?

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And Chang would have lost his arm, once he was warned to stop the drilling, whether there was a bomb or not.

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:

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Originally posted by Strider:
When did they do that Rabbit? Can you point me to something? What incident are you referring to? Why would they call the season finale "The Incident" if that's the case?

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Well since the bomb detonated in the final instant of the final episode, everything that happened in the episode happened BEFORE the bomb detonated. Everything, hitting the pocket of energy, stuff being sucked into the drill hole, Chang's arm, everything.

And since it happened before the bomb detonated, we can be confident it would have happened if the bomb had never detonated. i.e. there would have been an incident, a major possibly catastrophically destructive incident even if the bomb had never gone off.

The order of events in the final episode very clearly left both options (original incident with bomb or original incident without bomb) open.

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Whether or not the nuke was part of the original incident is open for debate, but their is no question that the nuke did not cause the incident. Cause must precede effect.

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and what I am saying is that what you are calling the incident is only a cover, for what is in actuality the incident. Or putting it another way, Dharma lies and pretends to cover up the nuke explosion, focusing only on the first part of what happened when talking about the incident. Again, whether you want to call the event with the nuke the incident, doesn't change that the event was always part of the history of the Island. And if it was always part of the history of the Island, it can't very well reset time, since then the Losties would never be able to get to the Island, which is necessary for the event to happen!

You're also focusing only on this one event. What about all those other examples I brought up? Charlotte and Faraday, the communications on the sub. What about the fact that in attempting to kill Ben, Sayid actually helped start a series of events that are what made Ben the way he is? The time traveling Lock/Esau is what prompted Richard to be so faithful in Locke and his destiny on the Island. Ms. Hawking sent her son to the Island knowing a younger version of herself would kill him. etc...

I really thought they drilled this home pretty strongly last season.
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
I think it all depends on if this is the first time the nuke was detonated. In other words, was the nuke always part of the Incident scenario, regardless of Dharma's attempt to cover it up, or is it the case in this one instance that despite all the inevitabilities we saw in Season 5 (which they did drill into us quite a bit last season), the acts leading up to the nuke detonation was actually free will from all, or any, of the participants.

I don't think they've made it clear yet in this case, or maybe all the inevitabilities are a season-long case of "methinks you doth protest too much".
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Well you know my answer.

I don't believe in a first time through scenario, I think events happen once and only once in time. Even using the word "always" like I did in a few other posts is misleading, it implies a loop of some sort. Or an event that keeps happening over and over again. Take the compass exchange when Richard helps Locke and gives him the compass. We saw that scene twice on the show. But the event itself didn't happen twice, it's just that we as viewers were shown that scene twice. Richard couldn't have "changed" something that second time we saw the scene, because all that was happening was that the show was showing us a scene we had previously seen, from a different perspective. Why do time traveling Losties make any difference?

but it's worth pointing out that similarly to how religious folk believe god knows everything they will ever do, but that he still gives them free will to choose for themselves, characters(or people) can have free will in a deterministic setting.

I thought that was another thing they drove home pretty well in the season finale, every word out of a characters mouth was "choice". I think they really wanted us to understand that every action that was being taken was a free choice by the individual involved. And yet, all these free choices led to the events we knew were going to happen. It's only a coupling of the fact that these events are taking place out of order for characters experiencing them and the fact that we as viewers are privy to knowledge these characters don't have that we think their actions can "change" anything. Had we been told this story sequentially in time, these questions would have never even been brought up.
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
Except that as also has been discussed on the show, each person is in their own "present", regardless of the shared timeline. While it seems the default behavior of the lost universe is that what happens, has to happen, that doesn't mean that when a persons present occurs at an event that they have already seen/felt effects from, that they don't have free will to choose from different options.

Or maybe that's what is so novel this particular time, that somehow these "chosen" Losties were able to change reality. Which could be useful in interpreting the images of previously dead Losties in some of the promo material for season 6.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I'll point you to the last paragraph in my post above yours. They DO have the free will to choose their course of action. It just so happens that whatever they choose, is what brings about the future we know will occur. Yes, they are each in their own present, even though it's the Island's past, but if we look at these events from the standpoint of an outside observer, watching things sequentially through time, the losties appear at the island in Dharma time, do their thing, disappear from the island, crash land on the island years later, disappear from the island, etc...one time line...nothing to change, since there was not "first time" when things happened differently.

It's like saying that when you get in your car tomorrow morning you can "change" the future by making a decision to drive one way or another. that only works in a very specific definition of change. more accurately, you are "causing" a certain future to develop based on your actions. These losties, through their own free choices are causing a future to occur that we as viewers know will happen, even though the characters making the choices are either attempting to stop it, or attempting to bring it about, or don't care...whatever their each individual reasons are for making their decisions, they are not "changing" anything.

Anyway, i'm beating a dead horse with this one. You all know my views, and we'll see what happens in less than a month!!! Can't wait!

I do think there is a conversation to be had about the numbers, and the valenzetti equation, course correcting, Jacob's touching of all the Losties in their pasts, and Desmond's ability, and how all those things relate to each other. I have some thoughts I wrote up about them a while back, I'll dig them up and post them later. But I fully admit there is room for some of the stuff I am arguing against. I mean, Dharma's whole purpose was to "change" the numbers in the equation to prevent the end of the world from occurring. But what I find really interesting is this line:

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The numbers in actuality are said to represent human and environmental factors in the equation (given numerical form), though their precise meaning is uncertain.

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Rabbit, you seem to be confusing my labeling of the event with the bomb with the fact of the actual event. Whether you want to call the release of electromagnetic energy through drilling, The Incident, or whether it's really the nuke that is The Incident, my point is that the events as we saw them are what always happened. In a whatever happened, happened universe there is no "first time through", there is just what happened.

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You seem to have missed the point of those last two episodes.

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I would argue that you missed the point of the last two episodes!

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At numerous points in those last two episodes, the writers did things to raise the question of whether the time line could or could not be changed.

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I would argue that you missed the point of the last two episodes!

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Can you list some of them? I'm not trying to be difficult, I really didn't see any of these

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You are ignoring the obvious. Daniel shows up on the island and announces that he was wrong, that it is possible for people to change things, but only through something really major. Then the entire episode revolves around the question of whether he is right and detonating the bomb will change the timeline or detonating the bomb is simply one part of "what happened". They very obviously left that question open.

Consider this, Daniel wants them to detonate the bomb right when the drill hits the anomaly in order to prevent the incident from ever happening. If it had actually gone this way, and the episode had ended with the bomb detonating, we would be in a very different position.

By allowing the Dharma guys to drill into the pocket and showing us all the things happening that happened on the original time line, the authors were very cleverly demonstrating that there would have been an incident even if the bomb had not been detonated. In other words, everything we've seen in the show can be explained with out the bomb. There is no evidence that the bomb did or did not detonate on the original time line. Both options, one time line or two are still open.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
okay, thank you! You make some good points. I have some refutations! But I'll have to post them later tonight.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

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Originally posted by Strider:
Again, can you give me specific examples? If you honestly want to have a conversation about this and help me see your point of view, I need you to do more than repeat the same assertions. I'm open to different possibilities, but I would need my arguments convincingly refuted, I'm not just going to accept your statements that i'm wrong!

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Originally posted by Strider:
Actually, can you answer just one question for me rabbit before I respond? Do you beleive that there was an original time through that didn't involve time traveling losties?

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Maybe now the rules won't apply to anyone that was close enough to detonation.

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But, since all those other things I listed that were done by characters we know have always been part of the history of the Island, I don't really understand why the bomb detonating should be any different. Why is the bomb detonating not part of history like every other event we witnessed?

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Originally posted by Lisa:
Yes, but where did it reset from? Kate's (step)father sending his assistant to get blown up would have been before the (non)crash of Oceanic 815.

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So someone tell me, how can Juliette die in the past as a result of the whole explosion thing but be alive in the future living the events that happened after the Losties get to the island? Is time just some random series of events that do not happen sequentially any longer?

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Originally posted by Strider:
Don't forget flashbacks and Island induced visions!

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Because of this, I think there is one of two possibilites. Either the bomb that exploded in the swan was put there by Dharma after the incident, or it was already there when they salvaged the station. The second scenario would support the losties being in a time loop in which they continually go through the same scenario leading up to "The Incident"

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Originally posted by Wendybird:
So someone tell me, how can Juliette die in the past as a result of the whole explosion thing but be alive in the future living the events that happened after the Losties get to the island? Is time just some random series of events that do not happen sequentially any longer?

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Juliette comes to the island in ~2000. In 2004 she gets transported back to 1974. In 1977, she dies in a nuclear blast. On her personal timeline, her death comes after the events in 2004. It is all sequential for her.

In 1977, there are two Juliettes. A child living with parents who are getting divorced, and an adult working with the Dharma initiative on the island. The adult is killed, the child is not and lives to come to the island in 2000.
 

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Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
 
So basically its one big loop. She's born, she grows up and ends up on the island, she goes back in time and dies then is born, grows up and ends up on the island which transports her back in time where she dies again?
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
No... forget absolute time. Look at her timeline. She's born, grows up, ends up on the island, goes back in time and dies. Period. That's her timeline.

In our timeline, she comes into existence out of nothing at the age of around 30, lives a few years on the island, and then sets off a hydrogen bomb by hand and dies. A few years later, she's born, grows up and ends up on the island. She's there on the island until the time travel thing happens, at which she ceases to exist in our timeline.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Lisa's right, it's a big mistake to look at it as a loop. There is no loop except for the verbal one you have gotten yourself into.

Which, incidentally is a big problem I have with the compass from last season. The compass has no origin. At least none that we've seen. Locke gives Richard the compass in the 50s, and Richard seems to give the same compass to Locke in 2004, which Locke travels back in time with. The compass was never created. They very easily could have not created this paradox by Richard, either before or after Locke shows up with the compass in the 50s, attaining the "original" compass, giving that one to Locke in 2004, and retaining the one Locke gave him in the 50s.
 

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Posted by LargeTuna (Member # 10512) on :
 
*agrees with Lisa*

However I don't want Juliet to be dead at all! she's a good character. I still stand by that they should have killed of Kate, but I guess it wouldn't be believeble for her to sacrifice herself to try and push reality into a new timeline.

The only time loop I've seen is the compass between richard and locke. There is no start to the compass' timeline. Juliet is born. Thats a direct start to her life.

edit: haha strider you just beat me too it! same minute i think
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I win!
 

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Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
 
I've see parts of episodes on two separate occasions, so I have a pretty good idea of what's going on but I need to be filled ino some of the details.
I know there was a plane crash and the survivors ended up on some island somewhere. Then what?
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
that's it. The rest of the show is large scale backgammon tournament.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Juliet was great (and I liked the couple) but the end of the last season bugged the crap out of me. Every few seconds we get heroic musics and mystical looks as if to suggest she's transcended mere mortal reasoning in her desicions (in which she rarely participates but simply throws her loving husband who she no longer trusts despite all evidence and promise on his side) and then discover she's merely reversing her position once again, and again for no, or bad reasons.

Ugh.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Juliet was brilliant in Season 3, but I thought was mostly wasted in Season 4 and 5. Particularly 5.
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
In terms of the bomb, that is what I meant Rabbit. Think Pastwatch, but in Lost.

The bomb in the original timeline did not explode, and Dharma installed the bomb as a fail safe in case the "incident" ever happened again. This is why the hatch was detroyed when Desmond turned the key.

When the losties went back in time, they obtained the bomb and took it to the Swan, where they detonated it. The entire point of the bomb detonation WAS to create a paradox.

There is soemthing we do not know though. If the bomb was detonated and everything was "reset" then it completely nullifies everything that happened to the other group still in the future. This obviously would not make sense, so that is going to play into it somehow. Who knows? The bomb may not have reset anything, and perhaps the "incident" combined with the bomb created some space time rift that transports the losties in the past to the future where Jacob just died. Jacob may have been talking about Jack, Sawyer, and the gang when he said "They're coming!" right before he died.

I guess we don't know a lot about Jacob, but if he died in the future, shouldn't he still be alive in the past? Or is his existence constant? (I don't know if that is the right phrase to use)
 

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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 

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Which, incidentally is a big problem I have with the compass from last season. The compass has no origin. At least none that we've seen. Locke gives Richard the compass in the 50s, and Richard seems to give the same compass to Locke in 2004, which Locke travels back in time with. The compass was never created. They very easily could have not created this paradox by Richard, either before or after Locke shows up with the compass in the 50s, attaining the "original" compass, giving that one to Locke in 2004, and retaining the one Locke gave him in the 50s.

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Perhaps the compass is intentionally given as a clue that we are looking at time in the wrong way. What if time in this show is like a coil? If we look at the coil head on it looks like a circle with no beginning or end, but when you look at it from the side you realize that it isn't a single ring, but rather a series of connected rings that are slowly progressing in a certain direction... with a beginning and an end. So maybe the events depicted on the show have not just happened this one time, but are happening over and over again, slightly differently each time, making it slowly progress. At some point in the repeated cycle, a compass was created and was passed back in time into the next cycle, and thus got stuck in the repeat. That would make it appear, if you only look at just one cycle (much like looking at the coil head on), like the compass was a paradox. But once you raise the possibility that the cycle is slightly different each time, then the paradox disappears.
 

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Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
 
My head is starting to hurt. XD

Now that I'm completely caught up on this thread, I just wanted to say that I'm not tossing in my vote for any theory at this point. We'll be rewatching the last season soon (and hopefully will finish before the new one starts airing) and maybe then when it's all fresh I'll have something to contribute.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 

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Originally posted by Tresopax:

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Which, incidentally is a big problem I have with the compass from last season. The compass has no origin. At least none that we've seen. Locke gives Richard the compass in the 50s, and Richard seems to give the same compass to Locke in 2004, which Locke travels back in time with. The compass was never created. They very easily could have not created this paradox by Richard, either before or after Locke shows up with the compass in the 50s, attaining the "original" compass, giving that one to Locke in 2004, and retaining the one Locke gave him in the 50s.

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Perhaps the compass is intentionally given as a clue that we are looking at time in the wrong way. What if time in this show is like a coil? If we look at the coil head on it looks like a circle with no beginning or end, but when you look at it from the side you realize that it isn't a single ring, but rather a series of connected rings that are slowly progressing in a certain direction... with a beginning and an end. So maybe the events depicted on the show have not just happened this one time, but are happening over and over again, slightly differently each time, making it slowly progress. At some point in the repeated cycle, a compass was created and was passed back in time into the next cycle, and thus got stuck in the repeat. That would make it appear, if you only look at just one cycle (much like looking at the coil head on), like the compass was a paradox. But once you raise the possibility that the cycle is slightly different each time, then the paradox disappears.

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Esau: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Your still trying to prove me wrong.

Jacob: You are wrong.

Esau: Am I? They come, fight. They corrupt. They destroy. It always ends the same.

Jacob: It only ends once, everything else is just progress.

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I really do think this was a nod at the viewers as to what kind of story the creators were telling. I would argue that Jacob espouses the whatever happened, happened theory, though I'm sure some of you will disagree. But even if not, it would certainly imply there is no loop the characters are stuck in.
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
Actually, I was thinking that exchange could very easily support a theory like Tres' "spring coil" theory.

The idea is that things are iterating, but that there are side effects that can carry over into a subsequent iteration that will eventually stop the looping. So while in some sense, things loop, each instance of the loop is different. I find that perfectly satisfying as a solution.
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
That is how I read Jacob's statement as well. The statement wouldn't make sense otherwise.

Esau: Am I? They come, fight. They corrupt. They destroy. It always ends the same.

Jacob: It only ends once, everything else is just progress.

This to me sounds like there is a loop.

If this is a loop, what role would Jacob and Esau play in all of this?

It wouldn't suprise me if Jacob and Esau have a wager of sorts going on regarding the soul of man. Jacob believes that man is inherently good, and Esau that man is inherently evil. Perhaps this is a judgement of man. I don't know what kind of beings Jacob and Esau are, whether they be gods, aliens, Jesus/Satan, or whatever, but it almost seems like they are setting it up for something like this.

Esau is worried because in this latest iteration of the time line Jacob will finally win their wager or argument. He finds a loophole to dispose of Jacob and in the process proves to him he was wrong.

Ben looks like a Judas, a follower that became angry with the person he was following due to jealousy.

The last episode of the seaon ended with the inverted colors, which I think could respresent a shift in power from Jacob to Esau. With Jacob gone and not able to keep Esau in check he becomes the primary power on the island, free to do as he pleases. Just as Jacob guided each person to the island at some point in time, Esau may now be the one to shape what happens.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 

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Actually, I was thinking that exchange could very easily support a theory like Tres' "spring coil" theory.

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Agreed. Which is why we're still having this conversation.

quote:

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The idea is that things are iterating, but that there are side effects that can carry over into a subsequent iteration that will eventually stop the looping. So while in some sense, things loop, each instance of the loop is different. I find that perfectly satisfying as a solution.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bokonon:
Actually, I was thinking that exchange could very easily support a theory like Tres' "spring coil" theory.

The idea is that things are iterating, but that there are side effects that can carry over into a subsequent iteration that will eventually stop the looping. So while in some sense, things loop, each instance of the loop is different. I find that perfectly satisfying as a solution.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bokonon:
Actually, I was thinking that exchange could very easily support a theory like Tres' "spring coil" theory.

The idea is that things are iterating, but that there are side effects that can carry over into a subsequent iteration that will eventually stop the looping. So while in some sense, things loop, each instance of the loop is different. I find that perfectly satisfying as a solution.

---

There was a Star Trek TNG like this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geraine:

Ah who am I kidding. It may make for great TV, but it would be a HUGE cliffhanger with no resolution, and would make a lot of fans angry. It would be heralded as great TV, but the outrage would probably be worse than those Soprano's fans that got their cliffhanger ending.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bokonon:
Actually, I was thinking that exchange could very easily support a theory like Tres' "spring coil" theory.

The idea is that things are iterating, but that there are side effects that can carry over into a subsequent iteration that will eventually stop the looping. So while in some sense, things loop, each instance of the loop is different. I find that perfectly satisfying as a solution.

---

There was a Star Trek TNG like this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Strider:

quote:

---

Actually, I was thinking that exchange could very easily support a theory like Tres' "spring coil" theory.

---

Agreed. Which is why we're still having this conversation.

quote:

---

The idea is that things are iterating, but that there are side effects that can carry over into a subsequent iteration that will eventually stop the looping. So while in some sense, things loop, each instance of the loop is different. I find that perfectly satisfying as a solution.

---

So what resets the loop? Is it the nuke? Or will it be the series finale? will the series end with the crash of flight 815?

I think iterations are neat, but only in certain types of stories, for me this isn't one of them.

Geraine, i agree with what you said about Jacob and Esau's views of humanity. Though I wouldn't couch it in terms of good and evil. Rather, capable of redemption and being at peace, or greedy and corruptible.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Strider:
Geraine, i agree with what you said about Jacob and Esau's views of humanity. Though I wouldn't couch it in terms of good and evil. Rather, capable of redemption and being at peace, or greedy and corruptible.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geraine:
The thing with the Star Trek Episode however is that the characters slowly started catching on and they were finally able to free themselves of the loop. I haven't seen any indication of this yet. I guess they have 16 episodes to bring that into play, but it would seem a little rushed and out of place. It would make a great series finale however if they all discovered that they were stuck right at the end.

Ah who am I kidding. It may make for great TV, but it would be a HUGE cliffhanger with no resolution, and would make a lot of fans angry. It would be heralded as great TV, but the outrage would probably be worse than those Soprano's fans that got their cliffhanger ending.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bokonon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Strider:

quote:

---

Actually, I was thinking that exchange could very easily support a theory like Tres' "spring coil" theory.

---

Agreed. Which is why we're still having this conversation.

quote:

---

The idea is that things are iterating, but that there are side effects that can carry over into a subsequent iteration that will eventually stop the looping. So while in some sense, things loop, each instance of the loop is different. I find that perfectly satisfying as a solution.

---

So what resets the loop? Is it the nuke? Or will it be the series finale? will the series end with the crash of flight 815?

I think iterations are neat, but only in certain types of stories, for me this isn't one of them.

Geraine, i agree with what you said about Jacob and Esau's views of humanity. Though I wouldn't couch it in terms of good and evil. Rather, capable of redemption and being at peace, or greedy and corruptible.

---

There is no reset of the loop. Or even really a loop itself, if you want to take Tres' spring theory more literally. There is merely an exit condition, based on the results of each loop. Esau thinks the exit condition can never be satisfied, Jacob disagrees.

I think the nuke could have created the conditions for the exit condition. This season will be that revelation, as well as dealing with all the side affects. Why assume that stopping the loop inherently makes things better?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:

When the Losties are in the 1970s, they know they have moved back in time. They don't need to figure out they are part of a loop, they know they are in the loop. They need to figure out whether or not the loop can be changed.

In the Star Trek episode, its evident that the same conscious beings are being sent through the loop over and over again, which is why they have a shadow memory of it. There is not evidence, yet, that any of the people have actually been through the loop more than once, even though there may have been more than one loop.

Does that make any sense?

---

It makes sense. The only thing I would say though is that even though the Losties knew they traveled back in time, it would be part of the same reiteration of the loop they are stuck in. The time travel to the 70's is simply part of that reiteration, and could still be oblivious to the existence of the loop or coil.

One could argue Sawyer already saw evidence of a loop. While the Losties were time traveling, Sawyer stumbled upon Claire giving birth to Aaron. Any interaction may have changed the course of that time line. This would bring into play the possibility of different timelines, or iterations of the loop, existing.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
or back up the whatever happened, happened theory.

As viewers, we know that Sawyer never interacted with Claire and Kate while Claire was giving birth. And when he stumbled up on them, for whatever reason, through his own free will he decided not to interact with them. WE knew it wasn't going to happen because it DIDN'T happen. Sawyer doesn't know anything about that, but his free choice still led to the event occurring the way we knew it would!
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
Yes, but Daniel stated later he believed they COULD change the future. So Sawyer didn't make himself known, that's fine, that current timeline doesn't divert at that point. That doesn't mean it couldn't divert at another point.

Here is an example, Sayid shot Ben in the past, and Sawyer and Kate saved him. But in Season 2 after they had captured Ben he showed no sign of recognizing Sawyer, Kate, or Sayid. This would indicate that in the timeline that we have seen throughout the seasons, Ben was never shot.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I think they stated that Ben had amnesia or something after getting healed.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Yeah, Richard something about him "not remembering any of this afterwards".
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
I guess we have never seen Ben without his shirt on either, so we can't tell if he has a scar.
 

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Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
 
And even if he did remember, I wouldn't put it past him to act (quite naturally) like he'd never seen them before.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
What if the various ghosts/hallucinations on the island are some kind message being sent from a previous loop.

Christian Shepherd's ghost is there, because he was on the island in a previous loop. Maybe he pulled Claire away to protect her from getting wiped out in the next iteration.

Maybe there are even two different kinds of messages, those from people who want to prevent certain changes and those who want to cause them.

[ January 15, 2010, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
 

---

Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Traceria:
And even if he did remember, I wouldn't put it past him to act (quite naturally) like he'd never seen them before.

---

It doesn't even seem that odd that he wouldn't remember them. It was over 30 years ago and he was a kid. If I ran into my 6th grade teacher today, and she not only hadn't age a day in 30 years she was a few year younger, I'm not confident I'd recognize her. I'd be more likely to have a nagging feeling I'd seen here somewhere before than remember her.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Really? Your sixth grade teacher? Of all people, you see and observe your primary teacher more even than your parents. I think you'd remember. But anyway, these people were nowhere near as present in Ben's life during the Dharma times, so yeah, I can see him forgetting most of them- except perhaps for "Le Fleur," who was a big wig. Since he ended up recruiting Juliet later, it's safe to assume he probably recognized her and brought her to the island for a purpose related to his memory.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
You know, if I ran into two people on the street that looked just like my parents did in 1977, I'd be more likely to think, "Those people look surprisingly like my parents used to." than "Mom, Dad how did you get here?"
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
edit - In response to Orincoro

Or we take Richard at his word that Ben won't remember any of this.

Though I agree that Richard's statement is vague, and does leave some room for interpretation.

Personally, I would've preferred that Ben DID remember all of them. It makes all his actions so much more interesting!

[ January 15, 2010, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Strider ]
 

---

Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Rabbit- I see your point, but surely it would turn over in your mind for more than a minute or two. And if you lived in a magical place where time travel was being researched, then you might leap to some interesting theories, if you were so inclined.

What I'm more interested in is how they are plotting all of these time intersections. Do you think they are doing it on a big poster board with time lines and events crisscrossing? Do you think that's how they wrote the thing out so as not to create inconsistencies? And what happens if they want to change something important, do they have to find ways of going back and changing time again to make their new ideas work? It's a pretty twisted puzzle as it is, so I would love to know how it's being conceived- I suppose we'll have to wait for the making-of after the show is done.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Have you ever run into someone who remembers you but who you don't remember (or visa versa) . Have you ever run into someone whose face you remembered but you can't remember when and where you knew them?

Except for Sayid, we don't know how much Ben interacted with any of the losties before he was shot. He was a kid and they were adults so it wouldn't surprise me if their interactions were fairly minimal.

Time travel isn't the only weird thing about the island by far. Look at all the times the Losties brushed shoulders before they boarded flight 316. Ben could have know everything about the island's secrets and still not have suspect that they were time travelers rather than people he'd interacted with in one of his visits off island. Its not like we have any reason to believe he had ever met any other time travelers let alone interacted with them every day.
 

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Posted by Hume (Member # 11457) on :
 
Maybe it is just me, but I seem to remember an episode back in season 3 (a Juliette flashback episode) where someone comments that the reason that Ben pays so much attention to Juliette prior to the Oceanic crash is because Juliette reminds him of someone. I had assumed in the past that Juliette reminded him of the little girl that gave him the doll for his birthday, but perhaps it is because he remembers Juliette from the Dharma Initiative.

On a side note, has the show said anything further about that little girl since season 3?
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
No, they haven't. But they've not said anything about a lot of things since they were first brought up!
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
If Ben DID remember anyone, you would think it would be Sayid. If someone shot you, I think you would remember that. Traumatic experiences like that are not easily forgotten.

Rabbit, I don't know if the "phantoms" that have appeared to certain people are of those from different timelines. I suppose they could be. I was under the impression that they were a product of the smoke monster/Esau. Mr. Ecko comes to mind. He followed his brother's ghost, who told him he was to be judged. He was then killed by the smoke monster. This leads me to believe the phantoms are all Esau attempting to find his "loophole" until he finally is able to obtain it through Locke and Ben.

I'm going to hate it if in the last episode we find out it was all just a dream. Evangelion was like that and I hated it >.<
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geraine:
If Ben DID remember anyone, you would think it would be Sayid. If someone shot you, I think you would remember that. Traumatic experiences like that are not easily forgotten.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Strider:
doc, they answered that in one of the online mystery puzzles. After you decoded a few anagrams, went to a special webpage, called a secret phone number, and set your little Orphan Annie decoder ring to the correct setting, you find out that The Others real purpose on the Island is to collect hairbrushes. It's convoluted, but it's all tied into ancient Egyptian prophecies.

---

Please tell me this doesn't mean they are going to start playing childrens card games.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lisa:
Hairbrushes would create static electricity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lisa:
Hairbrushes would create static electricity.

---

Amazingly, that's much less of a problem on a humid tropical island.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1PAB6Sgdp8

A song about the unanswered questions on Lost.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pepek:
http://worstpreviews.com/headline.php?id=16598&count=0

---

quote:

---

And Jacob’s conversation with Hurley in the taxi cab would imply to me Hurley IS in fact communicating with the real Charlie.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Uprooted:

quote:

---

And Jacob’s conversation with Hurley in the taxi cab would imply to me Hurley IS in fact communicating with the real Charlie.

---

Remind me -- what did Jacob say to Hurley in the cab? (I'm still in total denial over Charlie being dead.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Strider:
I think it has more to do with Ben's loss of innocence that occurred when he was brought to The Temple. But I could be wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leonide:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Strider:
I think it has more to do with Ben's loss of innocence that occurred when he was brought to The Temple. But I could be wrong.

---

If that's true, then it'd be a real shame. It's not like Ben asked to get shot, or be healed. He's going to be "punished" (if not being spoken to or cared about by Jacob is truly a punishment) for the rest of his life because some time-traveling schmucks tried to save his life? I hate the hooeyness of statements like "loss of innocence," anyhow. Pretty sure Ben was already messed in the head before he was healed, and if his "loss" only involves him being healed unnaturally, my sympathy would lie with him.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dobbie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Uprooted:

quote:

---

And Jacob’s conversation with Hurley in the taxi cab would imply to me Hurley IS in fact communicating with the real Charlie.

---

Remind me -- what did Jacob say to Hurley in the cab? (I'm still in total denial over Charlie being dead.)

---

I think he said something like "Our lives aren't really all that interesting. I can't believe anyone would actually spend an hour of their lives watching us."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leonide:
Hates Doctor Who, hates Lost -- we must be approaching the Robot Apocalypse. Next you'll be hating on pizza and kittens.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dobbie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leonide:
Hates Doctor Who, hates Lost -- we must be approaching the Robot Apocalypse. Next you'll be hating on pizza and kittens.

---

I never said anything about Doctor Who.

---

Not in this thread, no.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Did no one else feel flashbacks to Narnia durring the Jacob slaying of '09?

Hobbes
 

---

Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Why does Jacob allow(and bring about) his own desmise?

Jacob obviously has knowledge of future events. He is there when Locke is thrown out the window. He is there to stop Sayid from crossing the street when Nadia is killed. He is there when Kate gets in trouble as a child. He's waiting for Hurley outside of the prison. And even as he is killed he warns Esau that "they're coming".

So given his foreknowledge of all these events...why does he take so many steps that in the end bring about his own death.

The simplest one is that his saving of Locke's life after Locke has been thrown out the window leads to directly to Esau being able to take Locke's visage after he is killed and brought back to the Island. But more subtly, he helps Sayid get back to the Island, and Sayid ends up shooting Ben leading to Ben needing to be healed by the Island, and helping to create the person that kills Jacob later.

On a side tangent, I find it fascinating how all the Losties pretty much in some way had a hand in creating Ben. Sayid shoots him. Jin, brings him back to the Dharma. Jack refuses to fix him. Sawyer and Kate bring him to the Natives. Each of those actions allowed Ben to be "changed" in the Temple. And each of those people was interacted with by Jacob at some point in their lives.

So what is Jacob's purpose in his actions? When Locke and Ben first enter his dwelling he says something about how it takes a long time to weave a tapestry. Esau has been weaving his own manipulation for many years, but Jacob has also been weaving his own thread. To what purpose?

Rewatching season 5 I was struck by how masterful Esau's manipulation was. So masterful that it turns out Richard is just another pawn in this manipulation. Locke's appearance in the 50s is what originally makes Richard believe he's special. Locke came to that meeting armed with knowledge that Richard from 2007 gave him. And Richard was only able to give him that knowledge because Esau in the visage of Locke gave it to him.

I'm curious though, if Esau knows where Jacob lives in the 1800s(when the Black Rock is coming in), how come he doesn't seem to know where Jacob lives in 2007?
 

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Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leonide:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dobbie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leonide:
Hates Doctor Who, hates Lost -- we must be approaching the Robot Apocalypse. Next you'll be hating on pizza and kittens.

---

I never said anything about Doctor Who.

---

Not in this thread, no.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dobbie:
Does Dr. Who have to renew his medical license when he regenerates?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dobbie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dobbie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dobbie:
Who's Matt Smith.

---

Note the lack of a question mark.

---

Get it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dobbie:
That's everything I've posted about Doctor Who.

---

quote:

---

Widmore: I didn’t murder her at all, Benjamin. You did.

Ben: No, that’s not true.

Widmore: Yes Benjamin, it is.

---

Later, when we see the flashback where Ben is supposed to kill Rousseau, Widmore indicates that Alex was supposed to be killed. If that is the case, then was Alex always supposed to die, and thus her death was the universe course correcting? If so, then Widmore really didn't break the rules right?

-When Claire meets with the psychic he tells her a nice couple in LA will raise her baby. She says she doesn't want strangers to raise her baby to which the psychic replies, "they're not strangers". Then later, Jack and Kate end up raising Claire's baby in LA!

-Bernard to Jin: This is all about karma jin. You make bad choices, bad things happen, you make good choices, good things happen.

If Rose and Bernard are Adam and Eve I think we should really pay attention to this sentence as really important to the show.
 

---

Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
Except of course, that sometimes the characters make bad decisions and good things happen, and vice versa.


Also, this:

quote:

---

a nice couple in LA

---

is a dubious description of Jack and Kate.

[ February 02, 2010, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: Leonide ]
 

---

Posted by LargeTuna (Member # 10512) on :
 
*some spoilers from the premier*

I didn't like it so much. There was so much going on with very little explanation or reason to be attatched. My favorite episodes have been the ones like when desmond had to find his constant (penny), and when charlie had his greatest hits and even some of the more touching Sun/Jin episodes. I'm a sucker for the emotional side of the show, and I just felt almost nothing throughout the episode. I'd rather have good writing than many exciting things happening at the same time. Sawyer yelling about killing Jack made it hard for me to even sympathy for him when Juliette died. They keepwriting out all of the people I care about. I didn't even care when Sayid ended up living at the end

I liked the moment Locke and Jack shared in the airport, I liked Richard throwing around Ben a little bit, and I liked when Hurley talked to Jacob.

I think this was my least favorite season premier so far. Hope the whole season isn't like this.
 

---

Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
The show has always had a balance between the emotional, character-driven episodes and the plot-mystery driven ones. Did you know that the creators are quoted as saying the flashbacks are done with for the duration of the show? So no more "where I came from/what made me this way." I guess they figure we should have a handle on the characters by now.

A few thoughts I had about tonight:

1)Dead is Dead. The Temple people pronounced Sayid dead and then Jack did, and then...he woke up? Here's my interpretation: the Temple folk said the water had changed colors. I think Jacob's essence had seeped into the water after his death, and when the Temple folk held Sayid's body underneath as Sayid died, Jacob was able to use him as a vessel. So now Smoke Monster/Man in Black = Locke, and Jacob/Man in White = Sayid. Just a theory...

2) I think there's an alternate time-line that was created when the bomb detonated (Juliet's "It Worked") and sealed the rift that the original "wheel spin" created. Now everyone is back where they're "supposed" to be, and the paradox has been corrected that came about when the LaLosties et. al. went back in time. So the time-line split in 1977 -- in one line, the Island blew up, the "time travelers" went back, and everyone on the Island perished ---- but everyone who'd been evacuated (Chang, for instance, and Ben and Ben's father, etc.) is safe and alive somewhere, presumably. In the other time-line, well -- everything happened as it always happened. Whatever happened, happened. And now they're on the Island trying to keep LockeMonster away with cigarette ashes and flares.

3) Is Desmond timeline jumping? An exciting prospect that I hope becomes realized in an awesome way. I always adore his episodes.
 

---

Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
When Charlie said "I was supposed to die," do you think there was more significance than a death wish?

Island Kate is annoying, but fugitive AltKate is pretty entertaining.

Christian Shepherd is missing. Interesting.

What chains was Richard in that FauxLocke was talking about? And man, FauxLocke so put the smackdown on Richard.

Who are the temple people?

Doc Artz was back! Or AltArtz, anyway. And as annoying as ever. And who was the weedy guy who had the eye mask on in the plane and gave AltKate a hard time about cutting in the taxi line? Was he the guy who got sucked into the jet in the pilot?

Speaking of pilot, that was Greg Grunberg as Captain AltNorris. Bummer that they didn't show him, but his voice was pretty clear.

AltJin is back to being a douche. That's sad.

I guess that could have been real Desmond jumping, but he honestly didn't seem to recognize AltJack, so I don't know.

And the change isn't just that the plane didn't crash. Something changed way earlier. Because AltHurley apparently didn't have the string of bad luck after winning the lottery that Hurley did. Did Jacob cause the bad luck? Was Jacob erased retroactively from the alt timeline?

And how did Juliette know that it worked?

And AltKate and AltClaire. That should be interesting.
 

---

Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:
When Charlie said "I was supposed to die," do you think there was more significance than a death wish?

---

quote:

---

And the change isn't just that the plane didn't crash. Something changed way earlier. Because AltHurley apparently didn't have the string of bad luck after winning the lottery that Hurley did. Did Jacob cause the bad luck? Was Jacob erased retroactively from the alt timeline?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:
What chains was Richard in that FauxLocke was talking about?

---

quote:

---

And who was the weedy guy who had the eye mask on in the plane and gave AltKate a hard time about cutting in the taxi line? Was he the guy who got sucked into the jet in the pilot?

---

quote:

---

And the change isn't just that the plane didn't crash. Something changed way earlier. Because AltHurley apparently didn't have the string of bad luck after winning the lottery that Hurley did. Did Jacob cause the bad luck? Was Jacob erased retroactively from the alt timeline?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Strider:
There were other changes to the time line as well:

-charlie swallows his drugs instead of flushing them
-Cindy, the stewardess, gives jack one bottle of liquor instead of two
-Jack is nervous, while Rose is calm
-Boone came back from Australia alone
-Sun may or may not speak English
-Hurley is lucky
-and of course, Desmond is on the plane(though I like Leonide's idea of a timeline hopping Desmond).

No time now, but I'll post actual thoughts later!

---

Also...Michael and Walt may not have been on the plane in the alt timeline.

The easy explanation, of course, is that the actor who plays Walt is far too old and too different looking for them to have appeared. But it may also be a relevant plot point. Never can tell with Lost.
 

---

Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
I didn't really like the episode. It could have something to do with me being sick as a dog, so I may have to watch it again. It just seemed to be boring. The only interesting parts to me was the "Bizarro" timeline. I wouldn't have minded if the entire episode had been in that time line instead of 2007.

I do wonder who the people at the temple are. They seem to know more about Jacob than the others did. The Japanese man seems to be their leader, which would indicate to me that they are not "Others" but another group. Richard is more than likely someone from this group.

It did seem a little strange that the same ruins that leads to Jacob's temple is the same place the Locke-ness Monster hangs out in. (That's what I've started calling him )

I was utterly dissapointed in Juliet's death, but I am sure we will somehow see Bizarro Juliet in the alternate timeline.

Was it just me or did it seem like the 2 hour Premier took up only about an hour? It seemed we got 5 minutes of show for every 5 minutes of commercials. Maybe that is what ruined the experience for me.
 

---

Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 

quote:

---

Also...Michael and Walt may not have been on the plane in the alt timeline.

---

Or Eko, Libby, Ana Lucia, or for that matter Nikki and Paulo (wouldn't that be nice...)

quote:

---

But why, if the note said that they were all in trouble if Sayid died, was he allowed (helped) to die?

---

quote:

---

Hello Templies!
Do You See The Following Persons?
(list of names)
If so, good!

Also, if Sayid is dying, heal him.

Ta Very Much,
Jacob

---

quote:

---

"Dead is dead" -- that's surely not Sayid who just woke up. Jacob? Could be. But why, if the note said that they were all in trouble if Sayid died, was he allowed (helped) to die?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by theCrowsWife:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:
What chains was Richard in that FauxLocke was talking about?

---

I took that as confirmation of the theory that Richard came to the island on the Black Rock, a slave ship.

--Mel

---

quote:

---

Since the Island is buried under water we have to assume that the nuke destroyed the Island. This would kill Eloise and unborn Faraday, it would kill Widmore and yet to be born Penny, it would kill Chang(who did not evacuate Leonide), and little Ben and Roger, all of Dharma, all the Others...

---

quote:

---

(Damon Lindelof):Should you infer that the detonation of Jughead is what sunk the island? Who knows? But there’s the Foot. What do you get when you see that shot? It looks like New Otherton got built. These little clues [might help you] extrapolate when the Island may have sunk. Start to think about it. A couple of episodes down the road, some of the characters might even discuss it.

---

quote:

---

Unsurprisingly, I loved every second of the on Island scenes, and was really unhappy with the alternate time line scenes. Interestingly, I actually enjoyed the alttime scenes themselves, I'm just unhappy about their very existence.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LargeTuna:


I didn't like it so much. There was so much going on with very little explanation or reason to be attached.

---

This has been the case for the entire run of the show. The difference in the past has been that there were at least some compelling emotional stories and conflicts. The current conflict, or rather lack of any cohesive reason for *anything* is the problem.

It was totally sub-par. The constant harping on self important "mysterious" characters and oblique dialogue mazes has worn through the story to the point that it seems the writers can't help but write every scene as if they were trying to tell a story through overheard phone conversations. It's all a gimmick because there was never any depth or promise in the mythology anyway, but now they've forgotten how to interest the viewers in any of the perill they create. I watched and just thought, "who cares." Not me.
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
The Desmond thing was a little confusing, because when Jack met him in the Swan, he recognized him immediately.

And Shannon isn't on the plane with Boone.

I'm glad we finally got to meet the real Others, and I'm enjoying the new timeline.

And you would think the people who are adopting Claire's baby would at least come pick her up at the airport!
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Frisco, I guess in this timeline Jack never met Desmond at the stadium. It's just one of many differences.
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
Also, what's up with Jack having the blood on his neck when in the bathroom?
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Guys, the more I think about it, the more I think my theory about Juliet from above is accurate. Especially if Leonide's theory about Desmond time line jumping is correct. Since it seems like Desmond's experience with the failsafe might be similar to Juliet's experience with the nuke.
 

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Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
 
Anyone notice Sayid's accent was different when he woke up?

Good gravy, the premiere had an annoying amount of commercials. I honestly wonder if it was really significantly longer than a "standard" episode.

And I would really like it if occasionally we could run into a group of people that didn't have violent hostility towards apparently unarmed and harmless people as a baseline.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Sterling, that had always been my problem with the Others. If they're really in Jacob's favor, why are they such bastards?
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
Is Jacob definitely *not* a bastard? (i actually mean this question seriously -- he's still a manipulator, even if he ostensibly has hope for humanity)

Screen Shots of the Underwater Portion

If you look at the shots, there's nothing that necessarily shows that the island lasted past the Jughead -- that is, there's nothing in the images that came into being *after* the Incident. The sonic fence is there, Otherton, the statue leg, even the swingset. The only thing that might give a hint as to how long ago the Island fell into the sea (Atlantis, much?) is that....what, the Dharma shark is still swimming around 20 years later? Maybe a bit far-fetched. Sharks are not that territorial, so even if he had lived that long (possible, but the average life-span is under 25 years for a shark)what's he still doing sticking around? Any of this might be chalked up to the nature of the Dharma Initiative's experiments, but it's at least a thought.

[ February 03, 2010, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: Leonide ]
 

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Posted by daventor (Member # 11981) on :
 
I REALLY enjoyed the season premier and love the alt-timeline concept. But, yeah, the only thing that really bugged me were the scenes with the other Others, not so much due to the violent hostility (though I agree with Sterling on that), but moreso because of their refusal to explain anything to anyone. "Why, yes, I suppose I could explain to you that the pool is meant to heal Sayid, and that being underwater is part of the process, or I could tell you Jack why I want to have a conversation with you, but instead I'd rather be silent, wise, mysterious, and REALLY FRIKKIN' ANNOYING!"

That kind of keep-the-suspense going does get to feel really gimmicky after a while.
 

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Posted by daventor (Member # 11981) on :
 
Oh, and just a couple of impressions:

I was actually surprised how much fun I had watching Sawyer back in full-on-jerk mode in the alt-time line. As far as the regular Sawyer, I'm really glad the "I'm gonna kill him" didn't become the actual storyline, otherwise, yeah, it'd be hard for me to keep up sympathy for Sawyer. Also, I wonder why Juliet told Sawyer she wanted it to be that he never came to the island. His life was pretty much plain crap before it.

I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for alt-Kate. Girl, you MURDERED a guy. Yeah, he was a bad man, but it was still a MURDER. Face the consequences instead of causing harm to innocent people all the time as you try to avoid arrest (that's the main part that bugs me about her running from the law).

Explanations I hope they'll cover but fear they won't:
-In an earlier season Juliet hinted that she had done something really terrible in her past and didn't deserve sympathy. What was it?
-What was the psychiatrist lady's (who was in the asylum with Hurley, then gave the boat to Desmond, then was murdered in Season 2) story and connection to it all?
-What changed Daniel Farraday's mind about being able to alter time (actually, I think there's still a good chance this will get covered)?

Final thoughts: I REALLY, REALLY hope Ben dies before this season is over. After so many good characters have died really tragic, horrible deaths (though with Lost you can never know for sure if they're dead-dead) I'll be really ticked if that psychopathic rodent is still breathing when it's all done.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 

quote:

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Also, I wonder why Juliet told Sawyer she wanted it to be that he never came to the island. His life was pretty much plain crap before it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by daventor:
But, yeah, the only thing that really bugged me were the scenes with the other Others, not so much due to the violent hostility (though I agree with Sterling on that), but moreso because of their refusal to explain anything to anyone.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sterling:
And I would really like it if occasionally we could run into a group of people that didn't have violent hostility towards apparently unarmed and harmless people as a baseline.

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It's like the Man in Black said: "Get used to disappointment."

Oops -- wrong Man in Black.

What I actually meant to say was: "They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt."

Just because they're on Jacob's side doesn't mean they're good people -- Jacob's been trying to prove the MiB wrong for centuries.
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Frisco:
I like how Hurley's so comfortable talking to dead Jacob.

"I died an hour ago."

"Sorry, dude. That sucks."

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Hurley is one of the few characters I absolutely care about. If Jack or Kate died before the end of the show, I'd get over it pretty quickly, but if Hurley ever died, I would be angry. Hurley has progressed from a guy that thought he had bad luck and mental disabilities to someone who has accepted who he is. Libby helped him in this manner and to a lesser extent Charlie. It almost makes me wonder if Libby knew about Hurley's gift. I think Hurley was not alarmed when Jacob showed up because he has accepted who he is.

I think that since Hurley has the power to see and speak to dead people, Mile's power is just a weak copycat. I foresee his demise in a future episode.

Now Desmond ... That is a little more difficult. I think I agree with Desmond traveling between the different time lines trying fix things.

Does anyone see any similarities between this show and JJ's other show Fringe? Alternate timelines, people that can travel between them trying to fix things(Desmond/Olivia), and some mysterious guy that shows up every once in a while and keeps tabs on people.

I think it would be funny if at some point we find out that the Dharma Initiative became or was funded by Massive Dynamics.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Okay, some new thoughts. For anyone that read that huge post of mine where I talk about Jacob and Esau, you'll remember I talked about Jacob's ability to see the future, his interference in people's lives, and its relationship to course correcting. Also, on this page I talked about the degree of specificity involved in Jacob's knowledge to have that List ready for the Other Others given how many events(including time jumping) occurred before the Losties could arrive there.

So given that, I just had another thought occur to me. Jacob saved Sayid's life when Nadia was run over by the car. Maybe Sayid was "supposed" to die, but Jacob's interference allowed him to live long enough to come back to the Island, and when he was dying again Jacob was able to use his body as a vessel. So the universe course corrected, but Jacob's action was able to make enough of a change that Sayid's death filled a greater purpose, similarly to how the universe kept course correcting for Charlie, but though Desmond's actions Charlie was able to stay alive long enough to fill an important purpose.

Even if Jacob is not Sayid, I do think there is something more to the fact that Jacob saved Sayid's life and Sayid's current situation in the Temple.

Also, Sterling, I just rewatched that end scene, and I think you're right. Sayid DOES seem to have lost his accent.
 

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Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
Oh dear, I love Sayid's accent. I didn't notice it but if he's now going to sound like Jacob, I'll be sad. Esau looks and sounds just like John Locke.

Does anybody remember or has anyone re-watched the scene where Sayid was talking to Hurley outside the van? I think Hurley had been reassuring him that he'd be fine. Sayid then talked about the torturing and murders he'd done and said he didn't think wherever he was going would be a very nice place. But he said something immediately before that which apparently introduced that line of thinking and I didn't catch what it was. Did he ask Hurley to do something for him? Anyone?

I think the whole idea of Jacob interfering with Sayid's death for long enough to get him to the island to die w/ a purpose makes sense. I also think the theory that Juliet was seeing altSawyer and altJuliet makes a lot more sense out of her comments than I was able to come up w/ on my own.

And I love the idea that Hurley has come into a full form of the ability that is only hinted at in Miles.
 

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Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
 
Am I the only one who thinks that alt-Jack (in the plane didn't crash storyline) remembers everything about the island and crash? Everything about how he behaved on the plane and how he looked at all of the survivors showed recognition. I think Jack is going to be the big link between the time lines, along with Desmond.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
uprooted, I think it was just something along the lines of "where do you think I'll end up".

solo, it does seem like Jack has some sort of recognition, but I don't really think it's quite as much as you say. More like deja-vu, than memory.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
also, Miles' ability and Hurley's are different enough that I think they serve different functions. While Hurley is able to have full conversations with people, he has to wait for them to come and talk to him. Miles is limited in the amount of information he can get, but as long as he is near the body, he seems to be able to access that information at will.

It seems like Miles' ability works along the lines of a mix of consciousness jumping and time jumping. Consciousness because he is able to access their thoughts, and time jumping because it's only at a specific time right before death.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Strider:

Also, Sterling, I just rewatched that end scene, and I think you're right. Sayid DOES seem to have lost his accent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leonide:

quote:

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Originally posted by Strider:

Also, Sterling, I just rewatched that end scene, and I think you're right. Sayid DOES seem to have lost his accent.

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I think that's just a trick of the nature of the words -- in the Sneak Preview (you might have to watch a promo first) he sounds the same.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Strider:
solo, it does seem like Jack has some sort of recognition, but I don't really think it's quite as much as you say. More like deja-vu, than memory.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by docmagik:
I'd have a hard time buying it if they tried to reveal later that Jack remembers everything. He's too anxious to get his father's funeral over with, like he would have been in the original timeline, but I don't think he'd still have been in as much of a hurry if he remembered the alt timeline, where the funeral already took place and he'd had that closure.

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quote:

---

Not only do we find out that MIB played him as much as his Dad did, but there's the possibility that he could have got just as healed by Jack (the guy he's been fighting) as the island healed him, without having to get played.

That is a HUGE punctuation mark at the end of his story arc if it turns out to be true. To me, it was the biggest twist, and most jaw-dropping moment of the premeire. Amidst all the questions about the smoke monster and time travel and who is making the food drops, to me one of the biggest questions of the show has been, "Is Locke's faith going to pay off?"

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quote:

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Originally posted by solo:
Charlie taking his drugs in the alt time line could just have more to do with the less severe turbulence - that would explain his different choice.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Reader:


The whispers apeared again. In my opinion, they are now the biggest mystery, because they don't even seem to have an origin or explanation.

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quote:

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Smokey is very close to being explained. I used to scoff at this, but it may very well be an alien, and the Island is its ship.

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I would argue against this unless you assume that Jacob is also an alien. Though even then, I would argue against it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lisa:

quote:

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Originally posted by solo:
Charlie taking his drugs in the alt time line could just have more to do with the less severe turbulence - that would explain his different choice.

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He didn't take them. He tried to swallow the baggie, like a drug mule. He may not be an addict at all in the alt-timeline.

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quote:

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While I agree they're still a huge mystery, reading the transcripts of what's actually said gives some huge clues as to their nature. Go to Lostpedia and search for "whisper transcripts".

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I've read the whisper transcripts, but not the most recent ones. And they don't make any sense out of context, in my opinion.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I remember that some of them were exact lines that we later learned were said 30 years earlier (or possibly at random moments when the group was time jumping). Implication being that the whispers are just a result of temporal distortion.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
This seems to have some pretty strong overtones of Christianity to me. Maybe I'm the only one, but having "the one who will save us" killed by his arch-nemisis who seems to represent death and destruction through one of the choosen acolytes ... well it could just be projection of stories but it seems like it's strong theme to me. Made much stronger if Jacob comes back as Sayid, but even if not my guess is he will return at some point (not as a ghost).

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Many of them seem to be said by character who are dead. A salient example is one of the whisper transcripts that takes place at the beginning of season 2, when Shannon and Sayid are in the jungle. The transcript seems to be Boone talking about how being dead sucks and wanting to talk to his sister.

Many of the other transcripts seem to be characters talking about the person in the woods hearing the whispers. Often times discussing this person's knowledge and whether they should present themselves to them.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Hobbes, there are strong overtones of EVERY religion, not just Christianity, that's whats so great about the show. Though I'd argue that eastern religions are referenced more than western ones. In fact, the heavy references to purpose and karma throughout the series, Sayid's questioning of where he would go because of all the acts he committed, and his subsequent death and rebirth seems to have more significant overtones of Buddhism or Hinduism. And lets not forget references to Shambala or the Tibetan reincarnation test that Richard administers to young Locke as well.

Anyway, my point is that they reference everything from religion to mythology to literature, and I would doubt any one book or religion serves as the base for the entire story. Though, if anything, they've referenced the works Stephen King more than any other single thing on this show.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
That's a fair point Strider, and I have to say something I've appreciated this show for. Actually, I really like that they treat Christianity as any other religion instead of constantly trying to show how diverse they are by making clever reference to the supremacy of other religions over it. None the less, it seems like this plot line is dominated by Christian themes; and this seems like the 'dominate' plot line. Not in the sense that it gets more air time or is more important for the character's individual journeys but since it deals with the guys with the power, it controls the destinies of the most people.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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I am still not convinced Jack has a knowledge of the crash in the bizarro time line. I think it is more like the Star Trek episode with the time loop. Jack has a strange sense of deja vu but not an exact knowledge of why.

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quote:

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I have to agree. Jack's behavior simply isn't consistent with him remembering the original time line, but there was lots of evidence that he had some sort of memory of it at a subconscious level. I think that as the season progresses, those memories are going to start influencing his conscious mind in more and more ways, maybe even resurfacing fully by the end of the season.

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I think that's very possible and I kind of like the idea; a complete resetting of the timeline is very similar to ending a show with someone waking up and realizing it was all a dream. All the charecter development and emotion you experienced as challenges were encountered and conquered or failed is wiped away in an instant and you're left feeling cheated.

I'm convinced Jack doesn't remember anything consciously, I can't tell how much of the rest for all the characters is actual subconscious recognition of people or events and how much is the writers being clever. For instance, when Hurley says he's lucky is it because he thinks it, or he's being ironic or trying to accept what everyone was telling him (he won the lotto, all his investments turned out great, etc...). Clearly there were changes to the timeline or the island wouldn't be underwater, but do the characters actually have even a subconscious memory events? I hope so but I'm not convinced yet.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Hobbes, I think it's more along the lines of the writers being clever, than subconscious recognition(at least on the parts of the other characters besides Jack). Or, to put it differently, I think they're trying to tell us that all these characters have important connections with each other, and have or will criss cross paths, regardless of whether 815 crashes or not. That there is something holding or bringing them together.

I agree with what you say about the loss of character development and emotion in regards to a reset.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 

quote:

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Hobbes, I think it's more along the lines of the writers being clever, than subconscious recognition(at least on the parts of the other characters besides Jack). Or, to put it differently, I think they're trying to tell us that all these characters have important connections with each other, and have or will criss cross paths, regardless of whether 815 crashes or not. That there is something holding or bringing them together.

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I agree, though maybe it's because I like this more. The former (subconscious memory) seems more like a trick of physical laws (physical laws made up for the show no less) than a real insight into anything. The latter (that these characters will interact one way or another) speak more to destiny, or inter-personal relationships, or just generally something more important than if the writers decided to have a nuclear blast imprint an alternate timeline on some randomly selected group's memory (as note, everyone's timeline had to change with that event, if nothing else the whole world knew that the flight crashed so shouldn't the same alternate-timeline memory thing work for every other person?)

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I could buy the explanation that characters who were actually in the vicinity of the incident (as opposed to everyone affected) got a flash of the original timeline burned into their subconscious, and that it carried over because souls exist outside the timestream or something like that.
 

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Posted by LargeTuna (Member # 10512) on :
 
I just realized what the writers did with the premier episode! There were tons of people who were going to be super upset if the timeling was reset, and there were going to be people who were angry if the plane didn't land in LA because then the whole last season could have been viewed as a waste of time and a stupid cliffhanger. The writers know they cannot have their cake and eat it too, so they set up diverging timelines where in one there is no cake, but they would be allowed to have it, and in the other there is cake, but proceeding to have it is impossible. They have solved the age old cake conundrum!
I'm going to have to think this one out some more to see if I can put it out more clearly.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I think they're doing more than that (although that is obviously one of the major reasons they went this route). I do think they are going to find a way to connect everything together so that they will have their cake, eat it, and then have it also turn out to be a lie. And then eat some pie for good measure.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
hah, what a brilliant description of Lost.
 

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Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
I'm in for the long haul but after the premier I'm not optimistic that this final season will be very satisfying to me. But they've surprised me before, and either way it's been a great ride.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
I think...they will have their cake, eat it, and then have it also turn out to be a lie.

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...The Island is GLaDOS?
 

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Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
 
So I'm rewatching.... two things I didn't catch the first time:

on the plane just after Jack saves Charlie - Charlie gets mad at Jack and tells him that he (Charlie) was supposed to die and then glares at Jack as he is taken off the plane.

on the island when the group is at the temple - the stewardess lady steps out and tells the guy in charge that she knows them and that they "were on the first plane" so what is the second plane??????
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
The plane Jack and Kate and the others came back on.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by LargeTuna (Member # 10512) on :
 
Yeah the second flight is the Ajira flight that Frank landed on the runway that Ben made Kate and Sawyer help build back in season 2. I noticed that Desmond had a wedding ring on when he was talking to Jack on the plane. I hope Desmond and Penny are happily married in the flash-sideways.

It would also be extremely shocking, therefore possible turn of events if Jack killed Locke on the operating table trying to fix his legs/spine.
 

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Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
Season 6 promises to make Lost fans more annoying than ever

edited -- thanks, Strider.

[ February 09, 2010, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Uprooted ]
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Uprooted...it's season "6".

but yeah, that clip is hilarious.

LT, I also noticed the runway connection(season 3 though), and thought it was really neat. So did they ever say why they were building it or who told them to? We can only assume Jacob told them to build the runway, correct?
 

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Posted by Xann. (Member # 11482) on :
 
My only hope for the upcoming episode is that Faraday is a musician in the flash-sideways.

I was also thinking that Walt could have either not been born or born much earlier to correctly put them into the story.
 

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Posted by LargeTuna (Member # 10512) on :
 
Just watched the Kate episode. I disliked her less than usual.

I really want to see Desmond, Richard, Charlie, Libby or Mr. Eko strongly featured in an upcoming epiisoe, but I'm not too hopeful. (I avoid the next week on lost scenes and the episode titles when can 'cause I don't like spoilers)

The whole Claire is the new Russoe surprised me, but the more I think about it, the less it should have. I can't believe I never heard that as a theory.
 

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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
A couple thoughts....

First, in the hospital scene of today's episode, there was a very brief line about how Aaron likes to move around and how Claire is going to need to keep an eye on him. Was this foreshadowing something? The whole part of that scene where Aaron shifts positions and Claire panics seems to serve no purpose in the plot arc, except to set up that line. Is it possible Aaron is someone we know on the island (through time travel)?

Secondly, it seems like the "sickness" is back. But how did Sayid contract it? He didn't seem to come in contact with other "sick" islanders, and he didn't contact the Smoke Monster... so how does one get this "infection"? Dogen immediately thought to test for it after Sayid came back to life, so is it possible it has something to do with being near death?
 

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Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
And what about his reaction to torture indicated to Dogen that he was infected?
 

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Posted by LargeTuna (Member # 10512) on :
 
Oh yeah and I had a good laugh when Ethan said he didn't want to have to prick Claire with needles.

 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Tres, I think the death of Jacob, and the fact that water wasn't clear indicates that somehow the smoke monster had infected the healing spring, and thus infected Sayid.

I very much disliked this episode. I've never really been a fan of Kate episodes and I was flat out bored most of the time. The only redeeming part of the altTimeline was Ethan's appearance. And his line about not wanting to stick Claire with needles was hilarious.

I thought Miles had some great lines, "we'll be in the food court", "Hurley's the leader now, so that's great".

The infected sub plot is intriguing, and Claire's return is pretty cool. So if Dogen is right, and Claire has been taken by the monster in the same way that Rousseau's team was, why does she save Jin? Are we supposed to be happy to see her or scared? Could it be that Dogen is wrong?

I'm still put off by how easily these Others will resort to violence and murder. I guess that's not Jacob's fault, he wants to have faith in humanity, but doesn't seem to want to force them to be good, but still, it's bothersome. Maybe we'll find out Smokey isn't as bad as we all think.

Really though, overall, I thought this episode was a big waste of time. It could've been 3 minutes long. I'll be psyched for more meat to the story next week, and altTime flashes that don't deal with Kate. Jack and Locke maybe!
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Uprooted, I had the same questions. It reminded me a bit of Dune and the gom jabbar. But yeah, I have no idea what Dogen was looking for or what he saw.
 

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Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
I think I've figured out the Sayid and Claire thing. I'm so sure of it I don't even dare post it, for fear that it's a spoiler.

But let's just say someone else besides Sayid might remember being shot and have reason to think he needs to be thanking Jack for saving him.

I'm with Strider, though--I think it will be a miracle if they come out of the season finale having explained the connections between Jacob, the others, and the smoke monster in a way that makes every single episode make sense.

The brainwashing room telling people Jacob loves them? And was that set up by the others or was it a holdover from Dharma? Is that room Jacob-sanctioned? If it's not, why would someone NOT working for Jacob make it? Richard telling Locke he had to kill his own father to become an other? The stewardess being totally cool with all of this, even though supposedly only "good" people are on "the list?" Ben being able to summon the smoke monster to kill the mercenaries, even though the smoke monster is the one trying to be in control?

Who is everybody really serving? And who is serving who?

Even if they don't explain minor details, I would like to see the character motivations become clear. Especially the motivations of Dharma and the Others.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
The biggest thing I noted in this episode is that both Kate and Claire have some sort of premonitions or subconscious memories of the original time line. I'm really hoping they are planning to take that somewhere interesting, possibly linking the two timelines.
 

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Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
 
I agree - there were moments when both Claire and Kate seemed to remember something about the other.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Wendybird:
I agree - there were moments when both Claire and Kate seemed to remember something about the other.

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quote:

---

I think I've figured out the Sayid and Claire thing. I'm so sure of it I don't even dare post it, for fear that it's a spoiler.

But let's just say someone else besides Sayid might remember being shot and have reason to think he needs to be thanking Jack for saving him.

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quote:

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Ben being able to summon the smoke monster to kill the mercenaries, even though the smoke monster is the one trying to be in control?

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It seems that when Esau is in the form of the smoke monster he is limited in his ability to act, and constrained by his duty to protect the Island.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
A resource for anyone who's interested: Doc Jensen on EW.com writes these fantastic episode recaps and breakdowns, where he discusses everything from Shamu Whale imagery (not kidding) to the GUTOL (Grand Unifying Theory of Lost) and has some fantastic narrative insights. He's been wrong in his guesses before, which makes him just a fan like the rest of us, working off assumptions and trying to piece together clues. I love reading his theories and his take on the different characters and the "message" of the show. Highly recommended for Lost fans.
 

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Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 

quote:

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then killed later

---

This is the misdirection. Don't think about who's been killed. Think about who else has been in the pool.

And who might have thought Jack saved them when they were shot, even though Jack didn't really want to save them.

I'll just say it--it is just a theory:

I think it's young Ben. Somehow, part of "him" went into the pool, and picked up part of someone else. Now Sayid has gone into the pool, left part of himself behind, and picked up the part of Ben that's been there. That's the part that talked about remembering being shot, and that thanked Jack for saving him, unaware that Jack didn't want to help.

The implications for Claire are obvious.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I think that's really stretching it docmagik.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Strider:
I think that's really stretching it docmagik.

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As opposed to the rest of Lost ...

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
Unfortunately, for Lost, nothing's totally crazy. :-) However, since young Ben barely interacted with Jack in the 70's I don't know why he would assume random sub guy was a doctor and would be sent to heal him -- unless you're suggesting that young Ben's consciousness stayed in the pool and has recently been merged with old Ben, thus learning all of old Ben's memories?

I'm not really too on-board with that theory, sorry.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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The implications for Claire are obvious.

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Not to me. I can't see any possible way to squeeze Claire into your Sayid has somehow become part Ben theory.
 

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Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
I thought it was crazy when I first came up with it, before Teusday's episode aired. People were talking about whether or not Sayid had an accent and whether he was possessed by Jacob or what, and I got to thinking about who could be in his body. And I decided the most likely choice was young ben.

So then Teusday's episode aired, and it felt like everything kept confirming it. Sayid acting kind of different, Sayid remembering being shot, Sayid thanking Jack for saving him--it was all stuff Ben could have said, too. It all just kept fitting.

As for Claire, the implication is that the French Chick's been in the pool.

We're going to get a couple of weeks of "They took my baby" and wondering why Claire can work a gun all of a sudden, and then we're going to have a moment when she says "Alex" instead of "Aaron" or something, and we realize she's not talking about the baby we thought she was. Or she's talking some kind of jumbled hybrid of both babies.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
Again, I'm not understanding how young Ben would know who Jack was, or be at all interested in thanking him. Any thoughts?

Also, it's been three years for Claire, no matter which way you slice it. Plenty of time for Claire (like Rousseau) to acclimate herself to the wilderness and learn to use a gun.
 

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Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
I looked it up and I was misremembering last season. I thought that Jack was the one who'd been working on him, but then had refused to finish, but it was Juliet and Jack never got involved.

Dang it. Sorry. My bad.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
I thought maybe you were thinking of the spinal surgery in season 3. 'S all good
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
We haven't seen enough of Sayid to say whether or not he's acting differently or just acting like Sayid recovering from a fatal injury and torture. I didn't see anything in his behavior that seemed the least bit like Ben. His reaction to torture wasn't the least bit like Ben's reaction when Sayid tortured him. His thank you Jack was nothing like Ben's duplicitous thanks when Jack did the spine surgery.

I think its is worth noting that both Ben and Sayid were taken to the temple with gun shot wounds and healed. That's an interesting parallel but certainly doesn't suggest that Sayid is possessed by Ben.

Likewise, there are interesting parallels between Rouseau and Claire. But there is no evidence that either one of them was ever in the temple, let alone the pool.

I expect that these parallels are important and we are going to learn more about them, but possession of one by the other seems way out there even for lost.
 

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Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
Rabbit, I wasn't talking about old Ben, I was talking about young Ben. And if my theory had been correct, the reason old Ben would have acted differently than young Ben would be that Ben "picked up" something in the pool that made him more bitter than the young Ben that Sayid picked up. Ben picked up someone else (a Black Rock person?) and Sayid picked up young Ben.

Let me back up a step.

What connects it (at least in my twisted mind) is Miles's power. It says that there is a "thing" about each person that Miles is able to detect, even after they die. That "thing" is sort of what I feel like is going into the pool.

Think about it--Young Ben DIDN'T remember being shot. He lost that memory. Sayid DID remember being shot. There has to be a reason for the difference.

The obvious explanation is that it didn't affect him like it did young Ben because of whatever made the pool "Dirty." (Presumably Jacob's death, but who knows.) It changed the rules of the pool, so they don't have to have it affect the two of them the same.

The alternate explanation is that Sayid gave up some of his own memories and picked up the ones Ben lost. The pool might be some kind of collective conciousness of a bunch the others, that being why Richard said Ben would always be "one of them" after he went in the pool.

But basically, it's BEN'S memory of being shot that he could remember.

So maybe instead of possession or spirit swapping I'll just soften it to some kind of shared memory or swapped memory.

But misremembering of last season has weakened my faith in my theory quite a bit.

quote:

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But there is no evidence that either one of them was ever in the temple, let alone the pool.

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I thought it was made completely clear that Claire had been in the pool, since the leader of the Temple said the same thing happened to her that was happening to Sayid. Looking it up, I guess that also is just an assumption on my part--specifically all he said was the same "darkness" was taking her that was taking Sayid. I guess I just assumed the rest in terms of the theory I'd started out the episode with.

But I don't think assuming she got the "darkness" in the same way Sayid did is as big a logical leap as some of the other parts of my theory.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Rousseau's team got the darkness from being dragged under the temple wall by Smokey.

The only reason Sayid got it in the pool is because Jacob had been killed and the water was no longer clear. When young Ben was taken to the Temple he was probably bathed in clear water.

Claire, if she has in fact been Smokified (which isn't a guarantee), could have easily been infected by her interactions with Christian Shepard.
 

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Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
I remember there was some speculation a while ago that Claire had actually died when the missile hit her house, and that's why she disappeared later. At the time, I figured that was false because she carried Aaron before she left, but now we have Esau wearing Locke's image and he can interact with the physical world with no problem. So maybe Claire did die then, and was either resurrected by Esau or had her image taken by him. Maybe it was a practice run before becoming Locke.

--Mel
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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I thought it was made completely clear that Claire had been in the pool, since the leader of the Temple said the same thing happened to her that was happening to Sayid.

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quote:

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Originally posted by docmagik:

Season 5 finale: Juliet dies

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quote:

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Do we all agree that the others, or at least most of them, were slaves on the Black Rock?

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Originally posted by Strider:
Certainly Richard was, but I don't think we have any indication of anyone else also being immortal, or being a descendant of black rock people.

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That is most certainly not certain. Possible, maybe even likely, but definitely not "certain". Locke/Esau's reference to chains could have many different things, the most likely of which was Richard's servitude to Jacob and not a reference to him being a slave.

Given his race, if Richard came to the island on the Black Rock, it almost certainly wasn't as a slave in chains but as a slave trader.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
fair enough Rabbit, change my certainly to "I think it's likely".
 

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Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
Ben claimed that he had brought in most of the Others. Now, this is Ben, but I suspect that's probably true of the Others that lived in the old Dharma stations and barracks. The more reclusive Others that hang out with Richard and/or at the Temple are probably made up more of older groups.

--

One thing we noticed was that Kate wasn't on the list of candidates, even though Jacob interacted with her as a child. I have some vague thoughts on possible reasons why, but they haven't coalesced enough to articulate yet.

Also, Ben gets all the best lines. "...and I'm very sorry I murdered him," had us practically rolling on the floor laughing.

--Mel
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Oh, it just occurred to me that the Black Rock could have been prison ship taking convicts to Australia.

If that is the case, then I think its much more likely that Richard and many of the others derive from the Black Rock.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 

quote:

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Also, Ben gets all the best lines. "...and I'm very sorry I murdered him," had us practically rolling on the floor laughing.

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aww, and I thought that was actually one of Ben's sweeter moments.

The look and grunt that Lapidus gives after that moment is priceless.

Miles's name was also on the cave, but crossed out. Why? Is Ilana a candidate? If so, was her name crossed out?

While it's no huge surprise that the number are associated with Losites(the lost experience and valenzetti equation hinted at that strongly), and it tied into Faraday's talk last season of the Losties being the variables in the equations that he hadn't accounted for, I was a bit surprised that each number was literally associated with one person. Which begs the question, how did Jacob choose the numbers and what is the significance of the number associated with each individual? How did Dharma get those six numbers to use? And why are those six people the last candidates?

I'm wondering if Lost backed themselves into a wall with this, by limiting the number of candidates left to those 6 numbers, thus leaving out Miles, Claire, Kate, Illana, etc...did they just fit things to explain a former mystery, or has this been planned out for a while with yet more information that we're not aware of?
 

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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
Did anyone else notice there's seemingly a contradiction in alternate Ben's life? When the nuke went off, Ben was on the island - he had just been healed in the temple when The Incident occurs. Yet he is surviving off the island in modern times in the alternate timeline. So, how was he not blown up?
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tresopax:
Did anyone else notice there's seemingly a contradiction in alternate Ben's life? When the nuke went off, Ben was on the island - he had just been healed in the temple when The Incident occurs. Yet he is surviving off the island in modern times in the alternate timeline. So, how was he not blown up?

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quote:

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We still don't know exactly when the timeline reset.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Reader:
I found it quite startling that antiJacob (or whatever his name is) said the island is just an island. It isn't special and doesn't need defenders. Has the Island really been a ruse all along, and the secret is something else on the island?

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Reader:
I found it quite startling that antiJacob (or whatever his name is) said the island is just an island. It isn't special and doesn't need defenders. Has the Island really been a ruse all along, and the secret is something else on the island?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Strider:
But on the Island, when the little boy tells Esau he can't kill him, Esau yells, "don't tell me what I can't do". Which I thought was a nice ironic flip flop on those two characters. Especially given Sawyer's statements about how him and Esau are totally opposite.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
As good a name as Esau is, I have to say that "The Locke-ness Monster" is the best one I've heard so far.

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Thank you

I liked this last episode. I was trying to compare the names of the people in relation to the numbers as well. Then I started replacing the numbers in the show with the names of the people they represent.

I don't know if there is something to it, probably nothing at all. Does anyone know of instances where the numbers are used?

For Example:

Oceanic Flight 815 = Oceanic Flight Reyes Ford (Or Hugo James)

One thing that I did think about was the Hatch. Other than Desmond, I believe every one of the people on that list typed in the code at some point, and no one else. As far as I remember, Kate never did. Desmond may have been a candidate in the past but perhaps not now.

Did anyone see any repeating numbers that had been crossed off?

I also think that the Kwon on the list probably represents Jin. All the rest of the candidates are men, so I just figure the last would keep consistent with the rest of the list.


I think it would be interesting if we saw Ben's name as well as Penny's father there as well. They were the leaders of the others and maybe they were being "groomed" to take Jacob's place? Is this the reason Ben and Penny's father also followed rules to not kill each other?

Was Ben following Esau and Penny's father following Jacob the entire time? Or vice versa?
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Geraine:
I don't know if there is something to it, probably nothing at all. Does anyone know of instances where the numbers are used?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lisa:

quote:

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Originally posted by Geraine:
I don't know if there is something to it, probably nothing at all. Does anyone know of instances where the numbers are used?

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The only one I can think of is that Jack was sitting in row 23 on the flight.

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quote:

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Originally posted by theCrowsWife:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lisa:

quote:

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Originally posted by Geraine:
I don't know if there is something to it, probably nothing at all. Does anyone know of instances where the numbers are used?

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The only one I can think of is that Jack was sitting in row 23 on the flight.

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There were a lot, but I think most, if not all, of them were in the first Hurley episode. For example, there was a whole line of girls in uniforms that each had the number, in sequence.

--Mel

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Neither Jin or Sun ever push the hatch button, at least not that I can recall.

If Jin is the Kwon on the list then all the listies share the following qualities.

1. Male
2. Came on flight 815
3. Traveled back in time.

Unless "male" is important, I can't think of any obvious reasons why Kate isn't on the list.

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quote:

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Also, someone suggested to me something that makes total sense--in the ALT timeline, the timeline doesn't have to diverge in 1977. Since the the ALT timeline, the plane never crashed, that means NONE of the events of the time-jumps happened either. Which means the timeline could have skewed as early as the earliest time-jump was.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Strider:

quote:

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Also, someone suggested to me something that makes total sense--in the ALT timeline, the timeline doesn't have to diverge in 1977. Since the the ALT timeline, the plane never crashed, that means NONE of the events of the time-jumps happened either. Which means the timeline could have skewed as early as the earliest time-jump was.

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It's things like this that make the entire idea of the altTime so ridiculous.

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quote:

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The whole nuke is a red herring. Whatever happened, DID happen.

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quote:

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And this altTime we are watching was in no way caused by the nuke detonation in Dharma time.

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quote:

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As others have mentioned, it could be that the on Island events we are watching this season actually lead up to this alternate reality we've been shown.

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quote:

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You keep saying that. I don't think that means what you think it means.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Strider:

quote:

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You keep saying that. I don't think that means what you think it means.

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Actually, I'm pretty sure that since my pre season speculations, that's the first time I've mentioned any such thing. And I only did so after a slew of other posters presented the same idea. I think you were just waiting for me to post because you enjoy contradicting me!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Strider:
It's okay, I'm letting it slide because Princess Bride references are ALWAYS apt.

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quote:

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There’s one tangent I’d like to discuss that’s I think related to Jacob, and it’s about Rose and Bernard. Their scene in The Incident was really integral to the plot as well. They seem to have realized and lived out what Jacob was speaking of at the beginning of the episode. They escaped the cycle that Esau talks about. The Island seems to be a metaphor for heaven/paradise/nirvana/the garden of eden. Esau thinks humans aren't worthy of it because they are by nature corrupt/sinful/evil and always destroy and attempt to control. Jacob has faith they are better than this. And Rose and Bernard are living proof of this fact. They are at peace in the garden. I don't think there can be any doubt any more that Rose and Bernard are Adam & Eve. In light of this, I'm very interested in Bernard's invitation to Juliet to stay and have tea. Being that not only is she the only one not to be visited by Jacob, but she is also the person who makes the decision to set off the bomb. She is the last, and thus most important, chain in that link.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sterling:
The guardian's death has created a limited window of opportunity for the BSM to do things like infect Sayid through the wading pool, bully Jacob's followers, and try to use the "candidates" as avenues to escape the island before one of them is chosen to take Jacob's place. The degree to which the BSM must avoid interfering with/harming the "candidates" remains somewhat nebulous, but the possibility that it infected Sayid suggests that Jacob's death has given it opportunities it didn't have before.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Strider:
I think it was only able to infiltrate the spring after Jacob's death. But you do bring up interesting points about the nature of infection. Rousseau's team interacted with smokey under the temple and soon were changed that way. Sayid was infected by the spring. Claire...we don't know? Was it just proximity?

Is there a cure for the infection? Is Sayid screwed? Can we get Claire back? In general Claire doesn't seem "infected" as much as looney from being alone for so long and being lied to by Esau and the visage of Christian Shepard.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Interesting theory.


Your theory about Esau being trapped in the cabin has some problems because we know the smoke monster and Christian Shephard are able to move freely about the island and much of that movement has clear purpose. Christian is instrumental in getting both Ben and John off the island and therefore series of events that allow him to take John's physical form and kill Jacob.
Presuming that all the ghost's we've seen on the island are Esau, that would also include Horace, so there is even more evidence that of purposeful action. Still, I think you are on to something even if it isn't perfect.

Have all the ghost's we've seen on the island been of people whose corpses were on the island? If so I wonder what made Locke's corpse different. I'm thinking it may be that this was the first corpse of someone who was a candidate.

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quote:

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Is it wrong that I watch this show live on a tuesday and then again on a thurday?

anyone else?

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quote:

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It could be argued that they never were on the island, but Ethan was born on the island and it is believed that Dogen has been on the island as long as Richard has.

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quote:

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As for Jughead, there would have had to have been some sort of evacuation at some point, as Dogen, Ben, and Ethan are all off of the island. It could be argued that they never were on the island, but Ethan was born on the island and it is believed that Dogen has been on the island as long as Richard has.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tresopax:
Anyone else notice that, counting only the "candidates", it is now 3 vs. 3? Locke, Sawyer, and Sayid are on the dark side, while Jack, Sun/Jin, and Hurley are on Jacob's side.

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quote:

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Originally posted by docmagik:Sure, things are working out with Jack and Locke, but Nadia's married to Sayid's brother?

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quote:

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Jin in mortal peril, from Sayid, no less?

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quote:

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Originally posted by docmagik:
Rabbit, I think Omar and Omer are two different people. I think Omar was one of the guys with Keamy in the kitchen.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
My favorite is claire. "Hmmmm.... peanut butter!"

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
But since next weeks episode is titled "Dr Linus", we may have to wait a few more weeks for the answer.

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Can I request spoiler alerts on the names of titles of episodes not yet aired?
It's thrilling to be completely spoiler free (avoiding promos and titles) and I suggest everyone else do the same who have the self control and think it would be fun. Knowing less going into each episode of the final season ensures more enjoyment during discoveries possibley revealed.
*I forgive you guys for letting me know this one title without an alert since I never asked before*

I guess I should have put a spoiler alert on my own post!
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
LargeTuna, I don't mean to give you any trouble, but I don't think posters should be required to put spoiler alerts when speculating on future episodes based off of tv commercials and officially released stuff from ABC. Names of titles might be easy to do, but to properly label every speculation based off content from a commercial could be extremely difficult.
 

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Posted by LargeTuna (Member # 10512) on :
 
It's easy for me to avoid actually knowing if what everyone says is based on the promos or just speculation, so I'm not worried. And I usually skim a post because if someone says "I saw in the preview" then I can skip it. I didn't even think about asking for alerts for those since that would be a hassle.

It's a risk I take by going on a forum.

I'm generally just talking about labeling title names with spoilers (I hope that would be easy? I'm not sure)
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
sure, I have no problem labeling episode title names. I think you're protecting yourself a little TOO much, but the effort required for me to comply is minimal.
 

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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
So it would be a bad idea to mention here that the Series Finale is being titled "It was all just Locke's dream: There is no island"?

Okay... just kidding.... maybe....
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
I thought the season finale would be called

"Our Cash Cow is coming to an end"
 

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Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
I thought it was going to be titled, "You're were right, we have been making it up as we go all along."
 

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Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
 
I saw the cast list for the final episode and Patrick Duffy and Victoria Principal are in it...
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 

quote:

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sure, I have no problem labeling episode title names. I think you're protecting yourself a little TOO much, but the effort required for me to comply is minimal.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Uprooted:
I thought it was going to be titled, "You're were right, we have been making it up as we go all along."

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quote:

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I saw the cast list for the final episode and Patrick Duffy and Victoria Principal are in it...

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quote:

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What the last episode's title should be:
Land Of String Theory (LOST)

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Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
I don't think I'm alone when I say that the filler episode I hate the most is the one with Niki and Paolo.

A close second was the stupid flash forward/flashback when Sun has her baby.

--Mel
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I liked the Sun episode until I figured out that the flashback was just a flashback with no relation to the flash forward, and with no particular cleverness attached to it. (Afterwards I didn't DISLIKE it, there's episodes I hate far more, but I wasn't as impressed).

The episode I dislike the most is the one where Charlie lights some stuff on fire or something (can't remember exactly what, but it was dumb of him). It was just painful to watch.

I had no problem with the Niki and Paolo episode on account of it was hilarious.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by theCrowsWife:
I don't think I'm alone when I say that the filler episode I hate the most is the one with Niki and Paolo.

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quote:

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I had no problem with the Niki and Paolo episode on account of it was hilarious.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Uprooted:
Did anyone else think that Sayid going off and doing just what Dogen told him to was not very Sayid-like at all?

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Well yes and no. Sayid has this almost bipolar personality. On the one hand, half the time he has this almost supernatural ability to see past deception and sense a lie. On the other hand, he's incredibly easy to manipulate once you know his weaknesses.

[ March 09, 2010, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
 

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Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Rabbit, that's what made Sayid such an effective torturer.

IMO, his desperate search for redemption is what lead him to follow FLocke, because he gave up on redemption when he realized what he desired couldn't be obtained. But that's ultimately his flaw. His desires consumed him, and have lead to his destruction.
 

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Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
I'd forgotten about Sayid following Ben for 3 years. I can't keep all these threads going in my head. But I'm not so sure his story is over and redemption is lost. I'm interested to see what ends up happening with alt-Jin and alt-Sayid.

I loved last night's episode. I really thought Ben was going to do the wrong thing in alt-world, and was glad when he didn't. Michael Emerson's a great actor. I actually felt sorry for poor sniveling, conniving, murderous Ben when he said, "No one else will have me." That "I'll have you" line got to me. Even though . . . really, who the heck is Ilana anyway?

The touchy-feely ending scene on the beach was very Season 1. Well, almost ending. Before the sub with Widmore on it.
 

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Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
 
Who have we not seen in the sideways time line? Especially those who are candidates? Have we seen Sun? If not would that make her the one that takes over for Jacob?

I would love to gets Iliana's back story. We need a flashback.

msquared
 

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Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
We have seen Sun. She and Jin were at the airport being questioned.

I like that maybe Ben has turned around.
 

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Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
We saw Sun on the plane and in the airport, although the customs agent referred to her as Ms. Paik. So that could either be a red herring or a clue that Jin was the Kwon on Jacob's list.

--Mel
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
It just means that Sun and Jin aren't married in altTime, I don't know how safe we are extrapolating anything else.

Last night was great. Ben is such a wonderful character.
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
I was only able to watch the first half of last nights episode this morning before work, but so far it is probably my favorite episode this season.

The last scene I watched before I had to come to work was the confrontation between Ben and the principle. Even though he broke Alex' trust, I hope he does the right thing and backs off for Alex' sake. He can always blackmail the principle once Alex is in Yale.

Even though I have not finished the episode, I found myself feeling sorry for Ben. He really has had a difficult life, and has always done what he feels is right, even though it seems evil to everyone else. I think he realizes now that he shouldn't have killed Jacob.

One thing I wanted to point out in this episode is a change in Jack. He has made a transition from a man of science to a man of faith. When he was sitting there with Richard in the Blackrock with the dynamite fuse burning away, Jack looked absolutely convinced that it would not go off. The line at the end, "Want to try another stick?" made me giggle. I think Jack has accepted that he is there for a reason, even though that reason is not clear to him yet.

Jack and Locke have butt heads throughout the entire series. I have a hunch that Jack will be Jacob's replacement.

We haven't seen Sawyer in weeks. Locke is out gathering people, what is Sawyer doing? Sudoku puzzles? Did he find a good book to read?
 

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Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
 
I thought it was great, except...there was a false choice that Principal Reynolds gave Ben. Ben had all the power, so all Ben had to do was say, no, if you don't resign, recommend me as your replacement AND write the recommendation for Alex then your wife finds out you were cheating and the school board does, too. The REAL Ben, the conniving one who was so smart and infiltrated the Losties and ran the Others would have realized that in a second. I understand why the writers wrote it the way they did - so Ben would have a selfless chance at redemption in his alt-life. But it rings hollow when you examine the logic.
 

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Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
 
great episode.

next week can't get here any sooner.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Jonny, one thing to remember is that Ben in altTime is not the experienced manipulator that he is on the Island. While you may be right that he didn't handle his extortion perfectly, I think it's reasonable that he didn't know how to.
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
I do love how we did find out that alt-Ben was on the island at one point, and since Uncle Rico was still around the purge probably didn't happen, or they left before it did.

I wonder if Ben was shot while on the island in the alt-time line?
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I would like to find out WHY things in the alt time are turning out so different. And having Alex show up in Ben's class is really straining credibility.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
if the epilogue theory of altTime turns out to be right, it would explain why things are happening the way they are in altTime.

as for Alex, I think they're just pushing the idea that all these people were meant to cross paths no matter what.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I get that, but frankly that's just dumb. Using "Destiny" as a plot device is only not-dumb when there's some actual reason for the people to end up together. They all ended up in the island together because the Island was constantly manipulating them from Day 1. If the Island is removed from the equation, there's no reason for them to naturally gravitate towards each other.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
again, it all depends on the nature of altTime. If altTime is not in fact just a timeline where there was no Island(though we know there was) then there could be a plausible explanation for this.

Hey, I'm not happy at all with the very existence of altTime! But many things that have happened this season have made me question altTime's role in this story. If as some have speculated, altTime is an epilogue, and events on the Island now are actually leading up to the events we're watching in altTime, then they could conceivably have an explanation for all the connections.
 

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Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
 
Last night's episode was a perfect example of why I love Lost. Great character interactions, cool human stories, and awesome performances. I've long since given up trying to follow all the theories or to guess what's going to happen. Don't get me wrong, I love the fantastical elements and the crazy plot hi-jinks, but at this point I'm perfectly content to just watch things unfold from week to week.

Ben: Because he's the only one who'll have me.
Ilana: I'll have you...
Me: Nice!
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geraine:
I do love how we did find out that alt-Ben was on the island at one point, and since Uncle Rico was still around the purge probably didn't happen, or they left before it did.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geraine:
I wonder if Ben was shot while on the island in the alt-time line?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:
Who is Uncle Rico?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geraine:
I do love how we did find out that alt-Ben was on the island at one point, and since Uncle Rico was still around the purge probably didn't happen, or they left before it did.

---

Who is Uncle Rico?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geraine:
I wonder if Ben was shot while on the island in the alt-time line?

---

By whom?

---

1) Yeah, Napolean Dynamite reference. Sorry

2) By Sayid. In the original timeline Sayid shot Ben. Ben was then taken to Richard who took him to (presumably) the temple and saved his life.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geraine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geraine:
I wonder if Ben was shot while on the island in the alt-time line?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:
By whom?

---

By Sayid. In the original timeline Sayid shot Ben. Ben was then taken to Richard who took him to (presumably) the temple and saved his life.

---

quote:

---

Both of the first two options have their own problems with logistics and causality, and pointing out to Geraine that Sayid wouldn't have shot Ben in altTime is just as much of an assumption as any others.

---

ALL time travel stories (at least all time travel stories involving travel to the past) have problems with causality. One of the fundamental laws of physics is that cause must precede effect. If you allow travel backwards in time, that law does not apply which effectively destroys the concept of causality as we understand it. Its an inescapable fact. There is no way around it. To enjoy any time travel story, you have to let that go.
 

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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
I'm still wondering if perhaps, just like time travel was possible, travel from altTime to the original timeline is also possible.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Oooooo. We could have an Alt-Locke vs Faux-Locke smackdown. Or a Crazy-Claire holding Alt-Claire hostage.
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
Bad news....Looks like Julie Bowen is heading to Hawaii to shoot an episode of her new show and will probably be stopping by the Lost set on one of the days....I REALLY hope that doesn't mean she is Jack's baby mama.
 

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Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Crazy episode, but at least we know what Sawyer is up to. The FS seemed way too soapy, even more than usual.

I won't spoil, but I'll say I liked the teaser for next week's episode. It looks awesome
 

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Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
FS?
 

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Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
Flash Sideways.
 

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Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
I thought this last episode was pretty boring. Usually Sawyer is pretty fun, but not this time. Alt-Sawyer is really tedious, and I haven't liked Kate in years. I'm really looking forward to next week's episode, though!

--Mel
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Sawyer and Kate are the only reasons I watch any longer. Even Hurly isn't as fun this season.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
The fact that Hurly is not fun this season is, IMO, the real reason this show sucks rotten dinosaur eggs now.
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
The problem is they've already split the Losties up, so you only see half of them in any given episode. I think Hurley was pretty funny when he and Jack followed Richard Alpert into the old ship, and also when he told off Dogen.

The biggest hint they gave us this episode was about handshakes/touching. Kate still hasn't been touched by Fake Locke or Jacob.

But yeah, a pretty hum-drum episode. The next one ought to be fun.
 

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Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
 
I love Sawyer so I loved seeing more of him this epi. I loved his flash sideways

See something for everyone just not all of us on any given night
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
I thought it was boring as well. The only interesting part is how Sawyer is playing both sides. I do think it was pretty dumb how fast Sawyer has moved on from losing Juliet and now seems to be ok with Kate again. It has been what, 4 days? Plenty of time to get over the woman you loved and spent 3 years with.

I was really hoping the person Miles was trying to set Sawyer up with was Juliet. It puzzled me why they even brought Charlotte into the whole storyline. It seems the writers are just trying to do everything they can to give screen time to every single character that has ever been on the show. Still no sign of Faraday though >.<
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
Definitely thought the same about Charlotte, Geraine. Although, if I wanted to stick up for the writers, Sawyer and Charlotte (as least, how Charlotte was on the Island with the Freighter People) have some striking similarities. But I don't know that I should give them that much credit.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geraine:
Still no sign of Faraday though >.<

---

quote:

---

Ben in both choosing good. Sayid in both chosing evil.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I think that's seriously over simplified. If someone has shot your brother, threatened his wife and children and kidnapped you, I wouldn't call it [i]evil to kill them. I'm not sure I'd call it good either, but it definitely isn't evil.

Of all the characters in the show, Sayid raises the most interesting questions about good and evil. He is clearly more capable of ruthlessness than any other major character, but unlike Kate, Sawyer and even Jack his ruthless actions never seem to be selfishly motivated and unlike Keemy and Ben he does not enjoy it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott R:
The fact that Hurly is not fun this season is, IMO, the real reason this show sucks rotten dinosaur eggs now.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geraine:
I was really hoping the person Miles was trying to set Sawyer up with was Juliet. It puzzled me why they even brought Charlotte into the whole storyline. It seems the writers are just trying to do everything they can to give screen time to every single character that has ever been on the show. Still no sign of Faraday though >.<

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I think that's seriously over simplified. If someone has shot your brother, threatened his wife and children and kidnapped you, I wouldn't call it [i]evil to kill them. I'm not sure I'd call it good either, but it definitely isn't evil.

Of all the characters in the show, Sayid raises the most interesting questions about good and evil. He is clearly more capable of ruthlessness than any other major character, but unlike Kate, Sawyer and even Jack his ruthless actions never seem to be selfishly motivated and unlike Keemy and Ben he does not enjoy it.

---

QFT

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quote:

---

Agreed about Charlotte as well. It seems like just another way for them to cram in a familiar face. I GET IT...they're all meant to cross paths, I don't need to be beaten over the head with it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Reader:
That is what is so sad about Sayid. I feel like he's gone. But then Claire appeared to be a lost cause, but wasn't; she had been manipulated.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Strider:
I predict that Sawyer is going to bite it this season. Most likely sacrificing himself for someone, probably Kate, and that this will be a result of his long con failing against Esau (you don't con a con man).

---

I've been predicting Sawyer's demise since Season One. Wrong-O. I don't have any reason to believe that they'll "finally" kill him off. He's too beloved, and as much as they have killed off a few shocking characters, they've never really put the audience through the ringer -- Sawyer's death would be a BIG one. I don't think they have the cajones. Lindelof's no Joss Whedon.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Your post gives me even MORE reason to believe I'm right.
 

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Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
 
I think it's not about beating people over the head when you have all these previous characters cross paths. That's just a Reason to bring back all these actors. Think of it in terms of a writer: when you bring a character back, you get a known quantity whose backstory you don't have to explain. The audience identifies and has emotions about the character immediately. You also get an actor to play the part who's worked with you before and you know can do well. The Charlotte fans' feelings are somewhat ameliorated (I mean, Miles gets such a large part, so why doesn't Charlotte?). Also, you can make the characters entirely disposable. I don't think we'll see Charlotte in alt-time again because people want Sawyer to be with Kate or Juliet.

=====

I wonder if Miles has the power to know the dead's last thoughts in alt-time.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
They are starting to stretch the everyone is connected thing too far. It almost makes me wonder if in the Lost universe, the world has only a few hundred "real" people in it so no matter what changes, those same few "real" people keep running into each other, kind of like a small town.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
Yeah, that's how I feel.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
In my opinion, the last couple of episodes have been disappointing and not really because of any particular faults in the episodes themselves. They are just fine as stand alone episodes, but they've done very little to advance the plot. We've had 5 years of mysteriousness and character development, its time to stop mucking around and start resolving things. And I'm not just talking about the big questions, I'm talking about the characters. A lot of them have stopped being interesting because they've stop going any where. Watching the same neurosis play out over and over again isn't interesting.

Sometime I just want to shout at the producers "GET ON WITH IT ALREADY!!!"
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
The creators are on record stating (as has been quoted previously in this topic) that basically they're resolving Characters, not Mysteries. Watching the same neuroses play out over and over again is probably all we're going to get!
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leonide:
The creators are on record stating (as has been quoted previously in this topic) that basically they're resolving Characters, not Mysteries. Watching the same neuroses play out over and over again is probably all we're going to get!

---

I thought I made myself clear that I was talking about resolving the characters and the last two episodes haven't made any progress in doing that. "Resolving characters" is not synonymous with showing the same neurosis playing out over and over again, it the opposite.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
I thought my jovial tone was more obvious than it apparently was
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I got that the tone was jovial, but not that it was sarcastic.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
What, no comments on last nights episode?
 

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Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
 
I was surprisingly unmoved by it.

When the boys and I saw the preview last week we were all excited. By the end, I was just blah.

msquared
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

• When Esau told Richard it was hell, my thought was that the alt-universe would have to be heaven.
• That was some can of whup-ass Jacob opened on Richard.
• Wasn't Richard called Ricardus at some point? I thought that indicated that he was going to turn out to be Roman Empire old. So he's only been on the island for 130? Pish.
• I think Esau is honest. Evil, but honest. I think he really thinks he's okay.
• Is there going to be a price to Richard saying that he changed his mind? Are there takebacks, or is he hosed now? For that matter, does Esau know that Richard said he changed his mind? He isn't omniscient, after all.
• Another thing that occurred to me, though it was during the "previously"s, was that maybe in the universe where Aaron grows up with a crazy mother, he grows up to be Esau, and in the universe where he grows up with a sane mother, he grows up to be Jacob.
• Isn't Jacob bringing people to the island to let them stand or fall just to prove a point to Esau kind of cynical and obnoxious?
• The Jacob as God and Esau as the Devil stuff reached anvil status last night. He doesn't want to interfere directly (sure, like he never does that), because it interferes with free will, but he appoints Richard as his "prophet" and traps Esau in "hell". Sheesh, guys, we get it already.

quote:

---

4) Loved the wine bottle analogy. It makes me wonder though.... If the island is the cork, and the island is under water in the alt timeline, does that mean Esau is loose? Is the island some sort of Pandora's Box?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geraine:
Did anyone feel that Sayid was somehow...detached?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geraine:
Esau promises to bring the dead back to life (whether this is a lie or not is unknown, unless he tricks people into believing this by changing his form)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geraine:
3) When Esau was trying to get Richard to kill Jacob, he used the exact same words that Dogen did when he tried to get Sayid to kill Esau.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:
[list]
[*]I think Esau is honest. Evil, but honest. I think he really thinks he's okay.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geraine:
Esau promises to bring the dead back to life (whether this is a lie or not is unknown, unless he tricks people into believing this by changing his form)

---

Does he actually promise that? Usually, he says, "What if I were to tell you that I could bring so-and-so back to life?"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:
[list]
[*]I think Esau is honest. Evil, but honest. I think he really thinks he's okay.

---

Esau lied to Richard, out right. He told Richard that Jacob had taken his wife. He says he saw it happen. He says she was running from Jacob. All clear lies.

I think that scene established that Esau is absolutely not honest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geraine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:
[list]
[*]I think Esau is honest. Evil, but honest. I think he really thinks he's okay.

---

Esau lied to Richard, out right. He told Richard that Jacob had taken his wife. He says he saw it happen. He says she was running from Jacob. All clear lies.

I think that scene established that Esau is absolutely not honest.

---

Unless Jacob is a Christ like figure, and did take Richard's wife. To heaven maybe?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sterling:
So here's what I'm thinking.

The island- anomalies and all- is a prison for the black smoke monster. It may not always have been such, but that's its primary reason for being right now.

The guardian, previously Jacob, is in charge of maintaining that prison so the black smoke monster doesn't escape.

---

I seem to be doing pretty well on predictions so far.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:
[list]
[*]I think Esau is honest. Evil, but honest. I think he really thinks he's okay.

---

Esau lied to Richard, out right. He told Richard that Jacob had taken his wife. He says he saw it happen. He says she was running from Jacob. All clear lies.

I think that scene established that Esau is absolutely not honest.

---

quote:

---

I considered that possibility but even that doesn't work. Ricardo says "My wife Isabelle, she was running from you". Esau responds "She was running from him. I'm sorry. I saw him take her but I couldn't do anything to stop it."

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quote:

---

And thus when he talks about the devil doing these things, he's really talking about himself, but saying these things in such a way to get Richard to kill Jacob?

It fits with a lot of dialog:

---

quote:

---

1) Why did Smokey kill every, but leave Richard? Did he have to? Was their a rule, some barriers in place? If the first mate hadn't stabbed the other slaves, would they have been spared too?

2) Why did Jacob bring the ship if the only survivor was Richard, whom Jacob didn't seem to have any plans for until he met him? Everyone else Died!

3) Why is Smokey "allowed" to kill some, and not others? If he killed the "sinful" slaveship crew, why did he also (in the first season) kill the apparently blameless pilot of 815 and a handful of the other castaways?

4) If Smokey could have killed Richard, but didn't, why? If he planned to mess with him all along, why didn't he pull a longer con? More time getting Richard to trust him might have allowed for more fight in Richard during the confrontation with the "Devil".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tresopax:
I see the moment Richard tries to kill Jacob and asks that question as the moment the island goes from a static state of balance between good and evil to a dynamic battle with both sides aiming for an endgame.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
When we first saw the black rock, at the end of last season, it was daylight and calm seas. But in this last episode, the black rock shipwrecks in a giant storm at night. It seems rather incongruous to me. I suppose the boat might have been further out than it looked, waited there until night fell and a storm came up but it still seems like a stretch. It was clever device to explain why the boat was so far inland and how the statue was destroyed in one blow, but it really seemed like it was something they just came up with and decided to use even though it didn't match up with last season.

Any way you slice it, there isn't any clear reason why a boat headed from the Canary islands to the new world, would have been anywhere in the Pacific Ocean to begin with. It would have made so much more sense if the boat had been a convict ship heading to Australia, unless of course the Island was in the Atlantic in 1867 rather than the Pacific.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tresopax:

quote:

---

1) Why did Smokey kill every, but leave Richard? Did he have to? Was their a rule, some barriers in place? If the first mate hadn't stabbed the other slaves, would they have been spared too?

2) Why did Jacob bring the ship if the only survivor was Richard, whom Jacob didn't seem to have any plans for until he met him? Everyone else Died!

3) Why is Smokey "allowed" to kill some, and not others? If he killed the "sinful" slaveship crew, why did he also (in the first season) kill the apparently blameless pilot of 815 and a handful of the other castaways?

4) If Smokey could have killed Richard, but didn't, why? If he planned to mess with him all along, why didn't he pull a longer con? More time getting Richard to trust him might have allowed for more fight in Richard during the confrontation with the "Devil".

---

I think the answer to all of these is that this particular incident was a major character development point for both Jacob and the Man in Black.

In the case of the MiB, this is the first time he attempted to kill Jacob it seems. It is possible he didn't really think it through extensively, and believed he could make it happen simply by only allowing one person to live and using that one person to kill Jacob. Only after this fails, and Jacob points out that someone will take his place when he dies, that the MiB realizes that he's going to need a much better, much more complicated plan.

In the case of Jacob, it seems like he didn't realize the need to make "plans" for the people he brought to the island until Richard points out that if Jacob doesn't interfere, the MiB will. It is at that particular moment that Jacob changes his way of thinking, and decides to come up with a plan rather than simply leaving the people to their own devices to choose good over evil. And it is at that point that the entire plan involving all the Others, and the Dharma Initiative, and the Losties, and the Candidates really begins.

I see the moment Richard tries to kill Jacob and asks that question as the moment the island goes from a static state of balance between good and evil to a dynamic battle with both sides aiming for an endgame. Prior to Richard arriving, both Jacob and the MiB seem frustrated at the stalemate of things. Compare that to the moment of Jacob's death, when both of them seem to think they have almost accomplished their respective goals.

---

quote:

---

Or to put another twist on it...Could that have been our first glimpse of the alt-time lone?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Strider:
Geraine, spoiler warnings please.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LargeTuna:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
But since next weeks episode is titled "Dr Linus", we may have to wait a few more weeks for the answer.

---

Can I request spoiler alerts on the names of titles of episodes not yet aired?
It's thrilling to be completely spoiler free (avoiding promos and titles) and I suggest everyone else do the same who have the self control and think it would be fun. Knowing less going into each episode of the final season ensures more enjoyment during discoveries possibley revealed.
*I forgive you guys for letting me know this one title without an alert since I never asked before*

I guess I should have put a spoiler alert on my own post!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by swbarnes2:
Why on earth would anyone take anything any of these characters say at face value?

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quote:

---

If the Island is a cork for holding in pure evil, and in altTime we know that the Island is buried under water, does that meant that altTime is a universe where evil has escaped and was let loose on the world? Could it be that the Losties end up making some sort of deal with Esau to live in this universe, free of Jacob's interferences in their lives?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Uprooted:
Excellent stuff. I remember someone here was hoping Faraday would be a musician as a grown up in Alt-World.

---

Uprooted, I was one of those people, but I think there were a few. I was so psyched to see that.

except now that I know more about the nature of altTime, it's sort of bittersweet.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
Daniel's scenario involved setting off a bomb to reset a time-line. Then he says he thinks he already did so. So why do you think the nuke had nothing to do with anything anymore?
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
well, to be fair, I never thought the nuke had anything to do with anything(besides sending the Losties back to 2007), I just didn't have an alternate explanation.

I didn't get that from Daniel and Desmond's conversation at all. Daniel seems to remember something about a nuke, and seemed to think that this nuke and his actions had something to do with this fake reality they're all in. But I don't remember him saying that his setting off a bomb reset any time lines or anything like that. Remember, they're all getting these flashes of their true reality, Faraday is just grasping at straws as much as anyone else, trying to figure out what's going on. He may simply be wrong about what caused what. But again, I didn't get that from the conversation. I'm probably going to rewatch this episode though since so much happened, so I'll pay closer attention to that convo next time.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
It was a phenomenal episode. I hadn't realized how much I'd missed Daniel, Charlie, and Desmond until I saw them all together again, being awesome and crazy. It's funny how much Desmond is NOT Desmond unless he's lovin' him some Penny. Desmond-as-Widmore-lackey was really disconcerting. When Eloise sounded off about him finally having everything he wanted I was just about screaming at the TV. A very satisfying episode, all around.

I guess I'm mis-remembering the interaction, but I left with the impression that Daniel was insinuating he felt things had happened differently "before" or "elsewhere" for them -- and that something "big" could serve to alter these set existences...except that then he said he thought he "already did" do something big to change things. Resetting a time-line was just a poor choice of words on my part...I definitely got the sense that Daniel felt there was a "before" and a "now" -- whether those two were happening concurrently or consecutively I wasn't sure.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
ahhh, gotchya. I'll agree with the way you put it there.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Okay, Penny was Penny Milton. So who is the Milton that's her mother? That might be significant.

It looks to me like Esau is stuck underwater (along with Jacob) in the Alt-Timeline. Which means that Jacob can't meddle with the lives of our Losties, and Esau simply can't escape, because he can't find anyone to help him (Arthur Curry? Mark Harris? Nemo?). Maybe that's why things are good.

But it looks like it's fragile. Not meant to be. Very sad.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I would disagree Lisa. Things are only good on the surface, and that's probably because this reality is really a facade. I'm guessing it will start crumbling more and more with each new episode.

Have I talked about the mirror symbolism in this thread yet? Almost every episode some character looks at themselves in a mirror in altTime in an odd way. Each time like something is wrong, or something doesn't belong. Sawyer even broke his mirror. I think those are moments of these characters catching a glimpse of the true nature of things, or at least realizing the wrongness of this one.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Strider:
You know, I think at this point we can definitively say that calling it flash sideways or altTime isn't accurate. Part of me wants to call it Matrix Time, but I guess for this post I'll continue to call it altTime!

I loved every bit of this episode. We got a Desmond episode, and Penny, and Ms. Hawking(or Mrs. Widmore) who even at one point said something along the lines of "whatever happened, happened", and we had Charlie. It was like a big cast reunion!

We also got so much great exposition that confirmed what a lot of us have been thinking about the nature of altTime. The idea that the nuke caused altTime really WAS just a red herring. The nuke had nothing to do with altTime and that altTime is the result of things happening on the Island right now.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Strider:
What if they are given the choice to stay there or not? To stay in this time where they "changed" things or to live in the reality where things happened the way they did. What if they decide to stay in the Matrix as it were? Is that still hokie and trivializing their choices? What if they get to choose their own destiny?

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quote:

---

The only difference is that it's not really a universe where things were "changed" but one created by Esau for them.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Uprooted:
Excellent stuff. I remember someone here was hoping Faraday would be a musician as a grown up in Alt-World.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Xann.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Uprooted:
Excellent stuff. I remember someone here was hoping Faraday would be a musician as a grown up in Alt-World.

---

I think I was the one who explicitly stated that I wanted him to be a musician in the alt time line.Every episode I have been saying to my girlfriend that this has to be the one he comes back in. I said a few weeks ago "My only hope for the upcoming episode is that Faraday is a musician in the flash-sideways. "
It took a few but I got my wish.

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quote:

---

It's possible she believes the entire plan had worked, and that her sacrifice of her son had been worth it, and doesn't want memories from the past to come back and ruin the fruits of that sacrifice. From her perspective, she may be thinking "Oh no, is Desmond going to come in and undo everything?"

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quote:

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I said from the beginning that I was withholding judgment on altTime till we understood its nature better. Well, I can finally say I love everything about this show again. The idea that Whatever Happened, DIDN'T Happen was just too awful for me to stand. I was so happy tonight.

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Originally posted by Strider:
For the last few weeks I've also been thinking about Phillip K. Dick and his connection to Lost. Lost has referenced as least one PKD book throughout the series. And anyone familiar with PKD and his stories should immediately see the connection here. PKD believed, like for real believed, that reality was an illusion. That we really existed in the time of Jesus, and all of this year 2000 world around was an elaborate hallucination, a veil, meant to keep us from seeing the true world around us. This was also a theme in some of his stories, where the characters realize that the reality that they think is real is just a facade, a mass hallucination.*

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Do you think this is the reality or life that Esau has promised everyone so far? Esau asked Sayid if he wanted to see Nadia again, it happened. He told Claire she would be with her son, and it looks like that will happen too.

Perhaps Esau is the one that actually creates the alternate reality, and Eloise knows this. If the losties find out that their lives should have been a different way and discover the truth, Esau may come after them.

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I love this theory because it explains how people keep meeting in the alternate universe. It's not just World minus Island, it's a carefully crafted world, and each "variable" (i.e. numbers i.e. character) must do certain things to maintain the perfection.

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But couldn't it be possible that the creators chose to espouse a theory of time travel where things can't be "changed"? Not a Back to the Future theory of time travel, but a Time Traveler's Wife theory of time travel? Where even though all the choices and acts done by the characters were free, because time travel was thrown into the mix, their free actions were already part of a time line that we knew had to work out one way and only one way. Sure, I may be wrong, but I don't think I'm stretching things to fit my preconceived notions more than anyone else here.

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Sure, I may be wrong, but I don't think I'm stretching things to fit my preconceived notions more than anyone else here.

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All I can say is that no one else who has posted here saw this last episode in the same light you did. In fact, you had to completely ignore a pivital conversation to even begin to think it the episode confirmed that the bomb was irrelevant. That exchange between Daniel and Desmond at a minimum kept the bomb changed the timeline theory in play. Of course if you believe Daniel was wrong in the original time line, you will likely suspect he's wrong in this time line as well so the question hasn't been resoundingly answered but that conversation pointed in exactly the opposite direction of your conclusion.

Furthermore, there was nothing whatsoever in the episode to suggest that Esau had anything to do with the alt-time or that some sort of "matrix" was in play.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
If the bomb doesn't matter, why do the memories of the original IslandTimeTraveling!Losties hinge around that incident? What happens after the bomb that sends them back to the present, if it's not splitting time-lines?
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Pepek, that would be difficult since we saw Smokey in the 1800s, and we saw Eloise as a young woman in the 1950s.

Lisa, apparently! I have an essay he wrote about it.

Rabbit, I don't think it's bad story telling to introduce plot points that are enacted by characters who are wrong. Or to show us things that are deceiving or ambiguous to keep us guessing about the true nature of things. This has been common in movies and books for a long time. It's been common in Lost for six years! Though I certainly agree there are problematic aspects with my theory. There are problematic aspects with all theories. As we've learned slowly throughout this season, altTime is far from (just) being "an alternate time line created by the nuke". I happen to think it's FAR from that. But at the very least it's MUCH more complicated than that statement.

As for Esau having to do with it, yes, nothing in the episode suggested it. My brain did that all on it's own! I've been thinking along these lines for a few weeks now, since the Richard episode, and it congealed more fully last night.

Leonide, only Faraday's memory seems to hinge around that incident. Who else's has? I'm not sure I get your second question. In my theory, the bomb just serves to flash them to 2007, and has no relationship with altTime beyond the fact that it enabled it to happen by flashing the Losties back to 2007, thus allowing for the events of this season on Island, which somehow lead to the existence of altTime.

Anyway, this conversation is co-opting what was a fantastic episodes regardless of who is right about this.

....

What exactly was Widmore's plan for Desmond? What was his sacrifice?

Why did Desmond go so willingly with Sayid? Why was he so quick to do what Widmore asked? Does he fully remember the events of altTime? Or...better yet, how about this...The two Desmond's have switched places. The one on the Island, who so willingly agreed to help Widmore, is the one from altTime who is Widmore's best bud. And the one in altTime, who asked for the flight manifest, knows all the Losties, and knows exactly who to find. That'd be kind of neat.

What does Esau have planned for Desmond?

How does Eloise know everything she knows?
 

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Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
Okay, how about this wacky theory.

You know how Desmond seemed really compliant and laid back at the end of the episode? Like he'd lost his passion?

What if the reason Sayid isn't feeling anything, the reason Desmond's passion seems to go away, and the reason that people kind of remember stuff from both timelines is that their conciousness is somehow split between the two timelines.

In Sayid's case, he's gone over. MIB somehow let so much of him go over to the other side that he's lost all feeling in this timeline. All his "feeling" is in the other timeline.

Sun has gotten a little bleedthrough back, causing her to forget how to speak English.

But that might be the sacrifice the island is demanding--that Desmond choose the other timeline, let himself cross over.

But each lostie may end up having to choose which timeline to commit to.

But they "lose" some of their self in one timeline or the other as they become more invested or something in one or the other.
 

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Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
I know it doesn't seem like that. He seems more "happy" than Sayid-like. I'm more just tossing it out there.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 

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n my theory, the bomb just serves to flash them to 2007, and has no relationship with altTime beyond the fact that it enabled it to happen by flashing the Losties back to 2007, thus allowing for the events of this season on Island, which somehow lead to the existence of altTime.

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• If the altTime is nothing but a matrix illusion, then why is it DESMOND of all people who is able to access it? I can't see how they could possibly set that up and then have it turn out to be an elaborate red herring. People predicted Desmond would be able to access altTime from the beginning of Season 6, because it followed logically from the ruptured timeline premise. Desmond is now able to travel between timelines. We know this as certainly as we know anything about the Lostverse. For that to just be coincidences strains credibility. Eloise's "whatever happened, happened" line pales in significance. We've had several lines that got repeated a lot ("Don't tell me what I can't do") that weren't significant because they told us about the plot, they were significant because they added depth to the character arcs. More on this below.
  
  This is the final season. Assuming the storytelling is good, now is when all the elements we have been show from the entire show should be coming together to form a satisfying whole, that we either see coming or go "ah, should have seen that coming!" when it happens. Now is not the time to have an entire season's worth of red herrings just to have it turn out to be a dream at the end.

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This is the final season. Assuming the storytelling is good, now is when all the elements we have been show from the entire show should be coming together to form a satisfying whole. Now is not the time to have an entire season's worth of red herrings just to have it turn out to be a dream at the end.

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It's not an illusion, but it's a carefully constructed universe set in motion by Eloise.

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In season 5, towards the end, Faraday is talking about "whatever happened, happened" theory that it only makes sense if you assume that people always make the same choices. Generally speaking, people DO always make the same choices because people have particular personalities and will do the same thing in the same situation. But if free will exists (and despite the fact that I think free will is nonsensical, I don't expect a TV show to claim that it doesn't), there is always the chance that one of the variables in the equation (i.e. people) will choose something different.

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I would also say that a season's worth of a completely new plot element(altTime), is just as bad as a season's worth of red herrings when what we want are answers and resolution.

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What's the difference between an illusion and a carefully constructed universe? Isn't that sort of semantic?

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I question your use of "choose something different"

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Originally posted by Strider:
Rabbit, I don't think it's bad story telling to introduce plot points that are enacted by characters who are wrong.

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Or to show us things that are deceiving or ambiguous to keep us guessing about the true nature of things.

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Originally posted by Leonide:

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n my theory, the bomb just serves to flash them to 2007, and has no relationship with altTime beyond the fact that it enabled it to happen by flashing the Losties back to 2007, thus allowing for the events of this season on Island, which somehow lead to the existence of altTime.

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WHY does the bomb transport them back, and nothing else? Why doesn't it, for instance, KILL THEM?

The conversation got a bit heated, but I don't see how it distracts from the awesomeness of the episode. Nothing BUT such an amazing episode could have produced this kind of passionate debate.

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It only distracts from the awesomeness in the sense that I've been a big proponent of this theory from the beginning(i checked and I offered the altTime as epilogue hypothesis right after episode 1) and it has not served to change anyone's mind as of yet. To me, the events of the last few episodes just further serve to confirm and direct that theory, but obviously they haven't been interpreted by others in the same way! I don't mind talking about all this and debating it, and I don't mind being in the minority, but there reaches a point where I can't say anything new! This isn't a slight at anyone, just that in a very practical sense this conversation is turning into a distraction from other Lost related conversation. That said...

Raymond said:

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On top of all the meta-storytelling-analysis, I frankly just don't think "whatever happened, happened," makes intellectual sense.

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But even Faraday's own stance is a TOTAL contradiction to what he spent many episodes drilling into our heads. Was it hokie or a waste of time that Lost decided to have Faraday change his mind?

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I happen to think that whatever happened, happened is the only kind of time travel story that DOES make intellectual sense.

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But even Faraday's own stance is a TOTAL contradiction to what he spent many episodes drilling into our heads. Was it hokie or a waste of time that Lost decided to have Faraday change his mind?

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I happen to think that whatever happened, happened is the only kind of time travel story that DOES make intellectual sense.

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But Eloise's comments about "someone has affected the way you see things. this is a problem. it is, in fact, a violation." and her questioning of why Desmond is causing trouble because he "has everything he wants" very much leads me to believe that this world is a facade, created for a very specific purpose. It is surface happiness, but not real happiness. Or simply just not real, and these characters are starting to realize it.

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I know you've attempted to explain this before, but I do not get it in the slightest. Is there a link you can provide to any kind of actual scientific backing here, or is this just something that happens to click for you? Because in terms of logical-coherence, Pastwatch time travel really works just fine.

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A predestination paradox (also called causal loop, causality loop, and (less frequently) closed loop or closed time loop) is a paradox of time travel that is often used as a convention in science fiction. It exists when a time traveller is caught in a loop of events that "predestines" or "predates" them to travel back in time. Because of the possibility of influencing the past while time traveling, one way of explaining why history does not change is by saying that whatever has happened must happen. A time traveler attempting to alter the past in this model, intentionally or not, would only be fulfilling their role in creating history as we know it, not changing it. Or that the time-traveler's personal knowledge of history already includes their future travels to their own experience of the past.

In layman's terms, it means this: the time traveller is in the past, which means they were in the past before. Therefore, their presence is vital to the future, and they do something that causes the future to occur in the same way that their knowledge of the future has already happened. It is very closely related to the ontological paradox and usually occurs at the same time.

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Originally posted by Leonide:

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But Eloise's comments about "someone has affected the way you see things. this is a problem. it is, in fact, a violation." and her questioning of why Desmond is causing trouble because he "has everything he wants" very much leads me to believe that this world is a facade, created for a very specific purpose. It is surface happiness, but not real happiness. Or simply just not real, and these characters are starting to realize it.

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I know you said you're just tinkering with ideas, but many of the main characters do have a "real" happiness in altworld, aka Locke and Helen, Jack and his son, etc. We've seen them sacrifice in different ways and also come to terms with real, deep-seated issues that were a looooong time in being resolved -- many people here have commented on how content the various characters seem, and how nice it is to see them coming to terms with their limitations and issues...not everything is pat and perfect, as a Fake Made Up World would suggest(e.g. Sayid doesn't have Nadia, Kate is on the run, Sawyer is still held up on his parents) -- so even if it Does turn out that this was a chosen, constructed timeline, I don't think it's going to hinge on the fact that the characters aren't experiencing real change or real happiness.

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Fair point Leonide. I was even one of the first people to mention that some characters seem to be learning very valuable lessons that they never learned on the Island. I'm not sure how it all fits in!

I do rattle off a lot of theories, and while all of them can't be right, I do have a pretty good track record. I think my prediction of Locke being the Smoke Monster came pretty early on last season!
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 

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Raymond, can you explain what is it about Desmond that invalidates my theory? I'm not seeing it

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If I asked you to provide scientific backing for alternate time line scenarios of time travel, would you be able to do it?

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I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a version of time travel that just appeals to you more than others, but to claim that it is an intellectual appeal as opposed to an emotional one is (at least partially) inaccurate.

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It is definitely still up in the air. Even altTime does nothing to suggest that the original timeline is not still a WHH universe. It may be that the nuke was nothing but the "Incident," but that Incident always has and always will also produce the altTime universe.

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But so far the most recent stuff we've seen pretty clearly suggests a mutable/divergent timeline and I think you're better off looking for ways to accept that as possibility that you can actually be happy with.

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LINDELOF: Right out of the gate, in the first five minutes of the premiere, you get hit over the head with two things that you’re not expecting. The first is that Desmond is on the plane. The second thing that we do is we drop out of the plane and we go below the water and we see that the Island is submerged. What we’re trying to do there is basically say to you, “God bless the survivors of Oceanic 815, because they’re so self-centered, they thought the only effect [of detonating the bomb] was going to be that their plane never crashes.” But they don’t stop to think, “If we do this in 1977, what else is going to affected by this?” So that their entire lives can be changed radically. In fact, it would appear that they’ve sunken the Island. That’s our way of saying, “Keep your eyes peeled for the differences that you’re not expecting.” Some of these characters were still in Australia, but some weren’t. Shannon’s not there. Boone actually says that he tried to get her back. There are all sorts of other people that we don’t see. Where’s Libby? Where’s Ana Lucia? Where’s Eko? These are all the things that you’re supposed to be thinking about. When our characters posited the “What if?” scenario, they neglected to think about what the other effects of potentially changing time might be and we’re embracing those things.

That said, are you saying definitively that detonating Jughead was the event that created this new timeline? Or is that a mystery which the season 6 story will reveal?
LINDELOF: It’s a mystery. A big one.

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Is there a relationship between Island reality and sideways reality? Will they run parallel for the remainder of the season? Will they fuse together? Might one fade away?
LINDELOF: For us, the big risk that we’re taking in the final season of the show is basically this very question. This is the critical mystery of the season, which is, “What is the relationship between these two shows?” And we don’t use the phrase “alternate reality,” because to call one of them an “alternate reality” is to infer that one of them isn’t real, or one of them is real and the other is the alternate to being real.
CUSE: But the questions you’re asking are exactly the right questions. What are we to make of the fact that they’re showing us two different timelines? Are they going to resolve? Are they going to connect? Are they going to co-exist in parallel fashion? Are they going to cross? Do they intersect? Does one prove to be viable and the other one not? I think those are all the kind of speculations that are the right speculations to be having at this point in the season.

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Did Jughead really sink the Island? And is it possible that the Sideways characters are now caught in a time loop in which they might have to go back in time and fulfill the obligation to continuity by detonating the bomb?
LINDELOF: These questions will be dealt with on the show. Should you infer that the detonation of Jughead is what sunk the island? Who knows? But there’s the Foot. What do you get when you see that shot? It looks like New Otherton got built. These little clues [might help you] extrapolate when the Island may have sunk. Start to think about it.

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I hope you haven't taken any of this conversation the wrong way, I'm LOVING this season of Lost. And even if I'm wrong, I'll be happy. I have faith that the creators of this show know what the're doing. They've been too smart all along. And I know they're on the ball because I've read quotes from them that are heartening, that show they know what's going on.

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In that case all the power to you. You mentioned earlier that a non-WHH solution would make you "profoundly unhappy," which was what I was worried about.

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I mean...in a universe where they never crash on the Island, they're also not there to set off the nuke in 1977.* They're supposed to now be in a universe where none of that ever happened, and they grew up normal and had nothing to do with some other universe. So why the connections?

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"The Desmond issue doesn't NECESSARILY prove that WHH is wrong. But it proves pretty conclusively that altTime is a real universe that Desmond travels to the same way he always does when jumping through time."

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Originally posted by J-Put:
Can't wait to find out who's right...if anybody.

And, I can't believe I watched this show for 6 seasons just to leave for boot camp and miss the last 5 episodes. LOL

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When he was in the alternate time line, he didn't appear to have any more memory of the original time line than any other character.

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He didn't UNTIL the moment he faints in front of Penny. Afterwards he's suddenly all "let's get this list and mess with some people's lives." I don't know if they have a good reason for why it was that moment where they synced up with each other (similar to how I don't think they have a good reason for Desmond suddenly remembering that message years later). But all of Desmond's abilities have always revolved around temporal leaping ("vision of the future" and "suddenly living in a different stage of time until you randomly are back" are effectively identical).

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An EQUALLY valid theory is that since the Losties never landed, they also couldn't be present during all these other times on the Island. This theory at least goes some way toward explaining why there are other differences. For instance, Ben's dad in altTime said something about how they should have stayed on the Island. Which is a weird thing to say about an Island that you left because a nuke went off on.

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Raymond, what if I called altTime a carefully constructed universe...constructed by Esau. Would that change the way you're viewing it?

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I guess (and maybe this is what you were trying to say earlier) that if everyone enters MatrixTime at a particular point in the future that electromagnetism could bring people in touch with their future, enMatrixed selves... I dunno. Maybe. But so far there is really zero evidence of that.

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Originally posted by J-Put:
Can't wait to find out who's right...if anybody.

And, I can't believe I watched this show for 6 seasons just to leave for boot camp and miss the last 5 episodes. LOL

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Yow, that does suck. At least when I went through Basic it was between seasons 4 and 5. Now I know I get to see it through to the end.

Which branch and what job?
 

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Posted by J-Put (Member # 11752) on :
 
Air Force, and I don't know the job yet, just general electronics field. I'm leaving on Monday, and it seems like every show I watch regularly has some huge cliffhanger with a supposedly amazing resolution coming next week.
 

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Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Have someone record the shows, then watch them all on liberty weekend. Believe me, watching TV after all that can be an exceptionally invigorating release.

I have never believed that alt-time was fully a result of the bomb. It never seemed right, like a bizzarro universe, and I don't mean the differences between that one and the original time (i.e. lucky Hurley, wimpy Ben...). Something like a puppet show represents how everyone acts. Now with the return of Eloise in alt-time, that feeling makes more sense.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Strider, Sorry if I've been ignoring your questions. I'm snowed under right now and won't be able to respond for another week. I'm chairing a workshop this week with 38 people from around the world.

I'm don't actually have a real theory about what's going on, at least not one I'm committed to. I just think your theory doesn't fit the existing data in too many places.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
Strider: I do remember your initial reaction to The Time Traveler's Wife. But since I'm awesome and only like awesome books, I knew you'd come around.

Also, RE: the Nuke, I do NOT believe the Nuke sunk the Island. I just don't know what the Nuke *actually* did. Don't we have conclusive proof that the Nuke did no such thing? Ben, Chang, and Ben's Dad being alive completely blow that theory out of the water (pun intended?). Chang was AT THE SWAN when the Nuke detonated, but Miles references him in his conversation with Sawyer in Re-Con, so we know the bomb didn't transport the time travelers, then sink the Island. In AltTIme, The Island sunk at another point, another time. Definitively. Plus, a lot of other cuh-razy stuff happened leading up to the nuke detonation (Ben's healing being one of the biggest) that we would be seeing repercussions of in altTime, had the nuke detonated in that line. My theory is the nuke didn't happen at all in AltTime. The question is, what did it effect, and how, in the original story, TimeLine Prime?
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Rabbit, no worries. I don't necessarily need you to answer all my questions, mostly just an acknowledgment that those questions need just as much answering as the ones that are problematic for my theory.

Leonide, it's worth pointing out that we don't actually have any definitive proof that the nuke EVER went off. Do we? Juliet's final hit, when everything flashed white could have *just* been a time jump right? I'm not saying it definitely didn't blow up, but we don't know that it definitely did either!

[ April 10, 2010, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: Strider ]
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
A valid, previously considered point. But that begs the question that if the nuke didn't detonate, what did send them forward in time? Someone messing with the wheel again?
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
A large electromagnetic discharge perhaps? Maybe it works on Desmond in one way and others in another way.

Or maybe it was just their mind that traveled, and they are also still living back in the 70's.

Perhaps the bomb didn't go off. Dharma then calls it the incident and builds the Swan station over the top of it, with the bomb as a fail safe. This is what then explodes when Desmond turns the key and destroys the hatch.
 

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Posted by LargeTuna (Member # 10512) on :
 
I just have to say wow. I like how the writers have addressed what's going on, and they are actually managing to make me care about most of our losties flashforwards. After some extremely weak episodes I'm enjoying the past Richard and Desmond episodes immensely. And I wont get too spoilery because the episode hasn't aired everywhere, but they didn't just ignore all of the story lines from the last episode like most episodes do. That makes me soooooo happy, because I hate it when they build something interesting up, then wait 2 or 3 episodes for it to be concluded. I don't mind it when they ignore the unimportant boring plot lines.

I hate Lockemonster. I really do. And not in a fun way like I used to hate Ben or Keemy. He's not a fun villain for me. But almost every scene not involving him of the past few eps have been very enjoyable for me.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
What the hell. I do not understand what Desmond thinks he's doing.

But the title is true. Hurley totally rocks.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Desmond's action made sense to me, but only in the light of the larger picture of my theory. If I'm right about altTime being an epilogue or fake universe or whatever...the important point being that the events on Island this season are what in actuality lead up to altTime...then I'm thinking that Desmond went there with Locke's name to do something similar as he did with Hurley, but upon seeing Locke had a flash/memory/whatever of Locke throwing him into the well and trying to kill him (again, this only works if this isn't a true altTime, but is actually taking place at some point in these characters subjective future). This leads him to a sort of crime of passion where he gets the uncontrollable urge to kill Locke.

I'm betting Locke ends up in the care of Jack at the hospital.

This episode I was also thinking about the nature of the people who seem to pick up on the wrongness/fakeness of altTime first. Charlie, Faraday, and Libbie were the first people to see through the facade (Desmond was prompted by Charlie), and they are also all characters who died on the Island. Like maybe for some reason they have more reason to pick up on the fact that something is wrong with this world, because somewhere deep down they know they died already.

I wonder how much of altTime will tie into the fact that we now have real confirmation that characters survive death on the Island (assuming the people who have been showing up to Hurley are actually the people we think they are, and not Jacob induced visions or something). Can altTime be some sort of afterlife?

The whispers reveal was a bit of a letdown. I mean, I think for people who haven't ever read the whisper transcripts it was probably pretty cool. But for those of us that have, we knew that the whispers were in some significant way connected to individuals who had died. But it just begs the question of who gets stuck on the Island and who "moves on". Are they stuck forever or can they do something to leave? Why can certain people who didn't die on the Island (Ben's mom, Isabella) appear on the Island? What is the nature of their afterlife? Will we get these answers? Are they integral to the future plot of Lost or is this the end of the whispers explanation?
 

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Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
At this point, I'm operating under the assumption that people we've seen dead who didn't die on the island were MIB.

My question is why so many people appeared to Hurley off the island--Charlie, Eko, Ana Lucia--who died on the island.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
So you think Isabella was MIB when she was talking to Hurley and later to Richard? I think that's highly doubtful given her desire to stop MIB.
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
I was so happy Hurley was able to see Libby again. If I remember correctly, Libby was in the mental institution when Hurley was there in the "real" timeline. We never found out why. I wonder if she had other problems or if she was there for the same reason. It would be interesting if in the "real" timeline she had flashes or memories of yet another timeline, and remembers Hurley from that one.

I really pleased with this episode. though I was hoping it would have been about 5 minutes longer. I wanted to see Jack talk to Claire now that he knows she is his sister. He hasn't been able to do that since he found out. Maybe next episode.

I actually laughed when Ben started talking to Desmond. Desmond was acting kind of strange, and Ben probably thought he was a predator.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 

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(again, this only works if this isn't a true altTime, but is actually taking place at some point in these characters subjective future)

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I think it makes sense either way. Regardless of altTime's nature, people get to have flashes between altTime and realTime.

I was actually wondering if for some reason he did it specifically to get Locke into the hospital to meet Jack. I'm not sure why you'd do that instead of just talking to Locke like a normal person, but since a) I'm pretty positive that the result of this WILL be Locke ending up meeting Jack and getting his spine fixed, b) Desmond might have all kinds of crazy insights as to how the timeline fits together, and he might just know that running over Locke is the best way to make that happen... dunno. It's feasible.
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
I just realized....The Christian Shepherd appearences cannot be the smoke monster. In Season 4 or 5 (I can't remember which one) Jack is in his home and sees his father.

The smoke monster is stuck on the island, so it would not have been able to make it off to go visit Jack.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
btw, Geraine, I found your suggestion about Desmond, the nuke, and the failsafe above oddly compelling. Very interesting theory.

I am still constantly confused about the nature of visions on the Island. Between the idea that they could be smokey induced visions, Jacob induced visions, or actually the people they look like they are, I'm really at a loss of figuring out which is which. Christian Shepard is a prime example.
 

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Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
 
Is the young boy Jacob? Or maybe Aaron?

msquared
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I thought the original young boy was Jacob. But this one was different. Seemed a bit older. But not JUST older. My initial reaction is that it was a young Esau. But i'm not sure how that would work out exactly.
 

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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
I think it has to be the same person at different ages... I'm still thinking young Jacob.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
This is the first episode where I felt they'd actually moved us closer to a conclusion instead of just dragging out the drama. Which makes it my favorite episode of the season.

I also like the Desmond inclusions, it feels like he's actually taking meaningful initiative which is rare for characters in the show now days. Normally they seem to stumble about, make a bold decision, and then reverse it in about 10 minutes of show time.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
Okay, this probably won't turn out to be true, but right now it could, and it's fun, so I'll share:

Okay, so we've been seeing the "original timeline" start to affect the alternate timeline. Jack's scar, things like that. Now two weeks ago, it started going full boar, with people remembering the alternate timeline, starting with the people who died AND were in love, then to people who were one or the other. Same pattern this week, Libby remembers, then Hurley.

What we've only been seeing a little is that going the other way. The only sign we've seen is that Sun is forgetting english. That seems to be a sign of the alternate universe bleeding back into the universe we know. So I was trying to think if there were any other signs of the alternate universe "bleeding back" into the original timeline.

And I got to thinking . . . now that Locke has been hit by Desmonds car, hes going to be taken to the hospital. And at the hospital, he's going to meet Jack again. And Jack could just possibly do not only lifesaving surgery, but fix his spine so he can walk again.

This made me think . . . what if all the crazy stuff that's happened on the island, like Locke being able to walk, wasn't "the island" alone, but is bleedback from the alternate universe? Locke was able to walk because, in the alternate universe, Jack healed him, and the realities started to overlap that soon?

We know Sun is pregnant in the Alt timeline, which means Jin isn't impotent in the alt timeline. So maybe he was healed on the island because of bleed-through from the other timeline.

And now Desmond is the new Jacob, going around doing the things that will make everything right. He hit Locke with his car not out of revenge, but because of the actions he knows it will set in motion.
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
Or more to the point, what if Locke temporarily losing the ability to walk several season's back was due to Desmond hitting Locke in the alt-timeline... Since the alt-timeline is in 2004, and the canonical timeline is in 2007.

Hmm.
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
Thing is, I don't think Desmond is a candidate.

Over the past few episodes Jack has change immensly. He knew Hurley was lying but still put his faith in him. The way he acts and speaks is different has changed. I still think that Jack is going to be Jack's replacement.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 

quote:

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I still think that Jack is going to be Jack's replacement.

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Unlikely.
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
I see what I did there. I meant Jacob's replacement.
 

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Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
 
They have told us who/what the whispers are, which is cool. And apparently certain people, like Walt, can tap into that, like calling the Psychic Friends Network. And certain people, like John Locke, can dream the future, like he did with Boone ("Teresa falls up the stairs, Teresa falls down the stairs").

I'm rewatching the series from Season 1 on the ABC website, and it's fascinating, although not nearly as thrilling as the first time through,
 

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Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
Okay, I'm looking forward to reading what everyone has to say.

Interesting symmetry -- last time Sawyer jumped out of the plane when Jack was the leader, now roles are reversed.

Where was Sayid when Jack returned to the island? I didn't see him with the others there on the beach (or should I say Others)?

Loved the question Desmond asked Sayid. Loved alt-Desmond too.
 

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Posted by daventor (Member # 11981) on :
 
I don't care what F-Locke, Smokey, Lockeness Monster whatever-the-heck-you-call-him or crazy Claire says, that was Jack's genuine Ghost-Dad back in the first season.

And since they've still not shown sideways Jack's ex-wife, I'm definitely on board with the theory that says it must be Juliette.

I can't remember if Sayid was there with Locke and Jack at the end, but the others definitely were there (and are probably now all little piles of ash on the beach).
 

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Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
 
I missed the last minute of the show (damn vcr tape). Widmores group had just had them get down on their knees.

What happened then?

msquared
 

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Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
SPOILERS, OBVIOUSLY

Widmore's second (what was her name?) told them that the deal was off, and then she gave the order to attack Locke over the walkie. Back at the beach, Jack stumbles out of the water and is met by Locke and the rest of his group. Locke asks if Sawyer stole his boat and Jack confirms it. Then the explosions start and Jack is thrown to the sand and is dazed. Locke picks him up and takes him into the jungle and says something along the lines of "You'll be ok. You're with me now."
 

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Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
 
"...she's been drinking Locke's Kool-aid"

I do love Sawyer's one liners. I'm getting a little more depressed after each show. What am I going to do without Sawyer and Hurley?
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
I loved seeing Sawyer taking charge again. That three years running security for Dharma really did him a world of good. He's a better leader than Jack, in my opinion.

So Sayid lied to FakeLocke, right? Soulless or not, I don't think he actually shot him.

I teared up a little when Sun and Jin reunited. About time, too.

So... did Desmond run Locke down for the sole purpose of restoring his ability to walk? Since Locke wasn't going to go to Jack on his own, I mean. He really is out to fix everything, isn't he.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
whistled.

Real thoughts to come shortly!
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
Wait a second.... Maybe .. Just maybe.. Juliette is an FBI agent in the alt timeline.. And David's middle name is Tyler and the V's come and he falls in love with a V!

On a more serious note... I don't think Jack is with Locke. He was adamant about staying on the island, and he isn't going to let Locke off the island.

I like how we saw that Sayid still seems to have some thoughts of his own, and hasn't turned completely.

I also hope that Widmore's #2 girl dies. I REALLY don't like the character. For some reason she annoys me so much I can't stand listening to her. The last time I felt that way was Keanny (However you spell it) when he was on the island. More so after he killed Alex.

I also still think that Locke was lying to Jack about his father. Locke hesitated when he told Jack it was him. That and we also have Jack's father appearing to him back in LA once Jack was off the island. If Locke was trapped he would not have been able to do that.
 

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Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lisa:
I teared up a little when Sun and Jin reunited. About time, too.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Geraine:


I also still think that Locke was lying to Jack about his father. Locke hesitated when he told Jack it was him. That and we also have Jack's father appearing to him back in LA once Jack was off the island. If Locke was trapped he would not have been able to do that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by theCrowsWife:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lisa:
I teared up a little when Sun and Jin reunited. About time, too.

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That was really nice, but I was more than half expecting them both to get fried by that sonic fence as they ran to each other. Really glad that didn't happen!

--Mel

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quote:

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Yeah, at the end of the last season I started on a list of questions I thought they needed to answer (at least a little), but I've largely forgotten what they were.

I think it would be interesting to try, as a group, to compile and prioritize such a list before the season starts.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Craig Childs:
Claire
Why did she join with with Christian Shepherd/MIB?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lisa:

quote:

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Originally posted by Craig Childs:
Claire
Why did she join with with Christian Shepherd/MIB?

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She said why. He was the only one who didn't abandon her. Of course, that isn't true. He drew her away from everyone and tricked her into thinking that everyone had abandoned her, but that's her reason anyway.

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I took her abandonment comment to mean that everyone left the island without her. She was stuck there for 3 years with no one but MIB.

It's been a while since S4, but I seem to remember Claire just walked off one night while everyone was sleeping. No explanation why. No evidence she was tricked. It was totally out of character for her. IMO, the writers owe a flashback or some reasonable explanation of how/why this happened.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Craig, she saw the visage of the man who was very recently introduce to her as her father. She followed him. The MIB, in this visage, then began to exert its influence on her so that when Locke saw her in the cabin with him some time later, she was already "on his side". I really doubt we need, or will ever get, any more explanation than this.

In fact, I imagine the vast majority of your questions will not be addressed (or have been addressed already). I think your last two questions will be the only ones specifically addressed.
 

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Posted by LargeTuna (Member # 10512) on :
 
Am I the only one that dosn't want all of the quetions answered? I like the mystery. I be happy with a few explanations, but most things I'd rather them not address. Just please tell me a story. That's what I want, a good story enhanced with mystery and science fiction. Really, what is the island, why people changed, what causes everything isn't my main concerns. I'm just along for the ride. I want in the Finale, a moment that will make me smile, and a moment that will bring me to tears. We'll see if they manage to do that.

If Zombie Nikki and Paulo were the ones in charge I would actually like to know that. (and enjoy that ending)
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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It's been a while since S4, but I seem to remember Claire just walked off one night while everyone was sleeping. No explanation why. No evidence she was tricked. It was totally out of character for her. IMO, the writers owe a flashback or some reasonable explanation of how/why this happened.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Maybe its too obvious to mention, but I think its' interesting how l the strong loving bonds between people keep popping up as important links between the two realities. Desmond and Penny, Charlie and Claire, John and Helen, Jin and Sun, Sayid and Nadia, Daniel and Charlotte, Hurley and Libby and likely more to come. But it isn't just romantic love, we have parent/child relationships showing up all over the place as well. I'm pretty sure that these strong bonds between people are going to be the key to resolving the story. I'm just not sure how.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lisa:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Maybe its too obvious to mention, but I think its' interesting how l the strong loving bonds between people keep popping up as important links between the two realities. Desmond and Penny, Charlie and Claire, John and Helen, Jin and Sun, Sayid and Nadia, Daniel and Charlotte, Hurley and Libby and likely more to come. But it isn't just romantic love, we have parent/child relationships showing up all over the place as well. I'm pretty sure that these strong bonds between people are going to be the key to resolving the story. I'm just not sure how.

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I don't think this counts as a spoiler, but the show creators confirmed to Kristen Dos Santos on E Online that the show is ultimately about love.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tammy:

quote:

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Originally posted by Geraine:


I also still think that Locke was lying to Jack about his father. Locke hesitated when he told Jack it was him. That and we also have Jack's father appearing to him back in LA once Jack was off the island. If Locke was trapped he would not have been able to do that.

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Oooh, good thought! I'd forgotten about that.

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quote:

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I don't think this counts as a spoiler, but the show creators confirmed to Kristen Dos Santos on E Online that the show is ultimately about love.

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quote:

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Why does MIB need the survivors in order to leave the island?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Strider:
In fact, I imagine the vast majority of your questions will not be addressed (or have been addressed already). I think your last two questions will be the only ones specifically addressed.

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quote:

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For instance, I've always wondered how Kelvin Inman got recruited, since he would have left Iraq in 1992, after the Purge. Did the Others recruit him to push the button? But I realize this isn't really germane to the overall story.

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quote:

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I have to say I think there's really only one question they need to answer: What is the point of it all - the deaths, the suffering, the intricate plots, etc.?

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