I'm just curious -- especially from parents of little girls but I'll take opinions from anyone.
My daughter is 19 months old and is really too young, but she got a Barbie in a gift exchange. A cheap one who kind of looks like a scary hooker but that's neither here nor there.
I hadn't planned to get her any Barbie dolls and I plan to pass this one on since it's scary looking and for ages 3+ (there are plenty of charities still needing toys for Christmas...in my defense, we also donated nice toys!).
But for the future...is Barbie just some doll and I shouldn't make a big deal or does she reinforce unhealthy body images?
(Note: I played with Barbie as a child and have a terrible body image but I'm not sure if they're related. I am sure I want my daughter to think she's beautiful.)
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I'm partially of the mind that girls aren't so amazingly frail that they should not be exposed to dolls with cartoonishly slim body figures that may promote poor self-image. you don't hear parents worried that G.I. Joe's ripped pectorals and muscly arms will give their boys poor body image. They aren't running around trying to find more porky or sinewy action figures to help their boys feel better about themselves. But with the girls, there's always that concern that barbie dolls will make them anorexic or something. It's such a strange divide.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Get her a G.I. Joe instead?
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I don't think that the contention is that Barbie by herself will injure girls' body image, rather that Barbie will be yet another straw in the enormous haypile of things that give girls the wrong message about their bodies.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
No harm, no foul. She is clearly not human - she's about as effective a role model as a Teletubby.
I'm very feminist and very upset about unrealistic expectations in general, but Barbie doesn't bother me at all. She's as fantastic as a My Little Pony. I think it is fine.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I'm with kmmboots - is it terrible? No. But girls are bombarded with enough bad messages, why add another one when there's plenty of perfectly normal looking dolls out there? (disclaimer: I have not actually checked the doll market recently and have no idea how easy it is to find perfectly normal looking dolls). G.I Joe isn't an issue for boys because they can look on TV and see plenty of positive role models of a variety of body types. Girls don't get that.
If she specifically asks for one when she's old enough, it's not the biggest of deals, but I wouldn't go out of my way to give her one before then.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
I don't exactly think she's all that's wrong with the world, per se. But there are a lot of better toys out there. Even putting aside body image, Barbie is such an icon of hyperconsumerism, both in her own "lifestyle" and in the thousands of other dolls, outfits, accessories, "friends", "pets", "homes", vehicles, and whatnot that her brand fiercely advertises to impressionable young girls.
One Barbie, especially to a pre-two, is not going to hurt anyone. But I wouldn't make it a habit. (And I'm the dad of a six-year-old girl who was is quite happy to overdose on pink, ponies, and dressing up her toys even without Barbie.)
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Raymond hit on part of the difference between boys and girls -- the media is swimming with a variety of male body types whereas female body types are very limited.
The other thing is that I think girls are more in danger of linking their self image with their body image.
No, I don't think Barbie is evil incarnate and she is not going to be the ruin of my little girl. I just want her life to be full of as many positive images as I can manage and I definitely won't be choosing Barbie over other better toys -- even better toys in the pink aisle (that's what I call it). I'll take My Little Pony over Barbie any day.
I'm not sure if dolls are any better than they've ever been. Barbie is a fashion doll and aside from the body image concern, there's the fact that Barbie is historically a vapid female concerned with material things that will make her popular.
Posted by Hank (Member # 8916) on :
I loved Barbies growing up, and I will probably buy some of them and their stuff for my (potential future) daughters, but I do have some concerns. Both what Sterling described, and also the fact that it is extremely hard to buy Barbie clothes that aren't pretty suggestive. As someone who would prefer that my daughters be aware of how their clothing sends a message, I would prefer that mini skirts and tube tops not be considered the norm.
When it comes down to it, most of the games that I most enjoyed playing with barbies would be played just as effectively with a dollhouse, and with far fewer negative connotations attached.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: I'm partially of the mind that girls aren't so amazingly frail that they should not be exposed to dolls with cartoonishly slim body figures that may promote poor self-image. you don't hear parents worried that G.I. Joe's ripped pectorals and muscly arms will give their boys poor body image. They aren't running around trying to find more porky or sinewy action figures to help their boys feel better about themselves. But with the girls, there's always that concern that barbie dolls will make them anorexic or something. It's such a strange divide.
There are few differences, though. G.I. Joe's build (at least from the ones I've seen) isn't unrealistic for a man in military special forces. I've known several men built like that (most of them firefighters, one of them an elementary school teacher), and any healthy young man who really wants to can achieve a similar physique.
I've never met a woman who was 7', 110 and 39-18-33.
Also, we live in a culture that praises men for intellect, skill, courage, and confidence, but praises women chiefly for beauty. A quick look at ugly or fat men who are famous actors vs. ugly or fat women demonstrates this. A short or poorly muscled man might think slightly less of himself for being so, but it's nothing compared to the enormous amount of pressure put on women to look a certain way.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: There are few differences, though. G.I. Joe's build (at least from the ones I've seen) isn't unrealistic for a man in military special forces. I've known several men built like that (most of them firefighters, one of them an elementary school teacher), and any healthy young man who really wants to can achieve a similar physique..
I have to point out that this is fundamentally untrue. There are many, many men in this world who will never have a body like GI Joe, no matter how many weights they lift or how hard they work out. My brother is one of those men. Not that he can't be fit and muscular, but he has a wiry build and will never be able to bulk to GI Joe standards.
Edit: For clarification I do know that there are many men who can achieve a body like GI Joe, I am simply pointing out that there are many who cannot.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:Raymond hit on part of the difference between boys and girls -- the media is swimming with a variety of male body types whereas female body types are very limited.
I'm going to argue that, outside of a fairly narrow range, the "variety" in male body types serve to provide the butt of a joke more often than not.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I'm not a big fan of Barbie, and I certainly wouldn't pay money for one, but I feel no need to ban it from our house.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:I'm going to argue that, outside of a fairly narrow range, the "variety" in male body types serve to provide the butt of a joke more often than not.
While this is true, I don't think it's nearly as true for men as it is for women.
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
Our objection to Barbie is that the dolls aren't sturdy enough to survive what my kid will do to them.
There were two Barbies in our church nursery, until Miss Toddler decided to find out if their arms would come off.
They did. All of them. Permanently.
So then there were these pathetic little double amputee Barbies in the nursery, until the new Nursery leader decided to toss them out.
Posted by Hank (Member # 8916) on :
When I was little, I once decided to give Barbie a haircut, but I couldn't get it even, so I had to cut it shorter and shorter. I distinctly remember my mom referring to it as "Chemo Barbie." It was years before I realized how inappropriate that was.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
quote:I'm going to argue that, outside of a fairly narrow range, the "variety" in male body types serve to provide the butt of a joke more often than not.
While this is true, I don't think it's nearly as true for men as it is for women.
Non-perfect female body types are rarely even seen in the media. I'm not sure if it would be better if we could laugh at ourselves or not. I mean, you have a few real characters out there that will laugh at themselves and let us laugh alongside them...
I don't now. It's not a contest. I really do think women are judged more for their looks than men are, although I accept that we all get judged for our looks. For men the worst thing is probably being short, I think.
If it helps, I'm not fond of Ken, either. I always thought he was scary looking. Plus, I'm not partial to blond hair on men.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
I played with Barbies. I think most of use played with Barbies. Very few girls who played with Barbies grow up to be anorexic (largely because Barbie playing usually goes out the window long before adolescence when things like anorexia begin).
I think Barbies are far less to blame than Hollywood for any girls who are influenced. Barbie is a toy - Actresses are real. Most teens can figure that one out!
On the other hand, I never was particularly fond of Barbies. They took too much time and effort, and I'd usually get them all out and give up on the dolls halfway through the game and just make up the stories in my head instead. Barbies were just too difficult and stiff to really PLAY with for me. I much preferred stuffed animals and Cabbage Patch Kids. Thus, I've never actually bought a Barbie Doll for any other child, since I never thought they were much fun.
And yet, they're SO much better than those stupid Bratz Dolls. If you want to worry about bad influences....
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yozhik: Our objection to Barbie is that the dolls aren't sturdy enough to survive what my kid will do to them.
There were two Barbies in our church nursery, until Miss Toddler decided to find out if their arms would come off.
They did. All of them. Permanently.
So then there were these pathetic little double amputee Barbies in the nursery, until the new Nursery leader decided to toss them out.
My favorite Barbie was also an amputee. Instead of hard plastic, she was made of soft rubber on a wire "skeleton". My sister chewed her legs off at the knee.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: I'm partially of the mind that girls aren't so amazingly frail that they should not be exposed to dolls with cartoonishly slim body figures that may promote poor self-image. you don't hear parents worried that G.I. Joe's ripped pectorals and muscly arms will give their boys poor body image. They aren't running around trying to find more porky or sinewy action figures to help their boys feel better about themselves. But with the girls, there's always that concern that barbie dolls will make them anorexic or something. It's such a strange divide.
Seems in 1922 nerds everywhere struggled to be more manly. Unfortunately for them, in 1922 none of the staples of nerdism existed. Being a nerd then was terrible indeed.
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: No harm, no foul. She is clearly not human - she's about as effective a role model as a Teletubby .... but Barbie doesn't bother me at all. She's as fantastic as a My Little Pony. I think it is fine.
I agree.
Yet, I have a friend with a 6-year-old daughter who is dead set against them.
I loved them growing up, and while I'd say it's safe to say my own body image and that of other girls could always use improvement, I also had supporting parents who let me know I was loved and accepted without making a big deal about whatever shape I was. They were supportive, too, when I was trying to eat healthier in my mid-twenties, but it wasn't about image, it was about health.
Also going to throw in that my mangled Barbies were the best. I had one that was the victim of our pet rabbit. She lost both her feet, but I sort of made her knew feet out of masking tape and painted them with acryllic craft paint so that she could still wear shoes. The other fav was "Laser Eyed Barbie". It was a Ken doll's head on a Skipper doll's body, and it was the ONLY way my little brother ever interacted with Barbie dolls. He'd come into whatever room a friend and I would have all the dolls and clothes out, and the next thing you knew Laser Eyed Barbie would be crashing the party/wedding/camp out by murdering all attendees with her laser eyes. Heh.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
My almost three year old has no barbies. Tons of polly pockets though- she loves those little dolls. And little people. I won a huge auction on ebay a few years back for very cheap and so she has houses and boats and stables and planes and all sorts of furniture and toys for those. The little people and polly pockets often play together.
I think my reluctance to do barbie dolls comes from childhood traumas. Imagine if you will, a four year old waking up to find all of her barbie dolls decapitated and hanging from their hair around her room. Arms and legs and bodies are scattered all over the floor., some with "blood" from a red marker. And my sister wonders why our relationship was often strained.
Also, barbie was boring. Ooh- I change her outfit (which takes forever and can be difficult sometimes). They were also big and awkward. And they don't stand on their own. Hard to line them up and march them off to war. My little ponies worked well for that. And I seem to think that JI Goe's could ride them (one of the "boy's" toys did fit pretty nicely on them though).
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
I was not allowed to own any Barbies until I was six. After that, I loved making up elaborate stories about them with my sister and my best friend. They were essentially characters in our stories, and they did all sorts of imaginative things. I would say my own body image is fine, but who knows what effect they may have had? I almost think looking at real models and actresses makes me feel more insecure than Barbies ever did. I remember my dad telling me I was prettier than any Barbie, though.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
The Ninja Turtles were perfectly sized to ride My Little Ponies. My little brothers used to steal my Barbies and Ponies and play with them, along with their Turtles.
I was never interested in dressing the Barbies in different clothes. I'd be more likely to take them out in their pink car and roll them down a hill until they crashed. Then they were lost in the wilderness and had to survive. Breyer horses were useful in this game as well. Every one of my horse figures had at least one leg that had broken off and was glued back on.
So anyhow, given that my 5 year old daughter has a similar personality to me, I don't worry about her getting the occasional Barbie. It's not something I would buy myself, but I don't care if others buy them (as long as they're reasonably dressed).
--Mel
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
quote:Originally posted by andi330: I have to point out that this is fundamentally untrue. There are many, many men in this world who will never have a body like GI Joe, no matter how many weights they lift or how hard they work out. My brother is one of those men. Not that he can't be fit and muscular, but he has a wiry build and will never be able to bulk to GI Joe standards
How old is your brother, how many hours per day does he work out, and what sort of exercises does he do?
I didn't say it was easy for any healthy man to achieve such a physique, or even worthwhile, but I still think it's possible. I think if your brother got with a personal trainer, started doing varied exercises, weights, and switched up reps to maximize muscle confusion, and worked out 3 or 4 hours a day, he could probably look like G.I. Joe in 3 years.
Other men just get that build naturally - I've got a friend like that who works out maybe an hour a day, and does mostly crunches/pushups/pullups at that.
But I say this because one of the guys I mentioned (the school teacher) was very skinny growing up, and never put on muscle. He actually spends quite a bit of time planning his workouts and meals, takes 2 different protein supplements, and is quite dedicated to his body building. He treats it like a science, researching which exercises to do, and how to pair them with other exercises to optimize muscle growth.
But all that's moot, since the sinewy-yet-strong body type is a well respected alternative to the G.I. Joe look. Just look at all the girls who enjoyed LotR because of this guy.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
*sigh* I was hoping for Aragorn.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
I'm sure he got some lovin too. (from old women, that is!)
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Hey!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I'm not a big fan of Barbie, and I certainly wouldn't pay money for one, but I feel no need to ban it from our house.
While I used to be more negative about them, this is where I eventually got to as well.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I'm not a big fan of Barbie, and I certainly wouldn't pay money for one, but I feel no need to ban it from our house.
While I used to be more negative about them, this is where I eventually got to as well.
I'll probably go this way as well.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I'm not a big fan of Barbie, and I certainly wouldn't pay money for one, but I feel no need to ban it from our house.
While I used to be more negative about them, this is where I eventually got to as well.
That's probably the most sensible approach, really.
I'm still pawning this one off at Toys for Tots. Mine is still too young for it and hasn't completely stopped putting things in her mouth. I don't see any reason to save this for when she's old enough, especially since there are other kids who could use some presents.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
We don't allow any fashion dolls, even the "little kid" fashion dolls, in our house. Period. We allow baby dolls of all shapes and sizes and colors and attire (well, probably not a Bratz Babiez wearing a thong...) because they are dolls that you take care of. The whole point of fashion dolls is to dress them up in fashionable clothes. We are not into that. Plus they have lots of little pieces that get lost and we have enough other toys with lost pieces.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
Barbie was beefed up a few years ago. The Barbie of my childhood had a figure equivalent to what resulted in Chinese foot binding. Her figure now could at least be possible, although not common. Especially in a nation that has our obesity rate. As with anything, we should aim for the middle ground thus represent the average. Barbie should be a bit chunky, like the kids who play with her.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Hmm, I never thought about that KQ. I always thought Barbies were for playing with sorta like Action Figures for girls. Maybe that's why they never worked well in my play, I wasn't doing it right!
Do other little girls really sit there and just dress them up and change their clothes? That doesn't seem like much fun at all. Is that really what they're for? (I'm asking this seriously, because that never occurred to me before!).
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
Mattel just needs to be more diverse. If I were the CEO of Mattel, I would make slim, chunky and obese barbies...let the parent choose. Not really different than their decision to begin making ethnic Barbies. Unfortunately, the Morbidly Obese Barbie probably wouldn't be a big seller.
I worry less about Barbie than what my daughter watches on television.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: I'm still pawning this one off at Toys for Tots. Mine is still too young for it and hasn't completely stopped putting things in her mouth. I don't see any reason to save this for when she's old enough, especially since there are other kids who could use some presents.
Makes perfect sense to me.
quote:Originally posted by DDDaysh: Do other little girls really sit there and just dress them up and change their clothes? That doesn't seem like much fun at all. Is that really what they're for? (I'm asking this seriously, because that never occurred to me before!).
That and play house with them, pretty much.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
My daughter is bugging me to remove her barbie ceiling border and is obsessed with Mustang's. Despite the fact that we treated her and surrounded her with girlie-girl things, she is a Tom-Boy. Go with the flow and let your child be who she is. If she wants a barbie or a crescent wrench, does it matter? Mine once was obsessed with Barbies, now she hates to wear dresses. I don't think a toy can influence a child's development unless that is the only toy the parent lets them have.
My girl asks me why she is left handed. I tell her, we let her choose. How many parents still influences left/right dominance without even realizing it?
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
When I was a kid, my mom gave me a box of her used Barbie Dolls from her childhood. I remember loving their "harsh" looking makeup and dark hair.
I had one blonde barbie who pretty much spent her entire life in a blue tu-tu. I went through a ballerina stage and used to have her put on productions for my audience of stuff animals. Eventually, I got a Rollerblading Ken but he disappeared after my brothers succeeded in setting the carpet on fire with his light-up skates. And I had the bust used for hairstyling but after I gave her a short hacked pixie haircut, she lost all of her fun.
My mother never gave into my requests for the Dream Car or any of the huge accessories. And that was the responsible call for her to make. A few years ago she revealed her rule for Barbie outfits which was "If my daughter couldn't wear it, then Barbie can't." So I had alot of jeans and dresses for my Barbie, but nothing revealing or trendy. My favorite outfits were the costume ones anyway. Barbie was a way for me to play at being a ballerina or a teacher or a Indian or a mermaid, etc.
But its been awhile since my age was in single-digits so I don't even know Barbie has fun outfits anymore or if its all about "fashion" and all of that nonsense.
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
My sister and I played with Barbies, too. We lived in a small town and there was a lady who sewed Barbie clothes and they were sold at the local hardware store. So I had cool homemade clothes for my Barbies.
An egg carton made a good Barbie bed. We had a sort of wash tub that we used for a Barbie pool in the back yard, filled with water from the pump.
Now I play Sims 3. (Kind of like Barbies for grownups )
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by DDDaysh: Hmm, I never thought about that KQ. I always thought Barbies were for playing with sorta like Action Figures for girls. Maybe that's why they never worked well in my play, I wasn't doing it right!
Do other little girls really sit there and just dress them up and change their clothes? That doesn't seem like much fun at all. Is that really what they're for? (I'm asking this seriously, because that never occurred to me before!).
When I went to my friend's house and played Barbies (she had a ton-- fashion dolls weren't allowed in my house either as a general rule growing up) we changed their clothes so they could: -go on dates with Ken -go to parties with the other Barbies -have sleepovers with the other Barbies -drive cars and do "teenage stuff"
That was pretty much it.
I'd much rather have my little girls practice changing diapers and feeding bottles (though actually, usually their "babies" get sippy cups or are "breastfed"-- they only get the occasional bottle, when with the "babysitter") than going to parties and on dates. There'll be enough of that in their teenage years for my tastes. I think the diapers will be more useful in the long term.
(I was once given a Skipper by someone who didn't know my mom's rule, for my birthday. I had it open before my mom knew so I was allowed to keep it. However because I had no other similarly sized dolls for, you know, going on dates and to parties with, she first was beheaded as Mary Queen of Scots, then we lit her hair on fire when we read about chemical chromotography. Then my mom took her away.)
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
There are other dolls my wife refuses to buy for our daughter...can't remember the name. They are hooochie momma looking dolls. Barbie might be thin, but the the options are trendy hoes.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Mattel just needs to be more diverse. If I were the CEO of Mattel, I would make slim, chunky and obese barbies...let the parent choose. Not really different than their decision to begin making ethnic Barbies. Unfortunately, the Morbidly Obese Barbie probably wouldn't be a big seller.
I wouldn't buy an obese doll, but I could see buying a chubby one.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: There are other dolls my wife refuses to buy for our daughter...can't remember the name. They are hooochie momma looking dolls. Barbie might be thin, but the the options are trendy hoes.
I refuse Bratz. Those fit what you are describing.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I actually like the fashion doll idea. Like anything it can get out of hand, but learning how to be well-groomed is vital life skill. It would be nice if it never mattered how one looked, but I'd rather my (theoretical) kids prepared for the world they have to live in that the one I might wish for.
Not teaching them how to be well groomed is like not teaching them how to handle money. It would be great if money didn't have to exist, but since it does, I'd rather not confine them to a lifetime of poverty and crappy personal finances by pretending it doesn't.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
When I was kid, Barbies were our avatars for two kinds of games.
1. Roll playing games that generally centered on dating and other aspects of young adult social life. That might also involve "playing house", but more commonly we played carefree young adults with the Barbies.
2. Dress Up. Unless you happen to have access to an elaborate costume closet, its a lot easier to play dress up with Barbies. At one point, when we were learning to sew, my sister and I designed and made dozens of Barbie costumes. We even started a little business selling them.
Both those games involved in part, imagining that we were grown up, beautiful and glamorous. Barbies seemed pretty and glamorous, even though we'd make fun of how unrealistic they were at times. I'm pretty confident that Barbies had little influence on what we though was beautiful and glamorous, they simply conformed to ideas we already had. If you look at Barbies over the years, its clear they have changed with changing fashions. If Barbie had been chubby,I doubt we would have had much interest in playing with them.
I really don't think Barbies are a cause of anything. I don't think they even contribute in particular to poor body image or obsessive concern about clothes and boys. They are made to appeal to girls who are already concerned about those things and changing Barbie isn't going to make those concerns disappear.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: 2. Dress Up. Unless you happen to have access to an elaborate costume closet, its a lot easier to play dress up with Barbies. At one point, when we were learning to sew, my sister and I designed and made dozens of Barbie costumes. We even started a little business selling them.
I recommend providing children with an aunt that is in theatre and who also raids second hand shops for bridesmaid and prom dresses so that they always have excellent dress up clothes. My nieces and nephews were well supplied. Also, cheap costume jewelry and Mardi Gras beads make great "treasure" for princesses and pirates and dragons.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: 2. Dress Up. Unless you happen to have access to an elaborate costume closet, its a lot easier to play dress up with Barbies. At one point, when we were learning to sew, my sister and I designed and made dozens of Barbie costumes. We even started a little business selling them.
I recommend providing children with an aunt that is in theatre and who also raids second hand shops for bridesmaid and prom dresses so that they always have excellent dress up clothes. My nieces and nephews were well supplied. Also, cheap costume jewelry and Mardi Gras beads make great "treasure" for princesses and pirates and dragons.
How do you recommend one go about providing children with an aunt who is in theatre?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: 2. Dress Up. Unless you happen to have access to an elaborate costume closet, its a lot easier to play dress up with Barbies. At one point, when we were learning to sew, my sister and I designed and made dozens of Barbie costumes. We even started a little business selling them.
I recommend providing children with an aunt that is in theatre and who also raids second hand shops for bridesmaid and prom dresses so that they always have excellent dress up clothes. My nieces and nephews were well supplied. Also, cheap costume jewelry and Mardi Gras beads make great "treasure" for princesses and pirates and dragons.
How do you recommend one go about providing children with an aunt who is in theatre?
Shouldn't be hard, I find all girls to be somewhat trained in theatrics.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
But it isn't the "theatrics" that are important, its the well stocked costume closet.
Did you think about this before you selected your wife? Did you check to make sure someone in her family was collecting and hoarding dress up clothes for your kids? If not, you best make sure any unmarried brothers, marry women with a good costume closet or you will be stuck yourself with providing a proper dress up wardrobe for your daughter.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote:But its been awhile since my age was in single-digits so I don't even know Barbie has fun outfits anymore or if its all about "fashion" and all of that nonsense.
My niece (aged 4) LOVES Barbie and has many fun outfits for Barbie. While she'll dress her Barbies up and play house, I haven't noticed any difference in the way she plays with Barbie and the way she plays with other adult dolls/ figurines. They're just another way to play pretend.
My niece also loves Barbie movies. I reluctantly watched a few and was shocked by their quality. They're not Disney, but they're far better than most kids' movies.
If your kid has a personality that likes barbies, I don't see a reason to fight it.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: 2. Dress Up. Unless you happen to have access to an elaborate costume closet, its a lot easier to play dress up with Barbies. At one point, when we were learning to sew, my sister and I designed and made dozens of Barbie costumes. We even started a little business selling them.
I recommend providing children with an aunt that is in theatre and who also raids second hand shops for bridesmaid and prom dresses so that they always have excellent dress up clothes. My nieces and nephews were well supplied. Also, cheap costume jewelry and Mardi Gras beads make great "treasure" for princesses and pirates and dragons.
How do you recommend one go about providing children with an aunt who is in theatre?
I rent out.
I suppose it doesn't have to be an aunt. Really, the best stuff I found was from thrift stores and anyone can do that.
When I was a little girl I was deprived as all I had was my Mom's avocado green linen bridesmaid dress. It was very sad. I made sure that my nieces had satins and sequins and velvet (all on the cheap). From there it was easy to add capes and crowns and plastic swords and hats and badges and masks...
They would spend hours and hours making up stories.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: But it isn't the "theatrics" that are important, its the well stocked costume closet.
Did you think about this before you selected your wife? Did you check to make sure someone in her family was collecting and hoarding dress up clothes for your kids? If not, you best make sure any unmarried brothers, marry women with a good costume closet or you will be stuck yourself with providing a proper dress up wardrobe for your daughter.
Hmf! I thought I was being quite clever.
Besides, most of the women I have seen have an overabundance of costumes.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I am all for glamourous dress-up with thrift-store prom dresses. However, the thrift-store prom dresses we provide for playing dress-up fit our standards of modesty.
I agree that learning to be well-groomed is an important part of living in society. I also think that well-groomed does not have to mean "in the height of fashion" or even vaguely fashionable. I want my girls to learn to pick modest clothes that they feel both comfortable and attractive in, without regard to where it was bought, brand name, or what is in style. I don't feel Barbie facilitates this.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
One added benefit of buying thrift store dress up clothes was the barely restrained consternation of the salesperson as I was buying dresses that were quite clearly not going to fit me. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Hmf! I thought I was being quite clever.
I thought the irony of perpetuating insulting gender stereotypes in this particular thread was almost painful.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Hmf! I thought I was being quite clever.
Besides, most of the women I have seen have an overabundance of costumes.
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: I agree that learning to be well-groomed is an important part of living in society. I also think that well-groomed does not have to mean "in the height of fashion" or even vaguely fashionable. I want my girls to learn to pick modest clothes that they feel both comfortable and attractive in, without regard to where it was bought, brand name, or what is in style. I don't feel Barbie facilitates this.
I definitely agree that learning to be well-groomed is not the same as being fashion-crazy and I think Barbie tends toward the fashion-crazy.
I'd like to teach my kids to see beyond label and current style, but I made a recent discover that is going to hurt these prospects -- I discovered that I like costly, fashionable clothing! I don't really look at brand name and have never bought an item of clothing for a label but I there is a big difference between a $30 pair of jeans and a $100 pair of jeans -- and it's not the name on the butt. (There might be a difference between that and $200 pairs of jeans, too, but my budget won't let me find out.)
For a little extra money, too, I find shirts that fit well and comfortably without clinging...this makes me feel more attractive and confident.
As far as modest goes, the most immodest shirts I see are that way because they just plain don't fit properly or are made of material that clings in all the wrong places.
I'm not sure where I fall on the modesty issue. I like wearing clothes that make me feel a little sexy. I'm sure there's a line, though, and that my daughter will push it when she's a teenager. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Hmf! I thought I was being quite clever.
I thought the irony of perpetuating insulting gender stereotypes in this particular thread was almost painful.
Agreed. Only omit "almost".
Posted by Ace of Spades (Member # 2256) on :
How about perpetuating ethnic stereotypes?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
You know that's a joke, right?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Hmf! I thought I was being quite clever.
I thought the irony of perpetuating insulting gender stereotypes in this particular thread was almost painful.
I tend to invoke your ire more often than I'm happy about. I confess I did miss the irony.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
I don't know Christine. Granted most of my clothes shopping is done at discount stores or JC Penny, but I don't think that modesty is all about clinging in the wrong places.
I am SO glad to have a little boy. When I shop for my cousin or other little girls I am shocked at how most of the clothes look - even on the hanger! You have clothes in toddler sizes that seem like they belong in a red blind district somewhere, and that's when they're on the hanger! So much of what I see for girls that are around my son's age looks like it was designed expressly for Kiddie Porn.
But perhaps that is because I shop in the wrong places. I do have one little cousin who always looks like a porcelain doll in clothes that are both modest and exquisite. Her mom must get them somewhere. What amazes me is that she manages to keep them in such pristine condition.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
Mattel is marketing to everyone. They have the Burka Barbie.
I prefer the message skinny Barbie sends over the Burka Barbie.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
As best I have been able to determine, Burka Barbie is a myth. Well not exactly a myth, just not something that is being mass produced and marketed by Mattel. Burka Barbie was part of an exhibition by an Italian designer and was auctioned for charity. While the exhibition was sponsored by Mattel, that is still quite different from this being a Mattel product.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by DDDaysh: I don't know Christine. Granted most of my clothes shopping is done at discount stores or JC Penny, but I don't think that modesty is all about clinging in the wrong places.
I am SO glad to have a little boy. When I shop for my cousin or other little girls I am shocked at how most of the clothes look - even on the hanger! You have clothes in toddler sizes that seem like they belong in a red blind district somewhere, and that's when they're on the hanger! So much of what I see for girls that are around my son's age looks like it was designed expressly for Kiddie Porn.
But perhaps that is because I shop in the wrong places. I do have one little cousin who always looks like a porcelain doll in clothes that are both modest and exquisite. Her mom must get them somewhere. What amazes me is that she manages to keep them in such pristine condition.
Well, here's the thing about the clingy clothes -- I like to look a little sexy. (My husband appreciates this, too. ) I want clothes that hug my curves and emphasize my hourglass figure. When the weather is nice, I like my clothing to be low cut. This may not fit your definition of modest...I've noticed that there is a wide range of ways to define that word...but when it comes to that kind of clothing I find that fit matters big time. The wrong fit will show more cleavage than you intend, or ride up in the back when you sit down, or huge your ribcage so tightly you can't breathe, or slide off your shoulder so your bra strap is showing (I have a thing about visible bra straps).
As far as inappropriate little girl's clothing goes -- I've seen some of it but not that much. I love dressing my little girl and think there's a lot of very adorable stuff for her. Or maybe it's in the little girl's section, I'm still shopping baby/toddler. We have a Carter's and a Children's Place outlet store a few minutes from here where I get all my kid's clothing and they have very nice stuff.
ETA: Huh. Well, my husband just told me that if you go to a place like Wal-Mart (which I almost never visit if I can avoid it), they have a lot of the kinds of little girl's clothing you're talking about. The places I shop do take inspiration from current adult fashion, but they make it look very childlike and pretty. I don't like the porcelain doll look, actually, although I'd love to know how she keeps the clothes looking so nice!
[ December 19, 2009, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Christine ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
My favourite dress-up games didn't involve being a princess but being a "poor person". By this I meant a Victorian-era poor person (the same way the stereotypical princess matches an old fashioned fantasy).
quote:I do have one little cousin who always looks like a porcelain doll in clothes that are both modest and exquisite.
Why would you want your daughter to look like a porcelain doll who is most modest and exquisite? I would find that more damaging than having a child who plays with Barbies.
I think most children under the age of five or six inherently care very little about what they wear. Emphasizing care, shame or fear in any respect towards clothes is the only thing that will teach them to think the same way. If you dress your child like a doll, modestly or immodestly, and then teach her to keep herself neat and tidy, or pay attention to how her clothes look on herself, she will be more likely to pay attention to the way she looks rather than, say, being concerned about other things. Little people pick this stuff up just from the way you react to them in a little poofy dress or a little shirt or whatever.
If you're emphasizing how adorable your son or daughter look in certain clothes, they're likely going to pick that up-- girls perhaps more than boys.
I'm biased because I wore a mishmash of skirts and my brother's clothes when I was a little girl, and a skirted school uniform until I was nearly 10. But I climbed trees and played soccer and any comments my parents made about my clothes that I remember were about the clothes and not about me in them. I never felt defined by my clothes at all until I forced myself to be.
I don't have poor body image. In fact, my mother has actually said a number of times that she wished I was more worried about certain aspects of the way I looked (and perhaps it would be better if I were). It certainly was an uphill battle about figuring out how to dress during high school and university-- after having almost no instruction, implicit or explicit. I still dress very simply.
So I think there's a happy medium of implicit and explicit dress instruction. You want your children to fit in and look respectable, but at the same time you want them to not be defined by how they look. My parents are getting better at this with my younger sisters, who are much better dressed than I ever was!
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote: I think most children under the age of five or six inherently care very little about what they wear. . . . If you're emphasizing how adorable your son or daughter look in certain clothes, they're likely going to pick that up-- girls perhaps more than boys.
I'm guessing you've had very little dealing with children under 5 or six. In my experience, most children, although girls more so than boys, start expressing strong opinions about what they wear pretty much as soon as they are able (maybe 18 months - 2 years). Those opinions are often diametrically opposed to their parents taste.
For example, one SIL of mine was really anti pink. She refused to dress my niece in anything pink. About age 2, guess what color my niece started insisting on wearing. She had only one pink skirt, a gift from someone, and she insisted on wearing it every day. When they came to visit Grandma on vacation, my SIL didn't pack the pink skirt. My niece was so upset about it that grandma sewed her several pink skirts to wear. I've also known little boys who insistent about wearing a favorite shirt even if it was dirty and other kids who insisted on wearing things that adults thought were horribly mismatched. Some kids are even picky about their underpants and socks.
Certainly not every child cares about their clothes, not every adult cares about clothes either. But lots and lots of very small children have strong opinions about their clothes which they did not learn from adults.
[ December 19, 2009, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I don't know about the diametrically opposite tastes thing...it sounds like your niece just really liked the color pink and your SIL didn't...but yeah, my kids do care about what they wear, even my 1-year-old. My son doesn't care as much and it took him longer to care, but if it takes me too long to do the laundry he'll start asking after his Thomas the train shirt. He has certain color preferences and he likes shirts with stripes.
My daughter likes to be allowed to pick her own clothing out of her drawer and she's already trying to dress herself (she can get her pants on about half the time).
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Lego wore his orange shirt with a pumpkin on it at least once a week throughout the winter when he was under two years old. Yes, it was a Halloween shirt. No, I didn't put it away. He loved it.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:I don't know about the diametrically opposite tastes thing...it sounds like your niece just really liked the color pink and your SIL didn't.
It wasn't just pink. My niece really likes frilly, stereotypical hyper feminine clothes, and her mother really dislikes them. I'm not claiming its the rule, I'm just saying that at least some 1 and 2 year olds have tastes in clothing that are very different from their parents. Kids really do seem to come preprogrammed with a lot of personality. The only people who really question that are people who have very little experience with young children.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:I'm guessing you've had very little dealing with children under 5 or six. In my experience, most children, although girls more so than boys, start expressing strong opinions about what they wear pretty much as soon as they are able (maybe 18 months - 2 years). Those opinions are often diametrically opposed to their parents taste.
On the contrary, I've had quite a lot of dealings with children under the age of six. Let me explain myself more clearly, since I am now aware I didn't make the correct distinction:
Kids with no contact with other kids are not going to care what is fashionable, or matching, or neat, or socially acceptable. More clearly: They may care about the clothes they wear, but not usually how they look in them.
It is adults who care how their children look. I don't see any reason to prevent a child from wearing pink if she or he wants. In fact, making less of a fuss is probably better.
In my experience of working with children and the accompanying parent, the parents' attitude towards clothes is reflected in their children's. Neatly, fashionably dressed parents most often have impeccably dressed, fashionable children. Parents who when they drop their kids off are dressed in a t-shirt and jeans have children who are dressed in a t-shirt and jeans.
This isn't to say that within a kid's wardrobe a kid won't have favourites, especially as regarding colour and pictures. That is not what I meant. What I mean is that they don't usually care about the form of those clothes unless they are made aware.
quote:other kids who insisted on wearing things that adults thought were horribly mismatched.
This supports my point. Kids don't care that their clothes don't match or look good because they don't have any socially constructed notions as to what that means. They learn these by the reaction they get: if people make a fuss about how cute they look in froofy dresses, or associate positive traits with the Disney Princess model, they will learn to like their look in froofy dresses.
Otherwise, at this young age, they will do kooky and/or dirty and/or mismatched and/or inappropriate clothes, because they, individually, love them-- not because they necessarily love that it makes them look neat, or fashionable.
Obviously, the parents are in charge and can ensure that clean-or-cleanish-clothes-every-day is a convention that is taught, for example. If your Sister-in-Law was really opposed to pink, there's nothing saying she can't just ignore her two year old's daughters wishes, fuss or not. Her daughter would have got over it.
In the same way, Brinestone could have put her son's pumpkin shirt away, if she had wanted to, because it was seasonally inappropriate. Her son might have asked about it, but if she had really been opposed, she could have done it. If it had become badly ripped or dramatically too small she would have put it away and felt firm about it because there would have been less question about him wearing it. Any tears would have been waited away. Not that she should have, but she could have.
What is more crucial is past that age of six or so, now that the child is becoming more aware of social conventions (e.g. we don't wear dirty clothes to school). Is your child now fashion-conscious? Is he or she concerned about he or she is matching? Does he or she look in the mirror every morning or are you the one making sure her hair isn't a haystack?
The parent shapes these things. Young children are, in reality, small and malleable and impressionable. If you check the mirror and make a big show, your child will too, perhaps rather earlier than you wanted her to. If you keep your (necessary) clothes-obsession on the down-low, your child will not be so obsessed unless she or he spends a lot of time with people who are (e.g. at daycare, nursery school, kindergarten).
I'm not just making this up. I've seen dozens (probably over a hundred) pairs of children and parents and dress sense and fashionableness is conveyed.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: Kids really do seem to come preprogrammed with a lot of personality. The only people who really question that are people who have very little experience with young children.
It drives me crazy when people throw all my experience like this out! I'm not a parent, no, but I am a much older sister, first of all. All but one of my jobs ever has involved children, mostly of quite a young age. I've seen galumphs of parents and children, as well as having being quite involved with my youngest sister's earliest years. On top of that, my mother is an early childhood educator and so I've been exposed extensively to her ideas as well as my own. I am now training to be a teacher. I've spent so many hours of my life with so many children in seven different settings. I cannot be dismissed because I am not a parent myself. That is ludicrous.
I don't deny that little girls like pink and frilly clothes, but the frillyness, particularly, is a socially learned phenomenon. On top of that, this phase of frillyness seems to focus on a certain age: from age 2 to 6, perhaps.
I can't get rid of the evidence of my own eyes. When I was about five, my mother made me a dress with puffy sleeves. I chose the material: it was pink flowers with green leaves on white. It was girly. I still have it.
But the reality was although I wore this dress, no fuss was ever made over it. My keeping it clean and being a Disneyesque princess in it was never emphasized (also, this was England so that Disney Princess Girlyness wasn't quite the same; princess meant something slightly different). I had the same predelictions as any small girl but past that crucial age of around six or seven, I began to adapt to being a more expressed personality rather than being a little girl. Now, my parents attitudes towards clothes-- simple, sensible, unimportant-- began to pay off.
I've watched both my younger sisters go through this process.
It is the attitude of the parent towards clothes or the clothes of their children that makes the lasting impression. I suspect that given a few years, provided this battle of clothes doesn't become a thing, this overexpressed girlyness will fade to be replaced with something more akin to the parent's attitudes.
Stop dismissing me!
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I'm sorry if it seems I'm dismissing you Teshi, but your experience is simply quite contrary to my own.
Young children I have known often have preferences about the clothes they wear that they do not seem to learn from adults around them.
This, for example,
quote:I don't deny that little girls like pink and frilly clothes, but the frillyness, particularly, is a socially learned phenomenon. On top of that, this phase of frillyness seems to focus on a certain age: from age 2 to 6, perhaps.
It is simply counter to my experience. Lots of little girls like pink frilly clothes, lots do not. I have observed very little correlation between the girls preferences and what their parents and other children around them like. I've have quite a few friends who were utterly shocked by their young daughters preferences in clothing. In my experience, little girls preferences are simply not easily explained by socialization. Without correlation, causation is extraordinarily unlikely.
I'm not ignoring you. I'm trying to find an explanation for how you could come to believe something that is so completely contrary to my own experience.
I remember lots of things from my early childhood including some of the clothes I had. I don't remember anyone ever making a fuss over anything I wore as a child. I have 5 younger siblings. I don't remember adults making a fuss over anything they wore as children either. I don't remember getting any specific guidance about how I dressed beyond being occasionally told to put on something clean before going somewhere or asked to take off my newest dress before playing in the dirt. My mother pretty much catered to whatever fashions we liked, although she would occasional admit she thought the current trends we loved were awful.
As an adult, I like clothes but I have pretty diverse taste. I have things that are tailored and professional, things that are glamorous and feminine, things that are plain and practical, things that are wild and off the wall, I have some "western" clothes and some "hippy" clothes, some asian clothes, some folk costumes from various countries, some off the wall modern fashions. I like variety. My wardrobe choices confuse a lot of people. I think I still like to play dress up. That isn't something I learned from anyone. In fact, I can't think of anyone who shares my really diverse tastes in clothing.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I'm honestly not sure what you two are arguing about....seems like the old nature vs. nurture thing.
Do parents influence their children's taste ni clothing? Well, yeah. Parents influence children, the same sex parent most of all.
Do children have their own opinions despite this? Well, yeah. They come with their own personalities and preferences that do not always match their parents. In fact, some personalities will be more prone than others to specifically go against their parents' wishes, whatever they are, but then, they're still being equally influenced by nature and nurture even in that case. Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Teshi- my child started caring a good deal about what clothes he wore long before he started having friends. He liked certain characters or the way certain clothes felt. None of that was put into his head by other kids.
And, for the record, it's my cousin who looks like a porcelain doll. She is only 4, but is so petite and perfect you almost don't think she's real! She is a real kid though. She runs and plays and since she has 3 older brothers, I'm pretty sure she gets to be a tom boy pretty often. That's why it's even more amazing that she always looks the ways she does. The child could probably win a beauty pageant without trying! (Though, thank GOD her parents aren't into that kind of stuff).
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Christine, I'm in full agreement. Peoples taste in clothing is influenced by both nature and nurture. My only objection was to Teshi's assertion that young children didn't care about clothing until they were taught to care. That simply isn't true of the many children I've known.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Teshi's reasoning really resonates with me. I have not seen small children care about fashion, or how other people are likely to perceive their clothes, unless their parents (really, their mothers - I am only talking about my experience here) - instill that particular value.
Getting enamored with certain clothing or colors is not quite the same thing. Teshi already explained why; let me add that the concerns about social significance of clothing can be applied at the same time or completely without an individual preference for a certain look. It can be an independent variable.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: I don't remember getting any specific guidance about how I dressed beyond being occasionally told to put on something clean before going somewhere or asked to take off my newest dress before playing in the dirt.
...
My mother pretty much catered to whatever fashions we liked...
...
My wardrobe choices confuse a lot of people. I think I still like to play dress up. That isn't something I learned from anyone. In fact, I can't think of anyone who shares my really diverse tastes in clothing.
I would think these things are related. Of course, there's your personality involved in this, but if your mother gave you flexibility when you were a little person to wear whatever and never made a fuss one way or the other, that explains why you like wear a variety of clothes. You have no special likes or dislikes because you have few associations that some are positive and some not. They have different uses, but not negative and positive associations.
quote:My only objection was to Teshi's assertion that young children didn't care about clothing until they were taught to care. That simply isn't true of the many children I've known.
I hope it is clear now that I didn't quite mean that. Children care about clothing the same way children care strongly about pretty much everything. It's what they care about that is different.
quote:I'm not ignoring you. I'm trying to find an explanation for how you could come to believe something that is so completely contrary to my own experience.
Well, my experience is real. Perhaps it's even the same experience, just interpreted from the opposite way. I don't expect parents to influence away their child's individuality, but I do see evidence that the parent is responsible for most of the way a young child thinks and behaves.
I think as children we have a tendency to blame our negative attributes on our parents, and parents have a tendency to blame their child's negative traits on just-the-way-the-child-is. Obviously, there's a happy medium.
My mother describes parenting as taking a crazy, weird little person with strongly expressed personality traits (e.g. introversion, frivolity, interest in clothes, lack of interest in clothes, poor behaviour control, poor concentration etc.) and then you have to drag this child back from strange-land into the realm of the socialized or semi-socialized.
I don't remember if you have children, Rabbit, but if you did/do, I'm pretty convinced that they would follow a kind of your version of fashion. You would probably buy them a mishmash of clothes, and not preference the frilly over the plain or the blue over the pink. Some of your children, depending on their personalities, would be more fashion-conscious. Others would be less fashion-conscious. But all would exhibit a kind of Rabbitness about the way they approach fashion: they might not preference one "look" over another, they might have kooky style. They probably wouldn't become dedicated followers of one fashion.
In the same way, if you are a scientist and you make some effort to involve your children in your science (e.g. telling them scientific things in a casual, interesting way), you may not necessarily breed scientists but you will probably end up with people with some interest in the sciences.
The same goes for museums, and history, and music, and art and everything! Parents don't end up with clones of themselves, but they can convey attitudes, especially positive ones. (That is, I suspect it is more rare to have a parent who loves science and a child who rejects it than the other way around.)
Parents don't even have to be active role models. They can be passive-- providing they are consistent-- and still have an effect. Teachers can do this too: simply by standing silently and respectfully during a national anthem, for example, teachers can convey to most children that this is proper, socialized behaviour.
Perhaps the way to describe this is that parents don't usually pass the details of personality to their children, but they do seem to pass many attitudes towards things, especially positive ones that are reinforced outside the home.
If children see their parents drinking responsibly all the time, they are more likely to drink responsibly. They may choose to drink not at all, or drink less than their peers, or simply take a more adult approach with regards to health and safety concerning adult. This is something that is reinforced outside the home as a positive (e.g. at school, on children's T.V.)
The children of parents who drink irresponsibly or do not drink at all either have a poor role model or none at all when it comes to alcohol. They have a higher rate of alcoholic abuse and issues. But not all of them do, because there are lots of other messages coming at them about safe use of alcohol.
To me, this parent-child relationship seems fairly clear. We all know that we had to battle against our parents shortcomings as young adults and we continue to battle for the rest of our lives.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:I would think these things are related. Of course, there's your personality involved in this, but if your mother gave you flexibility when you were a little person to wear whatever and never made a fuss one way or the other, that explains why you like wear a variety of clothes.
If this hypothesis were accurate, one would anticipate that at least some of my 6 brothers and sisters would have similarly diverse tastes in clothing. Since they do not, it seems highly improbably that parental influences are all that important in my case.
quote:You have no special likes or dislikes because you have few associations that some are positive and some not. They have different uses, but not negative and positive associations.[
You've completely misunderstood what I said about my taste in clothing. I have very strong likes and dislikes. Its just that what I like (or dislike) isn't defined by or limited to particular fashion genres. The fact that my tastes are diverse does not in any way imply that my preferences are not strong. They are.
You are trying to hard to force people to fit your theory, some people likely do but many do not.
I think that by age 10 or so, most peoples taste and interest in clothing is far more influenced by their peers than their parents. By the time kids reach their early teens, those who are more socially astute, tend to be more fashion conscious and generally concerned with grooming. Those who are more awkward socially, are typically much less concerned with fashion and appearance as well. By the time kids reach high school, almost all dress to match their social circle.
In addition to having a diverse wardrobe, I do have a pretty diverse assortment of friends so I may also simply be choosing my clothes to match my social circle. But at the same time, I rarely dress to match the friends I'm with. Perhaps It's simple vanity, but I do think the diversity of my friends and clothes is a reflection of personality and a generally love for diversity rather than one causing the other.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:I think most children under the age of five or six inherently care very little about what they wear.
Well, that has most decidedly not been my experience with my girls. They have very marked preferences from, as was said, about 18 months on. (I would prefer a lot less pink than they choose to wear. I would prefer a lot less "beautiful" outfits than they choose to wear. But I let them choose and don't make judgements on their choices. My only rules are that their clothes must meet our standards of modesty; must not be wildly inappropriate in size or for the weather; must not be filthy dirty; if they are going to church, a wedding, or somewhere else where more stringent dress standards apply, they must select from a pre-approved choice of outfits, and I have veto power over any accessories they desire to wear.)
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Out of curiosity, does anyone else have a child attached to an inappropriate fashion accessory?
When my child was 3, he was attached to an umbrella (in a drought I might add!), but he finally grew out of that. For the last several months though, it's been gloves! We live in South Texas and I have the only child going into Kindergarten wearing gloves. His teacher also has trouble getting him to take his jacket off in the classroom. My poor son, he so desperately wants to live in a more northern climate!
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
My own experience is also contrary to Teshi's. I desperately wanted to wear pretty, frilly clothes so that I would be pretty when I was very young. My mother had other ideas for me and she and my grandmother made most of our clothes. I know that having to wear browns and greens "tailored" pinafores and having a short haircut still bothers me 40-some years later. I reveled in frilly nightgowns when I could.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote:I have not seen small children care about fashion, or how other people are likely to perceive their clothes, unless their parents (really, their mothers - I am only talking about my experience here) - instill that particular value.
My niece is four and she seems to highly value fashion. She loves picking out outfits, she begs to go shopping, and regularly compliments people on their clothing. Neither my sister or her husband place much value in that. They hate clothes shopping, are jeans and t-shirt people, and are perplexed by their daughter.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
I love the fact that my daughter isn't a girly-girl. She has her own style...hates pink and asked for black converse all-stars for christmas. She has a Barbie Princess border around the ceiling of her room that she has been bugging me to replace (the same border she begged me for years ago). I let her be who she is at the time. If the parents are strong and involved, marketing will have little influence on the child's long term development. The boy who's hero is an imaginary character is lacking a father figure. My kids idolize me and still think I'm the strongest man in the world...I know eventually, this perception will change.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I just found out there's a Three Musketeers Barbie. I am not sure what to think about that.
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